When Will the Price of Brushless Fall? [Archive]

gizmoguy303

11-13-2003, 06:46 PM

After this Christmas season, I will most likely be in the market for a racing-oriented brushless motor and ESC that has the power of a mod but can be programmed to run simliar to a stock.

Let's see, sounds like a Novak SS, right?

However, I have a feeling that Novak's rather large chunk of the brushless market is about to the threatened by other companies offering similiar systems. Example: Orion.

When competition arises, prices should go down, correct? I am also hoping that even by the sole appearance of Novak's new, more powerful system, the prices of the Novak Super Sport will decrease. Hey, I said I was hoping. :D

So when do you think more and more companies like Orion will be offering competitive systems, and if so, do you think it will play out as I stated above? Right now, $235 is too much to pay for an improvement (a big one, however) on something I already have. :p

JohnSheridan

11-13-2003, 06:59 PM

To pay $235 on a system to last you a good season or two with very minimal maintenance and small depravation on peformance is a dream come true for any serious wannabie champion racer.

Think about it. You spend $235 on it then you fix it on your car and leave it in there never to be bothered by it ever again unless you need to inspect it. You save yourselves packets on motors brushes, motor springs, motors skims, motor armatures (should the can still be any good) or in some cases motor can re-zapping and then theres the time factors on skimming the motor, stripping and re-building them, re-soldering brushes, With all that time saved you can concentrate on the all important issues. and thats enjoying your racing rather than pissing about with your motors!!

BJMFH1.01

11-13-2003, 08:13 PM

When more people buy BL systems, prices will fall accordingly. Either that or the complete opposite, BL systems do not sell at all and companies sell them at a loss in order to get rid of their inventory. Competition between rival companies should also help to decrease the costs.

gizmoguy303

11-13-2003, 08:31 PM

I guess my last sentence shouldn't have been included. I realize the tremendous advantages that brushless has over brushed motors, and I also realize that they are actually cheaper in the long run than a cheap brushed motor - I suppose my real question is: Will brushless prices fall soon, and if so, when?

k_sw31

11-14-2003, 12:01 AM

For now, Novak owns about 90-95% of the market. I hate to say this, but, you will only see a dramatic price difference once another company comes out with a system, like orion. Novak has no competition right now...why should they drop the prices?

Take not, the SS5800 motor is only 80$. About 20$ more than a reedy, a D5, etc.

The controller is 170$.

This is a little more than a modified system of similar performance. Now you need to take in the life span of a brushed mod...after about 20-30 runs the novak has paid for itself already. :)

TC3-MikeB

11-14-2003, 03:49 PM

to say that novak has 90-95% of the market is only partially true. they only have that percentage of the popular market. what you dont hear about is the electric cars going 60mph with Lehner, Hacker and Schulze systems in them. the guys that are really into brushless technology use those companies and have been using them far longer than novak's system has even been out. yes the price of those systems is still high, but for the level of performance id say its worth it. the novak and orion systems may drop in price but ive yet to see a car with either of those systems push a 16 cell rc car to 60+ mph. as far as racing goes i think itll be a while till there are sanctioned races for brushless motors but it will happen. i do like the ability of the novak controller to go into the "stock" mode, no others have that. prices will fall but unfortunately not for a while, imho. --Mike

k_sw31

11-14-2003, 05:27 PM

I disagree. If you really look at it, I really think 9 out of every 10 bl owners have a novak. These systems are commonly available in hobby shops, and recommend by many people. On the other hand, people who buy hacker, lehner, and schulze are usually people who want to go really fast. This makes up a pretty small portion of the hobby.

But thats just my opinion.

Remember, 50% of all statistics are made up!

professor_griff

11-25-2003, 02:15 PM

people who buy hacker, lehner, and schulze are usually people who want to go really fast. This makes up a pretty small portion of the hobby.

I've yet to see one brushless owner say they bought their system because they want to go really slow. (sarcasm sorry)

(seriously now)
I own both Hacker and Novak BL systems, have some friends that run Lehner/Schulze setups, so I'm familiar with those. I do not believe that Novak has "owned" the market yet. They have the mass marketing ads that the others don't, but when your looking to drop 200-500 on a setup you do your research, and ask questions, post in forums, and I've yet to see anyone that thats into BL systems that has tried or seen other comparable systems recommend a Novak system over the others. I see more people running Hacker and Lehner systems imop the two most popular brands. My Novak 5800 setup is good and does exactly what I want it to do "Cheap BL Bashing in the street with my xxx-s". Brushless setups are still fairly new to the car/truck scene. Systems for boats, helos/planes have been around for a lot longer. If your looking at the market as a whole then Novak has only a small part of it only offering for 1/10 scale cars and trucks while the other companies offer for a wider range of rc vehicles.

