Acro Bipe w/ Ailerons!

[Jason Nowell]

http://www.millenniumproductions.com/acro/planeandradio.jpg I finally finished the Acro bipe with Ailerons. Made a few other notable changes that greatly improved the performance of this airplane.

The depron foam ailerons were built OFF of the trailing adge of the wing giving me a little more wing area. When I rigged them up, I had them both pointing downwards about 3 to 5 degrees further than the rear slope of the airfoil. This made them act like flaps and made for a much more docile aircraft. I also like the way it turns now. I haven't tried rolling it yet, but it looks marginally possible.
http://www.millenniumproductions.com/acro/ailerons.jpg

I also found the combination to make it ROG and fly on 6 cells. This shaved 2 50mAh batts off the total weight which helped a bunch also. The combination was right under my nose the whole time, still using the Stick motor (GWS DX) in Direct Drive, I cut down the prop that came with the Acro Bipe to 4.5". I may still cut it down another 1/2", but for now, it is noticeably slower, easier to fly, and lighter.
http://www.millenniumproductions.com/acro/nose.jpg
Other modes made were making my own landing gear out of stiffer wire, widening it's stance by about 2 full inches. This allows ROG's with no rudder. It ROG's at 75% power, but torques left at 100%.

http://www.millenniumproductions.com/acro/cockpit.jpg

[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: Jason Nowell ]

[briant]

Jason, I can't see any of the images with your post! This sounds great. I think I am going to buy the foam Cox P-51 and give it the same treatment. BTW, did you have any luck with your 3 channel Tyco? -brian

[Jason Nowell]

Briant:

Sorry about the pic's, I went back and fixed it. My 3 channel Tyco has yet to go, I've been really busy with web sites. I barely had time to get this one airborne.

I did read about something called a Hall Sensor that might be a good solution to the acuator problem. I do have an actuator working, but it took me a while. I really think when I finish a few projects I'll go out and get me a Dynamics Unlimited Flight Pack and do something really cool.

I tried a P-51 once (12" from FunCraft)....not a chance..too heavy, but maybe not with the 3.03 Gram flight pack...

Jason


Jason

[GWS4CEO]

Dear Jason, glad to see your 15" Bipe flwon well.

GWS IPS DX motor with GWS 3"X 2" would be a better match that will give you 60~65g thrust but very little current ( 1.5 ~1.8Amp)only at 7.2V.

You may find this package through dealers.

Cut Union prop will make performance some how lost! Yet, it is not designed for high RPM, but GWS 3X2 is typically designed for this perpose! ;)

Try to see what about my suggestion. Tell me what you will get?

[Jason Nowell]

Mr. Lin,

I posted this before the GWS 3X2 props were available. I have since switched to your prop with great performance. Unfortunately, this aircraft picked a fight with the ground and lost :(

I have another one in prgress, I'll post flying results as soon as it's finished. It will use the Carbon brushed IPS motor and your recommended prop on 6 cells. I can't wait!

Thanks for releasing a direct drive version of your motor, those pinion gears were difficult to remove :)

Jason

[buzzsaw46]

Where do you find this little bipe it's very cool. I need one!!!!!

[buzzsaw46]

I found where just need to know if they are still available??????

[Jason Nowell]

Buzz,

Yep, they are still available, but are getting harder to find. I have been to three or four different Hobby Lobby's around Dallas and only one of them has them in stock. I believe there are other dealers than just HL too. I also know that the store in Denton has 4 or 5 of them in stock, I'm going to get another one also and try some of the new lightening techniques I've learned here on it. It was sorta fast in the original config, but with the new batteries and gear, I bet it would be much more docile. I know I could take at least an ounce off of it now.

Good luck, it's a fun one!

Jason

[mcalicchia]

The Acro-Bipe is available at http://www.StoreofWonder.com.
I just ordered a couple on Friday.

Mike

[buzzsaw46]

Thanks guys I was sure hoping to get my hands on one of these. Jason dont be shy about posting your mods to lighten it up I would like to do it right from the start and this plane is one or two projects from being started so I wont be digging in for a few weeks yet.:D

[KatManDEW]

Jason: Did you paint your Acro-Bipe that way? The picture on www.storeofwonder.com shows a yellow and white fuselage and yellow wings.

