1/8th scale Electric Racing!!! [Archive] - Page 2

Craps

06-20-2004, 10:11 AM

Rotary Rocket
I would love to sell the slipper and the mounting plates that I had custom made, but you might get mad at me. My opinion is the plates are a little too heavy and make the center of gravity of the buggy higher like a T-Maxx. I also don't think there is any advantage to running the slipper that I broke the little collar that retains the slipper's spring on the shaft. I have close to $400 in the slipper and the mount together that is alot to pay for, but if you want it both I will let you have them as is for $200 plus shipping cost. You will need to add a couple of 3mm screws for mounting and to replace the ones I robbed putting my old one back in.

Now my problem is the 20 tooth hardened steel pinion gear is way too big for the stock 46 tooth spur gear that is making the motor heat thermal the system in about 6 minutes. I quess I will have to have some 15 and 16 tooth custom made hardened steel gears made. If anybody is interested and depending on how many I have made, they will cost around $50 to $70 each, but that should cure the thermalling problem.

I also found my throttle clitch. I cut the plastic cover off of the ESC and found the brown wire was loose. A little solder on the wire and I also replaced the 3 dinged up capacitors and it is good to go.

The C50 10XL motor is a tight fit, but I can lay both batteries flat in the tray.

WARNING! If you go to a track with a long straightaway like I did last night, clear the spectators back away from the end of the long straightaway. I almost hurt somebody due to the huge amount of top speed this thing has along with it weighs about a pound more than the gas buggies. I let a couple of pros run it a little bit too. They could quad a set of jumps that the fast gas buggies had trouble triple-singleing. This thing is insanely fast.

Rotary Rocket

06-20-2004, 11:51 AM

WOW, jumping quads...man that buggy must have some serious speed, and torque. :eek:

Thanks for the heads up on the "heavy" plates. My idea of 1/8 BL buggy is to do it as light as possible.

So how much would you want for just the slipper? Can the broken coller be fixed?

Craps

06-20-2004, 09:32 PM

I quess you can replace the collar on the "Dominator" diff and I it is still new barely used. $50 plus shipping.

I think the center buggy diff is fine and the new hardened steel gear I am making should be the fix. The 20 tooth pinion is hardly showing any wear and the 15 and 16 tooth gears should be the fix on the motor thermalling problem.

I raced it today and my novice buttt broke a rear "A" arm, 3 sets of wing mounts and 2 rear body mounting post. I let 2 more pro drivers try it and had them studdering like scooby-doo describing the insane power and speed that is almost too much for them to handle.

If anybody is interested in those hardened steel gears, I am making some extra ones and should have the cost next week some time.

Rotary Rocket

06-21-2004, 12:05 AM

Craps,

Can you please email me at LB9731@sbc.com.

I have some additional questions about the Dominator diff.

Thanks.

Craps

06-21-2004, 08:58 AM

I need to warn most of guys building a buggy with 22.2 volts and C50 10XL motor, you had better be a very good driver or you will buy alot of parts to repair it like I am doing. The crashes are huge and very fast that a gas buggy does even come close in comparision.

The battery/motor combination is way overkill with more power than the best pro drivers in the world can handle. But that is the way I like it!

Craps

06-22-2004, 06:35 AM

Anybody interested in the 15 and 16 tooth hardened steel mod 1 pitch gears with a 5 mm bore that are custom made to work on RCs?

racinlosi

06-22-2004, 11:36 PM

I might be! The B50 8S has a 5mm bore for the pinion, right? And does it come with the set screw? And how much. I need to see if I will have the money for it...I might be interested in it...

Chase023

06-23-2004, 04:11 AM

Whats the specs on that Hacker C50 XL 10T???

Wattage?
Torque?
Cell Range??
Etc!

Craps

06-23-2004, 06:09 AM

Whats the specs on that Hacker C50 XL 10T???

Wattage?
Torque?
Cell Range??
Etc!

Here is some info with prices from Chris Fine's web site: http://www.finedesignrc.com/motors.asp

and here is more Hacker specs: http://www.finedesignrc.com/hackerspecs.htm

Prices, weights and rpm/volt are listed on both of these. To save a little money you can buy the Nemesis motor from Jamie at www.starluckrc.com or buy the Hacker directly from www.hackerbrushless.com

Craps

06-23-2004, 06:19 AM

I might be! The B50 8S has a 5mm bore for the pinion, right? And does it come with the set screw? And how much. I need to see if I will have the money for it...I might be interested in it...

The B50 and C50 series motors have a 5 mm shaft. If you have not bought the motor yet, spend a little more and get a C50 motor that has the end caps fastened to the can with screws and has heat sinks made on the can. The B50 motor I had trouble keeping the end cap on it and had to make a cradle for it.

I hope to have a price on the gears next week from the machine shop that is making them for me and they will have a 4 mm set screw with it. I am trying to keep the price down by making a small quanity of these to resell.

Stay tuned for the price that I am quessing will be somewhere between $30 to $50 range.

Craps

06-23-2004, 03:21 PM

Why has this thread got so many views at over 13,000 and so few posting questions and answers?

Chase023

06-23-2004, 04:38 PM

Maybe people just looking for info.. I don't think people like to post unless they can contribute or have some questions. Some just post to say Hey but who knows.

Thanks for the links.
I have bought C-50s in the past directly from Hacker before and I don't think I would buy from a distributor when the prices are the same or very similar. Might as well buy it from the US Source.
Those Nemesis motors look cool but I will stick with my new Plettenbergs for now.
I just wanted to see how much power those Hacker XLs were producing. Hackers are 2 pole brushless motors correct?

DualBL

06-24-2004, 03:27 AM

yes, hacker's are 2pole.
Plett's are 4pole, and BMI's new Chili-Pepper motors will be 4pole also.
-Nick

Craps

06-24-2004, 03:47 AM

2 pole or 4 pole?

What is the pros and cons of both?

I have heard that 2 pole is faster, but not as effiencient. I don't own a 4 pole motor, so I don't have anything to share on this.

Chase023

06-24-2004, 04:09 AM

Actually those Chili Pepper Brushless Motors are 3 Phase 2 Poles well the CP20Ls are but maybe their newer models might be 4 poles.

I think I will have to look into these Chili Pepper Brushless motors.

Mr. Constructor

06-24-2004, 05:05 AM

as for the 2 or 4 poles:

the difference is the magnetic power output per turn, the 4 poles have less turns (unlike they´re very low winder ones wich ARE available from Pletti too) but do produce more power per turn (meaning: torque) as the 2 poles when the rpm is the same.
But on the other hand the high rpm will draw seriously more amps, but in lower to mid rpm the amp draw is almost the same than in a 2 pole but with better torque (little better efficency)

the formula is quite easy: 2 pole "standart" 4 pole almost double the torque but mostly half the rpm, 6 pole 3 times the torque and 1/3th the rpm, 8 is with 4 times and 1/4th and 10 pole are 5x and 1/5th and the last thing is the 14 pole motor (the 8 to 14 pole motors are ALL LRK principles, as they do produce very much power (remember my Kanai 2 with a direct drive (no 2nd gearing) 10 pole Torcman LRK with 12 cells ??) but slow rpm.

for a car use the 2 and 4 poles will be OK, in 5th or something very big and heavy the lrk comes better in, as the power is smoother transferred, the (rest) drivetrain of my E MAXX (also a Torcman 10 pole) and my Kanai really do hold the power (and both are not that light at all, i do have much lighter 8th ones, but not any tougher one !!

So in general: 2-4 pole for up to 8th and everything above needs a LRK with 6-14 poles (some of my 5th do have a 6 pole, speed and power is OK, was a very "old" model (the design is some time ago, maybe 6 years??)

Craps

06-24-2004, 09:41 AM

Thanks Mr. C!

You are always alot help on information.

Now what is a LRK motor and other sources of these bigger motors with more than 2 poles?

Thanks Again!
Tim H.

Rotary Rocket

06-24-2004, 10:18 AM

(remember my Kanai 2 with a direct drive (no 2nd gearing) 10 pole Torcman LRK with 12 cells ??) but slow rpm.

Mr.C, can you provide a link to the Kanai project?

I did not know a high enough torque motor existed that had two out put shafts which could power a 1/8th buggy. :eek: :D

This would totally solve ALL the pinion/spur gear issue, make the buggy that much lighter, and make the batteries fit so much closer to the center line of the buggy...

I am very interested (specially since it ran on 12 cells) in finding out more info.

Also if this motor ran on 12 cells, I guess I could use one of my Hacker Comp Car controllers for it?!

Thank you in advance.

Craps

06-24-2004, 11:01 AM

I am thermalling the C50 10XL motor in under 10 minutes with 22.2 volts and 20 tooth pinion with a 46 tooth spur gear on the center diff. That is 2.3:1 ratio to the drive train and a 7.95 final ratio on the Mugen buggy, how is a 1:1 to working with out a huge strain on the motor causing it to thermal? Are you changing the diff gear ratios from the 3.46:1 ratio in my Mugen to something higher?

I am going to go with a 15/46 gearing that is 3.06:1 ratio to the drive train and after the diffs on both ends gives the Mugen a 10.58:1 final ratio. I need the higher ratio to cool the motor off or do you have a solution that could help on this besides fans and ice packs?

I would love to take out the center diff and just hook up both drive shafts to each end of the motor and have larger diffs on both ends with around a 10:1 ratio.

glassdoctor

06-24-2004, 12:51 PM

http://www.maxrivers.com/pricelist/torcman.asp#430

I was looking at these motors for this application. The 430-20...

There are other motors like these of course.

DualBL

06-24-2004, 01:01 PM

Donnie told me that the CP motors will be 4pole.. we were talking about the larger CP50L and CP50XL motors, not the CP20, or CP50. I'm not sure weather the CP50 will be 2 or 4pole. and there's also info on them on the www.rumrunnerracing.com message boards by Don.
-Nick

Craps

06-24-2004, 02:00 PM

Nick
Why couldn't we just take out the center diff like Mr. C. said and just hook the motor up directly to the drive shafts on each end of the motor? We may have to change the front and rear diff gear ratios to compensate for loss of the pinion gear and spur gear on the center diff.

I don't know how much stress this would put on the rotor of the motor without the center diff taking up some of the abuse of off-road racing.

glassdoctor

06-24-2004, 02:24 PM

The gear ratios are not too bad without the center diff because these motors are very low rpm. They are typically under 1000 k/v. So they are well suited for "direct drive".

The stress question is a good one. It's one of the reasons I put it on the back burner. My gut feeling is that it would be fine. The only difference with the setup is that the center diff can "unload" the stress between the front and rear.

The motor shafts could be supported in a mount the same way as a center diff, so I don't think that would be big problem... if the shafts are long enough.

Sounds like a cool setup. I haven't looked into it for a while now though. The crappy emaxx tranny is what got me thinking about it. :)

Chase023

06-25-2004, 05:30 AM

MR. C. Thanks for the explanation.

Do you have any specs or charts on torque rating of brushless motors?

Just curious!

Mr. Constructor

06-26-2004, 06:00 PM

Hm, normally not, i do not have the time to dyno test them, but normally some datas are in the technical or download area of the manufacturers, most Lehner Motors are listed !!
(some Hackers, Kontrik´s and Maybe others too !!)

You could then math a little around, if your type of motor is not listed, use the most datas in the specified area you can get, then try to calculate as narrow as you can, there might be good results then too even for a not tested motor !!

(that´s the way i do it when a motor/gear/car/esc combo has to be selected for new cars such as my 5th scale for exs. (the first ones where quite OK, but my latest ones where really a hit, the car now (as seen in my 5th electric thread (there will be new pics in the next days !!) it is around 6,7 kg and has 50 % more rpm at the same torque than a nitro 22ccm, THAT really IS a good thing !! (the chassis wasn´t totally tested but the latest pics will soon be seen there !!)

Good Luck !!

brutesparkfist

07-02-2004, 10:05 AM

Would a Warrior 7018 with a heatsink mod be sufficient to run a 1/8 at 21 volts? 80 amps x 21 volts=1680 watts. Wouldn't that be enough? How many watts would you say you run, Craps?

Re-Mix

07-02-2004, 10:44 AM

The warrior 7018 would never handle that i don't think. I would go with a warrior 9018 at least.

DualBL

07-02-2004, 12:58 PM

I'm not sure if any of you have seen Krauterbutter's emaxx videos?
with a basic 4200 on 12 cells, and a BK Micro 1895 controller, it flew, and from what I heard, he didn't ever have any problems w/ the controller.

another question, is how many amps were the Hacker Sport controllers? 60 or 80, I forget...
anyways, I don't see why a Schulze U-Force 75 wouldn't be able to be used in an emaxx or 1/8.. I havn't heard any probs with it, melting or anything, so from what I hear, it actually shuts down when it over heats, and is a very smooth controller.
you guys don't think it could handle a b50 10S or something similar on 12 cells?
-Nick

losifreak107

07-03-2004, 02:12 AM

would a pair of d6's work at all i have one in my xxx-4 g+ and it a rocket just a idea for guys on a really tight budget (and nimhs no lipos) and a pair of escs both using 7 or 8 cells)

Mr. Constructor

07-03-2004, 03:44 PM

As for the 21 V in a Warrior, hoiw do you generate them, useing a lipo ??
(this esc has NO cut off mode, don´t use it under these very hard conditions)

the esc itself might be able to handle the Voltage, but it will be on the very hard end of the esc, it will work !!
(i´m using 2 off them as a converted (shown in another thread) to bigger heatsink in my 5th cars, and it will pull the 18 cells at around 1.7 KW, but it will really need a big heatsink, so try to use a warrior 9918, it will be a lot cooler, and it already has agood heatsink on it !!

this power will be more than "more than enough" power in a 8th, i use it to power my 5th cars !!!
(your drivetrain will be easily crashed and the car might be undriveable unless you really practice a lot driving those rockets (and crashing parts too)

All my 8th BL conversions (5 now) are using 12 cells, and it is way enough, do the speed in another way, use lighter materials, clever chassis design and so on, it is cheaper on all parts and the result is almost the same (OK 21 v cars might be faster, but they might not last longer)

Craps

07-03-2004, 07:32 PM

(OK 21 v cars might be faster, but they might not last longer)
That's because they are so darn fast when they hit something at that insane speed, something is going to break!

But it will turn heads and drop jaws when it is running.