Some companies that offer systems for cars/trucks that I know of:
Lehner
Hacker
Novak
Aveox
Kontronik
Mega
Graupner
Schulze
Plettenberg
Orion (someday will finish revising esc case and release system to public last I've heard)
Model Tech (don't know if they make them anymore)
Rum Runner Hobbies (I heard is designing there own, heard some bad things about them though, poor customer support)

Best place to buy a BL setup that I have found finedesignrc.com awesome warranty on their motors.

Novak does offer one thing the others do not though competitive prices. Novaks sensored system has a very linear throttle response never any cogging problems. The 200 watt 5800 just lacks grunt compared to Lehners 700 watt 5300.

My opinion is if Orion gets there act together and comes out with:
1. "Quality Product" (speed control/motor)
2. The multiple choice of motors turns
3. At or below Novak prices
Then other companies would have to follow suit, the logic in that is why spend 500 on a Hacker or Lehner setup when you could spend 300 on a equal/comparable Orion setup.

50% of all statistics are made up! that ones probably made up too!

mtrsprt

11-25-2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by professor_griff
The 200 watt 5800 just lacks grunt compared to Lehners 700 watt 5300.

You also have to think of your runtime, when your running a motor thats making over 3X the power output.

Thats a HUGE difference in power levels, how can it possibly be 3X the power in roughly the same size can? I wonder how each motor was tested??? Maybe different testing procedures will yeild mixed results??? Or is the Lehners THAT much more brawny in actuallity?

professor_griff

11-25-2003, 09:45 PM

Thats a HUGE difference in power levels, how can it possibly be 3X the power in roughly the same size can?

That's comparing sensored and sensorless

From what I know Lehner systems are sensorless, these motors allow higher wattage and are faster, due to lack of signal delay from the sensors. Novak and Aveox offer sensored systems. I don't own that system (a friend of mine does) so I'm not quite sure on run time but it's still higher then comparable brushed systems. Runtime is a factor in purchasing but when you dump 200-500 on just a motor and speed control more then likely you'll have the money to buy more batteries. Brushless motors are hard to compare, different speed controls allow higher or lower amps, sensored motors run at lower watt and amps then sensorless systems, but have fewer cogging problems. There are pros and cons to each side but until your allowed to race competitivley with them does it really matter? Most people use them for bashing and worry free fun (bashing, such a bad term I don't bash my stuff but I have fun with it) it's nitro speed without the maintenace.

To tell you the truth I see alot of companies rate there motors differently: some by watts, some Kv rating, some compare to brushed by turn rating. The best way to find what you want is find reliable sources that are known for giving good info and pick there brain.

DualBL

11-26-2003, 03:18 AM

i just have to say 2 short things...

Model Tech NEVER made motors. they made pretty little stickers to put onto schulze controllers and hacker motors

RRH has GREAT customer service, but they were made to look bad, when Lehner/BK would take over 6 months to repair controllers. I've had MORE than excellent service and support, and just wish that Lehner/BK didn't have to be the way they are....

-Nick

professor_griff

11-26-2003, 08:35 AM

I was just giving examples of companies for people to look up and since they don't offer them anymore it doesn't matter. The rumrunner thing nothing against them but I've heard more negative then positive about them, but hey if you have good luck with them more power to you. Me personally they don't even offer up a phone number for customer support, emailing them takes a few days. I'll stick with finedessignrc. Hacker has the same problems you couldn't even even get thier sport controller for the longest time because they were revising the program again.

End Overend

11-26-2003, 01:19 PM

It appears that there is some mis-information going on with this thread concerning power output between sensored and sensorless brushless motors. :confused:

The 200 watt 5800 just lacks grunt compared to Lehners 700 watt 5300.

This quote for one is not entirely true. It is true in the fact that the Novak makes approx. 200 watts at max power and that the Lehner 5300 can make approx. 700 watts at max power. The problem is that max power has nothing to do with it being sensored or sensorless.