Will the Acro-Bipe fly indoors?

[Hollowman]

hey jason i see u have the futaba attack 4 , i have it too and i was wondering if it is possible to put mixer in there what do you think?
and aslo do u think there is a way to transform it form 40 MHz to 72MHz?

[Jason Nowell]

Kat: I used tape to pull the yellow paint off (in an insane moment of weight saving frenzy) and then drew the design on using a black and a blue Sharpie. I don't know of a scale that can record the weight I lost for my 4 hours of work, but it was SOME!! There was an Acro Bipe fad around here and about 6 guys had stock ones so I made mine look different. Yes it will fly indoors, but not at the hands of a novice pilot, they are veryfast and very responsive...I think i landed successfully on my 6th flight. Other pilots flew mine fine the first time.

Hollow: You can purchase an external mixer at your local hobby shop, but I think you have to send it to Futaba for conversion to 72 mHz (I'm not even sure if they do it) but it'd be worth a try.

Jason

[KatManDEW]

Jason: WHich GWS IPS DX motor is that? I looked on Todds models and there are several different GWS "DX" motors. (DX-A, DX-B, etc.)

Do you think this is the absolute best motor for the Acro-Bipe, or are there other, possibly better motors?

[Jason Nowell]

Kat,

The GWS motor is in Direct Drive (the A,B,C are different gear ratios). Loose the gearbox and get yourself a Union U-80 prop or one of the GWS 2.5x3 orange props and get after it!

I just started another one that will use my lightened GWS reciever and ESC with 2 Jamara Bit servos lightened to just over 3 grams. These are superb servos and can be lightened a great deal with little effort (more on this later). Plus at 5.6 grams starting at $28 from EAM, they kill the HS-50 in price and are the same weight.

I am writing up my new conversion for RCMicroflight so I don't want to give all the details away hear :)

Good Luck, keep it light, use very small control throws, and be ready for a rocket on the first flight.....this one can get away from you fast.

Jason

[Sr71fan]

Hey Jason,

I don't think GWS makes a 2.5x3 prop. May I suggest a 3/2 instead?

Gary :D

[MicroPhil]

Found one at my local Hobby Lobby hear in Houston, but cost was 15 dollars. At Storeofwonder.com- cost 8 dollars but shipping is another 8. I don't mind paying the shipping, but I would like to order other things with it. Is there another web site that might carry more goddies along with the Acro Bipe?
Phil

[Jason Nowell]

Phil. I pay $15 at Hobby Lobby....it's worth it :)

On another note, I just finished my newest Acro Bipe and it's all up weight is 2.8 ounces and it flys like a dream. This is by far my best one yet.

I used aileron and elevator again, but this time I used an N-20 geared 4:1 with a Zagi prop. The 6 120mAh NiMh cells give me just over 4 minutes of flight. The light weight makes for a much better flying plane. The rocket GWS version was fun and very aerobatic, but the new one can be flown in the smallest of places. A full court basketball gym would be more than enough space....so far I have only flown it outdoors though. it handles the wind better than I could have hoped for.

I used GWS reciever and Jamara Bit servos (like a CS-10 but lighter and without the ball bearings). I did all the weight saving things like removing the connector block, replacing much of the wire with magnet wire, etc.

I'll post some flying pics soon, but wanted to let you guys know that a geared N-20 is plenty of power. I wasn't too sure if it would pull it or not, but it didn't let me down.

Jason

[Dave Robelen]

Hi Jason,
Which version of the N20 are you using?
Cheers, Dave Robelen

[Jason Nowell]

Sorry Dave, I should have specified that, I'm using the 3V version. I only use the 3V version now because they handle 7.2 volts just fine. I've never burned one up in a gear drive...I have fried several in direct drive though.

They sure do put out the rev's at 7.2V though :)

Jason

[SeanB]

Hi Jason,

I started this project a long time ago, but got side tracked. I have gone through two different GWS motors, trying to get this thing running properly. The first was my mistake since I tried to get the pinion gear off a little to roughly. The 2nd (graphite brushes) was a faulty motor somehow. The motor connection slipped right into tne motor and I could never get it to work properly.