I have the need for speed!

Mr. Constructor

07-04-2004, 04:00 AM

Yes absoltely yes, speed is great anyways, but i meant the new ones in this BL sector, they read about the 8th racing, then wanted a similar one, and at the end they spend over 1000 USD for the whiole car and electrics and they might not be able to handle this, as the technology is another thing, but then the driving !! these cars really are way more powerful than any nitro i ve seen, but these speeds should be handled !!
So a first timer would be better in doing a 10th car conversion first (the huge esc could be used in the 8th later, only a new motor has to be organized)

anyway, these 8th are the way to go, it really makes that much fun !!

savagehardcore

07-08-2004, 08:06 PM

how fast do these things go and how much runtime do u get???

Mr. Constructor

07-09-2004, 04:17 AM

It depends greatly on the used parts, but a top speed of up to 60 Mph and a top driving time of around 15-20 min could be possible (but will then REALLY draw a lot of MONEY !! ;-) )

the use of lipoly cells and a very low weight (carbon is recomended) and the use of several high end esc and motor parts is an absolute must have feature then, if you wanna drive a 8th with good power (similar to the 8th buggys) then you might use "only" a normal car and convert it and use it with a hard motor and a well esc and then 12-18 cells (sub c)

all other tuning parts could be made or purchased later (several useful parts are not available, so you´ll have to make them on your own (motor holder plate, maybe new carbon chassis, battery holder for the number of cells (in general 12 cells is ver good, as it is enough power and is easy to use as most people have more than 1 6 cell pack, then wire them in series and you´ll easily use these packs in your 8th too !!

Make shure that you do not start until you´ve made several (hopefully good) thoughts over the following terms:

1. resuse or new built the drivetrain (effects motor decision and overall layout)

2. wich motor (is it a 550 sized one or even bigger ??)

3. wich esc (space IS limited in those cars too)

4. wich car in general has good parts availability and has many aftermarket parts (wich could become seriously if you wanna make the conversion itself there might be some aftermarket parts needed (and then to be modified)

5. how many could be done by your own skills, how many parts will be bought (that differs from car/layout to the others, there are a few cars with easier conversionablities (s**t word i know ;-) )

Good cars are: Kyosho MP series, Ofna Hyper 7 (or all the others from Ofna), the Ofna Dominator, Carson King of Dirt/Mud Master, Mugen MBX 5 (or even the 4 is OK).

All the above mentioned cars do offer various parts to modify them and use them in your converted car, there will be only few things left you´ll have to make on your own: motor holder, battery holder, that´s it !!

(use Modul 1 5mm bore pinions for the motor to gear conversion, all cars do have the modul 1 gears and most motors will have a larger 5mm shaft, to get the power better transferred)

Chewbacca

07-09-2004, 03:46 PM

Since I have yet to drive a 4 WD offroad car I might be wrong but woulnd handeling suffer from that step, since there would be no diff to compensate for the different rpms front and back would need for a smooth drive? I know the difference between front and back will be much smaller than the difference between left and right side in a sharp turn, but still...

Mr. Constructor

07-09-2004, 04:49 PM

Craps

07-12-2004, 12:02 PM

There are pros and cons about that, cons is : there might be the chance that 3 wheels hang in the air, then the car will not move every energy is transferred to the 4th wheel, and all my 8th and even my 5th conversion run without a center diff, it really is OK, but it is not needed that much !!

The drivetrain has to hold little more stress, but that was taken in accomodation when designing my drivetrains (they´re mostly built out of titanium)

So the loss of the center diff isn´t that bad thing, chjeck the vids out on Dual BL´s new HP, they showed my cars too !!

(OK speed seemed alittle low in the vids, but that was corrected now !! ;-) )

This has got me pumped up about removing the center diff??? I like that idea and think you are right.

How can I lock up the center diff using the gear and housing with the out drives?

I should have my custom made hardened gears in this week that will be made from T1 tool steel that will be hardened with a set screw. This gear should almost never wear out.

I have been out of town alot on business and have the project sort of sidelined until I can do more testing. I still want a 1 hour 1/8th scale buggy, but I may have to change batteries once during that hour to keep the battery weight down.

Popop

07-12-2004, 01:07 PM

Robert, where's your vid ?

DualBL

07-12-2004, 05:54 PM

popop, email me @ admin@dualbl.com and I'll send you his videos. I can't seem to keep the video's uploaded on a server, because of bandwidth problems.. I think I'll have to do ****** eventually.
-Nick

DualBL

07-19-2004, 04:49 PM

here's some pics of Racin Losi's MBX-R2

DualBL

07-19-2004, 04:53 PM

pic 2

DualBL

07-19-2004, 04:55 PM

pic 3
http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45978

DualBL

07-19-2004, 04:56 PM

pic 4
-Nick

strodedawg

07-22-2004, 09:29 AM

i have a gs torm available that was converted to electric if anyone wants to get one.

racinlosi

07-22-2004, 01:16 PM

Thanks DualBL for putting them up for me! But for some reason, the third one didn't work. :confused:

If you want to see a bigger/clearer picture, just PM/email me, and I will show you them. Or you can just search for racinlosi on RC-pics....

racinlosi

07-22-2004, 01:19 PM

All it needs now it the Super E-Truck(not BL), then it will be running, and I can get all of the bugs out of it, and get ready for the BL to come in it, so it will end up being BL after all still :)....

Craps

07-22-2004, 01:25 PM

Hey Nick!

My buggy will kick you're buggy's butttt!!!! :D :D

But we have to race for 20 minutes so I can stop for repairs from all my crashing I mean quality driving skills!!! :D :D

What motor's are using there?? Looks like they have fans built in to them??? Please get some batteries for that thing. Those little bitty, heavy, low juice nickels are just not going to get the job done!! :p :D

Just kidding!

Good Luck!!!

Hey!!! Wait a minute! We need to have the FIRST ANNUAL WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP ELECTRIC 1/8TH SCALE BUGGY RACE !!!

We could be a World Champion!!!!

DualBL

07-22-2004, 04:58 PM

^^ tisk tisk Tim...
those aren't pics of my buggy... (i'm not ever going brushed again, and i'm also never going sub-c again..)
those are some pics of RacinLosi's buggy. which i must say is looking very clean.
my own buggy has kinda turned into a "truggy" project if you will...
it's going to be alot longer, and too wide for it to be classified as a buggy... and I'll most likely have to run a truck body.
what I'm designing is at http://www.dualbl.com/other/tc3style/
i'll prolly be running 2 smaller motors/controllers, in dual setup, so I'll be able to run UForce controllers.
it'll use Hyper7 suspension, and diffs, and shocks, then diff/motor mounts, chassis, lower arm mounts, and upper shock mounts (revo-style rockers) will all be custom.

-Nick

racinlosi

07-22-2004, 07:23 PM

Make fun of my buggy, will ya? :p ....

This is just a test setup for now, I am going Brushless no matter what! Little dinky Titans(that's what they are, just the little aluminum tag that they have on them is gone, extra wieght) arn't going to move this thing around forever, lol. I do have a B50 8S, no controller for it though, but I think that will be a little small, but gives me some time to use 12 cells and a BL for the time untill I get a bigger BL to move this thing around some more. :D ....

But look at all the extra room I have for the ESC and reciever to fit into! lol. I am trying to keep it as clean as possable so I can fit more stuff into it if I needed/wanted to....

Also, no doubt will your buggy kick my buggies "butttt" right now, but who knows when I go BL. I just hope I can keep this thing under control when I do. :rolleyes: ....

mcalpinerc

07-28-2004, 09:46 AM

goto www.brainlubeonline.com and click on "ALX-2 Prototype speculation"

it is a 1/8 scale electric that should keep costs down when in mass production phase. It also has a very innovative steering system.

Please give me your input,
mcalpinerc@yahoo.com

thanks

AM
www.brainlubeonline.com

Craps

07-28-2004, 11:26 AM

racinlosi

08-20-2004, 04:23 PM

I now bring the dead back to life.
*
**
***
****
*****
***
*T*
*T*
*T*
***

Craps

08-21-2004, 06:21 AM

I am supposed be picking up the new pinion gears Thursday and I will be testing them this weekend. They are made of T-1 tool grade steel cut to my specs with a 4mm set screw and then hardened to make them almost bullet proof. If my test is successful this weekend, I will have a limited amount of these 15 and 16 tooth mod 1 pitch with a 5mm bore and a 4 mm set screw for sale if you guys are interested. I do have a price yet due to the final cost of the hardening process, but they should be in the $40 range each.

If you are seriously interested in these, contact me by e-mail at: crapsrc@netzero.com

Thank you

The first test of the gears went well yesterday and they are what I intended them to be. I put more laps on them yesterday than I ever made it with the stainless steel or carbon steel ones with no vivible signs of wear at all.

I did break or pull loose wires in 2 batteries yesterday that I have never done before. These were the Gen 2 Thunder Powers that I going to send back all 4 of my Gen 2 series Thunder Power batteries to be checked. I think somebody mentioned that they had problem with the first batch of Gen 2s.

I tested with a Pro driving it at Lance Norick's track where they have alot big 1/8th scale gas races yesterday. This is truely a Pro level track and one of the best in the country which may have lead to my battery problems. The first battery problem lead me to switching the pair of 11.1 volts that totaled 22.2 volts out for a pair of 7.4 volt batteries that totaled 14.8 volts. Huge difference and it made the buggy about equal to regular modified gas 1/8th scale with 14.8 volts.

Those of you that pre ordered the gears will have them with in a few days and those that have not ordered them yet, I have a few left if you still want one and you better not wait too long because I don't think I am going to have anymore made.

Update on the specs of these gears: M-2 tooled steel that is hardened to rockwell 62 for you machinist. 5mm bore, 4mm set screw, Mod 1 pitch and is completely machined to my specs with a little longer shank and the set screw in the right place over anything else you can buy for an 1/8th scale conversion.

Chewbacca

08-21-2004, 09:17 AM

Has anybody put anymore thought into using a low rpm/V high tourque motor with drive shafts exiting on both sides and thus eliminating the need for the cener diff??

Chewie.

DualBL

08-21-2004, 12:38 PM

Mr Constructor has. look for his posts. also, look here: http://s93886278.onlinehome.us/thumbnails.php?album=5
-Nick

Mr. Constructor

08-23-2004, 05:17 AM

As for this solution:

it really worked well, but the motor choice is very hard, as it MUST be a very good one, the power has to be OK in all ways, you cannot gear it !!! (only via the voltage !! ;-) )

overall it really IS a very good thing, easy, powerful, less parts to be destroyed, totally buletproof, but the choice of the motor is the key factor.

(if i would built a second one, i will use a even hotter motor, the speeds are great but i think the drivetrain could hold even more power !!)

This solution is only recommended if the chassis is extremely stiff and the motor is partly made out of titanium (as for the shaft and some inner parts in my case) then you´ll get a really tough buggy.

But my next one should be a more conservative one, i ´m planning on my next 8th conversion, but this takes time, i think it will be ready till next summer (if everything is working fine !! ;-) i really do wannna use some totally new things here combined with some good old technics !!

The planning has just begun, and there are other project ideas also, and i might not be able to make 3-4 projects a time, so i had to choose, damn thing !!! ;-)

If anybody wants to know more things about the center drive system, aks me, i will try to help ya out !!

racinlosi

08-26-2004, 12:04 AM

Mey not to BL for mine right now, but it's almost done. Pretty much it, but my ESC just fired, i think.:( Was trying to set it up, and it just wouldn't want to set up, and then that magical electrical smell filled the air, so now I am just hoping that it's a product failure so I can get a new on, or that everything is fine. :((it was the Supper E-Truck for all of the people that want to know)

Popop

08-26-2004, 02:44 PM

Hi Racinlosi
Once repaired, could you post some videos of the twin540 buggy ?
I'm just curious about its actual motion

"Courage"

racinlosi

08-26-2004, 03:14 PM

Yeah, i am hoping to get a vid of it. I wanted to run it today so badly, but the damn thing just went. So I am going to the club where I live at and see if anyone can help me out on Sunday. Kind of have to wait seeing Mtroniks is on vacation.:( But as soon as this thing starts running, that is my first prioity!

Popop

08-28-2004, 04:32 PM

I fried so many cars ESCs ...
When Amp is there along with 12cells, really, go for Schulze

The E-ven or the Brute Willys are living proofs of Schulze reliability
If you go Jeti, take a more rated ESC ...

SCHMACH

08-28-2004, 04:59 PM

does anybody know where i can get 24 pitch pinion gears? i'm converting my lightning rr to electric and i can't use a different spur on it because it seals the center diff...any help would be greatly appreciated.i forgot...they need to be for a standard 1/8 shaft

starluckrc

08-28-2004, 05:57 PM

That's mod 1 gearing.......almost impossible to find with a 1/8" bore. Most guys running something needing that kind of power run motors with 5mm shafts, then it's not a problem. 5mm bore mod 1 is easy to come by.

racinlosi

08-28-2004, 07:31 PM

Popop-The Super E-Truck is for Brushed motors and that's what I am running, the Titan's from the E-Maxx. It has around 560A rating if I remember corectally. So it should of easly taken those motors. But it never even setup right, that's what got me wondering what could of been the problem. :confused:

Popop

08-30-2004, 02:49 PM

The Maxx esc is ok for 20A motors ...
A single 700 could ruin this ESC

Don't be fooled by peak Amp ...

Andrewg

08-31-2004, 11:06 AM

Brushless motors with shafts e3xtening from both ends of the motor are avaialble - they are for helicopters the 2nd extension is for a fan

they current level drawn in helis is around 35 amps so such motors should suit cars well

Mr. Constructor

09-01-2004, 08:30 AM

As for 8ths i will recommend a 90A esc at minimum requierements, i drove several with a 70A but then only with an additional heatsink, and let it cool down after each run !!
I was testing the new Hacker, and even under my load of my tianium kanai 2 it was at 85 ° Celsius after continously runs, without a break (only the time it takes to change batterys) and THAT really took every abuse i could throw at it.
The Schulzes are always a good choice, but they´re costly, but they deliver the smoothest and best overall performance there is today !!
The new Hacker/Jeti ones are very small behind, they are better in 10th and now with the (coming out soon) new 12 cell big truck esc they´re on level with Schulze.
If you wanna use more than 12 cells (wich is not really useful, as the weight to power ratio goes down!!) you could only use Schulze, as they have the esc´s for such application.
The proto esc from Hacker is shown in my Mad Force thread, it was tested under the hardest condition in all my 8th cars, but the proto still is very huge, but normally the manufacture version will be smaller due to a new housing.

rhylsadar

09-01-2004, 08:45 AM

hi
here a small vid of a converted mp 7.5 using the 18.97kwf and plettenberg maxximum. by now setup with 12cells....

click and save as (http://62.2.107.106/~beat/Dateien/BLMP7.5.mpg) (16mb)

bye
rhylsadar

Andrewg

09-01-2004, 11:17 AM

Constructor I would like to chime in following what you have said and explain why this is necessary

very few people realise how low the resistance of most brushless motors are or the consequences.