It does have everything to do with the fact that the Novak is only rated for 6-7 cells where the Lehner can handle more than twice that number. Total cell count may be limited by sensored systems though.

There is no way that the Lehner is putting out 700 watts of power with 6 cells. I would venture to say that the Lehner is much closer to 200 watts on 6 cells. :eek:

How many consumers are ever going to put together 12 cell packs, unless they are running an E-Maxx or similar vehicle?

Most people that purchase the brushless systems are going to use a 6 cell pack 99% of the time and the simple reality is that most of your brushless systems are going to be fairly similar in overall power when running 6 cells. Some are going to be faster than others, but not light worlds faster as many try and state.

I run a Novak SS that I have been running in an Associated B3 (now it's in a Losi XXX-4) and I run with a bunch of friends on some very fast tracks. Most everybody has Novak SS's, but one guy has a Hacker 10T (used to have the 8T before it died on him). On the track there is little to no difference between the speeds of his Hacker and my Novak. Granted he's running a T3 and I was running a B3, but compared to the others running T3's with Novaks he didn't have any speed advantage over them either. All buggies/trucks are running on 6 cells.

Now granted he has the potential of going much faster with extra cells and we have not done top speed drag racing on the street, but overall on the same power source they have similar speeds.

As far as prices dropping, it's all a matter of competition. As long as the cheapest system on the market is in the $220.00 range (and is selling well) and nobody is challenging them with something cheaper the price will stay at that level. When somebody comes out with a competitive system to the Novak for $150.00 then you will see Novak drop the price of the Super Sport to $150.00 (though it will probably be re-named and have a few cosmetic changes) and they will introduce something with a bit more power to take it's place in the $220.00 range.

Anyway, just some random thoughts...:rolleyes:

k_sw31

11-26-2003, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by End Overend
It appears that there is some mis-information going on with this thread concerning power output between sensored and sensorless brushless motors. :confused:

To my knowledge, sensorless motors do have a power advantage over sensored designs. Sensorless motors have even more torque and rpms than sensored motors.

This is what I remember reading awhile ago. If something to that effect wasnt true, what would sensorless motors be manufactured?

End Overend

11-26-2003, 02:59 PM

To my knowledge, sensorless motors do have a power advantage over sensored designs. Sensorless motors have even more torque and rpms than sensored motors.

This is what I remember reading awhile ago. If something to that effect wasnt true, what would sensorless motors be manufactured?

I'm not saying that sensored and sensorless motors have the same output, though I would say that they are closer than most people make it out to be on the same number of cells.

I can guarantee that a sensorless 540 sized brushless motor does not put out 500 more watts of power than a sensored brushless motor on the same number of cells.

I can think of several reasons to make a sensorless motor system rather than a seonsored system.

One may be that a sensored system has cell limitations on it that a sensorless system does not. That means that you can make the sensorless system more powerful by adding more than 6-7 cells. This cators to those where speed is the end all and there is no need to worry about the handeling of a car unless it's going in a straight line (generally a ST or buggy isn't going to handle all that great if it's carrying 12 cells).

Another reason may be that it's easier and generally more reliable to make a sensorless system. Sensored designs take more computing power, more wires, more parts, which means more things to go wrong. This takes more time and energy to engineer than a sensorless design. That makes it less cost effective to design.

My big problem is that people are stating max power ratings with out and regard to giving the whole truth behind the numbers. Power output should be measured based on power per volt not on the total max power.

This means that people are being misled into how much power certian motors put out.

MikeMayberry

11-26-2003, 03:01 PM

Sensored and sensorless motor are only different in the way they comunicate with the ESC and vice versa. A sensorless motor has to be moving before the ESC knows what is going on, thus the slight jump at start up. The sensored motors and esc like the Novak are more precise at start up but none of which has anything to do with the power of the motor. That is determined by the rotor, stator, wire, winding, etc.

To clarify watt's to determain the watt input you take the current times the voltage. 7.2V @ 27.7A =200 watts. However, the output has to take the efficiency of the motor in mind therefor the watts out for a motor with 70% efficiency would be 140W.

There are so many factors with motors... what is the motors current at maximum efficiency? The higher the amperage the more watts the motor can put out. If you push the current too high over this the efficiency goes south quckly and the motor overheats.

