Skill level seperation for qualifiers? [Archive]

MachWon

10-02-2003, 12:56 AM

It just occurred to me how inherently unfair this is. (after a few beers and posting to another thread of course, hehe)

Anyhow, my local off-road track has a practice of separating those of different skill levels and placing them in qualifiers based on that skill level. What happens is that we virtually end up with A-B-C (etc.) qualifiers and unfortunately, that's usually the way it ends up in the mains since scoring relies on track times and laps.

Does anyone else find this appalling? I mean, what ever happened to "luck of the draw" and "skill in the face of adversity"?

I really want to hear from those who believe something to the effect.. "Well, I'm a great racer and should not have to put up with inferior talent..blah" You know they're out there... and probably run in what most refer to as the "whiners main"

I've said it before and will say it again.. bring back random placement and heat race finishes as the deciding factors!

Grizzbob

10-02-2003, 01:21 AM

Are you talking about different classes of drivers, or drivers of varying skills in the same class? I know that at my loacl track, we allow people to more or less sign up in whichever class they wish(most of which use the same rules, most of the classes here are with stock motors), the biggest means of people deciding which class is their experience level or how fast they are. For example, we have a Sportsman, Stock, & Expert Stock TC class(all use the same rules as far as the cars go), & we just encourage someone who isn't ready to run with the fastest guys to run with those of similar ability(unless they just really want to run with someone in particular), so everyone in the class has a decent shot at winning(no sandbaggers, usually). We also try to encourage EVERYONE to run clean in their races(we frequently use IFMAR style qualifying, which I love, no first turn pileups, guarantees everyone of a clean start on their own clock) & if someone is going considerably faster that they give that driver the line. After all, they're really racing the clock more than each other in qualifying, & the more a group works together, the better their runs end up being. But generally, the fast guys end up with each other anyway, so I really don't see it as a big deal....

MachWon

10-02-2003, 01:42 AM

At this particular track there is only Novice, Stock and Modified classes for each type of vehicle and also uses IFMAR clock runs.

On their sign up sheet it actually askes drivers to choose a skill level (1-6) and places drivers in the qualifier that matches what ever they've chosen OR whatever qualifier the track thinks a driver should be in. (in case someone has fibbed or not chosen anything at all)

What makes it so infuriating to me is that someone is making a decision to benefit those drivers deemed to be "advanced".

Surely you see the unfairness of being placed in a qualifier with the less talented no matter who you are. It's my position that this selection should be random to be fair. Yes? Especially when everyone is running against the clock..

OldskoolGT

10-02-2003, 02:14 AM

I don't see what the problem is. In IFMAR style qualifying, everyone is on their own clock, and it is better to put guys who are similar in skill in the same heat. Are you saying that the determination for the mains should not be based on one's lap times? Why would you not want the fastest 8 qualifiers in the A main?

MachWon

10-02-2003, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by OldskoolGT
I don't see what the problem is. In IFMAR style qualifying, everyone is on their own clock, and it is better to put guys who are similar in skill in the same heat. Are you saying that the determination for the mains should not be based on one's lap times? Why would you not want the fastest 8 qualifiers in the A main? No.. it's preferential treatment, which is wrong no matter how you slice it. I don't want the fastest in the A main, I want the best. To pigeon-hole folks only skews that result.

OldskoolGT

10-02-2003, 02:34 AM

Aren't the fastest drivers the best ones?

MachWon

10-02-2003, 02:37 AM

Absolutely not.. ever ran into someone that kicks 'a' during practice and can't pass or let pass to save their lives?

Do they deserve preferential treatment- good or bad? Not in my book.

benlosi

10-02-2003, 03:13 AM

think about this.would you want to run with someone who drives all over the place and would smash into your $300 ride?or run with a group of people who can handle the track.

we have the normal mod.stock,sportsman which i use to run but we got 2 new classes spec which im into now and rtr.you wouldnt catch me racing in the rtr with those fools.........lol total demolition derby buggy and truck parts everywhere

xray

10-02-2003, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by OldskoolGT
Aren't the fastest drivers the best ones?

No, this brings into question IFMAR Qual rules. They don't work fairly.
Having heats is the only basis for fair comparison, unless the track is blue-groove, which isn't off-road anymore (see another thread for the big talk).

MachWon

10-02-2003, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by benlosi
think about this.would you want to run with someone who drives all over the place and would smash into your $300 ride?or run with a group of people who can handle the track.Don't you see? I don't think I (or anyone) has any right not to be in that position while someone else is being forced to.

Think about this.. a tracks "creampuff" qualifier is all filled up with the house favorites.. you show up as an unknown and are forced into the "lesser group" .. Hmmm, feelin' good about your chances, not to mention your $300 ride now? ($300 being a bit on the conservative side :eek: )

Aren't you angry everytime you hear about a public official getting a slap on the wrist for a crime that would put a normal man behind bars? Just how has his status earned him the right to easy street? Yup, thought so.. same principal.

The point is that everyone pays the same entry fee and thus deserves a level playing field. Surely you see the logic in that.

[Right on xray!]

Lapster

10-02-2003, 08:39 AM

At my track we just do

Sportsman
Stock Buggy
Stock Truck
Mod Buggy
Mod Truck
4x4 buggy
1/8 scale buggy*
Monster truck*

*- Normally we do not have enough people to run those classes, but if 3 or more people sign up for it, then we run it.

All of the classes are basically self explanatory, excep for sportsman. That is for the beginner racer. "You run what you brung." Is what we always say. You could have a Kyosho MP 7.5 with a .21 maranello, and have the slowest lap times, you wouild want to run in sportsman.

72mr2

10-02-2003, 09:52 AM

If you win the C do you advance to the B, and if you win the B do you advance to the A. You may suck on week 1 but be winning everything by week10. It happens all the time, people get better, thats what this is all about. If you are thinking WOW I finished 4th in the A and did not cause a major pile up maybe I should be running with the fast guys, you are most likely ready. The only thing I say is be courtious <sp> on the track of the leaders...don't hold them up...race for position.

OldskoolGT

10-02-2003, 11:07 AM

Yup. If you are a great driver and get stuck in the C-main somehow, then you should have no problem bumping up to a higher main. If you get stuck in the C-Main week after week, and never bump up, then that is exactly where you belong.

Now I agree that it would be more fair to not lump people into qualifiers based on an arbitrary decision. But you have multiple qualifiers and opportunities to bump up. It's fun to bump up too, you get more track time. :)

MachWon

10-02-2003, 11:50 AM

If you win the C do you advance to the B, and if you win the B do you advance to the A. (?)Now I agree that it would be more fair to not lump people into qualifiers based on an arbitrary decision. But you have multiple qualifiers and opportunities to bump up. No.. at this particular track there is no bumping (heck, they don't even reward wins) and I'm sure it's not the only one. Still, I don't see how that would make up for what is clearly an unfair practice.

In my example, I said the "favorites" qualifier is full, knowing that, answer me this.. why should the newcomer (not necessarily 'newbie') have to work harder than the favorites, every race day, simply because he has more obstacles to dodge in his qualifiers?

This track regularly attracts 25+ in both stock buggy and stock truck, and I keep seeing the same faces in both the "favorites" and "also rans" qualifiers. In that scenario there is no room to move, sure, some make it into the A from the lessers by having a good day, but I have to wonder.. How many more are kept out based on someone having a cleaner bunch to race with.. see my point?

[Fairness aside, it seems to me that some track owners, with, or without thinking about it, care more about retaining their "A" list drivers than expanding the field overall. Not good business IMO.]

OldskoolGT

10-02-2003, 12:36 PM

That does indeed blow, not having the opportunity to bump up. Perhaps you and some other drivers there can talk to the race director about implementing the bump up system. Having an incentive to place in the top 2 can make the racing in the lower mains very exciting.

While the system of bumping-up won't make up for an unfair qualifying procedure, it gives you the opportunity to make it into a higher main if your qualifying doesn't go so great due to bad luck, slow drivers, etc. If you are an A-Main caliber driver and you find yourself in the C, then you should have no problem bumping from the C to the B, and then to the A. It happens all the time at other tracks.

mab_man20

10-02-2003, 02:05 PM

It sounds like at the beginning of the day the track director sets up the heats as if he was betting on who would make the A main and never changes it. If this is correct then that is a MAJOR flaw. Every race that ive ever been in starts everyone out in random heats regardless of how good you are or how often you race. Subsiquent rounds are then shuffled so the fastest guys from the first heats run together, the next fastest run together and so on. After each round the heats are adjusted i.e. if my first run was the 12th fastest, id be in the 2nd heat 2nd round. If in the 2nd round i ran the 5th fastest of the day (of all the times in the first and second heats) i would be "bumped" up into the fastest heat for the 3rd round.

The A main is then comprised of the fastest 10 times of the day. Theoretically someone can sit in the bottom heat all day and then run a crazy fast run and be in the A main.

The bottom line is that the director must allow people to be moved around according to their skill. Bring this up to him, what is the worst he will do? Tell you you can't race there? If he does that then tell the rest of the racers what he told you and watch his business evaporate.

InspGadgt

10-02-2003, 02:44 PM

Everyone should have an equal chance at a clean qualifier. LIkewise everyone should have an equal chance at qualifying with someone who could potentially ruin their run. Random qualifiers is the only fair way to accomplish this. Also it's been my experience that drivers of less skill learn faster when driving with better drivers then if they get lumped all together all the time. Sure an A main driver doesn't want to be taken out by a C main driver in the qualifiers but neither does a B main driver or another C main driver.

sixandeightstringer

10-02-2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by InspGadgt
Everyone should have an equal chance at a clean qualifier. LIkewise everyone should have an equal chance at qualifying with someone who could potentially ruin their run. Random qualifiers is the only fair way to accomplish this. Also it's been my experience that drivers of less skill learn faster when driving with better drivers then if they get lumped all together all the time. Sure an A main driver doesn't want to be taken out by a C main driver in the qualifiers but neither does a B main driver or another C main driver.

I was going to say essentially the same exact thing - thanks, Gadgt, for doing my typing for me.

"Sorting" the qualifyers gives the top drivers an additional advantage and gives the less experienced drivers a handicap. It's patently unfair, and tracks just shouldn't do it.

TexRacer

10-02-2003, 03:15 PM

MachWon-Simply discuss with the director's that the mains need to be based on your qualifiers.Are you saying this ISNT done at that track?
If they only have Novice and then a stock class and your talking about the STOCK class and not novice.
If say 17 guys enter STOCK and not novice but STOCK that after running your qualfiers they dont seperate the quicker guys for the main?
I understand your gripe but it needs to be a lil clearer.Your not being super clear with what your saying.
If your saying that your stuck with the slower 7 all the time then I would let the race director know and everyone for that matter.If you beat out one of the top 10 after the qualifiers are over he should move down to the lesser pack the next weekend in qualifiers.
You might even ask if they can do Novice,Sportsman and then Expert.This helps a lil on this occasion.
If they wanna keep the 2 and your mad at how they make the qualifiers voice your opinion to mix it up so guys EARN their Spot in the main.
Goodluck.

newracer

10-02-2003, 03:20 PM

At the annual two day race that my local track puts on the first two qualifiers on day 1 are totally random. On day two the heats are resorted by lap and time and the last qualifier is run with people grouped that are of simular time. But they only do that on the two day race on any given sunday they are totally random.

MachWon

10-02-2003, 03:28 PM

(TexRacer- I was posting as you replied so to answer your question, this has nothing to do with novice and the mains are set up based on Q results for all classes.. The problem is the way the qualifiers are set up. The A-list drivers are grouped in one Q while the rest are left to fight it out among themselves.. again, unfair)

Else: Yes! Finally! :)

While shuffling during qualifying, based on performance in the one/two before it, is close. InspGadgt got it right.. I to believe that the only true (fair) method would be to shuffle each qualifier reguardless of how one does in the one or two before it. That way you don't exclude those that just happened to have a bad Q or those that got extremely lucky. Eliminating bias. (we drew numbers in motocross after all)

The complete random shuffle also lessens the burden on the race director since there is no 'sorting' chores to be done, no matter how easy software might make it.

That's what I am going to propose to the track in question. Oh, that and bumping.. Oh, not to mention rewarding at the very least, wins. (all the tracks I frequented in the late 80's early 90's did, I mean jeez, how much does a little generic plaque cost? Would mean so much to the younger drivers)

Racer Rob

10-02-2003, 05:01 PM

So your telling me that if you were a A Main driver that you would want a noob ( I have nothing against noobs) thrown in your qualifer to take you out at every corner and mess up your qualifing efforts because they don't have the driving ability you have yet? I am sure you would be the first to complain about it.

Look at it this way. People need to qualify with people at their skill level. The reason the same people are in the A main is because they ARE BETTER! If your a C Main racer, then start making the B Main a couple times then you can ask to be grouped with the B Main guys, or up your ability number by 1. There is logic to the system.

Another way to look at it:
If you were a C Main racer, and I decided to throw you in a qualifier with the A Main racers (Yes, I am a race director) and you still qualified in the C Main then what was accomplished besides you would have probably slowed down other racers as they worked to pass you?

As for the reply "If your put with the faster guys then you will become faster", um no false. You can't learn to be fast pulling over to let all the other traffic by. If you think that you can keep up and learn faster lines, practice is the time to try that, not when it matters as much. I guarentee a C Main racer won't be able to chase a A Main racer. If he could, then he wouldn't be a C Main racer.

The only way to get better is to practice. Learn the fast lines. Learn how to make your rig fast. Learn where your losing time to other people and work on fixing that. That is what will put you in a better main, not qualifing with faster people.

MachWon

10-02-2003, 05:46 PM

First of all Racer Rob, thanks for missing the point.. At any rate, allow me to address each of yours.So your telling me that if you were a A Main driver that you would want a noob ( I have nothing against noobs) thrown in your qualifer to take you out at every corner and mess up your qualifing efforts because they don't have the driving ability you have yet? I am sure you would be the first to complain about it.You could not be further from the truth and no, that's not what I said.. One, I don't want anyone 'thrown' in anywhere. Yes, it would happen that I would randomly be placed in a qual with a less experienced driver but that's where the best drivers should shine. ('noobs', as you call them, should obviously remain in Novice or Sportsman until ready, but that's a whole new thread)Look at it this way. People need to qualify with people at their skill level. The reason the same people are in the A main is because they ARE BETTER! If your a C Main racer, then start making the B Main a couple times then you can ask to be grouped with the B Main guys, or up your ability number by 1. There is logic to the system No, they don't.. where is that written exactly that they should be given special treatment? Also, if you had read my posts, how can one "move up" when the A-list is already full? Your logic is fundamentally flawed.Another way to look at it:If you were a C Main racer, and I decided to throw you in a qualifier with the A Main racers (Yes, I am a race director) and you still qualified in the C Main then what was accomplished besides you would have probably slowed down other racers as they worked to pass you?OK.. race director, I have a question.. Who are you to determine anyones skill level? Isn't that the real problem? If I showed up at your track one day where would you put me in relationship to your favorite drivers? The very act of placing me in one Q or another, based on your decision, is unfair to me and every other driver there! Also, so what has the C-main driver accomplished? Are you kidding? Why- they have been given a fair chance to excel against all styles/levels of drivers and their true talent has been realized. Is that wrong? Isn't that the primary function of a 'qualifier'?As for the reply "If your put with the faster guys then you will become faster", um no false. You can't learn to be fast pulling over to let all the other traffic by. If you think that you can keep up and learn faster lines, practice is the time to try that, not when it matters as much. I guarentee a C Main racer won't be able to chase a A Main racer. If he could, then he wouldn't be a C Main racer. That is categorically untrue. They most certainly will learn from the more talented, will become faster by pulling over for the faster instead of crashing and will eventually learn by example. Not only that but the normally "favorite" driver may just get a bit better by having to deal with the traffic they have been shielded from. It's win/win!The only way to get better is to practice. Learn the fast lines. Learn how to make your rig fast. Learn where your losing time to other people and work on fixing that. That is what will put you in a better main, not qualifing with faster people.Practice? I totally agree with you on that, and the need to learn setup. One question however.. Just how does one learn where they are losing time to other racers without racing them? Ever thought that there might be too many obstacles in in the "less talent" qualifier and not a line issue at all? Now tell me your system is fair.

As a race director it should be your duty to ensure that competition remains equal for all participants. Not to protect or banish a chosen few. It saddens me to know that is not the case. With your system, and your tendency to automatically categorize drivers as A, B, or C drivers up front.. one wonders why you have qualifiers at all. <shrug>

It is the qualifying races that should naturally seperate drivers. not you. That's why they call them qualifiers.

[I sure hope you read the above carefully and change your view on this.]

xray

10-02-2003, 06:58 PM

Hey guys, remember THIS IS OFFROAD. Therefore lap times are a meaningless metric. There is no way to guarentee, or even a need to, identical conditions.

If anything the classification should be NOVICE SPORTMAN EXPERT with A,B,C mains for each TYPE of class. You choose where you want to race, but for EXPERT you need to be bumped out of SPORTMAN (intermediate after a few wins).

You can enter NOVICE as well but same deal, you get bumped out of it. It's possible that the EXPERT class might fill up after too many racers get bumped up, but then you still get A, B, C, mains to take care of business.

BUT!!!! The key here is that 2-3 qualifiers place you in the mains of any class by your finish in each qualifier. That way the top 2 out each qualifier make the A main, etc.

Even randomizing the order in each qualifier doesn't matter then. If you think that it's unfair that you were last in your qualifier because the fast guys were in your qual, then it doesn't matter because you'll be last in the A main probably. Or maybe first in the B main.

Anyway, all this stuff was sorted out years ago before lap counting systems. For onroad, it's different since it's a level playing field in terms of track conditions ala Indy style racing.

-Xray

FLYBOY7

10-02-2003, 07:23 PM

word up Gadget and Xray....

1st off.... i hate IFMAR qualifiers... they are for whiners and people that don't have the balls to try and make it through the first corner clean...

does anyone realize.... if your track runs 3 IFMAR qualifiers, and single mains with no bump ups, that you are only "truely" racing for 5 minutes per week?? racing against the clock isn't racing to me....

if i wanted to race against a freak'n clock, i could do that at my house...

Grizzbob

10-02-2003, 07:59 PM

Hmm, you've obviously never had a day where EVERY run was ruined by someone making a ridiculous pass attempt in heads-up starts(I have), & I much prefer getting a clean start(which is the same for EVERYONE, so no favoritism, & IFMAR style is also more like the real thing, you don't see Formula 1 races qualified by having heat races, do you?). That being said, I admit I haven't experienced a track that sorts by those "levels"(though I have seen references to them) within the same class, but I still think that even if you get a raw deal in the sorting, you can still make something out of it. Just try to get the other drivers in your heat to WORK TOGETHER, that means giving up the line to faster drivers ALL the time. If someone in your group is obviously slower, then that person should be STRONGLY encouraged to not fight for track position(it'll only slow EVERYONE down, both the passer & passed), & everyone should take note of who the faster driver/car is in that group, so they can be recognized quickly & allowed to go through without undue drama, save the heroics for the mains, qualifying is just qualifying, so it's best to just concentrate on being clean. It's like Scotty Earnst says at S&N's Trackside Hobbies in Milwaukee, "It's better to let someone go & lose 2 tenths of a second than fight them for track position & lose several SECONDS."(I'm paraphrasing, btw). With practice, it can be done smoothly, & benefit EVERYONE in the group, & by learning how to work together, those slower drivers can become faster ones in no time at all.......:cool:

TexRacer

10-02-2003, 08:40 PM

Machwon.I wasnt trying to be hard I was just looking for a clear up that way there was No mistake on what my comments back would be.
I now see your point in saying you dont like some area tracks in the way that them picking your skill level is fair.I do see your point but however most race director's or shop owners will ask what your experience is,what class you regularly race and so on.
Not all of them are right.lol.I wanna say this now but some honestly try to put you in the right spot.
When you say 25 guys show up.You said you have novice and then stock,then mod.Is this 25 guys split between all 3 or are you talking all in just regular stock?
I also need to ask.Do you race 3 or 4 qualifiers?
If 3 or 4 I suggest this.To shuffle EACH round is a pain in the ass for the race director.It changes people's car #'s(Cost of #'s do go up) and it's time consuming on AMB's program.BUT,I would suggest that after 2 rounds you have them reshuffle and then put the fast guys with the fast guys.This is the way it's done at big events.This is about fair as you can be about Unknown or New Guys coming to your familiar track and truly knowing where to put them.Simply by how they did.Now the only bad thing is when you have a bad weekend(Breaking wise or just bad laps) you may get reshuffled to the slower classes.This will happen from time to time.But this is about the fairest way of doing things.
I would also request the following.Cheap ribons for Novice classes or the right of either(Ribbons or shop credit called RACE BUCKS).Can be used in the shop like cash or towards next weeks entry.
If you need some help with this just ask or email me.
Hope this somewhat helped.
Les

xray

10-02-2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by Grizzbob
Hmm, you've obviously never had a day where EVERY run was ruined by someone making a ridiculous pass attempt in heads-up starts(I have), & I much prefer getting a clean start(which is the same for EVERYONE, so no favoritism, & IFMAR style is also more like the real thing, you don't see Formula 1 races qualified by having heat races, do you?).

This is just not logical. Off-road= chaotic system determined by conditions. On-road = chaotic system determined by cars.

You cannot equate the two. The thread states OFF-ROAD qualifiers for sure, I assure you.

IFMAR for on-road is fine, but even in IFMAR do you see EVERY car on the track that was in the pits? That's Formula 1.

AGAIN: lap times in off-road are MEANINGLESS for the most part. They are a reference not an absolute, therefore qualifying is not fair using a clock.

-Xray

MachWon

10-02-2003, 11:42 PM

Not a problem Tex but I gotta tell you bud, you should read a bit closer ;)

This is what I said earlier:This track regularly attracts 25+ in both stock buggy and stock truck.. That means 25+ for each stock buggy class and 25+ for each stock truck class (both). I only used those two as an example since there is rarely enough in the novice or modified classes to split anyone into separate qualifiers.

And no, it's not that I don't like the tracks that do this, I'm actually convinced that they believe there is nothing wrong with this practice. I just thought I would start a conversation in hopes of getting a general consensus as well as instill a bit of logic in those that are not local to me.

BTW, the amount of people entered should have no bearing on how much work there is to shuffling entrants. (for 3 qualifiers in each class in my case) In fact, it should be easier. They no longer have to work their brains in an attempt to label and sort anyone right?. I said earlier that the ideal case would be to shuffle each qualifier regardless of how one does in the one or two before it. However, a compromise, and making sure that no one is playing favorites, is to randomly sort the qualifiers once each race day when sign-ups are over. That mixes it up sufficiently for the regulars as well as any newcomers that happen by. Again, showing no favoritism, and yes, everyone will occasionally end up in that race with the guy who looks at your car like a magnet.. we just have to deal with that. It's part of racing pure and simple.

Luck of the draw is all we have in the name of fairness. That goes for on and off-road in my opinion. The track really has nothing to do with it. (I'm not going to get into the heat vs. clock argument here)

Also, you mentioned the big races.. please tell me, after what you've read in this entire thread.. what in blazes is fair about ending up with everyone sorted in the third round? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the random draw entirely? It merely ensures that most of the 'fast' ones will keep that position for the mains. More bad practice as far as I'm concerned.

I do like your ideas on the rewards though, I'll bring that up when I talk to them. :)

Grizz: You have a nice idea, but getting ALL drivers to cooperate is kind of like getting bees to fly in formation.. looks good on paper but whoa, in the real world...? (especially if you are a stranger!) :D Still, it's a band-aid on a more serious wound.

InspGadgt

10-02-2003, 11:50 PM

Rob,

When I was just an A-main driver and not a race director, for the longest time I had that same attitude. And it was passed on to me by the other A-main drivers. Let me say this...it's elitist and it's crap. Let's review your points:

So your telling me that if you were a A Main driver that you would want a noob ( I have nothing against noobs) thrown in your qualifer to take you out at every corner and mess up your qualifing efforts because they don't have the driving ability you have yet? I am sure you would be the first to complain about it.

No of course I wouldn't want to be taken out by a noob...but the same applies if I were a B, C, D, E, whatever main driver. If they are a A main driver they should be good enough to pass when there's a clean opportunity and be patient enough to wait for it. Not giving everyone an equal opportunity at isn't fair to the rest of the drivers. Especially those high B main drivers that are very close to making the A.

Look at it this way. People need to qualify with people at their skill level. The reason the same people are in the A main is because they ARE BETTER! If your a C Main racer, then start making the B Main a couple times then you can ask to be grouped with the B Main guys, or up your ability number by 1. There is logic to the system.

No they don't...If they truely are better they will be able to get around the slower driver.

As for the reply "If your put with the faster guys then you will become faster", um no false. You can't learn to be fast pulling over to let all the other traffic by. If you think that you can keep up and learn faster lines, practice is the time to try that, not when it matters as much. I guarentee a C Main racer won't be able to chase a A Main racer. If he could, then he wouldn't be a C Main racer. v

Actually yes it will. First off learning the control to be able to pull over and not take yourself out and the person passing you is a big step in racing. Then once they do pass you, you get an opportunity to follow them and learn the cleaner faster lines around the track. This is natural for one to do and is usually subconsious.

The only way to get better is to practice. Learn the fast lines. Learn how to make your rig fast. Learn where your losing time to other people and work on fixing that. That is what will put you in a better main, not qualifing with faster people.

Definately practice is a necessary thing in learning. In some cases that's not practical. Like with temporary parking lot tracks. The only time you see track time on those is in the very short morning practice sessions and in the qualifiers. Yes practice will make you faster. But if your always lumped in with the slower drivers the chances of you getting a clean run in so that you can move up diminish much more then if the qualifiers were random. If the qualifiers are segregated then it gets progressively harder to move up the further down you go. That's a real good way to frustrate a newer driver to the point where he quits all together.

Look I'm not saying to randomize every qualifier. To do that would be a logistical nightmare. But each race day isn't too much to ask for. Or at the very least don't intentionally segregate the racers.

OldskoolGT

10-03-2003, 12:00 AM

Dang Xray, you really seem to hate timed qualifying. LOL

For really big races, there's really no other way. For example, at the Gas Nationals there were 170 buggy entries. That's 17 heats. If you take one winner from each heat, thats too many buggies for the A-main.

Here in TX we have a Stadiumcross series, which uses MX style qualifying (win your heat, advance to the main). But to ensure fairness, the race director has to try to spread out the fast guys throughout the various heats. And typically, the results are the basically the same as if you used timed qualifying. Its a fun way to race though.

xray

10-03-2003, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by OldskoolGT
Dang Xray, you really seem to hate timed qualifying. LOL

For really big races, there's really no other way. For example, at the Gas Nationals there were 170 buggy entries. That's 17 heats. If you take one winner from each heat, thats too many buggies for the A-main.

Here in TX we have a Stadiumcross series, which uses MX style qualifying (win your heat, advance to the main). But to ensure fairness, the race director has to try to spread out the fast guys throughout the various heats. And typically, the results are the basically the same as if you used timed qualifying. Its a fun way to race though.

True, heats don't scale well, but if you are having a national or world's race then it's over several days anyway.
Locally there might be a problem, but 170 buggies have to race anyway so all those cars will have to be on the track at some point. 17 * 4 minutes and 5 minute gap is a couple of hours anyway, so 2 heats would be the reasonable max. It's pretty fair.
The fastest will rise to the top anyway over many weeks if a BUMP format is included.

-Xray

xray

10-03-2003, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by OldskoolGT

Here in TX we have a Stadiumcross series, which uses MX style qualifying (win your heat, advance to the main). But to ensure fairness, the race director has to try to spread out the fast guys throughout the various heats. And typically, the results are the basically the same as if you used timed qualifying. Its a fun way to race though.

Actually another thing about stadiumcross: the fast guys are REALLY fast! The guys that are way off the pace deliver pretty poor lap times no matter how equal the conditions.

In buggies and STs the races are usually pretty tight. It would suck to be in the C main because you turned 1 lap less than the other fast guys, just because there was a pile-up. That would be guaranteed for timed laps. On-road, or oval at least is mostly clean.

Grizzbob

10-03-2003, 02:20 AM

Grizz: You have a nice idea, but getting ALL drivers to cooperate is kind of like getting bees to fly in formation.. looks good on paper but whoa, in the real world...? (especially if you are a stranger!) :D Still, it's a band-aid on a more serious wound. [/B]
Actually, I think you missed my point, I wasn't talking about things that could be, I was talking about what actually HAPPENS at the tracks I enjoy the most, & even the race director helps out whenever possible(by letting a driver know when someone's coming up on them fast, so they have time to find the best place to let them by). this wasn't on paper, this is in PRACTICE. It's just a matter of all the drivers agreeing that the CLOCK is the real opponent in qualifying, & the cleaner a group runs together, hte faster they usually are as a group(& the better their own chances of making the "A" main). You REALLY need to go to a race like the US Touring Car Champs in Milwaukee, & see what I mean(that's where we got the idea to do it that way down here in Oklahoma), Scotty(Earnst, the track's owner) does a great job of encouraging EVERYONE to work together, & as a result, they even have more fun in the process(there is NOTHING like a bumper to bumper race that's run totally clean. I'm not ganna say that it works perfectly every time, but it DOES work, if EVERYONE agrees to do it(& you never know if someone can or can't do it if they never try). Oh, & xray, about the "differences between on & offroad, that's an illusion, they're ALL run against the clock, & if you think it's impossible to run clean & consistent laps offroad, then you just haven't practiced enough(or you drive on a truly TERRIBLE track surface that NO ONE would enjoy running on). I ran my share of offroad( might get back into it if our local track owner can afford to set up an indoor offroad track alongside our onroad one), & I know for a fact that IT CAN BE DONE, because I could do it(though a factory driver I'm not, I do make my share of mistakes, but not usually ones that need a corner marshall). All it takes is PRACTICE.......:cool:

MachWon

10-03-2003, 02:42 AM

Actually, I think you missed my point, I wasn't talking about things that could be, I was talking about what actually HAPPENS at the tracks I enjoy the most, & even the race director helps out whenever possible(by letting a driver know when someone's coming up on them fast, so they have time to find the best place to let them by). this wasn't on paper, this is in PRACTICE. It's just a matter of all the drivers agreeing that the CLOCK is the real opponent in qualifying, & the cleaner a group runs together, hte faster they usually are as a group(& the better their own chances of making the "A" main). No, I didn't assume it wasn't being used sucessfully, I was merely using my own experience as a guide. I've tried it myself, even though one would think that it is a given with IFMAR starts, usually with poor results. ('course, I'm not getting any help from the track yet :p ) I agree that it should be exercised no matter what, especially if the qualifiers are correctly (randomly) populated.

However, I still stand by my band-aid comment on even having to attempt that technique in order to counter act the condition that inspired my origional post.

Tell me, is that why you use it? Do they purposely sort drivers in the qualifiers at the track you mentioned? Or for that matter, the national event you mentioned?

xray

10-03-2003, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by Grizzbob
Oh, & xray, about the "differences between on & offroad, that's an illusion, they're ALL run against the clock, & if you think it's impossible to run clean & consistent laps offroad, then you just haven't practiced enough(or you drive on a truly TERRIBLE track surface that NO ONE would enjoy running on). I ran my share of offroad( might get back into it if our local track owner can afford to set up an indoor offroad track alongside our onroad one), & I know for a fact that IT CAN BE DONE, because I could do it(though a factory driver I'm not, I do make my share of mistakes, but not usually ones that need a corner marshall). All it takes is PRACTICE.......:cool:

Ahhh, see herein lies the rub...different thread,but....
A terrible track surface is the IDEAL surface, hence OFFROAD. There are too many sissy-smooth blue-groove tracks around where drivers need only to steer and stay on-off the throttle.

A blue-groove can indeed be used with the lap-time strategy, but that's not OFFROAD. It's onroad with BIG tires.

On-road guys I've seen constantly spin out on a real OFFROAD tracks, or when the track changes. It's just not a fair comparison.
The formats should be different for offroad and onroad period.

-Xray

Racer Rob

10-03-2003, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by MachWon
OK.. race director, I have a question.. Who are you to determine anyones skill level? Isn't that the real problem? If I showed up at your track one day where would you put me in relationship to your favorite drivers? The very act of placing me in one Q or another, based on your decision, is unfair to me and every other driver there!
I as the director would put the ability you wrote on your sheet into the computer and wherever the computer placed you, you would be. If I noticed that you were faster or slower then what you put down, I would change that number next time you came out to race so you qualified with people of your ability. I would hope all race directors do it that way.
As for "A Main qualifer is already full" there can be more then one qualifier with fast guys and there ususally is, so that means nothing. I did read your post and put my views. To me your post looks like a bunch of crying that you are mad your not as fast as you think you are.

Grizzbob

10-03-2003, 03:02 PM

MachWon, no, there really isn't any need to presort everyone in each class(we really don't have all that many in each class right now anyway down here), it's usually whoever signs up first are in the first group, & on down the list(& of course, changes are sometimes made to deal with frequency conflicts). For the most part, just making sure everyone is in the right class for them takes care of everything, gives everyone a decent shot at winning on any given night(except for maybe the Expert classes, there are a couple of guys that are just near impossible to beat, one of them really should be seriously sponsored, he's that good). We all just took it upon ourselves to help each other out, because it's the right thing to do(& it's a good way to make friends with your competitors, you know). Remember, we're supposed to be in this for the FUN, this is a good way to encourage that(placing a bit less emphasis on the "win or die" attitude)....And ack to xray, while I agree that there are too many crybabies about blue-groove tracks(& far too many blue-groove tracks in general), when I'm talking about a poor track surface, I mean one that's so rutted & torn up that NO ONE can get their cars to work. There's one in a nearby city that's like this, they've done such a poor job of taking care of it that not even factory sponsored guys will run modified on it, because they have NO chance of getting their cars to work(& I don't mean some kids who called a little R/C company to get goodies either, I mean REAL drivers who are near the top if the heap for one of the big ones, maybe one step below guys like Baker, Pavidis, Kinwald, Francis, etc.). But the fact remains, as you said yourself, the track is the same for EVERYONE, so the handicap is the same for everyone, so I see no problem about fairness, & no matter what you lead yourself to believe, no matter how dirty a run is, you're ALWAYS racing against the clock(whether you want to or not). I just get the feeling that you've never run anywhere that does it right, so naturally you don't know how well it can work, it takes EVERYONE's cooperation to have good qualifiers, & even on a rough surface, it doesn't take much to let your car go wide for a split second to let a faster car go through....

MachWon

10-03-2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by Racer Rob
I as the director would put the ability you wrote on your sheet into the computer and wherever the computer placed you, you would be. If I noticed that you were faster or slower then what you put down, I would change that number next time you came out to race so you qualified with people of your ability. I would hope all race directors do it that way.So you're telling me that you can keep track of everyone that's running? Wow, if it's true that you have that nearly impossible skill, my hat's off to you. Oh yeah.. what if I write nothing and never get on the track until my first q? Admit it.. it cannot be done with absolute consistency. My advice? Drop the skill level question and place them randomly.

Originally posted by Racer Rob
As for "A Main qualifier is already full" there can be more then one qualifier with fast guys and there usually is, so that means nothing. I did read your post and put my views.<sigh> I don't even know how to address this contradictory quote. The point was that since you have separated the normally "A-main" drivers in their own qualifier, then you have effectively set up the A-main before it happens. That's directly (illegally) tampering with an outcome of a competition. Don't work yourself too hard on this.. it makes sense.</sigh>

Originally posted by Racer Rob
To me your post looks like a bunch of crying that you are mad your not as fast as you think you are. This statement simply outrages me and, at the same time, is so typical of someone who just won't listen to reason. This isn't about how I drive.. Truth be known, I don't race that much anymore. Not that I have to defend myself at all to you, let me give you some background.

I got into this sport in the mid eighties. We evolved into a team of six drivers that covered every conceivable class, were friends and consistently made the A-mains no matter where we raced!! This lasted for nearly a decade. There were approximately six tracks in our area at that time (dirt and carpet) and NOT ONE of them purposely separated drivers for the qualifiers or heats, (manual or auto lap count systems).

I have only recently gotten back into the sport on a limited basis (with my son and nephew) and now there is but one track in the area. (not a hold-over) Once we visited and raced a few times I started noticing the behavior that inspired this thread and realized that something was fundamentally wrong with it. Having been out of it for a while I honestly now find myself a high B, low A driver (stock) but I'm just in it for fun now. If I had the time or desire to get back to the level I was, I would STILL have a problem with preferential treatment. You have to understand this argument is for the fairness of all drivers.

This is a discussion on theory of practice only. To have you "assume" it is otherwise, or "crying" for my own sake, without really knowing anything about me, illustrates just how little you must think of the drivers, good or bad, that you converse with and currently direct. Surely you will try to correct me on that but your reply speaks volumes.

Listen, wise up, don't be so quick to judge.. and oh yeah, don't be afraid of change, or to do what is right for that matter. That's your job as race director.

jkerr0043

10-03-2003, 05:40 PM

Here's how they used the IFMAR qualifying at this years Reedy race. They randomly put you in into heats. You ran your first three heats in those groups. Your Fourth and final heat they re did the heats based on your best qualifier to that point. This way your last qualifier, you're runnign with guys who truly are closer to your skill level. In many cases in the 19 turn class a whole heat was seperated by less than .5 sec! This way the higher you are, the better drivers you're running with and the better chance you have to get one last rocket run. This way you end up with the best of both, random placement as well as getting to run with your skill level drivers. Personally, I did not like the IFMAR/ Qualpoints system. I had one bad run and that dropped me down two full mains. I like heads up qualifying. As far as getting "stuck" in the lower level qualifiers when you don't belong in there, what if that happens randomly. I've run into that many times. One fast guy will be put in a heat with some slower guys and not get that great of a qualifier because of that. Same thing to me.

Grizzbob

10-03-2003, 07:03 PM

Actually, that can be a STRENGTH of IFMAR qualifying, it gives that guy(who had a bad early run) a good chance to get a clean run, even with the slower drivers in his group, but like I said, it's all dependent on everyone in the group WORKING TOGETHER. At the Novak US TC Champs, they actually resort the heats after EVERY qualifying run, & as I said, they keep a close eye on the cars running to help the drivers to help each other, & those who listen & do help each other run clean usually end up going faster than they did before, so it helps EVERYONE. At that point, a driver has no one to blame for a poor run than himself(which I think is a big problem for many people, they hate admitting there's anything wrong with them, so they put the blame somewhere else). For me, the whole point of racing is to HAVE FUN, & in truth the only person I'm really racing against is MYSELF. If I got that hung up on what group I was placed in or some of the niggles I've heard in this thread, I think I would've quit racing some time ago....

jkerr0043

10-03-2003, 07:36 PM

I agree with you about the resorting being a good thing about IFMAR. The thing I didn't like was with qualpoints, they say they take your best two. Then the ird is a tie breaker and the fourth is the last tie breaker. So there are no throwouts. When there's 100 drivers in a cpec class, almost all of which are within a lap to a lap in a half of each other, almost everyone ends up using all four of their qualifiers. I had one 78 because of a bad glitch in the first run and the rest of my qualifiers were in the mid 40's and I ended up qualifying 61st over all. Makes it very hard to qualify well in an event like that.

Grizzbob

10-03-2003, 10:55 PM

Yeah, I could see the frustration in that. Fortunately at the Novak TC race, they just go by your single fastest run(& you get 4 tries at it) to set the mains, so the need for tiebreakers is quite minimal(except in the mains possibly)....:cool:

Racer Rob

10-06-2003, 09:26 PM

Oh yeah.. what if I write nothing and never get on the track until my first q?
If I leave it blank the computer will put a 5 in that spot. (Scale is 1-10)

Listen, wise up, don't be so quick to judge.. and oh yeah, don't be afraid of change, or to do what is right for that matter. That's your job as race director.
Yeah.... oooook. Its really simple how the system works. You put down a number, I put it into the computer. No number gets you a 5 automatically. Whats so hard to understand about that?

No they don't...If they truely are better they will be able to get around the slower driver.
Why should a faster guy have to deal with a slower driver to begin with? All its doing is slowing both people down. The fast guy has to slow up and wait for a chance to pass. The slow guy has to get out of the fast line to let him by. Tell me how that has helped either of their times, I am intrested to hear. The reason its a problem is because your racing the clock not for postition, that goes back to the way the system works. ( I don't agree with qualifying by times myself, but thats how its done) If it wasn't for the clock factor it wouldn't be as big of a deal who is in your qualifier.

I have only recently gotten back into the sport on a limited basis
Just because you were a A Main driver in the 80's, do you think you still are today? A lot has changed in this sport, and it takes more then ever to be fast. I have been into this hobby since 1985, and I have seen all the changes.

If I seem like I am being rude, I am not. I am just pointing out how it all works.

I would be interested to try your idea, by listing everyone as a 5 and letting the compuer just place them where it wants to, but I don't think people would come back to race after that. The racers cry enough as it is about the smallest things. (Yes I know its a generalization, and not all people do, but the majority that I have seen and met are like that. Its sad actually.)

InspGadgt

10-07-2003, 12:31 AM

Why should a faster guy have to deal with a slower driver to begin with? All its doing is slowing both people down. The fast guy has to slow up and wait for a chance to pass. The slow guy has to get out of the fast line to let him by. Tell me how that has helped either of their times, I am intrested to hear. The reason its a problem is because your racing the clock not for postition, that goes back to the way the system works. ( I don't agree with qualifying by times myself, but thats how its done) If it wasn't for the clock factor it wouldn't be as big of a deal who is in your qualifier.

The point isn't the faster guy having to deal with a slower driver...it's a slower driver having to deal with even more slower drivers in their heat which makes it that much worse for them. The time lost by an A main guy in getting around a slower driver is typically very minimal. I know the A main racers cry about that all the time...I've had to deal with it myself. But that is usually resolved in driver education. Get them to see the other driver's point of view as well. But by helping A main drivers your handicapping the lower main drivers even further then they allready are. In some forms of racing the faster you are the more weight they add to yoru vehicle...but never to the slowest.

DerekB

10-07-2003, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by InspGadgt
The point isn't the faster guy having to deal with a slower driver...it's a slower driver having to deal with even more slower drivers in their heat which makes it that much worse for them. The time lost by an A main guy in getting around a slower driver is typically very minimal. I know the A main racers cry about that all the time...I've had to deal with it myself. But that is usually resolved in driver education. Get them to see the other driver's point of view as well. But by helping A main drivers your handicapping the lower main drivers even further then they allready are. In some forms of racing the faster you are the more weight they add to yoru vehicle...but never to the slowest.

How about this:

If your track has different levels of skill in the same class there should be no "cherry picked" qualifing. If you only have 25 guys it's the luck of the draw. The first time I was given an opportunity to pick a skill level (at socal) I picked on too low and it wasn't an enjoyable race. Everybody crashed, I went home pissed. The next time I went into the factory mod class and although I was the slowest I went home happy. I was the guy that had to move out of the way and I did. Never impeeding the other racers.

If you run enough qualifiers you can reshuffle. If you have a lot of racers you have to go by skill level. If you were an A-Main racers stuck in a pack of first timers (and they all stayed on the track) you aren't qualifying well (although some times it works the other way and you are faster).

I like the motocross style of bumping up, but unfortunately that's only possible in nitro.

MachWon

10-07-2003, 01:20 AM

I don't think I could add to the last two posts. They addressed it juuust fine.If I seem like I am being rude, I am not. I am just pointing out how it all works.Oh, no worries here, just so long as you see the logic. And don't you mean the way it is currently working? ;)I would be interested to try your idea, by listing everyone as a 5 and letting the compuer just place them where it wants to, but I don't think people would come back to race after that. The racers cry enough as it is about the smallest things. (Yes I know its a generalization, and not all people do, but the majority that I have seen and met are like that. Its sad actually.)Yup.. sad indeed, believe me, I know the type. I really hope you do.. If you think about it, they hurt more than help the hobby. I often wonder how many newcomers they turn away [read: money out of your pocket] - (hmmm, food for thought?). Well, the way you (and others) are currently running things didn't happen over night. Like I said, it wasn't always that way in my neck of the woods, and yes, I suspect it would take some time to "ease" the cry babies into it.

Hey, while were at it.. does anyone have any promtional gimmicks to announce a change of venue that might work?? You'd be helping a great deal of race directors out of a rut. :)

[You see Grizz, it's not a petty argument, not when ppl are passionate about either side]

DerekB

10-07-2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by MachWon
I don't think I could add to the last two posts. They addressed it juuust fine.Oh, no worries here, just so long as you see the logic. And don't you mean the way it is currently working? ;)Yup.. sad indeed, believe me, I know the type. I really hope you do.. If you think about it, they hurt more than help the hobby. I often wonder how many newcomers they turn away [read: money out of your pocket] - (hmmm, food for thought?). Well, the way you (and others) are currently running things didn't happen over night. Like I said, it wasn't always that way in my neck of the woods, and yes, I suspect it would take some time to "ease" the cry babies into it.

Hey, while were at it.. does anyone have any promtional gimmicks to announce a change of venue that might work?? You'd be helping a great deal of race directors out of a rut. :)

[You see Grizz, it's not a petty argument, not when ppl are passionate about either side]

I don't know too many poeple that show up at the track and expect to be in the A-Main or running with the fast guys. If a new person comes to the track and they "think" that because the run up and down the street without crashing, are able to race they should be explained to that it doesn't work like that (in nice way).

When I was helping with racing a kid came with his dad and a Rustler. the track owner told him to go home. I took him and his dad aside and explained that he didn't need a race ruck yet. Go out and learn how to drive a track, exploit the car to it's fullest ability and then upgrade. In 2 weeks he bought all new stuff. This isn't about racing and qualifying it's running a successful shop and track. Something few can do right. Newbie's should be seperated, they'll appreciate being able to win something and the locals will appreciate not crashing with them. Win win.

Racer Rob

10-08-2003, 11:04 PM

Well for grins yesterday for our on-road program I put everyone in as a level 5 for ability to see what would happen. Computer sorted people random that way. Pretty much the same people were in the same mains as the previous weeks. No one really complained about the heat they were placed in.

Today, I did the same for dirt, and saw the same results. Granted, we only had 23 for on-road, and 20 for the dirt program, thats why I tried it during the week instead of on the weekend racing.

So from what I saw with those 2 races, it really doesn't matter. Mostly, people where bummed when they couldn't race with their friends in the same qualifier.

Is that what you were looking for?

Bermy

10-09-2003, 01:59 PM

Hi Guys,
This is my first post on this forum and I've been very bothered by what some of you had to say. First let me say I have to agree with a lot of things xray had to say. Timed racing sucks. I love the starting gate and the idea of head to head competition. I didn't get into this hobby to race a clock I entered the hobby to have fun and compete against the person next to me.
Also for you guys who think that slower drivers get in the way and don't learn anything from racing the faster guys you couldn't be more wrong. First of all if you are that much faster then another person you will get around them. I remember a 6 lap race I was in and for 3 laps I couldn't get around this guy and I know I was way faster then him but I just couldn't pass him. After the 3rd lap I was able to pass him and come in second from dead last. After the race he apologized for not moving over but I told him there was no need for him to apologize if i'm supposed to be the better and more experienced driver it's up to me to get around him. That's racing.

Racer Rob

10-10-2003, 12:56 PM

Yes I know what you mean, but you need to remember we ARE racing the clock not each other, so obsticles in your way (ie. slower drivers) don't help when your trying to score a good time. Thats all I have been trying to say.

stormperson

10-10-2003, 01:37 PM

I do not think it is a bad idea. Yes, it can sometimes be unfair, however, overall I think its a good idea. I am a decent driver, I am top 30 in stock onroad nationally, however there is no way that I can run with factory mod drivers, and I should not be in there class, I would be completely in the way.

I think it is unfair to both the faster person and the slower person. The faster person is held up and can cost them time, and the slower person loses time when they have to move over. Also alot of fast drivers will take out slower drivers because they do not trust them to move over either within a reasonable time or they might take them out because they think its a good idea to race for positions in quals, or because the slower driver cant control his car enough to not take out the faster driver.

It does not mean that the slower driver cannot qualify in a higher main, it just means that they are with drivers closer to them during the quals.