For instance Hackers (and Lehner and Kontronik with similar rpm/v under 11S 10L and 9XL motors have under 10 milli-ohms of resistance. In a brushless motors that means on & volts these motors can draw up to 150 amps and still be running efficiently; on 15 volts this can rise to 155 amps. In practice this means without damage and often without excess heating.

That isnt stall amps thats amps around 50% of peak rpm. More than enough and for long enough to damage most controllers. In short poeple need to think up rather than down in terms on controller capability and think about good cooling.

Under 10 milliohms maximum efficeincy is at more 40amps (7v) to 60amps (14v) respectively. However most guys seem to want to run at amp draws around 30 amps. In short most people are choosing motors which are too hot - and not necessarily very efficeint over the amp range they want to run.

That means the optimum motors which are electrically reasonable loads on 14v are in the range:
B50-10XL to 11XL (1500-1400rpm/v )
B5012L to 13L (2013-1858 rpm/v
B50-14S to B50-15S (2600-2400rpm/v)
On 7v:
B50-11L to 10L (2119-2415rpm/v)
B50-13Sto 15S (2800-2400rpm/v)

These motor numbers seem somewhat less than I am seeing such as people putting 4200 rpm Lehner basics into 12 cell setups.

The message is motors have to be choosen careful and the controller be overated particularly where torque is required

Finally if you are thinking of a rev your guts out motor to go into your car -and you want 7 minute run times on 3300 ie 30amps most of these motors have poor efficiency at 30 amps well down from the mide 80%+ of which they are capable. It looks good on paper but an apparently milder motor may give a stouter performance.

Mr. Constructor

09-01-2004, 12:25 PM

Absolutely Correct, that was the major reason why i build a LRK direct drive 8th buggy, to get much more out of the Amp (to say in clear words: get a better efficiency) that led to this car, and it finally is OK, the V/Rpm could be a little higher but i had to choose a motor from the beginning up, nobody even the manufacturer himself was able to tell me a good motor choice for this never before done thing (maybe others did so too, but i do not know of anybody who powers his car like this (and what a heavy and big one too)
so the choice was hard, the few missing rpm´s aren´t that thing the final thing: it worked the AMP draw was less and the batterys where OK (only a few mAh left after the run, normally there arer around 300 mAh left in average settings (brushed or brushless, it´s equal!!)

The worst thing is that i cannot change the gearing at all, maybe this will be solved in my next car, who knows . . . . ;-)

greetings from Hamburg

Popop

09-01-2004, 02:16 PM

Hi Andrew and Constructor

1/ What continuous Amp and Peak Amp do you estimate for a go-everywhere (sport universal) 12cells powerplant ?
I mean a BL combo that would have the "market advantage"

2/ What would be its eff. advantage over a brave single700 setup ?
(I think here about some possible Electric-in-mind 1:8 kit cars ... where a basic motor would be included )

Many thanks
Bye

Mr. Constructor

09-02-2004, 06:11 AM

As for a ESC, go with the new Hacker esc that will come out soon, or a Schulze U Force 75 or a Schulze 18.97 (or even higher, could also be a 12.97) these are the ones that are near by bullet proof, but all do cost a lot of money, the only thing i haven´t tested yet is the electronic model 110A version wich should be able to handle it too, but the software is the ?
(but you are a lot nearer to this manufacturer than we all are, i ´m thinking of one esc from this firm, maybe in the next project (should be over the winter time !!)

as for a Motor there could not be such a general task, in 8th it will be a Hacker B 50 L (with the wind between a 2500 RPM/V to 4000 RPM/V Motor for the use with a 12 cell power System (wich is enough, if every Part is well choosen (the proven statement will follow, today i have made the vid of the 5th F1 Race Car with "only" 12 cells, it will show what i mean, watch it in the next few weeks on Popops and dual Bl server (i will send it to them asap as it is edited))

the motors could be from different Manufacturers but the size and the RPM /V should be comparable to these above figures.

These are my experiences on 8th conversions and their Powersystems.

Andrewg

09-02-2004, 07:22 AM

Popup thats a good question and a hard one

my recs are to duplicate the 700's performance - and deliver good power and great torque at easy amp draws. My recs are for GP3300's however if people are going to lipo with 4.5 AH and up capacity go up a motor size ie from L to XL. This is solely because brushless motors will begin to run hot and most cant get heat out rapidly with out assistance hence the heatsink and finning on Hackers and other motors - and if a Hacker needs it then every other motor will too. Always duct cold air to the motor and controller.

As a rule of thumb to go brushless select a motor with a slightly higher kv than the 700 – this means you have higher efficiency, lighter weight and reduction gearing all working in your favour regarding torque and top end power. The 700 being about 1570 try 1600 as a bottom limit with a rotor of 30mm length or L size.

At these rpms the Ir and Io combinations present easy loads to controllers – a four pole will present an easier load still as it presents an easier electrical load. Also idle currents below 1 amp are good. However these are rules of thumb not rules.

S series or 20mm rotor motors are for 1/10ths - great power efficiency and speed and flexible amp levels and gearing gets the torque up - try using smaller celsl and see how fast these setups are.

For 1/8 L or 30 series can pump out 700 watts without being taxed too hard and bags of torque.

A friend uses a single B50- 8L in an E-Maxx runs 50 mph with it and couldn’t be happier. However this is much hotter setup than we are talking here and his experience of brushless goes back to the early 90’s and the truck is trick.

With a 1600 rpm/v motor Nemesis XL. Some of these motors have a decrease in efficiency as voltage rises – presumably due to high iron losses. This doesn’t affect most well known brands. So go a size larger after all they are cheap.

The Lehner Basic XL 1600 has its max efficiency at 40 amps at 14v which is close to 12 GP3300s - it’s putting out 450 watts - 100 more than the Graupner and from info I have found looks to be making more torque.

Closer to home have a look at the Electronic Model. These motors have higher impedances which tend to limit the huge amp loads but get their efficiency by running at very low idle draws. The Titan 1700 or 1900 if you can get it; Chronos 2900 Elios 3700 all have max efficiencies in the mid 30amps, nice and safe and you can run a slightly tall ratio or a little more advance and get more power without stressing things. Looks safe loads and at crawling spees look like the most efficient motors about.

Aveox 3624/2 (1800 rpm/v) can be geared down to 1600 and it will make 700 like torque and 100 extra watts. The 4 pole design makes it tractable and as flexible as an electric motor can get and easy on the controller.

The Mega 22/20/3 (1875rpm/v) with 6 poles will have maximum efficiency about 30 Amps run all day at 35amps, tolerate over gearing and make better top end power with less weight than a 700. The 22/30/2 (1770 rpm/v) will have monster flexibility – with a higher Io it likes to run in the 30-50 amp range. Both these motors appear to be easy loads and are available with 1/8 or 5mm shafts.

Also Kontronik make a 12 v series of FUN motors these like the Electronic model have lower Io’s so reach maximum efficiency as lower amp levels and remain efficient at very low amp levels.

Hackers are good B50-10XL 14L and 16S are pretty safe loads. With gearing the smaller motors will go close to the larger but in a 1/10 car would be far better in terms of power to weight ratios and handling

Most of these motors could use a good quality 40 amp controller IMO. However witha regualr 60-70 amp controller these should have 700 like reliability.

rhylsadar

09-02-2004, 08:24 AM

hi
i run a maxximum in my converted savage and my colleague in the converted kyosho buggy mp 7.5. the motor works absolutely great eventhough the weight and gearing are quite different in those two cars. i think the plettis are worth a thought. they aslo stay cooler than a hacker or lehner in the same application.
bye
rhylsadar

studysession

09-02-2004, 12:25 PM

I did not read all the posts as there are so many.

I do love the idea of 1/8 scale electric racing. I could easily get used to that. A dual brushless setup on a Hyper 7 would be sweet. :)

studysession

09-02-2004, 12:27 PM

pic 4
-Nick

DubBL - Do you have pics from the front showing the pinions and the spur - how they line up?

What pitch pinions did you use???

Popop

09-02-2004, 03:32 PM

Thanks a lot Robert and Andrew for your great replies

Concrning EM, the fact is I was unhappy with my Elios20 and Flash controler. I finally resold it some weeks ago at 50% even if the whole thing rarely ran ... I found important to mention EM as a BL manufacturer in my worldwide index (http://rcsaga.com/wwbl) but expressed my point of view to Mr Noro

To be frank, many french hobbyist were disapointed with EM escs, especially the airplane ones (quite only use of BL here). Earlier motors came with 6mm Ferro shafts (bend etc.) and unreliable magnet gluing (collapse etc.). This info was relayed by both shops (NPM for example) and end-users (racers etc.) ... They quite altered Mr Noro's products fame ... Nowadays, the ESCs seems still Jeti-made and motors really changed as the interesting rotative and marine ones

That said, Mr C., you remember when I asked you for a roto motor for my Dominator ... You didn't find it good ... I finally took an Hacker B50XL-like : Aveox 36/38/2 ... And find it a good buy (truely polyvalent in the Amp range I want)

I still would be happy to count on a "12cells universal" BL combo that could empower most of my designs. So many thanks for your "voice of reason" !
I'll have a closer glance to EM car escs but will not buy again something from them w/o any end-user feedback

Bye

Mr. Constructor

09-02-2004, 03:46 PM

I didn´t know that EM parts wheren´t that bad, seems to be very much **** a beginner Company, they do make the good old "banana" thing like Micro***t did several years: get the final Product made by the enduser, why waste money on tests.
This was very hepful for me as i now watch the firm from another sight, maybe i´ll let it drop, maybe i´ll let them have a chance, we´ll see !!!

racinlosi

09-02-2004, 07:55 PM

DubBL - Do you have pics from the front showing the pinions and the spur - how they line up?

What pitch pinions did you use???

Actually, that is my buggy(DualBL helped me out alot by posting it here for me. :) ), and I have this picture of it. I don't have one that is right in the front of the buggy, but while I had it going for a while(not manually), it seemed to last just fine!

The pitch pinions I used are 32P, because I cut the E-maxx spur so that it will take 32P pinions. :D

http://www.mutantrc.com/forums/album_pic.php?pic_id=133

SS Pede

09-02-2004, 10:07 PM

I just saw that video posted at the top of this page...
Holy crap! That thing HAULS!!

studysession

09-03-2004, 08:52 AM

Thanks for the link and want to say very nice buggy!

And yeah that video was nice. Some of the other links to videos do not work anymore. Can someone please repost them???

Thx

studysession

09-03-2004, 11:25 AM

Right now we have used the 15 tooth pinion with the stock Mugen 44 tooth spur gear. I have 12, 14, 15, 16 and 18 tooth pinion gears on the way. I will more than likely go with the 14 with the 7.4s and the 15 or 16 with the 11.1s when they get to me. Still waiting!!!!

It is faster off the corners than any gas buggy, I may give up a little on top end to the best modified buggy.

I am after more power in search of more effiency with less heat to lengthen runtimes. Wow!!! I can't believe I said that. Plus there is plenty of room in the buggy, so why not cram it full of battery.

Craps - are you using the stock Mugen center diff? What pitch of pinions are you using? I have some brushless motors i can use. I am thinking of machining myself a motor plate and chassis and making one of these myself from either my Hyper 7 or OFNA 9.5

studysession

09-03-2004, 11:31 AM

@ Mr. Constructor

Where do you find these new KonTroniks stuff? All I see is the 40-6-18 ESC and the 600-17 Motor? I looked on towerhobbies for the price, and that's all I see. Are those two also a great set to have?

Also, what is the UBEC? Sorry, but I just got into electric not too long ago from nitro, needed somthing that I can run without having loads of problems. ^_^

Also, I think I will be getting that setup if I can't find the one you mentioned, how good would that be with some where around 15 cells. I was thinking about the new 3600 cells, do you think that setup can handle that? Or what about 15 3300 cells? And they are all going to be conected to each other.

PS to all...if you want to see my motor mount for the BL, here is a picture of it...

racinlosi - Will you please list out what parts you used for your setup? I want to build me a double brushless 1/8 scale buggy myself now.

racinlosi

09-03-2004, 12:11 PM

Sure thing. ;)

E-Maxx stuff: Motor mount(cut to make it fit), spur gear(cut to make it fit), and pinions.

That's about it. To have the batteries stay on, sticky back velcro. Put one side on the batts, and the other on the chassis. Remember, I have the MBX-R2 which is an older car, so the spur isn't permanentally atached to the differential. I can just unscrew it and make another one if I felt like too, lol. And if you do use an E-Maxx spur, you will have to cut out some more of the chassis where the spur gear goes.

What did I use to cut the stuff? A dremel. Got to love the dremel. :D

The main thing for 1/8 convertions is just the center diff and getting the motors mounted and a pinion the corect pitch(if you have MOD 1 pitch, what Craps is using). I was going to get a MOD 1 pitch pinion, then I saw gow GraphicArtist did his buggy, and just tried to get that to work. It's actually very easy to do too. Hope this helps ya.

EDIT----Pleast note that my setup is still a brushed setup. I am using the titans right now from the E-Maxx to get all the bugs out, then I will see what I can do about going brushless. ;)

studysession

09-03-2004, 12:19 PM

Thanks - The OFNA diff is 32p on the 9.5 - I wonder if any 32p pinions will match up. I think I will go down to the model shop in Leeds and take my buggy with me to see if I can get some pinions to match up. I would like to use the same diff/spur on the buggy if possible.

I think I can either adapt or make a motor plate just like the EMaxx to fit. For the chassis I agree with DublBL - I don't like all the extra holes. I like everything looking clean.