While this program is for setting up brushless motors in aircraft it probably won't be long until something like it is available for cars. It is the coolest thing for knowing a starting point and what motor, battery, propeller, gearing combo will work the best. Check it out: http://brantuas.com/ezcalc/dma.asp

I'm currently using a Hacker C40 7 turn and have been very impressed with the performance. I also have many Hacker motors in my aircraft including one that uses 20 cells and pumps out over 1000 watts!

Mike.

MikeMayberry

11-26-2003, 03:08 PM

Oh... when will prices fall? Once the chineese motors make it into the market. The cheapest aircraft brushless motors were $120 two years ago and now you can get them for $59. Give it a year or two. I think you will also see cheaper controllers from companies like castle creations in the near future too.

Mike.

professor_griff

11-26-2003, 07:29 PM

A lot of good info but like what was said before and there are so many factors in comparing the motors.

There is no way that the Lehner is putting out 700 watts of power with 6 cells. I would venture to say that the Lehner is much closer to 200 watts on 6 cells.

At 55 amps for the lehner 5300 using the correct speed control at 7.2 volts it would put out 396 watts comparable to the Novaks 200 almost twice the power. It would take over 12 volts to hit the 700 watt mark. I apologize for not being more specific in my last post.

I still believe Orion will help be a deciding factor on lowing prices since they would be Novak's only real competition. It really all depends on what your LHS promotes on what you see in your area.

one guy has a Hacker 10T (used to have the 8T before it died on him). On the track there is little to no difference between the speeds of his Hacker and my Novak so that makes total sense considering that there both advertised and rated as 10 turn. Lehner and Hacker have multiple lines of motors that are rated differently some kv rated and some rated by wind/turn it's hard to find any actual comparison charts and hard facts, so word of mouth and first hand knowledge is what I go by.

JackANSI

12-28-2003, 10:29 PM

IMO the price of brushless will fall (to near the point of brushed motors) as soon as its easier to find a brushless motor than it is to find brushed motor.

But I doubt you'll ever see brushless motors as cheap as brushed motors just because with brushed motors they can still get money from you over the whole life span of the product. Brushless has a chance to not require much between the time you install it and the time you start looking for the next rung on the ladder.

Simple supply and demand.

The only thing that sucks about a brushless system: You really notice how much other stuff you end up breaking in a hard day of racing since you're not worried about the motor.

As far as which system is better, thats off-topic for this thread. But I personally only see a small difference in what you get when you look at all thats out there in a certain class. You've got your normal layout; entry-level, amateur, professional... In each there are several available systems, each is VERY comparable to the others. The best thing to do is to just look around and find someone using it just how you want to use it, then copy (and maybe add to it). With stuff this new you're really better off that way since no one has the perfect formula for it yet.

Billage

12-29-2003, 07:14 PM

What is the highest turn brushless system available right now?

I'm looking to get one but only have 1500 mah batteries haha... can't buy new ones either or i wouldn't be able to afford a brushless.

End Overend

12-29-2003, 08:09 PM

Your best bet would be the Novak Super Sport with the 4300 (or is it 4800) motor.

This should give you performance on par with a stock class motor and run times that are longer I would guess.

EvaderRacer76

12-30-2003, 12:52 AM

should i buy a Novak SS tommorow for $215 or should i wait for the prices to go down? i'm not that eager, and i probably won't use it much 'till spring and summer?

Craps

12-30-2003, 04:24 AM

Ran at 2 race tracks over the weekend, one track had 7 mod electric trucks with 2 running BL systems. My Hacker motor/ESC and the other was a Kontronik motor witha Hacker ESC. The other track I ran at had 6 mod electric trucks with 2 running BL systems, my Hacker stuff and the other was a Novak SS system, which won the race when my rear wheel nut stripped while leading by almost a lap on the field.

The other race I finished 2nd to a guy with a 12 turn brushed motor that runs all over the country. The other BL truck finished 4th with diff coming out of it.

The BL system trucks at both tracks used my Li-Po batteries in they're trucks for the mains (5 minutes). It looked funny to be the only electric trucks using the 3 minute warm up to practice using the track while the nickel battery trucks had to carry they're trucks to the starting grid area saving that nickel battery juice to race on.