I bought two new GWS motors, but I have a question, do I have to wire the motor in reverse to get it to run properly? I am using the Pixie 7P ESC and every time I try to wire the red positive to the + on the motor the prop turns the wrong way.

Is it all right to run these motors backwards? I seem to be getting a pulse while the motor is running.

What batteries are you suggesting now?

Help Me! I have had this plane waiting to go for over 3 months.

Should I just try the N-20 or the DC 5-2.4 instead?

Thanks for the help,

SeanB
seanb2@home.com

[Jason Nowell]

Sean,

Yes, you must wire the motor backwards, GWS motors are "zero timed" and don't really care which direction they are turning. This motor will give you the best performance for aerobatics and speed. The 4:1 geared N-20 i'm using now makes for a fairly slow and docile verion. I'm flying mine indoors so this was what I wanted.

You can buy just the GWS motor from EAM ( www.eam.net ) with no pinion for $10 or something. it really depepnds on what flight characteristics you are looking for, if you are not comfortable with a fast 4 channel sport plane, go with the N-20 setup. If you're sure you can handle it, go with the GWS setup, it's a real blast, but I usually end up crashing mine (my fault, not the airplane).

If you are getting a pulse, you probably don't have a capacitor bridge on the back of the motor to suppress the electrical noise generated by it. Go to Radio Shack and get a # 103 capacitor. #103 is stamped on it, I believe it's a 10-100uF capacitor but don't quote me on that. Solder the capacitor across the positive and negative connection poles on the back of the motor and this should correct the problem.



Jason

[KatManDEW]

How about the 4.2:1 geared N20's at Todd's Models (http://www.toddsmodels.com/N20.htm) ?

[Mikerjf]

Jason;

Saw this post a few weeks ago and had to have one. I built mine with the GWS motor and added ailerons to the top wing. Came out at 4.2 oz. with an 8 cell 280 mah nimh pack. I haven't flown it yet and was wondering if I could get your insight on what to expect. I've determined the CG should be 1/8 to 1/4 behind the lower wings leading edge, and I've got 3/16 up and 1/8 down on the ailerons and 1/4 up and down on the elevator (-90% expo on both). I'd appreciate any info you can provide.

Thanks

Mike

Incidentally I'm using a 3x?(2) prop that I found in a prop box at my local Hobby Shop, it's a push fit on the GWS shaft and it comes with a spinner (looks kind of cool). The owner ordered them from Horizon, next time I'm there I'll find out what they're used on.

[Jason Nowell]

Mike,

Way to go, sounds like you are about ready. What to expect, speed! That is about the weight of the one shown flying on the nirac site ( www.nirac.org/video.htm ) Keep that expo in there and you should be fine. With my dumb thumbs, I would cut the throws down a bit, but you can probably handle it. At those throws, you can roll 360 degrees in about 1 second...I've seen it.

The prop sounds perfect, you will have plenty of power. ROG's are near impossible with all that power, I could only accomplish them by literally jamming the throttle all the way up and leaping off the ground in just a few feet. Slow roll outs do not work on the short coupled little bipe.

You might consider test flying it with a smaller pack to keep the wing loading down (and less energy to be absorbed by the airframe in the event of a mishap). once you have it trimmed and get a feel for it, put that 280 pack back in there and have a ball.

Cheers,

Jason

[Mikerjf]

Finally got the time and conditions to fly it. Didn't have a pack to replace the 8c 280mah nimh pack with that would work, so I used it and figured I can throttle back. Wow says it all. It took off and climbed (rocketed) straight out. The wind (9mph) blew it in some and it just kept climbing. After it was out about 200 ft. I bagged and pulled it to 1/2 throttle. Flew fine there. The -90% expo is a bit of overkill but was good for the first flight. Lost it in the sun twice so I cut it short and plopped it in the snow. Next flights going to be with one (or two ) fewer cells. This things a panic!

The prop I found is a replacement prop for the Hobbico Fly Zone planes (Windword, Sky Force). Nice little 3x2 push on with a spinner.

[LanceF]

Reading this thread a month or so back got me enthusiastic about the idea of an acro-bipe (my pico cub lacks the drama that I think the acrobipe will provide).

So off I went to the store of wonder website and ordered a few of them...at 8 bucks a peice I figured I'd get a couple for spare parts, because I'm an expert at flying like a novice.