Do any of you race with the nitro 1/8 scales? I am going to see if the track down in Wakefield will allow me to race with them. They are all nitro. That is where i used to go. I would prefer to go with a dual BL setup instead of nitro.

Anyone that has used the stock diff - I would like to see a closeup on you motor mounts. Thx

studysession

09-03-2004, 12:37 PM

studysession

09-03-2004, 12:43 PM

OK - need help

I have an OFNA 9.5 RTR with some ali hop-ups and H7 shocks. I have brushless motors and ESC. I have good batteries to use for now until I get LiPo's. I want to use stock diff which I found out is 32p.

So all I need to do is remove any of the ntiro stuff and breaks and make a motor mount and bottom chassis to mount everything on? Or am I missing something?

racinlosi

09-03-2004, 03:51 PM

You don't need another chassis. Good ol' Velcro(sticky back), Double sided tape(stuff for RC's), or zip ties will work great to mount your electronics and stuff.

You should beable to adapt it. I just drilled out some holes in the motor mount to get it to stay on the diff mount and I counter sunk the holes so the motor will sit flat on the mount. Seems to work great so far. As a matter of fact, I was REALLY lucky that where the slipper comes out for the E-Maxx through the motor mount, the center dog bone drive cup fits right in there, like it was made to or somthing!!!! :eek:

studysession

09-03-2004, 04:00 PM

I will make a new chassis, because I don't want to have all the extra holes.

Thanks for all the advice.

AlexV2024

09-04-2004, 12:42 AM

i would try to keep the breaks on it, that should reduce the amp load on the esc, and maybe improve runtime. im going to experiment with it on my emaxx....

hmm Ive considered selling my emaxx and setting up a used 1.8th with a 12cell BL setup, and making it as light as possable. is that setup possable? what about 18 cells? any one know a setup that would suit, and maybe a buggy that would also work. Id like to grab a kyosho but ill take anything that handalls great. also considering the CFR custom truggy. i think it should be about $700 or so, would an 1/8th converison be cheaper? (also i have to stick to nimh's, all i have is GP's and i dont have the cash to switch to lipos, got other racers too)

~Alex

DualBL

09-04-2004, 08:35 AM

^^^
you'r asking if it's possible to have a light weight 12 cell setup in a 1/8?
rhylsadar posted a vid to his 12 cell Plettenburg Maxximum 1/8 at the top of this page..
http://62.2.107.106/~beat/Dateien/BLMP7.5.mpg
looks like it flies.
-Nick

studysession

09-04-2004, 08:39 AM

DublBL - do you have other vids you can post. That thing is wicked fast. Very nice.

DualBL

09-04-2004, 08:47 AM

nope, I don't have anymore of his videos...
I've got ALOT of rc vids tho :)
right around 4,000 rc videos.. read: ~40GB
and 1,180 of those videos are Brushless related haha.
I've only got maybe 15 1/8 scale electric buggy videos tho, but i don't have any space on my site at the moment. I'll email em to you if you wanna see em, but it's 7:45am right now, and i havn't slept, so i'm gonna sleep now, and i'll send a message when i wake.
btw, have you talked to paul about me recently? i know you said you talked to someone else, but wasn't sure if you found out anything for me =\
later
-Nick

studysession

09-04-2004, 08:49 AM

I will email you about Paul - And yes would like you to email me some vids. Thx

AlexV2024

09-04-2004, 09:15 AM

I saw that after I posted, but read the other replies lol,I'll page through the rest of the thread.

Is that setup under $700 though? I'm DLing now, but I have the slowest WOW! cable (128kb....

~Alex

studysession

09-04-2004, 09:17 AM

If it is OK with DualBL - Some of the vid's he emails me. I will post on my website and put links here.

Popop

09-04-2004, 09:35 AM

Hi Dual

I would be happy to link what you say
But

Where's the vid material ?
Sorry but the dualbl.c mainpage is a me$$ to find anything

racinlosi

09-06-2004, 12:36 PM

The 12 cell idea should be fine. I lift my buggy up with my E-Maxx in my other hand, with motors/batts and all and it's not much heaveir than the maxx if it is at all. That is with 2 motors in the buggy also, so with 1, it's even lighter!

Mr. Constructor

09-06-2004, 04:08 PM

As for the 12 cells:
they where choosen by me as a major factor: weight to power ratio !!!
(with the use of Ni cd or nimh cells it is the best ratio available AND it is easy as it requires only 2 seriell packs !!

With lipos you have to go much higher in voltage !!(so to select a special motor ONLY for this car)

So when going on "old" technology you´ll be best and easiest and affordablest with 12 cells !!

The weight for a 12 cell 8th could be under 2,8 kg ready !!!!
(if using all methods of weight reduction AND the lightest materials (meaning titanium AND carbon))

That will really be a killer to all nitros weighting around 1 kg more !!!

AlexV2024

09-06-2004, 06:10 PM

but can i do a basic 1/8th conversion for less then $700? all i need is the chassis and bl motor and esc

~Alex

rhylsadar

09-09-2004, 05:26 AM

hi
again to the cells. what might be interesting is those new GP220 SCHR 4/5 sub c cells. they weight only 44g per cell. so 12 would be about 200g lighter than sub c. runtime would be shorter due to only 2200mAh.
or one can go with 16of those as 8 are as big as 6 sub c cells without needing more place. and 16 would be still a little lighter than 12 sub c.

rhylsadar

here a pic of the mp 7.5 with 12cells sub c. click (http://62.2.107.106/~beat/images/01-09-04/imgp0444.jpg)

Mr. Constructor

09-09-2004, 05:52 AM

Yes it it spossible to do this, it depends on the chassis costs, the esc wil be around 250 USD and the motor 200, so the rest is for the chassis, i get mine for around 180 USD (Euro: 170, as i live in germany) and it is a Kanai 2 Copy and a very excellent one !!
250+200+180+50 (receiver)+60 (servo) + 30 (small items) and you are at:

770 USD (OK little higher but is used not the cheapest parts (wich doesn´t mean that cheaper parts will burn out faster) there are almost 70 USD i think you could gain from the final amount !!

Andrewg

09-09-2004, 11:28 AM

Rhylsader

they are great cells - very high power to weight ratio - good voltage under load and more capacity than the old Nicad 2400's.

The more cells you cram in the more voltage and the lower the current - so the motor can be more efficeint, have a wider powerband especially when just tootling around.

Another benefit often overlooked is that altho the total energy of 18 cells is about the same as 13 sub-c's there is a lot more top end power when you need it. And extracting it is easier on the controller and cells

And the power to weight should be improved!

superpopop

09-09-2004, 02:53 PM

Just found this page :
http://www.strat.at/produkte/akkus.htm

Do they deliver similarly to 1250SCRL or nowadays CP1600 ??
(Those cells were just great for most ferro setups)

Nice to hear here from somebody else that limited cells count aren't the best way of performance (at last :o) ... You know Andrew, most car modelers just never tested different setups from those their shop or favorite mag suggest

studysession

09-09-2004, 02:58 PM

Nice link - thanks. That is 1st place to find any GP2200's. I use 4/5 subc cell in my Micro RS4.

Andrewg

09-09-2004, 10:23 PM

.....

Andrewg

09-09-2004, 11:01 PM

Here are some cell figures from tests by Steve Neu which demonstrate how higher cell counts can deliver higher power peaks compared to 6*3300l packs and can run comparable times at the right amperage.

GP110 (GP110AFHR) 21g very high power to weight ratios. Output based on 18*1100 which has same mass as 6*3300

amps midpoint capacity output/cell runtime watts/gm
voltage &total

10 1.15 .95 11.5/207w 5.7 minutes 0.55
20 1.08 .83 21.6/388w 2.49 minutes 1.03
30 1.02 .72 30.6/550w 1.44 minutes 1.46
40 0.90 .7 36.0/648w 1.05 minutes 1.71

GP2200 44g high power to weight ratios (better than GP3300 at 40 amps). Power figures based on 9*GP2200's, which have same mass as 6*GP3300. At 50 amps 9*2200 output is similar to 6*GP3300's at 80 amps.

amps midpoint capacity output/cell runtime watts/gm
voltage &total
20 1.15 1.900 23/207w 5.7 minutes 0.52
30 1.10 1.800 33/297w 3.6 minutes 0.75
40 1.05 1.700 42/378w 2.55 minutes 0.95
50 1.01 1.600 51/459w 1.92 minutes 1.16

Sanyo 1950 AUP
40 0.99 1.500 39.6/356w 2.25 minutes 0.9

Sanyo RC2400
40 1.01 1.850 40.4/242w 2.775 minutes 0.69

GP3300
40 1.15 3.016 46/276w 4.524 minutes 0.72

superpopop

09-10-2004, 02:04 PM

As stated here (http://rcsaga.com/power) and the news you bring, Ni-Mh now clearly overperform Ni-Cd in terms of specific power !
Once the 1100 and 2200 will be more cost effective, I'll buy only of them !!

Tx Andrew

studysession

09-10-2004, 02:18 PM

Are you saying GP1100's?

If because of size. It is not worth it. They were not designed for 540 size motors. Eventually they will just flat out die.

I have GP1100's for my micro's and as for price they can be had for very cheap. Just shop around.

starluckrc

09-10-2004, 04:46 PM

I think the point you are missing is that you have to think outside the bounds of typical 6 cell setups. Smaller cells are more efficient at power delivery. High voltage/low current systems with brushless motors makes for very efficient power systems. You are right that the typical 540 brushed can may not fair well with GP1100 cells since it's designed to make it's power on 6-7 cells.

studysession

09-10-2004, 04:49 PM

So Starluck - you are saying the GP1100's are ok with 540 size brushless?

I bought my GP1100's for real cheap. I was thinking of making a 10 cell pack for my Micro RS4 that I am putting a Lehner 5300 basic in. Figre for how cheap I paid for them, I could just buy a new set if the cell die off.

rhylsadar

09-10-2004, 04:54 PM

what i read the gp1100 are good for applications with 20A current and max 30A peak.
with the gp2200 i see no probs in bigger BL applications.
bye
rhylsadar

starluckrc

09-10-2004, 04:55 PM

That is highly dependent on wind. One of my motors is 1000kv and rated for 25 amps, so it is a good candidate for smaller capacity cells. It benefits from 25V or more though to make some power.

studysession

09-10-2004, 04:58 PM

The GP2200's - aren't they 4/5 SubC? If so, many people use 4/5 SubC cells for 540 size motors. Just anyone that I know that uses the smaller ones the cells end up dieing off.

Andrewg

09-11-2004, 02:11 AM

Studysession

try looking at it this way - cells are not designed around a motor - they are designed to deliver a certain level of amps at the highest possible voltage and lowest weight. Cells make power.

Mootrs dont make power - they convert electricity to motion. In fact electric motors reduce available power - they are always less than 100% efficient. Whats important is to find the most efficient motor, this enables it to be lighter or smaller without overheating.

The Basic 5300 has a kv of 5300rpm/v its IR is about 9mohms and the Io 3amps - its max efficeincy on 7 volts is at 50 amps - with a higher voltage the amps at max efficiency rises. That setup is perfect if you are running an average of 17-12amps - but under 20 amps efficiency is falling rapidly. But clearly the motor is too hot for 1100s

BUT on 20.7v (18*1100s at 10 amps) the motor will be trying to pull more than 100 amps at max efficiency and efficeincy where u want it at low amps will be very poor. Under those demands the cells wont die they will burn! Then there is a ? about how the motor will go at 100,000 rpm.

Ok we often dont have access to all a motors numbers. So as a rule of thumb:

* Rpm - a range of 2400-2100rpm/v will work well on 20.7 volts ie 18 *1100 @ 10amps

* Low amp draw free running. Amp draw at maximum efficiency is a function of idle amp draw and stall torque. Lower amp darw at idle is good. A 10 turn modified with a 11 amp idle current would kill the cells - one with a draw under 1 amp is unlikely to hurt the cells. At 20.7 volts 1/2-1 amp is good

* Weight - the Hacker B20-12L will make more than 200w with more than reasonable torque on 8v. If a lighter motor can do the job use it -the power to weight will be better and handling better and the runtime will be a bit longer.

Going back to 36mm motors which will work - A Basic 2100 will work with 1100's if geared properly. With max efficiency at 31 amps it performs well at 11-7.5 amps or 231w in -> 205w out. Rpm is good. But this motor can still rip big amps if it is stalled.

Also with brushless motor I prefer to heavier cells with better power output and a smaller motor - this is because the cells make the power, the motor merely converts between 50-96% to rotational speed and torque.

With less weight acceleration and handling improve. The Hacker B20 series doesnt have the rpm and efficeincy combination needed.

Mega 16/15/4 runs the right rpms the right power handling from a 2.7oz motor.

Hacker B40-S18 will also do the job very nicely with a 4.1oz motor. Both are putting out the same power as the 2100. And an improved power to weight ratio.

studysession

09-11-2004, 03:54 AM

I understand that the motors don't make power - I was saying that the 540 size motors draw to much power from the smaller batteries and eventually they will die.

And this math and "theory" is great that everyone keeps posting. Until you hook up an AMP meter whyle you are hammering the thing to death. You truely have no clue how many AMps you are drawing. Until then it is just theory.

That is why I picked up the Super Watt Meter from Model Eledctonics. When I am setting up my and getting ready for the speed runs I will install it during practice runs and know exactly how many AMPs I am drawing from the batteries.

Here is a link to the Super Watt Meter:
http://www.modelelectronicscorp.com/products/accessories/super-whatt-meter.html

They use it on electric planes to make sure they are not drawing to much from the batteries so they do not blow their ESC.

Andrewg

09-11-2004, 05:13 AM

And that is what I am saying

The characteristics of your motor wind will kill cells like 1100's - but other 36mm motors wont, even 900's wont.

I hope you can report the findings you make. The eagle trees tylemetry system is the otpimum for data presentation.

studysession

09-11-2004, 05:27 AM

Yeah - the eagle tree is nice, but you need a PC to get the data from it. The Watt meter has an LCD and I know imediately how many AMPs I am drawing. That is why I asked Model Electronics to send me one. They are also who I get my matched/zapped GP3300's from.

Before I can report any data - I need to first figure out the programming on my ESC. The guy who helps me comes back from holiday this week. I hope he has time. I have one of their beta ESC's for the Genesis project which is their car ESC. I am having trouble programming the startup routine. Once I get that done, I will be doing speed runs again.