I don't see the price dropping to soon as long as demand is as high as it is for this great equipment and there is more competition for Novak in the low end budget systems. Try to find a Hacker Master Comp ESC right now, you'll have to get on a waiting list due the huge demand for these.

Once you go Brushless and Li-Pos, you will never go back to brushes and nickels again! The future is here to have 20 to 30 minute electric mains to make the gas guys drool over! BL and Li-Pos are starting to catch on and with numbers, they can't be ignored!

chuckwagon123

12-30-2003, 10:06 AM

Prices wont drop for a bit. I think they're value is on par with brushed motors with an esc. My guess is that Orion is not a stupid company and wont try a low cost pricing method for a product with growing demand. Like it was said above wait two years or so. Right around the time something new comes out. I belive that is how normaly turns out with new technology. After what is called in marketing the early adopters all have a BL systems it will take a lower price to capture the rest of the market. Orion wont under cut Novak to gain market share. The might offer a differnet type of BL system. No point in competing directly with a company so well established in a particular area.

nascarfreak88

12-30-2003, 07:05 PM

supply and demand, my brotha, supply and demand................

i feel brushless will be the cheapest and at it's peak, when they come in a RTR.

Fastcar

12-31-2003, 04:09 PM

The price of brushless will fall when people relize that you can run faster with a brushed motor.......

professor_griff

12-31-2003, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Fastcar
The price of brushless will fall when people relize that you can run faster with a brushed motor.......

Thats kinda funny if I do recall the land and water speed records are held by brushless motors....

Craps

01-01-2004, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by Fastcar
The price of brushless will fall when people relize that you can run faster with a brushed motor.......

I find this funny also, since comparing a brushed motor to a brushless is like comparing the Wright brothers first airplane to an F-18 fighter.

Oh let's see that brushed motor hold up for a 40 minute non-stop run using Li-Po batteries.

Fastcar

01-01-2004, 08:27 AM

brushless is for people that don't want to have to true a comm and have fun, Of course a brushed motor won't last 40 mintues.......
Land record is set by Chris Collins 112 MPH with a dragster(brushed motor as I do recall, correct me if I'm wrong)
A TC3 ran a 96MPH pass with a brushed motor and 14 cells. Would have went faster if a TC3 was straight axle car like the other pan car that went 111MPH.
Also brushed motors aren't made to handle Li-Po batteries.

I drag race rc cars, Guys have ran 80MPH in 132 feet. The speed record is set in 300 feet right?
Another track and a half. Not saying brushless is slow but it hasn't proved itself by running 80 MPH in 132 feet like brushed motors have done many times.

mtrsprt

01-01-2004, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by Fastcar
Not saying brushless is slow but it hasn't proved itself by running 80 MPH in 132 feet like brushed motors have done many times. You make some interesting points.

I don't think anyone has really tried to configure a few drag brusless setups yet, but I am sure, with the right choice of motor, and a crap load of cells, they too, would be at the top of the records in 132'.

Fastcar

01-01-2004, 09:59 AM

I heard someone tried a brushless drag setup. Didn't get any feedback on what happend.
I'm sure they will be around this year.

I hope RC car action will be at one of the IEDA races to cover these super fast drag cars!!!!

mtrsprt

01-01-2004, 10:33 AM

I watched a few videos of those dragsters you run, and boy, the acceleration is awesome!!!!!!

What type of motor/cell configuration do you guys run? Also, what are the limits with classes for motor/cells?

I drag race my street driven mustang into the 10.89@128.3 mph zone at the strip, so you can tell how I love anything that has some good acceleration to it.

Fastcar

01-01-2004, 10:58 AM

I'll PM the rules and motor specs to you

mac0326

01-01-2004, 12:02 PM

Brushed motors still have the advantage in drag racing. Brushless controllers have a very short delay at takeoff(drag racing is won by fractions of a second). Regardless of which type holds the speed record(either type could achieve this in the right vehicle with the right setup), brushless makes the most sense to me(outside drag racing). It is proven that a given brushless motor is more efficient and powerful and requires MUCH less maintenance than its brushed counterpart. The price is even pretty close for comparable setups. The only reason I even own brushed motors at this point is because some places I race won't allow brushless motors. I really hate motor maintenance and hung brushes!

