Novak's brushless system ESC relibility question

[superben]

Just read the 7/03 RCCA article about the bushless system, it seems perfect for my lazy habit of not having to do any maintenance. However, i notice the temp. of the ESC is almost 100F higher than the conventional ESC. The brushless motor, from my understanding, will have almost zero mainteance, which is because the ESC is doing extra job of alternating the current. I wonder what the reliability of the ESC will be.

Also, what is the expected run time for a brushless system installed on a Yokomo MR4 with stock gearings and 2400 matched pack?

[SixVi6-Camaro]

well I have one on my TC3 and have run it in the 200+ deg range every time I run it. I've had no problems and have not heard of any issues with controller. I know of two other people that run the Novak SS and have yet to report a single issue. Runtime will probably be in the 10 minute range on average but it will greatly vary depending on how much full throttle driving you do and the condition of the packs.

[JeepsDaddy]

i've had mine since you could first buy them... i'm tortured mine... i've tried to blow it up....

it still works perfect... :)

props to Novak for an awesome product...

btw... not working on motors in not a "lazy" habit.... it is an unneeded task on toy cars.....

peace out..... :)

[superben]

I have off road/on-road (stock + modified), nitro cars to race + a full-time job and two real cars to work on. I really don't have time to take care of my RC equipment.

[captainoblivious]

I love my novak in my TC3. I get about 15 minutes of runtime with matched 2400's, but that is not WOT all the time.

Only problem I had was 1 puddle of water, thankfully nothing happened as only a few splashes got on the controller.

[JEEL]

I have owned 2 of them for my race vehicles. Both were from the first batch sent out. I did have a problem with one of the controllers. Novak replaced it quickly and stated that it must have been a first run issue. Since then, both have been perfect!

[HiAmplidude]

I have a buddy who runs one in his Losi trip-X on the track. He's new to BL and hasn't quite grasped the urgent need to gear appropriately and has his geared way too high because he likes how it "trims the fat" from take-off torque. His system gets very hot, very fast (duh), but the Novak just keeps on tickin', amazingly.

[JeepsDaddy]

i feel the exact same way superben... the less time i spend jerking around on toy car motors, the more time i have for real fun... (like driving my r/c's, chics, bench racing, riding mx, looking at nudie pics on the net, getting 911 wings at Hooters, and on and on and on... the really important stuff in life ya know... LOL...)

peace out... :)

[losiracer03]

I have one in my XXX-T it is the fastest motor i have ever ran. The only problem i have had is i fried the on/off switch. So i soldered on a new switch and it runs fine.

[fishtale17]

Originally posted by losiracer03
I have one in my XXX-T it is the fastest motor i have ever ran. The only problem i have had is i fried the on/off switch. So i soldered on a new switch and it runs fine.
1 quick question? what spur/ pinion are you running. I am using 18/86.

[boostspike]

i am VERY interested in gettin the Novak SS. Most likely by the end on June i should have one..;) i'm gonna install it into my RS4 Pro... the car is basically stock outta the box except for the basic things (esc, motor, springs).. stock pinion 35t 64pitch, spur gear 122t 64pitch

Do i need any "supporting" parts when i order the SS??? like gears, CVD, pinions, etc.... or is what i have good enough


lastly, is the SS too powerful for its own good. meaning does it break or strip any parts related to the chassis...

Thanks All...

:)

[DualBL]

you should be fine with what you have.

the SS is NOT too powerfull for it's own good. that's why it's so talked about at the track;)

[Nitro Fans]

Hello,

I used to own three set of the ss system ( one set got damaged after repeated acceleration and braking in a small indoor carpet track ).

The menu recommends gear ratio no smaller than 6.5:1, but I find out it is having too much torque ( just like a nitro ) with that combination so I normally play with ratio like 5.5:1. I also find out at a ratio of ~5.2:1, my touring car is significantly much faster than a 9 -turn motor with 8:1 gear ratio.

However, I become worry one day after I discover the ESC heat sink is 120 degree celcius and the motor is 80 degree with such combination. It may be the reason why one them got damaged.

How about yours, what gear ratios are you using.

:D

[CharlieS]

Nitro Fans, You are way overgeared. If the ESC and motor are getting that hot, you are shortening your runtimes for one, but more than that you are repeatedly pushing the ESC to it's temp limit. That's not a very good idea. If the motor has too much torque, over gearing it is NOT the answer. That is the worse thing you can do. You should gear it properly and adapt your driving style a little more.