Right now I am using a 50amp ESC, next month MTroniks will be giving me a 100amp ESC for my speed runs and will be going up in amps from their.

starluckrc

09-11-2004, 09:50 AM

The watt meter is worthless for car applications. I contacted Astroflight about a peak hold feature, but they weren't interested. No load data will have no practical use vs what is really going on when running the car under load.

studysession

09-11-2004, 11:05 AM

I will test it out and let everyone know. It was sent to me to test and check out. I am hoping it helps me figure out what I want.

Signats

09-11-2004, 11:11 AM

SS,

Some of the resourceful RC airplane guys use a small onboard video system pointed directly at a watt meter as an in-flight data recorder.

If you can squeeze everything under the body shell, then the whatt meter may be a very good source for the data you seek....Good luck with that speed control.

superpopop

09-11-2004, 01:54 PM

Hi studysession and others
Sorry for the misunderstanding my reply may have caused among you.
For my numerous 1:10-1:8 projects, I obviously will use the 2200mAh version in place of my typical 1250SCRL and derivated CP1600 (40A practical) ...
In a similar way, the 1100GP will take place in my 500-800g airplanes (Zoupix, etc.) in place of the 500AR (20A practical)
(Studysession, plz have a glance to my last link)

Concerning the measurement, eagletree systems are pretty useful (when used the right way), and as I predicted some years ago the BL rush into the car segment, I can tell you future ESCs will include datalogging and future ground-RC systems downlinks for speed, watt, etc.
Once the commutation went to the ESC, this one became the best place for all measurements (rpm as well as watt and others) ... See Simprop ESC for example

Studysession, let us tuned about the Mtroniks ESCs !
Bye

studysession

09-11-2004, 04:38 PM

Well the future is now. If you see some of the latest RC mags - some of the items you mentioned are already being done, just not main stream yet.

studysession

09-12-2004, 05:49 PM

Other things like the telemetry being transmitted to your radio - take a looke at www.eagletreesystems.com they already have it.

I want to ask a question about gearing - why does everyone say you need a Mod1 pitched gear to use the stock diff's on these 1/8 scale buggies when all the documentation says the gears are 32p on the stock diff's? I also emailed OFNA asking and they claim that it is 32p as well.

So everyone saying it is Mod1 confuses me. Please shed some light on this subject.

Thanks

starluckrc

09-13-2004, 11:41 AM

Sadly, pr people for manufacturers usually don't even know there own products. Every 1/8 buggy I have encountered uses mod 1 gearing.

studysession

09-15-2004, 02:59 PM

OK -

I am converting my Hyper 7 to electric. Right now I can not use any of the brushless ESC's that I have for this project. I need to purchase one.

I might try one of these Warrior ESC's. I would like to here which one people recommend for use on a 1/8 scale using 12 cells. The motor I will use is totally undecided yet. I would most likely try many different ones just to compare. I have access to a few already and do not need to purchase one for this. Just need to get an ESC.

Thanks!

Also if you can provide links to which ESC that you recommend would be helpful.

Popop

09-15-2004, 03:31 PM

As you know, Ofna actually distributes Hobao and hong nor products (enemy brothers companies!) in the same line ... And for Ofna, hobao or hong nor products bills of material are on the poor side

Once said, I only can tell you that the primary gearing is 1mm on 1:8 cars ... But not the diff inside ...

Popop

09-15-2004, 03:35 PM

Cool !!

studysession

09-15-2004, 03:37 PM

Nice! :)

NIC

09-16-2004, 08:57 AM

studysession, I use the 18.149F from Schulze in a Kanai 2 and couldn`t be happier. It´s prob. the best one for the job. I use 15 cells on it now, 12 earlier. Really great performance from that car. A nitro doesn´t stand a chance against it.

NIC

NIC

09-16-2004, 09:00 AM

A link and impressions about this set-up at the bottom of page 8 in this thread.

NIC

studysession

09-16-2004, 11:47 AM

Thanks for the info -

I am really leaning towards something other than Schulze though. It will be a few weeks before I can purchase it, so I will be doing some comparing.

I ordered an EMaxx motor plate off EBay. Look forward to it showing up later next week. I will eventually make my own custom motor plate just because. But for now will use the one off the EMaxx. I will be milling out a new chassis because I want to save all the original chassis and other parts incase I decide to go back to nitro for some reason.

Figure most of the time I will just use 12 cells. With some of the power that most motors I am using deliver, I think 12 cells will be enough. I am thinking that I need an ESC that can handle minimum of 100amps or more because of weight and startup power needed. That is just a rough guesstimate though. I would like to get an ESC that can handle more to allow me to go up in cells later if I want to.

Mr. Constructor

09-25-2004, 06:06 AM

As for the esc, DO NOT use a warrior !!
the reating is OK, i used it in my 8th cars too, but if you have NOT planned your motor (maybe it will be another thing than a 2 pole) you will not be glad with the warrior, as the timing cannot be adjusted, same with frequency.

IF you really wanna have everything programmable, even the amp settings then wait for the new soon to be released Jeti/Hacker esc, the Prototype really holds everything !!
(the final product might be much smaller too, so room isn´t an issue)

if you plan on using a 2 pole the warrior 7018 is a thing to buy, it is cheap, powerful and with up to 12 cells the bec is OK (under 8 cells it should be replaced by a battery pack) above 12 cells you always will have to use a switched BEC (the one from HB is going up to 30 cells !!!!)

If you really wanna have a good esc NOW then as nic said use the 18.129 (or the 12.xxx version if you use up to 12 cells) from Schulze, it is one of the best one out there, but does not have the programation features like the U Force or the new Hacker (from 5-8 cells and soon then up to 12 or even 16 cells (my proto was up to 16 cells but without bec, so a aftermarket bec might be useful.

One last word to the warrior, this esc really is best suited in a 8th 12 cell application, it really provides an excellent drivesmoothness here and the cogging is reduced to almost nothing (OK Schulze and Hacker are better here but they do cost much more) any other (bigger, Higher) cell count leads to schulze now !!

I will speak to Mr. Hacker himself on Monday to figuer out what happend to the new esc, if there is anything in the near future (as i do need another 12 cell esc for my Kanai 2)
The Proto was used in my Mad Force 4wd Truck so i do need a new one too.

as for the 18.129 it really is one of the most powerful esc´s out there and it really is OK (it will be used in my 18 cell 5th car soon) but the missing switched BEC really is an issue for itself, i would like schulze to incorporate it in their esc´s if anybody doesn´t wanna use it he could disable it, but now i do have to get a switched bec (wich isn´t that cheap if you really wanna have something reliable !!

Andrewg

09-27-2004, 10:13 AM

ANother thing I have noticed is a few guys with setups which sound fast saying the controller runs warm.

I wa talking to a motor tester late last week aout this.

He suggested that as cars seem to use a lower wind motor than planes or boats (the common origin of the brushless controllers) and as a result motor inductance is low - controllers - particularly at partial throttle work better with high frequencies.

So fixed frequency controllers may be somewhat limtied in applications where some low wind low inductance motors are used.

The Kontronik Samba need a 32mhz setting because they have very low inductance. The car wont go faster its the electronics ability to run cool (and therefore component life) that benefits from this.

Mr. Constructor

09-27-2004, 03:02 PM

The frequency clearly HAS a thing to do with that, but not that huge, most people really forget that a acclerating car really pumps some amp, much more than a plane or a boat might do if they´re the same weight.

The Frequency leads to better efficency, but only up to 8-12 Khz, above that the motor feels if it is steered at a long wide rope not directly anymore, the power from the bottom is also less.
the 32khz mode is ONLY for the Tango Motors, as there spaecial magnetic re-use system nees those freuqencys to be controlled.
The 19 khz Mode in some esc´s is way too much, the best setup is found between 4 and 12 khz, the cars weight AND its bigger tires or worst pinion selection makes the difference.

A 10th need a 60 A esc a 8th a 70-100 and 5th /6th either a 100 but with more cells, in general !!

The drivetrain isn´t freely enough on many cars too, that greatly pushes Amps high, but in boats or planes the drivetrain runs free MOSTLY.

all small things have come together to get the esc warm alot, the missing cooling air in most cars is another thing.

Craps

09-27-2004, 03:20 PM

Has anybody raced an Electric 1/8th scale against gas ones lately?

I have been very busy with other business lately and I hope to race mine again this weekend. TP sent me some new batteries to try and I have got the gear problem fixed, so I am ready to go kick some gas buggy buttt with my pro driver!

I going to come up with a battery quick change system for the buggy so it can run longer races.

Let's go race!

Mr. Constructor

09-28-2004, 04:06 AM

wouldn´t it be better to say : " let´s go for hunting . . .. " ;-)

as those crappy nitros wouldn´t even have a chance against the buggy !!!

Good Luck on the hunt, show the trophies ;-)

(the BL Buggys really ARE way better than an Nitro, only runtime has to go higher with more mAh in the lipos)

DaFF

09-28-2004, 02:32 PM

I going to come up with a battery quick change system for the buggy so it can run longer races.

Craps,

Just wanted to show you my version of the "quick change system"

It's easy to do, simple, yet effective and light - less than 20 grams on my precision scale with bolts -

It takes me less than 30 sec to swap batts.

It also allow for extra protection on my batt since it kind of hang outside of the chassis but the tray is taking care of that.

The position of the safety straps are along the widht of the batt. I learned the hard way that my previous straps along the lenght killed my one batt because of the pressure on the cells tabs (hence broken tap)... Bad !

Last but not least, I like the fact it look good on my CF chassis !

Notes:

- Tray is made off 1.5 mm CF - the 2 Bolts are M3
- Batt has double side tape on bottom and 2 safety high strenght tape strap
- Washer are splitted so that I only have to unscrew the bolts for half a turn to swap batt
- The holes on the tray are bigger than the od of the nuts ( for the quick tray change system ) but it also helps me to fine tune the position of the batt on the chassis. It is critical for me to find the right left / side balance.

At first I was a bit afraid of the CF to CF contact that may lead to interference and bad receiver glitch, but I think the safety batt straps act as a spacer because I did not have any radio interference.

Good luck !

DFF

DaFF

09-28-2004, 02:34 PM

Second pic

DaFF

09-28-2004, 02:35 PM

Last pic

Reinhard

09-30-2004, 02:27 PM

fo the GP2200-cells...

hmm..
6 Euro each cell..

so: for a 1:8 buggy
a 16cell-pack would cost
around 100 euro
and weight 710g
2200mah of capacity
(so: 38,7Wh ---- 0.38Wh for each euro)

a pack of 5s3p konions
would have about same voltage
would cost 140 Euro
weights only 620g
chargeable with 6A
and offers 3300mAh of capacity
(so: 55Wh ---- 0,39Wh for each euro)

resüme: same price for same capacity..

just to compare:
16 3300GP
4 Euro each cell
so: 64 Euro
1000g weight :(
offers 3300mAh
(so: 55Wh ---- 0,85Wh for each euro)

the cheapest, but also heavierst solution

DualBL

09-30-2004, 03:23 PM

Hey Reinhard, I didn't know you were registered on this board.
we're all wondering about information about the "bigger" Plettenberg motor that you posted on maxxtraxx. we were talking about it in the 1/5 electric thread in the brushless forum... http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1566489#post1566489
-Nick

Mr. Constructor

10-01-2004, 03:34 AM

I can say that in some way reinhard´s calculation is true, but normally the lipo Wh/Euro figures are way more down, the Wh output is great but on high Amps these cells are really not that big advantage (without getting the voltage higher!!) so the GP 3300´s are way the good solution, but lipo is on it´s way, kokam showed the first car related lipo pack with their new 3200´s so it will take only a short time prices will fall and capacity will rise.

for people who tend to buy several packs in the next few months (maybe till x mas) they could easily go with GP 3300´s as they´re the cheaper and more useful (meaning easier to use at lower costs) solution.

In a Small car (18th and under it) or in bigscale (6th and above) the use of Lipo or Liion cells is greatly possible but in the middle (10th, 8th) the power needed cannot be transferred from lipos of the same voltage than NiMH so this will take a time.

As Dual BL said:

Any infos on the Motor, as i am GREATLY interested for my new 5th project a 1 hour 5th race car (based on lipo or liion cells) and this Motor will be a better choice for me than a LMT 2240 series.

Greetings from Hamburg via America to Austria !!
(little bit longer greeting !! ;-) )

;-))

rhylsadar

10-01-2004, 03:55 AM

hope you have seen that picture too...
pletti comparison (http://hometown.aol.de/M0Wurst/IMG_1713.JPG) the left one is the big maxximum.
a 10poler! :D around 820 1/min /V is what i read.
bye
rhylsadar

DualBL

10-01-2004, 04:11 AM

lol rhylsadar, that's the one Mr. Constructor was talking about.. I posted the pic in the 1/5 thread.
where'd you get that info on it.. the 10 pole, and 820kv?
-Nick

Chase023

10-01-2004, 05:04 AM

Well I know that it is a prototype motor for big Helis and Cars 1:5 with 24-30 cells. D Plettenberg told me to have some patience for some info on it.
Ah well gotta just wait and see.

Craps

10-01-2004, 05:41 AM

Testing yesterday showed the new pinion gears are unflawed for 30 minute plus run, but I did tear up the center diff after the center screws backed out and ran dry. Had a brainstorm and filled it with epoxy. Bad idea! That was one ugly driving RC with the center diff locked up and would not suggest this to anybody.

I did make a battery box out of accoustical ceiling grid wall track I bought at Lowe's building supply that is made out of plastic and wrapped with duct tape. The batteries are protected with something rigid and are held down with the velcro system that worked very good.

Now I need to replace that epoxy filled center diff.

Also the latest pair Thunder Power TP8000-3S4P SHD Gen 2 batteries were tested with great results too. They just came out with these and are supposed to have a 15C burst discharge rate with 10C continious that works fine in the buggy.

The pinion gear problem is solved along with a battery protection and hold down system. The pinion gears are bulletproof.

Reinhard

10-01-2004, 07:30 AM

hey..
just posted the Video of NICs 1:8 conversion in another forum..

well..
the people are impressed of acceleration but:

"too heavy"
"bad balance"
...
not competitive at a racetrack against nitros...

so: for going up and down a straight line faster than nitro, but on a racetrack due bad handling not competitive..

so: if you mean (Craps, Nic, mrconstructor, myself ;) )
that your (our) 1:8-buggies are competitive also on a racetrack,
we NEED A VIDEO !!!!!!

i can´t do that with my 500Watt sports420/5 powered 10year old Crono-Chassis and my bad driving-skills..
so: one of you have to make a vid where we can see a electric 1:8 race against nitros..
not going up and down a straight street, thats worthless, meaning nothing..