In Jason's photos I could see how he mounted his servo for ailerons, but where did you mount the servo (and how) for elevator? I put mine just behind the lower wing on the left side, and mounted horizontally. Now I wish I would've mounted it vertical so I'd have a bit more room inside the fuse to position a battery.
Has anyone tried flying theirs on a nimh 9v (like the rayovac?). I went with the GWS direct drive motor and 3x2 prop, and on the 9v (7 150 cells) it really feels like it's got some thrust. I have not gotten around to rigging up wire or thread to the control surfaces. I'm thinking I may try R/E since I'm still a bit new to all this. Going R/E makes me wish I'd moutned both servos further back to make getting the CG easier.

I also cut the heavy wires off the gws ic050 esc and used much lighter motor and battery leads, and terminated my battery lead with the cheap radio shack 9V type connector so I can just plug it directly onto the 9v battery. So no switch, and it's on when the battery is plugged in.

I'm wondering if anyone has thought to try one or two of the 600mah LI cells from the neopoint phones. Two of them weighs right at about 1.3 oz (according to average digital postal scale), and that's 7.2 volts at 600mah. Too heavy? Any idea if one 600mah cell would fly it? Maybe a geared N20 on a 3.6v LI cell?

Any thoughts are welcome. Oh and Jason, I saw the vid of you piloting yours around the indoor gym. Pretty neat stuff. Glad you shared.

I can post a pic or two of mine if anyone's interested...but be warned, it's pretty vanilla looking compared to Jason's custom Bipe. :)

PS Anyone fly up around Amarillo/Dumas? I need some flying buddies, because there sure isn't much r/c car racing up here. I used to race in Houston almost daily.

[MicroPhil]

Lance,

Sure I would like to see some photo. So where did you race in Houston? If you are ever back this way, come and check out our indoor flying session.

Philip

[LanceF]

I used to race quite often at K&M and Performance Raceway (now Reflex RC?). I just moved up north of Amarillo a few months ago...and I'm really kicking myself for not getting into electric flight when I had all these golden opportunities living in Houston. I'm sure I'm not alone, I know of a lot of gifted and intelligent r/c car racer guys (like myself) that are totally oblivious to how much fun flying can be. And to think I was just blocks away from a really awesome and cutting edge hobby shop (Just Hobbies in the Woodlands). That shop had fantastic employees, and the owner (Mark) was a really neat guy too.

Next time I'm down there (soon I hope) I will definitely plan on making some of the flying venues.

Oh, wanted to post a pic or two...excuse the resolution, but I had to scale 'em down at home when I was working on a dialup connection. :)

[Mikerjf]

Mine's constructed a little differently. I left the nose intact and cut out around the plastic bushing, then glued a 1/32 ply motor mounting plate to the front of the cowl and screwed the motor to the plate (I like things that are serviceable). Then I made two vertical cuts in the fuse down to the glue seam. One behind the cabane and one behind the canopy. These are connected by a horizontal cut at a 45 at the top edge of the blue stripe. This allows you to hinge the canopy with a piece of tape on one side and keep it closed with a pice of tape from the canopy to the turtledeck on the other and gives you easy access to the inside of the fuse. My aileron servo's mounted like Jason's but it's screwed to the spar and the wing. The elevator servo is mounted to two 1/8 H x 1/4 W lite ply rails across the fuse just behind the aileron servo (there's actually enough room for two servo's if you get creative, if I get ambitious I'm going to add rudder for rog's). The esc fits on the bottom of the fuse behind the motor and the rx is in front of the aileron servo and I put a removeable foam spacer on the esc and rx and wedged the battery into the nose on top of it.
The 9v pack will work but the motor draws almost 2 amps at full throttle so duration suffers, but since it's good for over 40 mph you (I) don't spend a lot of time at full throttle (it gets real small real fast).

Hope this helps.

Mike

[LanceF]

Ok, I took another couple of pics of my little bipe last night. I've got to justify this nice digicam somehow :)

Of course looking back I see that I could have done things differently, like making the motor easily removable...so when I doink it into the ground and bend the shaft I can replace it easily. Using a plate is good advice that I'll keep in mind for next time. I just put a small dab of expoxy on the gws motor and put it in the hole the bushing left. I used the "T.L.A.R" principle (that looks about right). After threading the wires though the fuse I made small tiny solder joints (didn't use the motor connectors) and then tucked the esc and related wiring in the fuse. (I added about 1 gram of polyester pillow fill in there to keep anything from shifting.) I think I may have to get one of those azarr little antennaes, as that long gws one is just everywhere! (Note that it's wrapped all around the plane...i'll remedy that before flying...err...crashing it.)

I see that the goldmine has 50mah nicad cells in a 6 cell pack for $4. Might have to order up some of those for the direct drive. I really think a geared N20 on a 70mah nimh might get the job done with an auw of around 3oz or so. In the pic that yellow thing hanging out the back is the 9v connector for my rayovac. Last night I got in my LI prismatic cells from the neopoint phones. I think I could pull 2.5amps off these. Hmmm.... 3.6 volts (more when charged) and 600mah could run a geared N20 "all day". Any epinions?

Oh, and as a side note....any heat at all will quickly singe the fuse...I found this out the fast way while heating a bit of shrink over some solder joints.

[MicroPhil]

Lance,

Just Hobbies in the woodlands? I haven't been there yet, guess they are in the phonebook? I will have to look them up, are they off 45?

Nice job on the plane

Philip

[sinkinpat]

I am new to planes I have flown gliders but never really got into the powered stuff. But these conversions are right up my alley. I have been converting 1/35 tanks and trucks to rc for years my latest is a 1/35 rc jeep. But I have been bitten by the bug to try some of these. I started converting the Cox viper and now have also ordered 3 of these biplanes for my next trial. My problem now is finding a hobby shop with the electrics in stock. The tigermoth is so popular I can't get my hands on the electronics for a hitech radio. Well eventualy I will find some. so I see you guys are putting the servo on the outside of the fusalage. I understand why for the alerons but I havn't seen mine yet as they havn't arrived. Is it to tight in there to install the elevator servo in th fusalage. Are you using pull pull controls or push rods. I still don't understand the amps stuff yet. for now I will just copy what you guys are doing. I purchased the nimh 9v. are you charging these with peak chargers or just tricklecharging them with the 9v charger? I can't wait to try to get one of mine in the air. N20 is that a type of motor? I have tons of motors from all of my tank conversions and gears too, many out of toys and such most are the same size made by mabuchi or however you spell it. I think these are n20 by the looks of them at tods models. I already have cs-10bb servos from one of my other projects are these light enough? also do you thing the cox prop with spinner will work with this wounder. sorry so many questions. just trying to get to speed here in the land of micro flight.

[sinkinpat]

I recieved my 3 acro bipes last night. I think there will be no problem getting in the air. Hey you guys getting excited over the tyco canned heat. I use those for my rc tanks. a new product which you can see in the previous photo of the 1/35 rc jeep used a Tomy Bit charge. It is the smallest rc car in the world right now. it runs off one 50 mah battery. you can see the battery on the rear fender of the jeep for size comparison. It uses actuators for the stearing. pirate that stuff you are ready for an ultra micro rc plane. Ps it runs off a pager motor and you can buy hotter motors for it and run a 100mah Nimh instead. only thing. it is not imported into the states yet. you have to buy online or over ebay.

See Tomy Bitcharge for mire info.

[Bandman]

Jason - Do you think your article on the Acro Bipe will be in the February Micro Flight Issue? I picked an Acro Bipe up today but was hoping to see your article before I start building/modifiying.

Any chance you would forward a copy of the article you sent to Micro-flight??

email is dgrush@hotmail.com if you are willing to forward article.

Thanks!
Bandman

[BrokenChild]

LanceF

Thats a nice plane you got there budd. What does it cost to get the full package for one of these small planes anyway? Thats for everything, radio, plane, ESC, ect, ect... Say there Lance, whats your name if you dont mind me asking? I bet I know you. Its been a while since I've flown... I'm the kid at the feild every once in a great while watching people splinter airplanes, and some of the people out there think I'm the idiot :D Its been a while since I've been in Amarillo, but I do live in Dumas :D Drop me a line sometime, maybe sometime soon I'll be graduated and be flying again.... Ahh... its been to long!

flyin'poet

granddadsflyinpoet@hotmail.com