The Gearing Recomendations in the manual are correct of for On Road Sedan Applications, for Offroad please see the update on our website.

I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again. Most customers that have installed an SS into their car and run it at their local track, have reported that speed is similar to an 11 or 12 turn motor. The gearing is MUCH different, but the "Speed on the track" is similar. For on road it really depends on the track as to how "Fast" the system feels and is effected more by proper gearing selection.


Thanks,
Charlie

[crono man]

hey guys need some input from ss users

i was running my ss today in my xxx buggy(i had a 9.5ratio)halfway thru my run i asked my friend to check the temp of the esc with a temp gun and it read 235F i let the esc cool down then i used another pack and it ran fine to me!
do you guys think something could have been damaged even tho the esc is running fine after overheating?
do any of you guys got it that high?
its weird my tranny has no binding and the ratio is as novak recommends!
i dont wont to send it in if i dont have to as i have alot of races coming up and i live in canada so its going to be atleast 2week turnaround

am i being just paranoid?

thanks for any input

[superben]

Remember RCCA recorded very high temp. with the ESC too, that's why I opened this thread and asked for ESC reliability.

[CharlieS]

Crono- That sounds very high, we are seeing normal operating temps in the 160-180 range for most applications. Your setup does not sound any different. Try gearing down a tooth or two and see how it effects speed. There may be no difference in speed, but the heating will be reduced. As you reach the gearing limit, the motor will stay the same speed, but the ESC will get a lot hotter. Are you using normal "off road" tires? Larger street tires would need a lower gearing.

Thanks
Charlie

[crono man]

Originally posted by CharlieS
Crono- That sounds very high, we are seeing normal operating temps in the 160-180 range for most applications. Your setup does not sound any different. Try gearing down a tooth or two and see how it effects speed. There may be no difference in speed, but the heating will be reduced. As you reach the gearing limit, the motor will stay the same speed, but the ESC will get a lot hotter. Are you using normal "off road" tires? Larger street tires would need a lower gearing.

Thanks
Charlie

yes im using normal losi buggy tires

so now my ratio is at 9.5:1 so maybe 10:1 would be better?
i know this sounds weird but do you think a bigger pinion gear would actually lower heating?

(im stumped because usually my esc stay in the 160-180 range but yesterday it went way up and i havent changed my usual gearing the only thing i did differently is that i used the reverse alot to get out of crashes during my practice run at the track but when haflway thru my pack my friend temp gunned the esc at 235F my jaw nearly dropped)

i really like this system and i hope nothing is wromg with it.

thank you for your input charlie:)

[crono man]

Originally posted by superben
Remember RCCA recorded very high temp. with the ESC too, that's why I opened this thread and asked for ESC reliability.

how high temp did RCCA record during the test?

[CharlieS]

So this just happened one time? If that's the case there's nothing to worry about, one hot cycle wont hurt it. A taller final drive number is actually a Smaller Pinion Gear, not larger.

Using reverse "a lot" will make the ESC get significantly hotter than if you don't use it all, or just use it one or two times.

Thanks
Charlie

[crono man]

Originally posted by CharlieS
So this just happened one time? If that's the case there's nothing to worry about, one hot cycle wont hurt it. A taller final drive number is actually a Smaller Pinion Gear, not larger.

Using reverse "a lot" will make the ESC get significantly hotter than if you don't use it all, or just use it one or two times.

Thanks
Charlie

cool then maybe i was just too worried:)

one last question
doesnt the ESC have a thermal cut-off so to protect it if it gets too hot?

[CharlieS]

Yes, there is thermal protection, but if it gets really hot over time, the heat build up will somewhat creep up. This would allow it to operate at an over temperature state for some time while the temp raised throughout. It's not good to rely on the temperature protection.

Thanks,
Charlie

[crono man]

charlie,

my friend wants to use the novak with 7cells in his tc3 almost all the time.
is there a cause for concern about the novak overheating?
when using 7cells should he stick to the recomanded ratio?

thanks:)

[CharlieS]

If concerned, you could gear it lower to reduce heat. Maybe a tooth or two, but if it were mine, I wouldn't worry to much. These things are pretty durable. We've surpised ourselves many times during testing.

Thanks
Charlie

[JeepsDaddy]

yo Charlie.....

man... i gave you guys at Novak sooooo much trouble over missed release dates... heck.... i was probably one of the reasons you guys closed the "Orange Room"... LOL... (i give the guys at Orion just as much trouble though... LOL)

but i can not recommend your SS BL system highly enough... it is everything you said it would be, it was worth every bit of extra waiting, and it is more than worth every penny...

when i see the guys on this board asking which brushed motor they should buy now... i just wanna scream "BUY THE SS and you'll save SOOOO much money and have so much more fun"... anyone buying a new brushed mod for anything except for ROAR sanctioned events is just rolling up 50 dollar bills and burning them....

props to Novak on a great BL system.... and the balls to see outside the box, build it themselves, and put it on the market...

TheRealStern

peace out..... :)

[Nitro Fans]

my two novak,

the left esc got overheated and burned

[Nitro Fans]

a hole may help

[Nitro Fans]

so does install a " brushless" fan

[Nitro Fans]

another view,

now I strictly comply to the recommended gear ratio, together with the two tricks, I hope no more ESC damage on me ( twice already).

p.s. it isn't an xxx version Tc3

[Nitro Fans]

on the date which I second brushless died

this beautiful track also killed my GT-7 in the past

[crono man]

many thanks to charlie for coming on here and anwsering all our questions
fantastic product
fantastic service
fantastic and friendly crew

you guys are definetly on the right track keep it up!!:)

[CharlieS]

Hey Jeep, thanks for the kind comments and positive feedback. It's funny, I see our engineers and company "bosses" get all excited about these products too. We are all very "fired up" about Brushless and how much better it is for our industry. I just wish more people understood the difference in the Sensor Design we use. This type of performance is very difficult to acheive with anything else. Again, thank you for the praise, I'll make sure to pass the message along!

Thanks!
Charlie

[WheelNut]

Charlie do you have any idea of when the high performance system is going to be coming out? I heard you are working on a monster truck 14.4v system first, which I don't think is a good idea. E-maxx's and eletric monsters aren't really all that popular, the hype around the E-maxx has died and its safe to say there are a lot more stadium trucks and touring cars out there. I really hope I'll be able to buy the SS soon anyhow.

[CharlieS]

Sorry, no timeframe or performance information has been made available yet. We won't know "when" untill about a month before we start shipping. There are just to many variables with new products. The Super Sport went through quite a few almost complete designs.

Thanks,
Charlie

I've noticed this has turned into an email forum. Please if you have questions for us, email us directly.

[PatrickJ]

Brushless motor are very good but for those who have brush speed control and want a good brush motor that can take alot of abuse try plettenburg. Finedesign sells the plettenburgs the 290/ 20/4 is a very powerful 6 cell motor and they can take alot of purnishment. These motor will give the lehner and hackers a good run on 6 to 8 cells. I know someone tried a 12 cell version plettenburg on 28 cells and an astroflight 207d and the person burn his speedcontrol and his cell up and the motor servived that just to show how strong these motors are. The 290/20/4 will fit on the 05 motor mount but you will need a 5mm pinion from fine design. The motor cost $190 and it very fast.

[crono man]

charlie

just curious as to why the ESC could get hot if geared to high?

quote from wildhobbies by kerryG;

"Started with a 19t pinion and that got the motor and ESC pretty hot. I moved up to a 23t and the truck had ballistic power and ran cooler. I could probably gear it up a few more teeth. I was getting about 8-10 minutes of runtime at full speeds booking up and down the street. In a track situation, you can get around 10-12 minutes."

[rustymccoy]

i run the novak in my rusty and pede. in the rusty im geared at 22-78 usally. depending on the body i have on there isnt enouh air flow to keep everything cool. ive never had any over heating problems tho!! i just picked up the pede this last friday and so far ive noticed it runs a whole lot cooler. i need to do a few upgrades and add some goodies (im working on a 4x4 dual BL and 4ws) then ill see what im working with! just my $.02

[CharlieS]

Generally gearing with a taller pinion (smaller Gear ratio number) will result in higher temps when compared to a smaller pinion size. This is true for almost any motor/esc combo brushless or not. Driving style also has a big effect as well. I don't know why Kerry experienced what they did. All our testing has shown Bigger Pinion, Hotter ESC and motor. I checked with engineering about the pinion being too small making the ESC get hot, they confirmed that smaller pinion is less load, less current draw, which means less heating.

Thanks,
Charlie

[crono man]

charlie

with my current setup xxx buggy 9.5 final ratio,i can keep my finger on the ESC heatsink for 4-5 seconds after a full pack dump (6cells sanyo 3000HV)

i know this isnt much to go on but any input would be helpful to know if im overheating my ESC

[CharlieS]

Crono- That is about how I run mine. 4-5 seconds of thumb time. I try to cool off my hand a bit before I temp it. You know how you get hot hands while you drive right??? or is that just me? :)

[crono man]

Originally posted by CharlieS
Crono- That is about how I run mine. 4-5 seconds of thumb time. I try to cool off my hand a bit before I temp it. You know how you get hot hands while you drive right??? or is that just me? :)

thanks for the quick response charlie

hehehe my hands stay pretty cool after a run but man if i keep my thumb on esc more then 5sec its pain city!!!:D

[atm92484_3]

I'm thinking about getting one of these in my TC3 Rally. What kind of speeds can I expect from this set-up?

[superben]

Does Novak replace burned ESC without hassle?

[boostspike]

i want to thank you all for your opinion on the Novak ss... i'm poud to say i just ordered mine from Tower... should be here by Friday...YEAH BABY.....:D


<~~~ one happy muthafu **shut your mouth*

[jdm3849]

atm: expect speeds to be a bit above 40mph, the tc3 in street form goes nearly 42mph as tested by rcca with the novak system.

[TSR6]

Originally posted by CharlieS
Crono- That is about how I run mine. 4-5 seconds of thumb time. I try to cool off my hand a bit before I temp it. You know how you get hot hands while you drive right??? or is that just me? :)

hehe.. When running my nitro car, I don't cool my had off, I use the sweat off my fingers to check the head temp. :p

alright, maybe not.. ;)

-Troy

[mcquto]

Originally posted by superben
Does Novak replace burned ESC without hassle?

They replaced mine under warranty for free and only had a 7 day turnaround time! But if yours is out of warranty, they will replace it for $49.00 if the motor is still good. Just send the whole thing in to them and they will take care of you. Novak has the best customer service of any company I have delt with so far, both in and out or RC!

[cabrio3vw]

I'm going to buy the SS4300 system but i'm worried/unsure about the application. It's for a Tamiya TB-01 rally car. I intend on using the supplied gearing 16p/61s ;This car has a 98% air tight chassis tub which is why I bought the car as it's going to be used in ALL sorts of conditions including wet. I'm planning on racing it in mode '6' 2400rpm limit & reduced reverse w/brakes. Would there be any overheating problems?
P.S (I do not want to put vents in the dust cover) Thanks for any help.

[CharlieS]

Hello,

Well, other then basic water problems you should have not issues. The 4300 will NOT need to be run in the Limited Mode, it's the slower of the two Novak motors already, just use it in standard modes and gear lower if you want to reduce speed.

The water thing is never going to be "fool proof". So don't expect trouble free operation from any electric car that gets wet.

Feel free to email us anytime. tech@teamnovak.com

Thanks
Charlie

[cabrio3vw]

CharlieS,

Thanks for the reply. The reason for the 2400rpm limit is so that I DO NOT have a big advantage over the 'STOCK motor' Brushed cars. And Rally is all about how 'quick' not how 'fast' In fact if Novak did not have this SS4300 motor and the ability to limit the power I would not buy any B/L at all! I'm looking for consistent power race after race with little to do to the motor. My time/energy will be better spent setting up the chassis for each stage and surface.
The appealing idea about limiting RPM also has the advantage of having the same performance characteristics throughout a race; since a 3600mah stick pack's average 7.2v will be maintained longer preserving the cars feel for a longer period per charge. Thus I will increase my driving accuracy and consistancy.

[CharlieS]

Well, if you run the SS4300 in the Limited mode, it won't "hit" the limiter as the motor isn't really fast enough under load. Rember, our KV and KT numbers are with No Load, so in the car they don't see that kind of RPM.

The SS4300 is a bit quicker then your average stock motor, but a well tuned, Racing Stock motor is probably pretty close.

Thanks