;)

Reinhard

10-01-2004, 07:44 AM

Mr. Constructor:

In a Small car (18th and under it) or in bigscale (6th and above) the use of Lipo or Liion cells is greatly possible but in the middle (10th, 8th) the power needed cannot be transferred from lipos of the same voltage than NiMH so this will take a time.

?????

what do you mean by that ??

just for comparing:
my Losi XXX-4 (1:10, 4WD, Buggy)

http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/Thunderpower%20Lipo/7Zellen_Akku_im_XXX4_P9280173.jpeg
7 3300GP (8,4Volt)
454g schwer
max. Dauerpower (gehen wir von 40A und dann 1,1Volt/Zelle aus): 310Watt
Peakpower (sagen wir 80A und dann 0,9Volt/Zelle): 500Watt

zum Vergleich:
http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/Thunderpower%20Lipo/Thunderpower_im_Losi_XXX4_P9280172.jpeg
288g leicht
3s2p 4200mah
Spannung: 11,1Volt
max. continouse Power (gehen wir von 40A und dann 3,4Volt/Zelle aus): 410Watt
Peakpower (65A, 3,1Volt pro Zelle): 610Watt

so: also the Lipo is MUCH lighter, it has more power than the NiMh-cell-pack..

for energie:
Nimh: 7*1,2V*3,3Ah = 27,7Wh bei 454g Gewicht
Lipo: 3*3,7V*4,2Ah = 46,6Wh bei nur 288g Gewicht

ad current:
if you are not completley mad and can live with "drivable" speed the current-demand of a 1:10 is no that hight !

my Losi XXX-4 has a very raceable speed (i estimate it runs about 50km/h) with my hacker C40-10L (3000U/min/Volt)
i use in the moment a old 3SL40-6-12 (yes, a 40A controller) and it does not get hot at all (7 cells)...

well:
with a 2s3p-Setup 60A contious and peaks up to 100A are possible..
FAR enough for any 1:10-car...

so: i see no reason why not use Lipo in 1:10...
(except of price)

oh:
http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/Thunderpower%20Lipo/Gewichtsvergleich.jpeg
6cell versus 3s2p in weight...

6cells: 349g
2s4p 8000mAh Lipo: 313g (80A continously, 120A bursts, 150A peaks)

Reinhard

10-01-2004, 07:58 AM

here 2 vids what i mean with "drivable power":

http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e9625624/Videos/LosiXXX4_Hofer_Parkplatz_mittel.wmv

http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e9625624/Videos/Losi_xxx4_first_vid_musik_kleiner.avi

nothing "mindblowing", so for "i want break the speed-world-record"-people not suitable..
but on the racetrack its a cool setup (small 1:8-nitro-buggy-track, buggies use 13-teeth-clutch)
not too powerful and extra long runtime..
have not measured yet, but iam sure i get over 15min with 7 3300GP...

Craps

10-01-2004, 08:44 AM

Sorry I am not the movie maker, but I quess you will have to board a plane and come to NC, USA with your camera and make a movie of my buggy racing!

Not much to ask for! :D

Come on down! The BBQ is great here!

Reinhard

10-01-2004, 08:53 AM

*lol*

well, i have no movie-camera, only my 24seconds-movie-taking olympus E-100RS digicam

my travel-budget is very empty in the moment..
(next stops are: Budapest, Prag, Athen.. so no money left..)
;)

but a race-video is realy needed..
there are 10-15 1:8-electric-buggie-vids of buggies driving up and down up and down up and down..

but no vid of a buggy driving circle-circle-circle ;)

even if a buggy goes 140km/h you will not impress a nitro-buggy-pro-driver with that at all....
track-performance !

have you meanwhile already raced your buggy ?
how has it performed compared to the others ?

have seen pics of your buggy:
BIG controller... very high (high cg ?)
the lipos wide outside the car...

whats about handling with that ?
that are points that do not sound that good (handling-wise)

from design i like mr.constructors LRK-buggy best...
batts very close to the centerline of the buggy..
motor in the middle..
the car seems to be perfect balanced...

Reinhard

10-01-2004, 08:58 AM

http://www.coldfusionracing.com/8ths/files/images/constructorproject1.jpg
mr. constructors design:
with other batt-holders the batts can go nearly in the center of the car..
only 1cm space for the shaft needed..

Craps

10-01-2004, 09:39 AM

The problem is I can't drive the thing due to huge amount of power it has, but I do have a driver that is very talented and has lead some races with it before a gear failure or battery failure plaqued it several months ago. He was ahead by 2 laps when the battery failed at 19 minutes of 20 minute race using 2 TP8000-2S4Ps and lost a battery due to mismatching on my part in a big money race at 11 minutes in with a 1 lap lead on the field using the the older gen1 TP8000-2S4Ps. Now I have a pair of the latest Gen2 TP8000-3S4P SHD that has a total of 22.2 volts versus the 14.8 volts of the pair of TP8000-2S4Ps.

The gear problem was a real tough one, but I have the highest strength metal ones you can have made. Expensive but they cured the problem.

It has not been raced much due to my business the last 3 months and I wanted to take time and have those pinion gears made right. Now I am ready to get in the grove again with some race testing.

The weight difference in gas buggy and my Li-Po/BL buggy is about pound, but the weight helps when you need to dig in with large difference in torque output by the electric. Besides the extra weight of the batteries is down low keeping a low CG.

Stay tuned!

Reinhard

10-01-2004, 02:14 PM

with the 14,4Volt-setup your friend managed to lead 2times a race until breaking parts ??

which motor, which gearing ?

now you use 22,2Volt.. same motor ? which gearing ?
so even more power than before (which already was enough to lead ?)
do i get it right way ?

well..
all that reading and writing.. my fingers get nervouse..
i have to shimm the diffs of my 1:8 CRONO elektro right now
(video of it: )
of course: comparable to your baby i have only around 500Watt Power max..
batts empty after 9min
(i guess you reach 1800Watt max... and go 20min WOWA
:eek: )
i need a gold-donkey

Xman78201

10-01-2004, 02:17 PM

Hello everyone, I am looking at building a 1/8 scale buggy. I already have numerous brushless systems... Is the ofna ultra mbx r2 buggy from tower hobbies a bad choice.... What else will i need to do to get this beast running?????

Mr. Constructor

10-01-2004, 05:06 PM

Hello Reinhard, welcome here, good to hear ya back, we hadn´t heard that much from you on da german board !!

Hmm, in general your thoughts about the Lipo in da 10th is OK, but under hrsher conditions (like big 10th Trucks) the batterys are way too expencieve for this little better runtime

to say: AT THE MOMENT NiMH is cheaper and allows us to archieve great results with less money (a 6 cell GP 3300´S is around 33 Euro in Germany, the good matched quality)

So taking a 5th is even easier as those bigger cells allow a current of up to 400 A peak for 10 sec. and around 150 A continously at a capacity of up to 31 Ah !!!

but OK; Kokam has made their way to the first Sub c 6 cell replacement that we all want to have as a "cheap" (no special soldered packs) and better alternative for those built packs like the TP ones, there are too many cells to hassle with, the fault of one or two might cause in a loss of a very expencive pack !!

The Lsoi Vid really is OK; the speed is well for the C 40 10S, very good setup, but at the beginning the motor was cogging very little, what esc parameters are you using (or is it NOT adjustable, i dunno 100% at the moment) ???

I have to thank you for your comments on my cra design for the kanai 2 conversion, the new kanai conversion is under the thinking, but now with best parts of all my 8th conversions, several where done to test out a few things (like the mid-motor concept, wich is very good, but is limited in other areas that way it might not be used in other cars.

So the next one has to benefit from all these things (hopefully... ;-) )

The Car was bought today, so there isn´t any part even designed, but the very close battery design is a must have the mostly centered motor also, but a need for a slipper comes in demand and a lighter stiffer chassis too a fast battery change too.
The car will be same well balanced overall as my kanai LRK but with more options (like changeable gearing, slipper, constant drive or even a 2 speed tranny or a sealed diff comes close)

OK, damn i missed the theme a little . . . . . ;-)

Back to the roots:
to Xman78201:

If you wanna use it you could but the chassis design isn´t that new, so you might have a old car even after putting the latest technology inside it.

Maybe these ones will fit better to the resulting speed and power:(and they do offer great parts selection on various tuning parts)

Xray M 8, Kanai 3, MP 777, King of Dirt (cheap Kanai copy, but good quality, great basement, mostly known in Europe), Mugen MBX 5, Hobao/Ofna/Graupner/T2M Hyper 7.

These cars are better than this chassis you prefer.

By the way in wich projects did you use your BL sytems ??
(just for my own interest as all projects fascinate me)

The MBX r2 could be converted too, it depends greatly on your money, skills and your goals off course.
If you could live with a alu chassis then even the stock one will do the job, a.s.o. the list is really an endless one!!
You must give us a few more ideas to tell you a specific thing.

see ya

studysession

10-01-2004, 05:23 PM

Hey -

I am looking at getting this controller for my Hyper 7 brushless conversion -
http://www.bk-electronics.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_56&products_id=333

Do you think it can handle it? I plan on running no more than 12 cells or no more than 4 LiPo's. Using 1 brushless motor on the buggy.

Mr. Constructor

10-01-2004, 05:34 PM

Yes this esc could be used, but the cogging might be an issue as the software isn´t that great, but normally it worked very fine on 12 cells in my several 8ths (even in a special 10th it is OK, but this is only due to a special Motor)

So if your budget allows this one and nothing else go for it, it will be OK for ANY 2 POLE !!! Motor (NOT for any other design !!)

The other esc´s are:

Schulze 12.97
Schulze U Force 75
new soon to be released Hacker 12 cell esc
maybe the soon to be released Mtroniks (as the proto was for 12 cells but "only" 50 Amps

so the choice isn´t that big, as ALL others are way more money, so take it, OR leave it and make other things on that car, the esc could be bought even at the end of the construction !!

Reinhard

10-01-2004, 05:59 PM

@Mr. constructor:
the cogging is right..
onroad and on a dirt-racetrack its not a problem at all...

on grass (if it is not golfplatz-stylisch short) it can happen that the motor even don´t wana start at all !

controller: 3SL40-6-12 (not programmable, or: i don´t have the CPS from Kontronik to programm it)
the controller is now nearly 8-10 years old i think, so: wondering that it works at all *lol*

the motor is nOT a C40-10S but a C40-10L (longer can, slower turning, more torque)... bought it for my emaxx, but it works good in the XXX-4 for me too..

meanwhile i use a BEAT80-6-18 in the Losi...
no cogging...

Mr. Constructor

10-02-2004, 04:00 AM

@ Reinhard:

hmm, the 80-6-18 ISrunning in Car ??
(i bought it several months ago as a esc for my twist 55 powered dyna storm, the esc was really bad, cogging was there at any time, the worst esc i´ve ever had !!
so i´m little wondering wich setup you used to get it run, or did i had a older software ??

THIS 3sl is really an old one, i do have 2 off them moving at all too, they where great for their time !!

;-) good old rc stuff ;-)

what are your next projects, are you building on a new 8th or something else ??

see ya

studysession

10-02-2004, 04:07 AM

I have been running the MTroniks for a few months. Will be getting a new one soon from them. They are one of my sponsors. I have been testing all their brushless products.

I really like the brushless MTroniks ESC's myself. I have had a Schulze before and it thermaled on me regularly. Eventually blew it. It went to easily.

Just right now I am looking for something different.

mrkinigit

10-02-2004, 08:15 AM

when will the Mtroniks be availible to people in the US?

studysession

10-02-2004, 10:31 AM

It is not available at all right now. The MTroniks one has not been released. I am a beta tester for their brushless products.

I have used it on 2 pole and 6 pole motors and it is fine - If you get one that handles more amps it will even handle a 2hp brushless motor. The thing rocks. I will be getting a bigger one in next couple of weeks.

Also the MTroniks one is completely water proof.

in the US it will be available through:
http://www.hobbypeople.net/

They are the US importer for all MTroniks products.

Reinhard

10-02-2004, 11:00 AM

@Mr. Constructor (Robert ?):

yes, the BEAT80-6-18 was at first also my WORST controller ever..
even in airplane-use it was useless..
costed me a plane:
it refused to start the prop...
when it was running it worked, when i once was low and a interference shut down the motor for half of a second i couldn´t restart it, and the plane was too low, and was "killed" by an "Ackerfurche" also i set it in the field very smooth (the weight of the 12cells did all the damage)

i have made a video of the strange behavior (it was not realy cogging.. it was something else: mike from kontronik told me he had never seen that before):

http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e9625624/Videos/Kontronik_BEAT_file_damaged.wmv

well.. in RC-car it behaved the way, that it was only possible to start the car when you "push" it by hand..

after the softwareupdate:
the controller did also not start the car, but now it was even not possible to accelerate it by hand because when you tried that, the controller blocked the wheels...

a second software-update made all the difference !
its now - i would say - comparable to my bk-electronics 1895 mikro..
maybe there are softer-starting controllers (Schulze u-force)
but unimportant too me..
the startup like it is now is soft-enough for me..

a schulze-uforce would be limited to rc-cars..
the BEAT80 i can use in planes AND - very important - it has maybe one of the best heli-modes (softer than Schulze) on the market !

Reinhard

10-02-2004, 11:06 AM

here found a video where you can see the BEAT80-6-18 problem in action:

http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e9625624/Videos/Hotliner_Diamond_med.wmv

(its a plane,sorry for that *gg*)
you have to make the sound loud to here the commentary of good friend from the off *lol*
"reini, why don´t you...
..reini, make this...
.. reini, can you..
.. reini, why not..." ;)

and a "nearly" crash at the end...
(it was after 2 years the first flight with that model, to far back CG and too much evelon... so for that it looks a little unprofessional (the flying-style))

(sorry for that all off-topic)

at the end: the controller works now with new software fine, also it is not a special car-controller !

Andrewg

10-02-2004, 11:12 AM

""The frequency clearly HAS a thing to do with that, but not that huge""

The lower the inductance the more the frequency has to do with how the controller performs at part throttle. A syou owuld know brushless controllers generally perform very poorly at part throttle. Cars use smaller lower wind lower impedance motors than even boats.

Acclerating a car may pump amps but not more than my baots which ull a continuous 60-80 amps, and remember F5b's put 140 amps

The 32khz mode is use dont the Tango Motors because of the re very low inductance. The frequency relates to inductance lower amp loads simply make a mismnatch less noticeable

Reinhard

10-02-2004, 11:19 AM

F5Bs are already in the 180-200A region !!! :eek:
and that are not peaks of under 1 second but for 3-4 seconds !!! (after 4 seconds the plane is over 200m high *gg*)

(just for compare: the first electro-plane from Graupner needed 6min to reach a hight of 150m !)

speleopower

10-02-2004, 11:38 PM

I'm wanting to get into 1/8 scale cars. Right now I won't buy one as I can not stand using nitro fuel. I fly electric airplanes and I have a 1/10scale electric truck. Most of my airplanes are brushless and I have a pile of large lithium batteries and a few high powered brushless ESC's laying around.
Does anyone have a solid 1/8 scale electric conversion kit for sale yet?
Thanks-Scott

Mr. Constructor

10-04-2004, 03:12 PM

Not yet, as none of the people came out with a useful complete set, there are 2 ways:
wait for a set (there is one in the development . . . . i cannot say more!)
or getting parts and make your own one, as those parts are beeing not that hard to get than in several years ago it will go OK, but it might be alot of work to do !!
(but you can totally choose your own setup, this could become either a problem or it will be the best thing what could happen it depends on your skills, machinability (can you get access to machining tools, or have you got your own . . . a.s.o.) in general it isn´t that huge thing if you use the existing materials if you do built everything new it will cost a lot !!

(the "normal" conversion is made out of "lying around parts" and mostly the original nitro chassis parts, so there aren´t that mayn parts to built at all.

good luck !!

studysession

10-13-2004, 03:24 PM

OK - I need some help on deciding

I have the motor mount installed on my Hyper 7 PBS. Hoping after work before class tomorrow i will get the steering servo mount installed.

I now need to decide which controller and which motor to get. Everything is so expensive. I want to run with 12 cells on the buggy. Would like to reach speeds around 45MPh.

Thanks!

Mr. Constructor

10-14-2004, 05:55 AM

There might be 3 versions:

1. for smaller budget:
1x LMT warrior 9918 BEC and a Feigao or similar 540er sized motor with a 5mm shaft !!! (the power is too great to go safe with a 1/8" or 3.17mm shaft)
around 300 USD i think

2. Use a Warrior but amore powerful Hacker B 50 Series (maybe the L version IF it could be fitted in the car, mostly the space isn´t really there) this one will be around 300-400 USD i think.

3. version, absolute power on all conditions:
1x Schulze 12.97 (or the soon to be released new hacker 12 cell esc) and Hacker B 50 L shouldbe over 400 USD.

When it comes to torque the hackers are way better than the LMT one.

There might be better combos but these ones are proven to be the best for the money !!

Sorry but under 300 for a 1KW peak system with a 12 cell esc and bec and mostly small parts (the space in that car isn´t really big as it isn´t really big in all 8th conversions) cannot be cheaper.

(maybe you could get the motor much cheaper, but the esc solutions are limited as the new hacker and the mtroniks proto esc´s aren´t out yet !!)

IF you wanna use the servo for braking the esc might be cheaper as you could use a flying only esc the weight will go up and you´ll have mechanical brakes (wich shouldn´t be a bad point, as my mad force brakes extremely well with this solution)

studysession

10-16-2004, 12:40 PM

Thanks for the info Mr. C.

OK - For now I used a stock EMaxx motor plate on my Hyper 7. Had to modify it a bit. Will post a step by step later not right now.

I need the most simplest solution for getting the blue anodizing off. I do not want it to be a big ordeal and hopefully di it easily and keep a nice polish when I am finished.

Any advise here?

studysession

10-16-2004, 04:59 PM

Here is what my Hyper 7 conversion is looking like. I now want to remove the blue off any of the ali parts. It does not match my black and purple. I will now be remaking the motor plate for the buggy from scratch. I picked up a brushless motor and I need to figure out what gearing to use now. I am thinking of taking out the center diff and do something COMPLETELY different. We will see.

Stock EMaxx Motor Plate
http://studysession.com/h7/StockEmaxxMotorPlate.JPG

Cutting the plate
http://studysession.com/h7/modified-motorplate.JPG

What the Hyper 7 looked like before the plate was mounted
http://studysession.com/h7/was.JPG

What it looks like now
http://studysession.com/h7/now1.JPG
http://studysession.com/h7/now2.JPG

My milling machine
http://studysession.com/h7/WorkBench.JPG

I am doing all my milling by hand at the moment. Still need to learn the CNC part. I am new to using a mill or lathe. Tell me what you think.

Kenny T

10-16-2004, 11:57 PM

An easy way to remove anodising is to spray the parts with Ezy off Oven cleaner. After half an hour, most of it should have come off so give it a wash and scrub. Make sure you do it in a well ventilated area though as the fumes are poisonous.

Looks good studysession.

studysession

10-17-2004, 03:32 AM

Thanks! Today I am going to start making a motor plate from scratch instead of using the EMaxx plate. I want something that is completely my own for the magazine article I am doing. ;) I just wanted to see how the EMaxx plate was modified since that is what most poeple seem to use.

Kenny T

10-17-2004, 08:12 AM

I wish I had something to cut the aluminium. For my NMT to brushless conversion, all I had was a portable drill and my friend's rotary tool.

studysession

10-17-2004, 08:21 AM

To bad you do not live close to me. I would do the conersion for you for free just so I could have all the measurements to do them again later. Once I am done with the machining class - I will be getting into using the CNC'ing part. Right now we are doing everything manually so we understand how everything works.

When my H7 is finished I am going to post my step-by-step up on my website. MaxBashing magazine will feature my complete write up in their magazine which is very cool. They are also going to feature my 540 conversion for my MiniT. :) I now just need a good ESC for my buggy. I still am undecided on this. I do not care for Schulze because of a bad experience I had with one in the past. And might use a motor that has more than 2 poles and everyone says Warriors are not good for more than 2 poles. Se we will see what happens and what I get for it.

I would like to have a couple of people mail me different buggies and trucks they have so I could convert them to be honest. Eventually I would like to reproduce conversion kits easily for different models. The catch is, I would not want anyone to mail me an RC that I already have done a conversion for.

I just got finished modifying that steering servo plate. Figure I do not need the disk brakes right now - so I made it where the steering servo is only servo mounted.

I am moving onto my MiniT 540 conversion next. Will be making a motor plate for my MiniT to allow a 540 size motor to be mounted. :)

Kenny T

10-17-2004, 09:08 AM

I'm doing a step by step guide of how I did my conversion so if you want it, I'll give you the link when I'm done.

A few others have done the conversion but I think I'm the only one who's done a 12 cell set up. The others are using 3S lipo or 6/7 cells.

studysession

10-17-2004, 09:12 AM

The biggest thing is measurements - So I can replicate the parts that are needed and it makes it easier for me if I physically see it.

But over all - YES I would love to see pics and what you did to make it all happen. NMT - I would think be a fun to drive. :)

kh

Kenny T

10-17-2004, 09:52 AM

Damn, I didn't take any measurements at all. I just put the plate up to the centre tranny and said, 'here will do'. It worked out.

I think it would be fun, haven't got the controller(9918) or motor(Feigao 540 12S) yet so I don't know but just running the Novak on 6 cells is fun enough. :)

kufman

10-17-2004, 04:28 PM

Here is my quick conversion of my MBXR2 buggy from ofna. Power by a Feigao 10L, Uforce 75, and 12 2600 mAh cells. I have plans to make it better. Custom chassis, better motor mount, and better battery positioning. It runs pretty good this way, a bit tail heavy on the jumps. I also need to lock out the center diff. Good to see all of you here, been looking for this kind of forum for a while.

kufman

10-17-2004, 04:29 PM

The other side.

starluckrc

10-17-2004, 10:32 PM

studysession

10-18-2004, 10:11 AM

Interesting - how do you like the UFOrce 75? You are running 12 cells on it, does it over heat?

kufman

10-18-2004, 12:47 PM

I like the U-Force 75 a lot. It does get pretty warm in this application, but I mostly use it in my sedans and 1/10 off roaders. It has very smooth start up when running my basic 4200 and aveox rc7. Not as smooth with the Feigao, but still good for sensorless.

rstnboy

10-20-2004, 01:54 PM

kufman,

You have nearly the exact setup I want to build. I am curious as to what you used for motor/differential gearing. Did you use the spur gear that came with the buggy or adapt something else? How about pinions? These gearing is the main thing I believe I need to work out. The motor mount looks simple enough to fabricate or I will just adapt an E-Maxx motor plate. Please send the details to me via email if you don't want to post them here.

studysession

10-20-2004, 01:59 PM

I used the EMaxx motor plate. It is really easier than it looks. I would like to hear what gearing he used as well. :)

kufman

10-20-2004, 05:57 PM

The gearing is kind of ineteresting. I modified a 66 tooth e-maxx spur to fit onto the center differential. I used a 16 tooth pinion from Starluck Rc on the motor. I would have to recommend finding steel pinions as the aluminum ones that Starluck has wear quite quickly. To fit the larger spur gear, I had to put spacers under the center diff uprights. I used old 3/16x3/8 bearings to do the trick. better spacers made out of fiberglass or aluminum would be better. An e-maxx motor plate will work good too. I already had the motor plate from when I converted my RC10-GT to electric. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

studysession

10-20-2004, 06:00 PM

Nice! Thanks for the info!

starluckrc

10-20-2004, 09:09 PM

rstnboy

10-20-2004, 09:52 PM

Thanks all for the replies! I just ordered my buggy today and it should be here in about a week. After I made the request for info, and before I read any of the replies, I thought some more about the center diff gear. I had a spare spur gear from my e-maxx so I took it to work and used a dremel to cut the center section out. One of my co-workers had is MBXR2 there so I used his center diff for a test fit. I managed to get the hole just the right size and keep it concentric as well. The only possible issue is the holes to put the screws through to mount it to the center diff. The spur has some large holes around the perimeter and, while they line up with the diff holes radially, they are not centered. Kufman, did you mount yours with the stock screws or use something else?

Thanks.

kufman

10-21-2004, 07:39 AM

rstnboy,
I used the stock screws but I think I drilled new holes for them... I can't remember.

Starluck,
Stainless should be cool. Will the new one have 5/40 set screws? In my expierence 4/40's don't last very long. Can't wait to try one of the faster motors in my sedan.

starluckrc

10-21-2004, 12:11 PM

4mm set screws like the mod 1 gears.

kufman

10-22-2004, 04:30 PM

4mm sounds good.

Does anybody run a locked center diff on their electric 1/8th? I am tempted to try it in order to get better traction on loose surfaces.

DualBL

10-22-2004, 10:24 PM

I did for a little while.. only time I ever seen an 1/8 wheelie...
didn't seem to hurt it's performance much, but again, i didn't get it really set up, and sold my motor/controllers, and it's been sitting ever since.
-Nick

Mr. Constructor

10-23-2004, 06:46 AM

i do not either used the diff in my conversions, if the diff could be locked on your car, do it, it really will be OK, my next conversion will have a better solution: a slipper suited in it´s duty, thickness a.s.o. to 8th power !!!
i´m really happy with my non diff cars, but slipper would be ideal i think !!
(on loose surface my cars do have way too much power to drive it easily, i wanna benefit from a new slipper construction, hopefully it´ll function the way i think of !!)

kufman

10-23-2004, 11:36 AM

Thanks guys, I think i will start with the silly puddy in the center diff and then move on to epoxy if I like the way it works.

Craps

10-24-2004, 07:24 AM

I locked the center diff with epoxy and found out that was a huge mistake and was one ugly driving buggy.

Jamie with www.starluckrc.com now has the hardened steel mod 1 pitch pinion gears with a 5mm bore and 4mm set screw. 15 and 16 tooth. These will not wear out.

studysession

10-24-2004, 07:28 AM

What is it?

racinlosi

10-24-2004, 11:51 PM

It's a sad, sad day guys! I got sick of electric, and I am going back to nitro! It's up for sale now in the buy/sell/trade forum. I would like to thank you all for all of the help you have given me along the way, it has been apretiated VERY MUCH!

Combatcm

10-27-2004, 06:26 PM

I am thiking of converting my buggy to electric. I have two decisions I need to make, should I use a L can or an XL can nemesis? I am cheap, so I want to use the U force, because people with e-maxxes use them, but can a U force handle a buggy at 14.4v, or should I just stick with the 18.129FW.

thanks

studysession

10-27-2004, 06:37 PM

OK - I said before I am new to CNC'ing parts. I am assuming everyone say my post of the pics of my Hyper 7 conversion a page or so back.

Attached is a drawing I did in SolodWorks of what my custom Hyper 7 motor plate will look like. Nothing special but I do not want to use the modded EMaxx motor plate.

This will be my first attempt at CNC'ing. If tomorrows test goes well, I will try and CNC this Sat or Sun. I recalibrated my stepper motors today, so tomorrows test is making sure the measurements are correct and everything can repetitivly follow the same path again and again without straying from original path. Have to cut in layers. Can't have 2nd layer cut a little off from the 1st and so on.

Anyhoo - tell me what you think of the drawing - I wish they had spell check here.

Mr. Constructor

10-27-2004, 06:39 PM

hmm, the size depends on your room, there isn´t that much room in 12 cell buggy (the u force will go to 12 cell) and the parts have to be aligned mostly in the middle to archieve the best results, so there will be the limitation.
A u force will be almost driveb always by 100 % or even more, the 75 A cont. are (maybe, depends greatly on motor) way too low !!

check the room first, then design it with the motor of the choice and then choose esc as the gearing might affect the choice too !!
maybe there is only a very hard (meaning drawing very high amp) gear ratio that might force you to a bigger amp count on the esc !!

anyway a bigger esc is always a plus, but the money limits your goals i think ??

wich car do you wanna convert ??
and wich motor specially you´re looking for ??