JackANSI

01-01-2004, 12:31 PM

Too many gremlins in brushed motors waiting to jump at you. Once brushless has as much time under its belt as brushed does now, there will be no point to keep brushed motors. Except to sell to those who have spent a fortune on motor upkeep equipment and to make people who are scared of the future comfortable. (and to make money off suckers and newbs).

Accept it, brushless is the future. Just as nitro really took off, brushless will do the same.

Fastcar

01-01-2004, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by JackANSI
Too many gremlins in brushed motors waiting to jump at you. Once brushless has as much time under its belt as brushed does now, there will be no point to keep brushed motors. Except to sell to those who have spent a fortune on motor upkeep equipment and to make people who are scared of the future comfortable. (and to make money off suckers and newbs).

Accept it, brushless is the future. Just as nitro really took off, brushless will do the same.

Something must be wrong with this guy calling people gremlins.

Until brushless proves itself that its the fastest type motor around then we'll say brushless is better.
But right now brushed motors can't be beat.

JackANSI

01-01-2004, 01:10 PM

Be sure to hold onto that thought. With that you'll make a great guide/presenter in an RC history museum someday. :)

professor_griff

01-01-2004, 03:47 PM

Hmmm didn't see the Collins thing thanks for pointing that out!
Almost 2 mph difference so there both pretty close. Those drag motors are taken apart and rebuilt after every run pretty much from what I've been told though. Cliff probably just looked at his motor and thought "yeah it's still there, what a convienence I don't have to rebuild it now and that I can throw in some more batteries and do it again"

Well for now brushless rules the water at 120.7 mph by Joerg Mrkwitschka with one pass exceeding 122 mph, With his home build rigger.

brushless is for people that don't want to have to true a comm and have fun

oh come on now that is the most ridiculous thing I've heard.......

nascarfreak88

01-01-2004, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Fastcar
Something must be wrong with this guy calling people gremlins.

Until brushless proves itself that its the fastest type motor around then we'll say brushless is better.
But right now brushed motors can't be beat.

who cares if its the fastest????
whats the point on having the fastest thing around if you have to work on them all the time???
all-out speed means ardly anything to bashers, and newbs...... i dont race (YET, i want to get a BRUSHLESS droped into my RS4 MT before i try). But sill when i do, i know i dont have to worry about cutting the com to keep it in tip-top shape, and thats a BIG plus, no special equiptment to buy, no hassel....
Also, brush less motors are more consistant b/c noting is to wear out, if i i make the A-main, i know that when i start the A-main, the motor is going to perform like it did the last time i raced........

Billage

01-01-2004, 07:22 PM

Okay guys
i gotta know... why don't you just get nitro?

is it because you race with electric or what?

Compare the amount of money you spend to make a nitro car go fast with how much you spend for an electric to go fast.

mtrsprt

01-01-2004, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Billage
Okay guys
i gotta know... why don't you just get nitro?

is it because you race with electric or what?

Compare the amount of money you spend to make a nitro car go fast with how much you spend for an electric to go fast. If you want to be competitive in nitro R/C, you have to spend just as much money as the electrics guys too. Most the time, electrics are faster also, but most people do not realize this.

My RB WS7ll cost me $300.00 dollars. Thats just for an engine. Add air filter assembly, new fuel lines, aluminum clutch, springs, flywhel, etc, and your at the $400.00 mark. So don't ever say fast nitro is cheaper than electric.

JackANSI

01-01-2004, 08:43 PM

I actually have several nitros. I went back to electric mostly because I spent way too much of my time cleaning up before I could even get to fixing anything I broke. Even if I didn't break anything I had to wipe the thing down very well before taking it inside, in the car, anywhere. Clean clean clean.

With the electric I can just make a quick pass with a swiffer cloth and alot of the dust is gone. The big downfall with electric vs nitro is I can't just pull over to the side of the road and race around when I see a nice spot. Keeping a battery fresh for use on a moments notice while in a car isn't easy. Nitro just means carrying a little fuel bottle. I often keep the Savage 25 in the trunk more than the TA04-TRF due to that fact.

But when I plan on racing around, the nitro RC's tend to not get any runtime because I'm having way too much carefree fun with the electric cars, especially since going brushless.