Mr. Constructor

10-27-2004, 06:45 PM

round the edges of the motor shaft cut out, there will be more material thus giving it more strengh when using the very outer position, the rest seems to be ok so far, sizes a.s.o. depends on your measurements and your car, so there might be no chance for us to determine if they´re good or not, how thick will it be ??
minimum should be around 5mm that you have some "flesh" to make inner bores with threads to bolt it on the chassis !!

Looks good, maybe there is room for some weight saving in a few positions ??

good luck to your cnc´ing !!

studysession

10-27-2004, 06:54 PM

Thanks - yes there will be room to take off some weight. Figure for now this will work and keep changing it as I get more practice.

Right now the thickest ali I have a 3mm. I am going to get more later that is thicker. What i am using now is just some scrap from a local place. I am using it for practice and once I have the correct size and shape, i will get some air craft quality ali to do the final one in. For right now it will mount onto the diff brace like the EMaxx plate does now.

For the final one, I want it to me thick enough to make some cooling fins and to be able to engrave my website address on it.

I am doing a couple of articles for a UK RC Magazine. One of the articles will have this buggy and all about the conversion in it. The other is my 540 converted MiniT. It is an RC offroad magazine called MaxBashing.

Thanks!

studysession

10-27-2004, 06:56 PM

As for the measurements - I have them in my notepad. I am new to CADing as well and was not sure how to export without having the measurements apear. So I left them out of the CAD drawing all together.

kh

Combatcm

10-28-2004, 12:08 AM

The car I have is a 9.5 violator, the motor I want to run is the fiageo 10L...or XL, maybe even the 8L. The first step I want to do is buy the motor and get everything squared away with the pinion and mounting and all the other junk. Then I will work into getting dual 8 cell packs on the chassis, which most likely be a stick with dual humps mounted on the rock guards. to decide on the gearing, I will want to keep the max rpm around 35000. I want this thing to be so good people call me a cheater.

First thing I need help on is an actual mount. I had an old motor bracket off an airboat that I think will do the trick, but maybe something bigger and tougher may do. I was actually going to send it in to kershaw designs to put in a slipper and that whole deal, but this will be more than $100 cheaper. I want to side mount it, not mount it emaxx style, just put it alongside of the spur.

glassdoctor

10-28-2004, 03:24 AM

Mr.Constructor

Is the software the same with the Warrior 9018 and 7018? You said you didn't really like the software on the 99...

I'm wondering how the Warriors are holding up in maxxes and 1/8ths.

Also, what about the guys using the UForce 75?

Kufman, is your U75 still OK in the 1/8th? I would like to try this, but really thought I would end up smoking a U75.

The motor I plan to use is a C50 12L, on 12 cells or 14.8 lipos. And if that's not enough, I do have an 8L also.

If these controllers really are not good enough, I will go with the 18.97kw...

My goal: mimic a .21 buggy as close as possible, keep weight down with similar power and handling...

6000-8000 14.8v lipo
C50 12L
controller?

glassdoctor

10-28-2004, 03:29 AM

Oh yeah... I might actually skip the 1/8 buggy for the first project, and pick up the new Hot Bodies Stadium truck.. or truggy. It's basicly still a 1/8th, but with a longer chassis and suspension.

A nice bonus with it would be plenty of room for a long lipo packs.

Well see...

Mr. Constructor

10-28-2004, 04:09 AM

To the Hot Bodies cars:

Take the older Lightning in account it is a direct Kanai 2 Copy and a ver good one, i do own 2 of them, they´re very excellent and all parts from the kyosho could be used. (and it´s only around 290 USD at Tower !!)

To the Esc: the software on the 70 and 99 is the same, but as they hopefully might have improved it (the timing is now switcheable wich mine doesn´t have) it might be better, but mine could be used in 8ths relatively good, when the Motor isn´t geared too bad (then the esc will take too much current during startup and it will cog like mad !!)

Soon i will have the new MGM Com Pro esc wich has up to 12 cell with bec and around 120 A cont power at a price around 190 Euro !!!
If you have 1 or 2 weeks it might be worse the waiting, i will test it in an 8th as it is bought for a new one !!

As for the Motor:
the use of a L might be enough, my Cars do mostly use the S series, and they do have enough power (my 1st 8th conversion was a Kontronik S Sized Motor the car still ran over 45 MH with the smallest pinion.
A XLmotor might be too heavy the power to weight ratio isn´t that good anymore an it will eat up even more of the already small space in a 8th !!
Try to use the L series from eigao, th´revr tough and have plenty enough power espo. with 16 cells !!

kufman

10-28-2004, 07:48 AM

My U-force is still working but I am very careful with my gearing for different types of surfaces. I would personally recommend that you get something that can handle more current. I agree with constructor, the L series from Feigao is plenty of usefull power for my 1/8th and my E-maxx.

studysession

10-28-2004, 02:58 PM

OK -

The stepper motors seem to be calibrated correctly. I put a pencil in the mill and had it draw my DXF file from solid works multiple times and it traced the same lines again and again so I could make sure that they would be able to cut out in layers with multiple passes which is important.

I then found some of my measurements were wrong. I also took Mr Constructors advice and curved up the edges a bit. When I am done I will be able to reproce this easily but it will be a bit time consuming. This will hook upto the back of the center diff of any Hyper 7 like the modded EMaxx motor plate shown in my pictures I posted before.

Anyhoo - here is a pic of the updated drawing. I am now going to take it out to the garage to see if the mill draws it correctly and assuming it does, I will remeasure it up to where I will want the cut out on to be and see if everything matches up. If that works I will cut it out of some 3mm ali i have and mount it this weekend. :)

Wish me luck!

Mr. Constructor

10-28-2004, 03:06 PM

I meant the edges from the cut out for the Motorshaft !!
They could be rounded too as the Motor bearing is always round there could be more flesh on the material to hold the Motor better in place as it will lie with it´s front on more material.

Good Luck !!

studysession

10-30-2004, 07:18 AM

OK - Today I have been messing with the pencil and paper still in my mill. I am going to make some final adjustments and then TRY and CNC this as my first part. Will post how my progress goes. If all goes well my progress will show the above motor plate mounted on my Hyper 7 PBS. :)

Now I just need to find a good resource for ali and CF.

kh

Mr. Constructor

10-30-2004, 08:03 AM

I think CF means Carbon Fibre ??

You cannot cnc it without any safety thinking, this carbon material is VERY dangerous to your health as there will be very fine partikels entering your breathing apparatus and might craeting a sort of cancer IF the material is too much or to highly concentrated, the machin e for cncing carbon has to be only for this material as it should be covered in a plastic see through housing and should have a good filtered ventilation to absorp the partikels, at least you have to wear a safety breathing mask witha ffp3 filter to get the best health protection for yourself.

Please do believe me the materials needed for a cnc carbon cutting are bigger than alu, the mask istself is only the 1st thing in a row of exp. needs !!
(i do cut my plates with a handsaw (with special hardened drilled saw blades) and am using a ffp 3 mask and a one way totally body suit (the paper ones for the painting area is OK) and i do have to clean the working area totally before doing anything else in there esp. after grinding with very fine papers (around 240 or up) the fine partikles are "flying" as they´re very light so the whole room might be little black colored after doing this.

Sorry but it isn´t that good to have those parts cut by a machine as the partikles will be better flown through the whole room.
(the cnc centers from manufacturers do have only one function: one center is ONLY for carbon, the other only for metals.

I know very good what i say as my breathing will be very hard when breathing some of these partikles, so i do have to wear the mask every time i get in this special room !!

(a source for carbon is easy for us here in germany, maybe i could help ya out, but it´ll be better if you could find someone in the states (or do you come from another country ??)

Good Luck with the cnc of this alu plate, the design looks OK to me !!

greetings from Hamburg

studysession

10-30-2004, 08:08 AM

Thanks for the info. I do order a lot from the US and other places but I am in the UK near Harrogate.

studysession

10-30-2004, 05:43 PM

All almost went perfect. The center hole I had to dremel a bit. Everything else was perfect. Not bad for my first time EVER CNC'ing.

Mr Constructor - Do you have one showing everything mounted? I am having hard time figuring out how to mount batteries and electronics.

Thanks!

studysession

10-30-2004, 05:45 PM

The servo tray was a stock tray that I cut down. I will CNC one from scratch soon. But for now this will do.

studysession

10-30-2004, 05:48 PM

I am still undecided on electronics.

kufman

10-30-2004, 07:15 PM

glassdoctor

10-30-2004, 09:23 PM

Guys, I don't have a project done yet... but this is what I am definitely going to do...

I will use an offset center diff, like some of the buggies already have. I will probably cheat it a bit more to the right side of the chassis. Then the motor will mount on the right side of the diff, flat on the chassis for low cg and hopefully some extra cooling with the contact with the aluminum classis.

Then the batteries will go on the left side, as close to the center diff as possible. This layout will keep the cg close to the center of the car, rather than hanging all that weight outside on the side skirts.

The controller will probably mount high over the diff, between the diff and the rear shock tower. This will give it some good cooling with the windshield cut out.

I believe the car can be balanced fairly well depending on what is used for the battery. The motor, servo, rx pack will all be on the right side with the battery on the left. The rx and main batteries wil determine the balance. Lipos will work the best... NImhs are a bit heavy to counterbalance.

For example, a single 14.8 4400 lipo= 15.4 oz, or two 14.8 3100 packs= 19.8 oz
A Feigao L motor 10oz + servo/rx 3 oz + 2/3A rx pack 4 oz = 17 oz

You could mount the esc on the right side as well to put more weight there... esp. if you use 12 cell 3300s (26 oz)

glassdoctor

10-30-2004, 09:28 PM

Hey guys, btw... I have my eye on a *cough* brushed *cough* motor.... that I would like to try.

It appears to be very well suited to place right where the diffs goes. It has shafts on both ends, and the rpm I think is pretty close to what is needed for this setup.

And it's a four pole motor... I'm trying to find out more about this motor, and what the power rating is, etc... and price....

The cool thing about this setup is the drivetrain mass that is eliminated, and that there's a perfect layout for the batteries to mount on each side, very close to the center of the chassis. This would be very close, or less than the RTR weight of the nitro buggies.

If it doesn't work out, someday I still want to try an outrunner, since that's the only BL I can find with shafts on both ends. I called Hacker and asked about a custom shaft for their motors but they have never even heard of such a frankenstein...

Mr. Constructor

10-31-2004, 04:07 AM

For Carbon try these:
www.fibrelite.co.uk
www.carbon-vertrieb.com
www.carbon-composite.de (there is only a "Preisliste" button where you could Download a pricelist, thats all, the rest is done via email.

These are 3 sources for carbon at avery good quality and a affordable price, i do not know what has happened to the first one, they sell parts for the rc car freaks years ago, hopefully they´re not out of business !!
(they´re an english company, wich might be the easiest for you, but both others are german and they will ship it in the UK without problems !!

Good Luck !!

studysession

10-31-2004, 04:20 AM

Cool and thanks!

Any suggestions on mounting the batteries? I like the idea above about putting motor over the diff instead of side. But figure it would hurt perfornce on really high jumps. I try and launch my Hyper 7 the highest i can possibly get it.

studysession

10-31-2004, 05:09 AM

OK - Going to be redoing the part. I want it where I do not have to dremel ANYTHING after. It should just be a completed part and ready to assemble.

Anyone know how to anodize parts? I want to make it purple like the rest of the ali on my H7. Thanks!

Rotary Rocket

10-31-2004, 12:08 PM

I think in my next design I will try to put the motor above the spur gear so that I can get my batteries much, much closer to the center line. True, putting the motor up higher is not a good thing, but then again my batteries weigh more than the motor. Anybody else thought about this??

Kufman, that is exactly what I am going to try for my 1/8 buggy project.

I think the trick is going to be getting a "lighter" motor, like a Hacker C40.

http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168263

studysession

10-31-2004, 12:11 PM

Will a C40 have enough torque to push the 1/8 scale buggy?

Rotary Rocket

10-31-2004, 12:13 PM

On these boards I have seen people use C40 motors to power their E-maxxes (C40 10L, or 12L?!). If they can handle an E-maxx on 12 cells they should handle a 1/8 buggy with no problem (much smaller wheels, less torque needed...).

studysession

10-31-2004, 12:25 PM

I would think the C40 motor would get to hot.

Mr. Constructor

10-31-2004, 03:39 PM

With a OK geared car the heat won´t be an issue, but with the torque and the smaller shaft THAT is a serious problem, i´ve tested it in my very first few builts, the 480 sized C 40 Motor cannot really put that much power than say : a Hacker B 50 L, in such a car and i think if you wanna built a 8th conversion you really wanna have some power in it don´t ya ??

(the comparison between these Motors shows it much better than any words)

for first testing it´ll be OK a C 40 with up to 10 cells (as they´re mostly over their RPM limit when used with 12 cells !!) and see what happens, but the small extra weight in the Motor transforms in a lot better power to weight ratio.

Here´s da Pic:
(the big one is used in a 5th, so take it aside for a while . . . ;-) )

studysession

10-31-2004, 04:01 PM

Nice! :)

studysession

11-02-2004, 03:31 PM

OK -

Runtimes. What kind of run times would people get on 6 or 8 cell setups instead of 12?

Mr. Constructor

11-03-2004, 06:58 AM

The runtimes will be around 8 min with 8 cells and the runtime with 12 cells goes from 12-20 min in a 8th conversion depending on electric choice.

But the amp draw will be pretty high on only 8 cells so the esc should be better in the 100A range !!
(i will be checking the new MGM car esc that is rated at 120A AND 12 cells AND bec in the next few weeks this seems to be a great one )

So the use of 12 cells in a 8th makes sense at all, the battery costs are down (2x 6 cell packs) and the esc and power to weight ratio is OK.
My newest conversion hits the 45 Km/h with only 1/3 trigger as the test pavement was getting watered a little i cannot go higher at the moment.The car weights only 3,1 Kg FULLY ready !! and it is 8th NOT 10th truggy or something like that !!

So the 12 cell choice is a well proven thing, even with the future use of lipos then you´ll have 4 cells and thats it !!

OK esc price is a factor, but the MGM is rated at 190 Euro here in germany THAT IS a word !! so maybe this one will be good choice ??
(i´m really looking forward to this esc . . . cannot wait but my warrior 7018 cannot be used as the rpm is getting too high at 1/2 throttle . . damn !

waiting . . .waiting . . . .waiting . . . ;-)

See ya !!