NitroBoy24

01-01-2004, 09:38 PM

ok,
Put 14 cells on the best/fastest brushless around in a chassis that ways jack shiznit, speed test it, and THEN start saying that brushed motors cant be beat. Jeez, I mean who wouldnt want to rebuild a motor every other run because its a low turn brushed one :confused: :rolleyes:

I used to fly electric planes and man it was soo much easier to start it, clean it, etc compared to my AE GT. No pull-starts snapping, glow plugs dying, glow startes dying, breakin one of the million parts that are involved with the engine, etc...But I love the sound of a 2-stroke flying down my block, the smell of the exhaust (I dont purposely inahle it though :D), and the fact people are really impressed when they see a gas-powered r/c for the first time. (But I should have everything I need to make my gt a non pullstart around Jan. 12 from tower so less hassle there)

However,
Im probablly getting a RTR T4 this January/bday and hopefully going with a Novak SS. I'll probablly get 4-5 packs so I can have one in the truck, one charging on my cheapo charger, one on my nice extremely fast one, and another one or two "on deck". Ill probablly pick up two $20 car batteries from Checkers Auto so I can do this. That way if I do find a good bashing spot Ill be just about guarenteed to have one or two packs ready to be ran.

If you want to make a nitro or electric fast your going to spend just as much money to do this. If you BL on an electric you dont have to worry about motor maintence but when you have nitro engine thats a whooole different story. But if you were to add it up a fast nitro setup would probablly cost more then a fast electric setup.
Just my .02 cents on all this :)
John

Billage

01-02-2004, 06:25 PM

well my questions answered
thanks

bashing though, nitro's gotta be the better end of that deal

Troy Lyman

01-10-2004, 10:32 AM

The largest drawback to brushless right now is price. Sure they are fast but just like a guy who goes out to buy a 9T double realizes he needs a new speed control because his will only handle a 15T winds up walking out of the store with a 15T the $200 price of a brushless system makes then think twice. Even with a $130 speed control and a $60 mod motor you are still cheaper than a brushless system.

I know the arguments about motor maint. costs making up that difference really quickly but the majority of users (who happen to be bashers, not racers) don't keep up their motors like they should. They don't cut comms and rarely change brushes unless the motor has stopped working. They want cheap.

The brushless technology will improve and prices will drop. In the '80s when ESCs first came out you couldn't touch one for under $1,000! Now, you can find ones that are better than those early ESCs for under $40! It took about 3-5 years (and Novak) for the ESCs to come down to affordable ranges (like the $99 mark for the T-4). And they got better over time. Brushless will go the same route eventually since you are seeing so many people start to use them. (Thanks, again, to Novak)

My advice, if you really want brushless and the cost doesn't bother you, go for it. Otherwise, stick with your brushed motors for a while and see what developes.

Just my $.02.

JackANSI

01-10-2004, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Troy Lyman

My advice, if you really want brushless and the cost doesn't bother you, go for it. Otherwise, stick with your brushed motors for a while and see what developes.

I do agree to that point. No matter what, waiting is only a good thing. Either the prices will far, or the technology will advance, and both might be true the further along time moves. Getting in now is definitely a "cool" thing to do, especially if you plan on taking it far (like competition).

For bashing around the brushless may be a bit expensive for most. But no one can deny that its only going to get bigger and better from here. IMHO 99.9% of advancements in brushed technology have already occured. I have to put brushless at about 40%. especially since most brushless ESC's use a ton of controller chips in parallel, and no company make a single brushless controller chip of the load capacity that is required for RC. Once integration really takes hold on these systems, you'll see faster, better, cheaper in action.

Also once brushless market gains hit a certain point you'll see the design of cars and trucks change to better suit brushless motors and ESC's. Right now it seems a vast majority of cars and trucks have designs that allow people to use brushed motors with ease. Brushless motors seem to not require the same allowances. In turn that will let designers of these chassis make some interesting improvements in their designs.

With the low maintainance nature of the motors, access to them won't need to be as easy. While easy access is nice, its not always the best design.

Add Li-Poly batteries to that mix. You'll see some very great cars with near perfect balance, power, and stiffness. Again those changes will take a long time because its a whole new ball of wax and no RC company wants to make a car that flops. They will need to ease in the changes or use racing versions (like TRF) to get the new changes out to the customers that understand the benefits more. There are a ton of people I've found that just want to resist the changes because they don't understand how they work anymore.

Anyway....

You can pry my brushless system from my cold dead hands!!!! :cool: