Any bets on what will be the fastest? Nitro, Electric, and how fast? [Archive]

MegaMe

05-13-2004, 08:41 PM

well i while i think electric will win, i dont think that lipoly has that much of an advantage over nimh cells... because for top speed, weight dosent really matter, all that matters is how much power you have compared to how much drag you have.(aerodynamic and rolling resistance i guess)

because in 24" you can still fit plenty of cells and still have it pretty low to the ground, aerodynamics arent changed much probably if you go with nimh instead of lipoly, so which is better depends on which kind of batteries can deliver more power, nimh or lipoly. IMO what limits the power lipoly can give is the cost of having lots of cells, they are expensive if you want to use lots of them, whareas nimh are much more common. for example with nimh you could perhaps organise with the people at you local track so a few people donated a pack each and you had a team effort for the worlds fastest car.
also possibly lipolys also cant deliver as much current as good nimh's... but maybe people can expand on that...

also people must be aware that whatever bodies they use need to give some downforce at the front... just if you hit a bump at 100mph if your car dosent have some downforce i wouldnt want to be the one to pick up the pieces...

im tipping a nimh loaded brushless to come out on top...

crank throw wei

05-14-2004, 12:48 AM

I think nitro has the greater potential for the record,but I think electric is more developed. It really will depend on the entrants.My guess is electric.

metalry101

05-14-2004, 01:24 AM

Combatcm~
Actually there are BL controllers that can handle huge cell counts. Here's a link Check out the Schulze 40-160 (http://www.finedesignrc.com/speedcontrols.asp#Castle%20Brushless%20Speed%20Con trols). The 40 stands for 40 cells, and the 160 stands for 160 continuous amps. Not cheap by any means, but it would do the job. There are many other controllers on the market that can handles 18 or even 24 cells, and I think there are even a few others that can handle 32 or 36.

As for what will win? I think a nitro could do it. I think it'd have to be at least dual engined though. Electric, well, it's easy to strap a couple of extreme HiPo BL motors and a lot of cells in a car, but it's just as easy to strap a couple of RB 28's in a car and gear it to the moon, so I think it's just gonna come down to the designers. I really think either could win, both systems have their advantages, and actually, if stability isn't an issue, nitro would have a huge advantage over a massive BL system in weight. The real big "big blocks" are by no means light, but the real HiPo BL motors are the size of coke cans, and 40 cells, well, that's a whole lotta weight, I'd be willing to bet that's over 5 lbs of batteries. Assuming that 2 BL motors and 2 big nitro engines weigh the same, that means the car would have to have more than a half of a gallon of fuel on board to make up for the weight of the batteries (assuming a very high cell count). I think a well engineered nitro could spank an electric's ass quite handily.

PeterV

05-14-2004, 09:37 AM

Any car that pushes 100mph will not be cheap, but the winner won't be the guy who can buy the most power. The real problems with going fast are keeping the car on the ground, keeping the tires hooked up, and keeping the tires on the rims. The cetrifugal forces acting on the wheels are HUGE...just look at the RPM you hasve to turn at 100mph (see our online calculator). And the aerodynamic forces are incredible. The amount of horsepower required to increase speed by just 1mph increases exponentially as vehicle speed increases. It doesn't take much power to go from 50mph to 51mph, but to go from 100 to 101 is quite a different story. Even if you have the power to get the extra mph, it'll be useless if you don't have the traction. Maybe we'll see some ELF-style, winged six-wheeler in the winner's circle!

Chris LaPanse

05-14-2004, 10:49 AM

not likely .....
Yep.
The world record for RC boats is held by a Lehner 1950 on 32 cells. This beat the previous record set by a boat with a .91 engine putting out around 10hp. Electrics will rule :D

Chris LaPanse

05-14-2004, 10:52 AM

metalry101

05-14-2004, 10:55 AM

D'oh
Could still work, not like adding a liquid cooling system would add that much weight, especially to a car running 40 cells. But ya, I forgot about that one, all of the really really extreme BL controllers are designed for boats. Thanx 4 pointin' that one out.

skylineman

05-14-2004, 03:03 PM

you guys remember that vid with the 200mph tether cars? well those ran on .049 baby b engines. so my idea is an hpi micro rs4 with baby engine conversion. hehe. pity i cant enter as im in south africa...and some of you think its far???? :rolleyes:

DaFF

05-14-2004, 03:10 PM

I can almost bet my pay check that electric will win both hands down !

For one thing, it is way easier to break a speed record with an electric than a nitro.

There is multiple reason for this, but the most obvious are:

1- Brushless can get easely twice the rpm any nitro could dream off and can push high torque from 0 to top rpm

Look-out for 65 000 rpm under load electric beast, while nitro would have a hard time getting over 35 000 rpm under load !

Rpm is what allow your car you to have a high speed, low down torque are the "balls" necessary to get to that speed in a reasonnable time and distance.

Nitro, would have to compensate using multiple speed system (read more complicated and more $$$ to have a reliable, very high power 3 or more speed system), and very expensive custom gear to get to an extremly high top speed.

2- The new battery technology (read Lithium Polymer) would be a very high advantage over the NimH / Nicad for breaking speed record

Very easy to understand: more volts means less amp, more efficency, more power to the ground, less dissipated power ( joule effect) and the only way to have more than 1000 Watt motor.

Power (in Watt) = Volt x Amp

If you want to increased the power, you have to increase the voltage, otherwise you will end-up having cable the size of my toes and esc and motor dissipating heat like crazy.

For instance, 22 volt would be a minimum, but I would not be surprise to see 30+ volt system pumping-out incredible power.

For exemple, 1000 Watt motor under a regular 7.2 volt means an outrageous 140 Amp which translate into extreme $$$ esc.

The same 1000 Watt under 22.2 volt means a reasonnable 45 Amp, which translate into way less money, small regular esc (without even big fins LoL).

That's were the Lipo shine big time really because with 3.7 volt par cell instead of 1.2 volt, there is no need for extended chassis, extra weight for 12+ 1.2 volt cell and so on.

With the brushless and Lipo, you'll see car breaking the 100 mph barrier very easy and all that without breaking you bank account.

BTW, I am already building a high end 1/10 Pro4 + brushless + Lipo, mind you not for all out speed record, but it will sure knock the pants off a lot of nitro sedan !

DFF

Chase023

05-14-2004, 03:11 PM

Actually the motor was a Lehner 2250 8 turn for the fastest boat.
He probably used the Schulze fut-32.170W or the fut-40.160WK or something like it for the controller.

DaFF

05-14-2004, 03:34 PM

Lehner biggest brushless are 2270, look here:

http://home.t-online.de/home/lehner-motoren/p00index.htm

Otherwise, the common mistake is to think that low turn brusless motor are faster than high turn motor.

As a matter of fact, if you followed my theory on the "more voltage = more power", you will need to go with a lower turn motor, because a 8 turn motor under 22.2 or more volt will just go pass the rpm limit and explode, sending rotor pieces miles away LoL !

For speed record, watch the high turn motor, less than 3000 Kv brusless motor that have incredible torque and efficency number.

Drive them with high volt, close to the rpm limit and they will push any car well over 100 mph mark.

For those interested in numbers and curves, watch here:

http://home.t-online.de/home/lehner-motoren/d08index.htm

DFF

*Miller*

05-14-2004, 05:16 PM

Can folk outside of the US enter?

Chase023

05-14-2004, 06:05 PM

Lehner 2270s bigger than the Lehner 2280s???

Chris LaPanse

05-14-2004, 07:06 PM

The biggest ones are the 22 series, the biggest of which is the 2280 (about the size of a coke can)
He was probably talking about the 27 series, which is actually smaller than the 22 series. The 27 series was the predecessor to the 19 series.
By the way, chase- the controller was the 32.170W.

jknapp4888

05-14-2004, 07:32 PM

streetracer

05-14-2004, 07:38 PM

Well, keep in mind that these cars have to pass the 111MPH recored set by the RC10L30 by Associated Electronics Of last year. That one was electric with like 16 cells i think? So, gas may be fast, but electric still takes the cake, also in acceloration.

Kyle

Interstate

05-14-2004, 08:03 PM

I though cliff had 22 cells on board, many of them AA size. But like steve said, they may get to triple digits first, but lack the torque to pull them even further. This is why I'm thinking the nitros will be the winners.

DualBL

05-14-2004, 08:51 PM

cliff used 2/3 AA's actually...
and I've heard of a TC3 with a 1930/5 on 16 that pushed 120mph.. till it got airborn, and blew apart. =\
-Nick

PeterV

05-14-2004, 09:16 PM

Miller: since this is the WORLD'S Fastest RC Car Challenge, anyone from this planet can enter! So, unless you're Michael Jackson, you're in.

We'll be working out an official entry form soon, once the date for Irwindale is set.

thematrixkid

05-14-2004, 09:26 PM

i was wondering.. im not an electric guy, but does anyone use peltier junctions to cool their ESCs? I've read about them, they are a wafer thing that transfers heat from one side to the other, with a little electricity..... a lot of times they are used to cool computer processors.

Interstate

05-14-2004, 09:52 PM

That's been brought up before. They can put frost on hot CPUs and such effortlessly. The only concern is that if you sneeze too hard when you're near them is they break, so they've never really been applicable to RC cars. I suppose one could use it on these cars, but it does use electricity. How ever small that amount is, is too large for the serious racer, they want all the juice they can get, for as long as possible, even if it means a pile of melted magnets and copper at the end of the race.

thematrixkid

05-14-2004, 10:31 PM

are they really that fragile? whoa, i think they make some stronger ones though cause they are used in some of those battery operated mini mini refrigeratiors

Chris LaPanse

05-14-2004, 10:55 PM

Ok, I've just gotta say this as I am not an electrical genius......anyone want to translate all that into english?? LOL Sounds like you guys know your stuff, but having built race cars (real ones) in my life, I am gonna put my money on a nitro car to win and win big.

Just my two cents.......
The biggest ones are the 22 series, the biggest of which is the 2280 (about the size of a coke can)
He was probably talking about the 27 series, which is actually smaller than the 22 series. The 27 series was the predecessor to the 19 series.
By the way, chase- the controller was the 32.170W.
Here it is in english:
The largest motors that lehner makes are the 22 series (2230, 2240, 2250, and 2280) Out of these the biggest is the 2280, which is the size of a coke can:
http://www.finedesignrc.com/motors/lehner2280.jpg
It will take 24-32+ cells, and put out up to 3500+ watts (5hp) at 50000 rpm.
The 27 series is an old line of motors that has mostly been replaced by the 19 series (1920, 1930, 1940, and 1950) These will take 12-20 cells, and put out up to 2000 watts (3hp) at up to 50000 rpm.
The controller that I mentioned, the 32.170W, is very simple to understand. The 32 means up to 32 cells, and the 170 means 170 amps continuous current. The W simply means that it is water cooled. Hope this is in plain enough english for you ;)

edit: I would put my money on electric, as I don't think a nitro car could make the 5hp that the 22 series can make and put it down effectively to the ground.

crank throw wei

05-14-2004, 11:23 PM

How ever small that amount is, is too large for the serious racer, they want all the juice they can get, for as long as possible, even if it means a pile of melted magnets and copper at the end of the race.

It still has to run afterwards.No sacraficial motors.

Gyro Gearloose

05-15-2004, 01:17 AM

you guys remember that vid with the 200mph tether cars? well those ran on .049 baby b engines.

No, those ran on .61 cu in engines, no zero in front, probably around 10 horsepower, if you go look the exhaust is like two inches long on those too, to move the peak HP up as high in the RPM band as possible.

I'm predicting an electric, simple pan chassis. Well over 120 if someone has access to a windtunnel(college?), the aerodynamics is what will be the limiting factor, air resistance is a beeech at those speeds.

My serpent 950 can hit 75-80 easily enough with a strong .21, but like PeterV said, power requirements go up exponentially at those speeds to get a few mph more, though.

DaFF

05-15-2004, 02:23 AM

For those hesitating to enter the challenge, all I have to say is that by today technology (brushless + Lipo) it doesn't take a hell of $$$ to go well over 100 mph.

Actually, I might try some brushless + Lipo setup that could surprise a lot of ppl for less than a grand.

I think my next purchase will be a speed gun LoL

DFF

Chase023

05-15-2004, 05:01 AM

This is gonna get a little bit expensive especially with a 22 series Lehner motor (1400-3000 Watts depending on what motor) and a high cell controller like the Schulze fut-32.170W or the fut-40.160WK..and that would be just the powerplant... Ewwww..

I wonder if most people entering will have this type of set up..damn..heh :eek:

The challenge will be able to keep those tires glued to the wheel and keeping the car on the ground instead of airborne..heh :p

DaFF

05-15-2004, 05:40 AM

OK, I don't want to say too much about what I have under my sleeve, but here is a rough idea of a budget for an electric high speed car:

200$ - A used electric 1/10 chassis
200$ - One "over 1000 Watt" brushless motor (no need to go as big as a 2240, to my opinion), there are 1300 Watt high quality motor for around 150$
200$ - One brushless electric speed control ( 80 Amp continuous could be sufficient if you go with high voltage, this is a key element)
300$ - High voltage, high discharge Lithium polymer cells (over 22.2 volt is necessary)
120$ - High end Lipo charger (like the Astro 109)

I did not take into account the radio, servo and all the good stuff any ppl should already have if serious about this challenge.

So for close to a grand, one could have an excelent system that could go well over 100 mph....

I don't think you would compete in the same league as the manufacturer or independant team, but I am sure you could be a the top of the independant class.

From the rules:

Entrants will be divided into three classes: Manufacturer Team, Independent Team and Individual.

MANUFACTURER TEAM: entries fielded by RC companies will run in the Manufacturer Team class.

INDEPENDANT TEAM: if the entered vehicle is the collaboration of three or more individuals operating without the support of a manufacturer, it will run in the Independent Team class. High school shop teams, university engineering departments, RC clubs ... this is your class!

INDIVIDUAL: any vehicle entered by a single person will run in the Individual class.

Just be creative, go to the brushless forum, ask questions and you will see it is not out of reach.

We sure don't have the same money as the team, but by using our brain and designing an efficient setup, I am sure some will be very surprised as to what 1000$ can do !

DFF

James

05-17-2004, 11:58 PM

I think a nitro will take it. My idea (if I were to enter the contest) would be to somehow fit a 5 or more speed tranny into the car. Easy as that (kinda)! :cool:

crank throw wei

05-18-2004, 12:41 AM

A nitro has enough of an RPM range that I don't this that many gears would be needed.I think torque would be more of an issue at speeds beyond 100 MPH.

DaFF

05-18-2004, 03:12 AM

Here is what I predict for the nitro guys:

Two R&B 28 TM ( wait for the race version ) with a 3 speed geared to the moon.

DFF

Gyro Gearloose

05-18-2004, 03:38 AM

I think I would look elsewhwere, I think something not out of the 'little car' parts box. Look around at all the technology from other areas besides .21 size nitro RC cars.
I think a 1.00 inch ducted fan engine ( 10-12 or more horsepower ) could be used. LOL, I don't know how to get that kind of power to the ground, though. If it can be put to the ground and controlled on that track....

Some of the 1/5 scale hardware might be up to it, maybe...

Remember, you have a platform two feet long by what, 12 or 16 inches wide(approximately), that's a lot of room to carry some real horspower I'm thinking...

To truly go fast will take some fairly serious aerodynamic testing, and a fiberglass body to hold up to the kind of atmospheric pressures at 150mph(heh). Someone that can get access to a small windtunnel at a university would have a big advantage.

(just rambling in my mind)

Chris LaPanse

05-18-2004, 06:31 PM

I think an electric will take it. The problem with nitro is that you have to get air to the cooling head. No matter how you do this, it is going to add drag, wheras with an electric, you can have a smooth shell with no gaps fo engine cooling. I think this could translate into a huge advantage on the track. Also, I agree with Gyro, having use of a wind tunnel would be a huge advantage. :D

Craps

05-18-2004, 07:02 PM

Just think some of the factory guys may have better cars, but will they be using the latest battery and motor technology. Alot those guys will be limited to what they're company sells or is affilated with.

Team Trinity with brushless and Li-Pos! That'll be the day.

Maybe Team Hacker Brushless with Thunder Power using anybody's custom made RC will take it. Don't be surprised to see it happen.

The motor/ESC/battery voltage package is very critical that these guys can get things that are not available yet to the consumer.

ElectricThunder

05-18-2004, 07:12 PM

I think electric can steal the record. They can get plenty of power and high RPMs. Plus torque on an electric motor is instantaneous as opposed to a nitro spooling. Plus the torque for the nitro is probably in the lower RPM range which doesn't do you any good when you want to hit high RPMs for speed.

If I could enter, I would use a set up like this (if i had DEEP pockets):

Custom AWD touring car with a center diff (like in a 1/8 buggy) with two large BL motors powering the same drive shaft on some crazy amount of cells with super sticky foamies and a nice aerodynamic shell.

Interstate

05-18-2004, 07:39 PM

Electric Thunder, you're correct in saying that electrics torque is instantaneous, but it's all down low. Someone even said earlier that (with electrics) as RPM's increases, torque decreases. So with higher wind drag, the lower torque in the higher revs will only hurt top speed ability. Engine manufacturers have been trying for years to get the torque lower, I think the best I've seen is dead in the middle. But torque increases as revs increases (to a point) with nitros.
You also have to remember that while electrics may spin up to 60000rpms and nitros 'only' get up to about 35000, the cars will most likely be geared differently.

ElectricThunder

05-18-2004, 07:57 PM

Interstate

05-18-2004, 08:44 PM

I'm thinking that too; with electric you just add cells for more power, nitros need careful tuning, that very few people can do.

Chris LaPanse

05-18-2004, 09:29 PM

That is true, although the torque on electrics (at least brushless) is still incredible even at higher RPM. There was an airplane on BL and LiPO cells that kept up in the unlimited stunt class. (I think, but i'm not that knowledgeable on airplanes) It spun a 11+ inch prop on direct drive to fly a 1/3 or 1/4 (i'm not sure) scale airplane into incredible stunts. Now tell me that isn't incredible high end power. Still, it could be a close match between electric and nitro.

GForce

05-20-2004, 01:03 AM

Is anybody using a drag car (rail, funnycar or pro stock) for this competition?

cretin

05-20-2004, 11:31 AM

making a car go super fast won't be the problem. controlling it will. i must be one of the few who doesn't really have a hard-headed opinion of either nitro or brushless (cause face it, a brushed motor doesn't have a chance... sorry, trinity!) as superior, cause i think each has just as good a chance as the other.

cretin

05-20-2004, 11:36 AM

ok, thinking about the possibilities for nitro (i'm a recent convert... from a clod to a savage). several years ago, i read an article in hot rod about a bonneville team that used nitrous oxide on their car. not as a power adder, but to cool the engine compartment. they just fogged the engine compartment to cool the engine. something like this could be used in a nitro car to keep it cool without needing any large forward-facing openings in the body.

crank throw wei

05-20-2004, 08:18 PM

shibby6

05-20-2004, 08:40 PM

my bet

a dual brushless 1/8 buggy thats modded to be low the the ground li-pos custom made bullet style bod that covers all the car

imo nitro wont win

Craps

05-20-2004, 09:05 PM

The problem with building a streamline body for an 1/8th scale will be making the body streamline and stay within the 24" length rule. Also body material will important above 100 mph may distort lexan or plastic without reinforcing.

slbks5

05-21-2004, 05:48 AM

I bet someone could make this fast!!! http://neweramodels.com/motorcycle/bike_chop/motorcycle_2x2.jpg

slbks5

05-21-2004, 05:49 AM

http://www.neweramodels.com/

cretin

05-21-2004, 08:52 AM

yep, body distortion is a real problem. i read an article about videotaping drag races, and saw how badly some of the cars' front ends distorted at high speeds. the airflow disruption more than made of for the weight savings, and many drivers put the reinforcements back in their front ends.

again, i can't say with any certainty if i think a nitro or a brushless setup will win, but my vote does go to a touring car. i don't think you're gonna get a track smooth enough for drag cars or other pan-style rides, unless you use a drag strip.

insano

05-21-2004, 09:37 AM

Funny how everyone rules out nitro in a speed competiton, until recently nitro has been looked upon as the "more powerful twin" of r/c. As fast and powerful as brushless motors have become, the increased power of a nitro and a very well designed 3 speed transmission could no doubt win this competition. The only thing left to figure out is how to get cool air to the engine, while keeping drag down to a minimum. For a speed test like this you obviously want to keep the weight in the middle of the car, but what about putting air intakes in the front of a car (just like real cars) and tubing it back to the engine? Then the body could be solid where it counts, and still have a lot of downforce with a decent spoiler in the back. Any thoughts?

Ryutech

05-21-2004, 10:20 AM

How about a supercharger on the nitros? Think is viable?

insano

05-21-2004, 10:56 AM

Wont the supercharger just lean out your engine? I can do that with my hsn...

cretin

05-21-2004, 01:32 PM

i am still perplexed how few people that are into rc know anything about forced induction. i'm reminded of the post i read about nitrous injection, where some wee todd said he wanted a purge kit to get the "old" nitrous out and "fresh" nitrous into the system. ryutech, good luck explaining how your blower works.

LongRat

05-21-2004, 02:08 PM

I think the limiting factor will be the track! The fastest cars will doubtless have a lot of speed in reserve. For this reason, acceleration from mid to high speed could be quite important. I have built a speed-run car, a couple of years ago, but it has never run in anger because I have nowhere to run it. I am not in the USA or I would come in a flash!

I think the winning car will be quite light, have a 16-26 cell (or equiv LiPo) brushless power system with a small-ish light motor drawing a fair bit of current. Ground effect aerodynamics too. In fact... just like my car. Hehe. http://www.geocities.com/dave_beeby

Ryutech

05-21-2004, 02:10 PM

It's not my supercharger, but I'll attempt a short explaination anyway...

I suppose you could say that running a supercharger (blower) is like running your engine lean. However a supercharger is like a forced induction system. Basically you are supercharging the airflow into the engine. So instead of just your airfilter sucking in air as it goes, you have your supercharger rammin air into the engine and creating more power. I'm not an engine expert by any means, but I think it works this way; More air to mix with the fuel vapor creates a bigger bang. Heh, something like that anyway.

crank throw wei

05-21-2004, 05:46 PM

For anyone who thinks that they can SC an RC nitro engine,please read this thread (http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124462&page=1&pp=20) before proceeding.BTW,the short answer is it doesn't work.

ic0nn

05-21-2004, 09:56 PM

tires and aerodynamics. i'm sure whoever heads into this will have drivetrain issues and most effective powerplant figured out. but the ones with the advantage will be those who can exploit newer tire compounds and have "better-than-the-rest" understanding of aerodynamics.

overall i think a fastest should be an electric powered vehicle, but i think building a nitro powered speed run car would be more interesting to look at.

Chris LaPanse

05-21-2004, 11:34 PM

The funniest part on the RB site is the guy who claimed 101 mph out of his Nitro RS4. He is claiming a 25% increase in RPM with just the addition of the blower. It became apparent that I would need much more horsepower to achieve triple digits. There's no way that even the most powerful .12 engine has the brute force to get enough revs to go over 100. Wolf Pack Radicals* of New York offers a big-block .21 conversion for the HPI cars. I'm thinking the extra power from a top-of-the-line competition big-block should get me to the century mark. Whipping out the calculator, I soon found that this wasn't going to be enough, either. With a tire diameter of 2.5 inches, the tallest optional gears offered by HPI for its 2-speed transmission, and an engine that should be able to pull about 35,000rpm under load, the car would still only get up to about 65mph. The problem wasn't horsepower; the engine would clearly run out of rpm before it ran out of power
This (as I'm sure many of you know) is a quote by RC Nitro. If with 35000 RPM, it goes 65, then obviously, when his car was going 77.4, the 24-7 was turning 41,677 rpm, and with the blower, it was turning 54,762 rpm at 101.7 mph. Never heard of a 24-7 turning that fast before. Can you say "shredded aluminum"? Obviously, if they need to spout this kind of BS to try to sell their product, it is not worth buying in the first place. Also, ic0nn, I think the aerodynamics will be a bigger issue than tires.Good luck to everyone who enters, and I can't wait to see some awesome vids. :D

cretin

05-22-2004, 09:13 AM

there is no way a blower can't be made to work, or nitrous or turbos for that matter. all you are doing is adding more air to the equation, and that lets you run more fuel. if there is a blower system out there that is garbage, it's cause the system is no good, not the forced induction principle. all is needed is someone to spend the time to design a real performance system.

also, if the only thing keeping nitro cars from blowing right by 100mph is gearing, then somebody needs to make some gears. jeez! i'll agree that whoever wrote the quoted article above is at least not very creative.

yep, i knew this topic would get ugly and stupid. i knew better than to get involved in it.

Fastcar

05-22-2004, 09:41 AM

There is a gonna be a tough battle for nitro vs electric.... I think electrics will go 120+not cliff or chris, nitro will be there.... 120+.... gonna come down to who can get there car to hook and go straight and quick... and slight move around on the track can cost you the record.

Chris LaPanse

05-22-2004, 07:11 PM

What I meant was that with the highest gear ratio that you can buy, the car would behave as I described above. Also, the Super Nitro made by RC Nitro had custom gears to hit 100 mph-the tallest ones that could fit. The normal Nitro RS4 would go slower even pulling that higher gear ratio due to it's smaller tires. Any way you look at it, it is BS. Also, if it made that big of a performance increase, then why doesn't anyone actually post some videos, or show for a RATIONAL REASON why it would work with a 2-stroke. From everything I know or that I've heard on forums, a blower is inneffective on a 2-stroke.

Interstate

05-22-2004, 07:54 PM

Toyotatogo

05-22-2004, 08:00 PM

20/37 is the tallest gearing HPI makes, and that's 2nd speed. That on a stock SNRS4 would go 86MPH according to RCCA's calculator and provided the engine could turn under load to 35000 revs. Pond also had the 32 tooth diffs, and I think(?) 19 tooth pullies, which would only add speed.

actually no 23/37 would be the highest

Pond also had the 32 tooth diffs, and I think(?) 19 tooth pullies

Actually he had a 25 tooth pulley to work along with the rear 32t diff.

Interstate

05-22-2004, 08:04 PM

Show me. Got a link?

Toyotatogo

05-22-2004, 08:14 PM

Show me. Got a link?

I'm not telling competition is right around the corner ... lol :D *lips sealed*

Toyotatogo

05-22-2004, 09:02 PM

Steve Pond's amazing 100mph car had a FDR of 2.67:1

But I was able to get an even better final drive ratio of 2.14 currently installed on my Super Ten now (actually its in pieces but will be ready I hope soon for the competition) *eeek*....lol

http://pic10.picturetrail.com/VOL320/1049490/3411198/54415311.jpg

I'm thinking 105mph maybe or more I dunno ....

Toyotatogo

05-22-2004, 09:15 PM

Steve Pond I have one question how big is this Race Track or the Speed Trap???

Interstate

05-22-2004, 09:55 PM

Wait, is the 23 bell made by HPI? PM me at least!

Toyotatogo

05-22-2004, 10:24 PM

RS4-3 Threaded Clutch Bell and Pinions (RED) 23T

cretin

05-22-2004, 11:22 PM

i would imagine that not a lot of people have tried to boost or spray nitro because it isn't needed. just get a bigger engine or a second engine.

or we could just use chris lapanse's theory that if it isn't written about on a forum then it must not be possible.

Interstate

05-22-2004, 11:36 PM

Don't worry toyo, I'm not making a top speed machine; I'm not entering the contest. It'd be nice to see another super be mentioned though.

promodvette

05-23-2004, 12:37 AM

if a nitro car wins it wont be with fuel you can get over the counter. In real dragracing we use a totally different more pure type of nitro that is about 900 bucks for a 55 gallon drum or you can buy it in single gallons for 45 bucks....so yeah ya get screwed either way... spending 900 for a lot more than you could use or spending 45 for nothing. but the problem is you got to have a special licence to buy it because nitromethane in its pure state is not explosive but mixed with the right stuff...kaboom...see oklahoma city bombing few years ago...yeah nitro was ingrediant...for this speed test the cars will probably be run under 1 minute so 85% nitro, 5% vp racing oil, and 10% alcohol would be the ticket. Also a custom made motor i think would have to be done to realistically run the numbers. Short stroke big bore kinda thing...huge rpms and a supercharger for a nitro burning 2stroke engine will work it makes the cylinder pressure higher thus forcing the piston down faster for more rpms..yes it does work..think hard about it and you will realize it. I think elec. will win the competition because of the availability of most items needed to compete.

Chris LaPanse

05-23-2004, 11:26 AM

If there were no forums saying ANYTHING about the blower, then I would agree with you. However, when there is not a single forum that says it helps, and there is a HUGE forum where people discuss every possible reason why it won't work, then I am more inclined to believe that it won't work.

promodvette

05-23-2004, 02:14 PM

people act like these motors dont work like a typical 4 stroke but do to some extent. People think the supercharger will not work because the air would just blow out the exhaust real quick. That is false. In that case when the intake it open (when the supercharged air enters along with fuel) the exhaust would be open. The piston goes up with the fuel and supercharged air hits and ignites the fuel with more cylinder pressure than without a supercharger then goes down at a higher rate of speed than would be without supercharger and releases all the exhaust. Being higher cylinder pressure causes it to create more rpms and more punch or as some like to call it horsepower.

Fast T3

05-24-2004, 11:06 AM

Mua

05-24-2004, 02:56 PM

Wait.... what?

That post should be used as an example to keep kids in school. :mad:

rpmmaxxed

05-24-2004, 09:00 PM

lol. Took me 5 times after reading it to understand it.

promodvette

05-24-2004, 10:07 PM

i bet a rail dragster will win with a speed of 125mph and it will run a brushed motor and and lith-ply and look at the nitro electric thing i kick GT with Novas in them and on 6 cells and 10x6 motor i had once like T3's kick GT's no matter what you say cause i have done it 132 i got 10 feet on a Gt with my T3 you are NOT going to win with nitro but it will get you a top 10 spot

i think this is what he means....

He bets a rail dragster will win with a speed of 125mph. It will run with a brushed motor and lithium power. He beats RC10GT's with Nova-Rossi's with his RC10T3 with a 10x6 motor on 6 cells. A RC10T3 beats a RC10GT no matter what you say because he has done it 132ft ( 1/10th scale 1/4 mile) and was ahead by 10ft on a RC10GT with his RC10T3. He thinks nitro will not win the competition but will be in the top 10.

Hope that helps out the smarter people. haha Ya gotta be able to understand the tards somewhat. I have to deal with them every day in my machine shop. So i understood this guy well.

DualBL

05-25-2004, 01:40 AM

rofl, thnx a bunch promodvette
-Nick

DaFF

05-25-2004, 01:45 AM

Ha Ha Ha ! that was hilarious !

DFF

cretin

05-25-2004, 09:56 AM

do you know any slow or special people?

Soupisgoodfood

05-26-2004, 01:11 AM

I think Fast T3 is simply a true member of the TXT Generation; a generation with no bounds, no fear, and no knowledge of punctuation. God bless them all, for the rest of us won't, because we can't understand what they're saying.

;)

ElectricThunder

05-26-2004, 07:28 PM

LMFAO!!!

See, I wouldn't think the supercharger on a lil nitro engine would do much. It'd be too parasitic and wouldn't do much. I've seen superchargers and read bout them on what I believe was a SNRS4. The blower was about the size of a marble, and I read on some forum that the guy really wasn't getting any noticeable speed. I'm not saying it won't work, I'm saying it may not give you the performance increase you want.

crank throw wei

05-26-2004, 10:37 PM

I'm not saying it won't work, I'm saying it may not give you the performance increase you want.
Well I'm saying it.They won't work unless one were to dramatically rework the engine.

piecemealBHC

05-27-2004, 01:21 AM

The only thing left to figure out is how to get cool air to the engine, while keeping drag down to a minimum.

Anyone working on/thought about a liquid cooled engine?

DaLurker

05-27-2004, 11:53 AM

I'm wondering, since F1 cars are the most aerodynamic cars we have to date. Why not model a R/C car after an F1 chassis?

sosidge

05-27-2004, 12:01 PM

Aerodynamic? Not particularly.

Bear in mind that F1 cars are built to create the maximum downforce with the least drag. It's a balancing act (different tracks need different aero packages).

Speed run cars don't need the downforce, so you would build it with a very different body style.

Compare the fastest car on the planet - the Thrust SSC...

http://www.aip.de/~mjm/Images/thrustssc.jpg

With the winner of the the Monaco Grand Prix - Jarno Trulli's Renault...

http://www.renaultf1.com/en/binaries/600_RenLaunch_33_tcm3-17915.jpg

Strike 4

05-27-2004, 08:20 PM

My take on this is the winner will be a XRay M18 with Mamba Comp-X on 12 NiHM cells. Offcourse it would have to have some mods such as a super high downforce body, CF chassis, and foam tires JMO...

R3VoLuTiOn

05-27-2004, 08:51 PM

i would like to see that m18, but i dont think it would have enough weight to keep it down or itll just lose control fast.

Chris LaPanse

05-28-2004, 12:00 AM

Why a super high df body? You only need enough to stay on the ground; any more just adds drag.

MegaMe

05-28-2004, 12:28 AM

i dont reckon an xray would make more that 80 or 90mph even with say a 4 cell lipoly with the mamba 8000kv..

oh and btw anything that has open wheels ie an f1 car has lots of drag... go for enclosed wheels IMO.

Gyro Gearloose

05-28-2004, 02:23 AM

I should've never opened this section again! LOL! A super ten????? ROFL! That'll be the day!

I'll say again as I said earlier, you will NOT see any nitrous(at least not injected into an engine, that cooling idea has possibilties, maybe) or forced air injection, not unless someones using Conley V8's or other spark ignition four cycle engines(I doubt it, but you never know).

That discussion's been brought up a thousand times and shot down a thousand times, I have never in 25 years of RC nitro running seen any of that tripe work once, never. Only because it can't work in these types of engines.

REVOman

05-31-2004, 01:23 AM

The Supercharge Nito engine aspekt, well those that are saying "it WONT work" are the same type of people that said the first Supercharged raceing engine on full skale wouldnt work either, and where are we now, Superchargers, Turbos, and other Forced Induktion items are all over the place for cars. All it takes is the right balance of inginuity and design, it will work. On any engine made, the data is the same, Air+Fuel+ignition=force, increased air+ increased fuel+iginition=more firce, force konverts into pressure on piston, piston moves down, increased force moves piston faster. The problem faced with it, IS the inkreased pressure in the chamber, if the pressure gets too high, then you kan bet on trashin your glowplugs kontinuesly. It just takes a good balance. Anything that uses Air + Fuel to make power KAN be Supercharged.

not unless someones using Conley V8's or other spark ignition four cycle engines

if it requires a SPARK IGNITION, then how do you explaine Supercharged Diesle's???

racerrandy

05-31-2004, 09:26 AM

I think the reason he is saying with spark ignition is that on a v8 it uses a distibutor to time the firing of the fuel so that you don't have pre-ignition. You will burn a motor up fast with too much timing. When using nitrous they retart the timing to keep from doing this. On a deisel you don't have a spark plug so you inject the fuel at the right time to acheive the same thing because a deisel fires by compression. You don't have these options on a glow plug 2 stroke engine.

Interstate

05-31-2004, 12:18 PM

revoman, forced induction will not work in our engines.

1st: Do a search in the general and nitro forums, there is a thread about 10 pages long with about 30 people giving reasons why it won't work. And these people are people that have college degrees in fields related to forced induction.

2nd: Please use some C's when required instead of k's.

duanewho

05-31-2004, 10:09 PM

I wonder if anyone is cooking up something really out there, like using a Conley V-8 or a Wren gas turboprop. The Wren would be interesting, they crank out about 8hp and with the right gearing in the output gearbox probably could be made to work.
As for the aerodyamics, I would think a body shape something like the Olds Aerotech from the late 80's would be the thing. With the speeds everyone is looking at, molding something like this out of lightweight fiberglass may be the best option to reduce flex. And maybe a full undertray, maybe with venturi tunnels to generate downforce.

crank throw wei

06-01-2004, 12:58 AM

Gyro gearloose and interstate:Voices of reason.The rest who feel forced induction on a 2 cycle nitro motor is a reasonable approach really need to do your homework.

duanewho:OK,this is kinda weird:My real name is Duane,and I'm an Olds finatic! I overlooked the Areotech as a body configuration.Thanks for the refresher. ;) :D

KMac

06-01-2004, 07:35 AM

BTW, the Olds Aerotech was essentially a CART Champ Car with the full body shell on it. (I believe someone mentioned in one of these threads about using an open wheel car for a baseline.) AND, that's none other than AJ Foyt behind the wheel during the record run.

Mike Keeney

06-01-2004, 10:27 PM

I can almost bet my pay check that electric will win both hands down ! For one thing, it is way easier to break a speed record with an electric than a nitro.

There is multiple reason for this, but the most obvious are:

1- Brushless can get easely twice the rpm any nitro could dream off and can push high torque from 0 to top rpm

Look-out for 65 000 rpm under load electric beast, while nitro would have a hard time getting over 35 000 rpm under load !
RPM isn't important at all. In fact, it's probably a detriment. It takes time to get up to max rpm.

Here's an interesting fact. In real life, a top fuel dragster will trip the lights in just under 4 seconds @ 350 mph. They generally top out at 10,000 rpm. If the car traps in 3.8 seconds @ 350 mph, how many revolutions did the motor actualy turn for the run? if you guessed 633 you would be right.

Rpm is what allow your car you to have a high speed, low down torque are the "balls" necessary to get to that speed in a reasonnable time and distance.
I don't quite agree with you on this either. The ability to create high rpm's doesn't directly translate to speed. In this circumstance, (wheel driven forward movement), what's important is the speed the vehicle is going when it goes through the trap that counts. A 12" diameter tire rotating at 5000 rpm will propel its vehicle much faster than a 1" diameter tire spinning at 50,000 rpm. 178.20 / 148.20 to be exact. It all comes down to power (torque), and the ability to convert it into forward motion.

Nitro, would have to compensate using multiple speed system (read more complicated and more $$$ to have a reliable, very high power 3 or more speed system), and very expensive custom gear to get to an extremly high top speed.!
You're right about that. Any car entered into this event will almost certainly be a hybrid of some sort. We're making a blown mini V8. This type of power plant has a very low rmp limit. Probably no more that 8 or 10,000 rpm's max. But, this type of motor has a lot of wiggle room if it needs to be tweaked one way or the other. We can change so many components and get a completely different power curve. Electric cars don't have quite as many tweaking options.

2- The new battery technology (read Lithium Polymer) would be a very high advantage over the NimH / Nicad for breaking speed record
It all comes down to the power to weight ratio for all of us. You can't escape the law. E=MC².

As far as choosing which motor will come out on top, I couldn't tell ya. I KNOW we will bring a highly competitive car. I also KNOW that everyone else will bring the same. The fun is in finding out.

Mike

Interstate

06-01-2004, 10:39 PM

Wait, everything made sense until you brought relativity into this. What does the speed of light have to do with this?

Mike Keeney

06-01-2004, 11:00 PM

Wait, everything made sense until you brought relativity into this. What does the speed of light have to do with this?

Energy equals mass times velocity squared.

Consider this, if you and a friend are traveling in a pickup truck across Texas, and you're drinking quarts of beer and your buddy is drinking 12oz cans of beer, by the time you reach the Louisiana border, which one of you is drunker? Answer, You are. The reason? About halfway through the state you stopped and beat the crap out of your buddy for being such a wus for drinking little baby cans of beer. The truth is, you drove off and left him in the middle of nowhere because you drank all your beer and had to take his.

Mike :D

Interstate

06-01-2004, 11:23 PM

Wrong wrong wrong wrong WRONG!

E=MC^2 is not energy equals mass times velocity squared.

It's energy (E) equals Mass (M) times the universal constant (C) {should be a cursive k if you ask me** squared. What is the universal constant you ask? IT'S THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Einstein's theory stated that a relatively large amount of energy could be produced if a mass were accellerated to the speed of light squared. Of course there have been many physicits hypothesizeing that a speed greater than the speed of light (186,000 miles per second) is impossible. However, they are only hypotheses and may never be proven only because the amount of energy required to accellerate a mass to the speed of light squared (34,596,000,000 miles per second) would be collossally enormous and thus defeating the point of E=MC^2.

Masses have been accellerated to near light speed; but they were only subatomic particles like electrons and weren't actually going the full 186,000 miles per second. They were accelerated using thousands of electromagnets, and as we all know, electricity bills are never cheap.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic.

BTW, I don't drink beer, and wouldn't go to texas anyway...

crank throw wei

06-01-2004, 11:32 PM

^^ Wow! Suddenly,Einstein's theory of relativity all makes sense! :D

Mike Keeney

06-02-2004, 02:55 AM

Well now you're just splitting atoms. :)

I don't drink beer either, but I have been to Texas. Things just haven't been the same for me since. :eek:

Cheers,
Mike

Interstate

06-02-2004, 01:09 PM

Yes I am talking about splitting atoms, what's your point. My point is that the theory of relativity has nothing to do with the top speed of RC cars.

DaFF

06-02-2004, 01:35 PM

Hi Mike,

I watched your V8 video and it is really a awesome piece of jewelry... keep up the good job and I hope to see one of your engine crossing the finish line with that special V8 grunt I've never heard before !

Anyway, back to the quotes you did on my previous post, let me add something to it:

Yes, I am sure you'll find a way to a very fast nitro car with one of your V8 engine.

1- Nevertheless, I still think the electric has some big advantages compare to a nitro, like I don't have any idea of what is the weight of your engine, but you'll have to incorporate a kind of a clutch and gearbox to it.

Gearbox will only slow you down, as it add mass, complexity and efficiency that will always be under 1 meaning you will lose some power.

Now look at a high end brushless electric: from 0 to 65 000 rpm, there is enough low down torque and top rpm to get away with a direct drive.

2- As for the tire diameter, you reasonning is correct in 1:1 scale car, but in our scale racing car, there is a limit to the diameter of the tire (given an OAL limit, whatever it could be)

That's the reason why I still maintain that a high end rpm engine will still do better because there would be no need for an extremly low tranny ratio.

Anyway, even so in real 1:1 scale nitro burner are the top performer, in model boat, plane or car it is a different world.

Take the speed boat for example, the world record was done with an electric motor.

I guess a 1:1 electric dragster is out of question, but who knows, it might be feasible one day.

I think we can debate it to death, only the speed trap will give us straight facts.

Best regards

DFF

Mike Keeney

06-02-2004, 06:39 PM

That's the reason why I still maintain that a high end rpm engine will still do better because there would be no need for an extremly low tranny ratio.
It all boils down to the power to weight ratio. That's what's so exciting about this competition. There are so many possibilities, so many variables that could affect the outcome. In the end, there can be only one! It's all bluster before the race, and only one of us will have the bragging rights. :)

I guess a 1:1 electric dragster is out of question, but who knows, it might be feasible one day.
It's not out of the question, it's just impractical. Consider the modern locomotive. We all know these have huge diesel motors in them. What most people don't know is that the diesel engines are there to provide power to the electric motors that actually drive the train. Using the same setup in a car would work, but there isn't a drive train that is light enough to handle the load. So now you've got to add gearing and a frame that's stout enough to handle the torque, etc, etc, etc. Before you know it, your electric dragster looks like a locomotive, and weighs about the same. Just considering the power to weight alone, the car would have a very tough time getting up to a respectable speed.

Overcoming the variables is the challenge for this trophy. Horsepower is only one of the major factors that will have to be considered. I was once the crew chief on a stock car and I can tell you from experience that there were no guarantees that we would win just by showing up. We beat cars with allot more horsepower than us, and we also had our fanny kicked by cars with less HP than us. Every time we put the car out on the track there were dozens of variables that could cause us to win or lose the race. Plus you have to factor in a bunch of luck. Look at the Indy 500 winner last weekend. The guy drove brilliantly throughout the race, but there were a couple of cars that could have gotten in front of him in the end. Then the rain came and gave him the win.

Cheers,
Mike

crank throw wei

06-02-2004, 07:38 PM

I guess a 1:1 electric dragster is out of question, but who knows, it might be feasible one day.

In my trips to the drag strip,I have seen the rules that say "no electric vehicles" without explaination.

duanewho

06-02-2004, 08:52 PM

The reason for no electric vehicles at the strip is likely safety. For one, no has written any regs for electric dragsters, plus the cars could pose a hazard to safety workers in terms of the batterys leaking/exploding and the possibility of electrocution since 1:1 cars run on very high voltages. But I have seen some special event electric drag races.

Mike Keeney

06-02-2004, 09:10 PM

In my trips to the drag strip,I have seen the rules that say "no electric vehicles" without explaination.
Consider this, If a locomotive were traveling at 100 mph and the brakes fail (which has happened), what could stop it? Certainly not the sand trap at the end of the drag strips. I'll qualify that, sand would probably be the safest way to stop it, but it would have to be long & deep.

Mike :)

Interstate

06-02-2004, 10:01 PM

Mike, what does that have to do with anything?

racerrandy

06-02-2004, 10:11 PM

Hey guys, the land speed record for a electric vehicles at boneville is 257 mph. It is 30 feet long, has a 500hp motor and has 12,000 nicad batteries! Here is the link. http://www.speedace.info/

EddieO

06-02-2004, 11:31 PM

Heh, no lithiums! Wonder if it was brushless....

Later EddieO

Mike Keeney

06-03-2004, 12:53 AM

Mike, what does that have to do with anything?
I was just adding to the conversation.

Is this an invitation only club? Or did I say something to piss you off? I guess the rules are that you can only make a joke if every part of it is factually correct, and my posts must be strictly on topic. That last part is sort of confusing since there seems to be an abundance of off topic posts around here. Why me?

Regards,
Mike

racerrandy

06-05-2004, 11:07 AM

I truly believe that many combo's will have a shot. Nitro, bl and li-po's and brushed with nihm. It will the the guy or team that can bring it together.

burntslapup

06-05-2004, 02:22 PM

I'm big into the rc drags and i've seen both cars run in the low 1.7 seconds at 75-85 mph. although we only run 135 ft. so top speed is not known. The world record is 1.68 seconds, held by Bod Bowling from the IEDA. the Nitro cars even though have ran in the 1.7 second range, have not done so as much as a elec cars have.

i've read some post from ppl talking about running 40 cells and two motors??? that will not work, cause the power to weight with the 40 cells is to much, once you pass the 15 cells (standerd) and 20 cell (shorty cell) you've done no more then just over weighted your car.

as for the 2 motors, NOPE your car will only be as fast as your slowest motor, due to the fact that the slowest motor will slow down the faster one.

NE ways the Elec cars are faster then nitro's from what i've seen

racerrandy

06-05-2004, 03:54 PM

I don't agree that the slowest motor will slow the other one down. If the other motor blows up ya. But the stronger motor will allow the other motor to have a lighter load, so it will spool up and not drag the other down. I don't have any way to prove this, but it makes sense to me.

DaFF

06-05-2004, 05:17 PM

Yes, agree, two motor is a good setup and if both motor are the same type and running on the same batt, I don't see how one of them could slow the other one down.

Furthermore, burntslapup reasonning about 40 cells and weight is perfectly right with Nicad or Nimh ( 1.2 volt par cell ) technology, but once you try the lipo cell ( 3.7 volt per cell ) , it makes perfect sens to go higher voltage, for less amp draw and more efficency.

Talking about Lipo, I am sure we will see them in model dragster soon because with the new breed of high discharge Lipo cell ( more than 10C continuous, 15 C to 20 C max), I am sure the weight to power ratio will get better big time...

DFF

Mike Keeney

06-05-2004, 07:18 PM

Two types of motors in one car is an interesting concept. But wouldn't the lower power motor just become dead weight at some point? You could use a one way roller clutch which would remove the slow motor from the drive train, but at some point, that motor would then become nothing more than dead weight. I think Burntslapup is right, there comes a point of diminishing returns. Power to weight ratio has to be a primary design consideration. More power with less weight is the name of the game. But there is no way to have power without having weight. If you have lots of power and no weight you won't get traction. If you have lots of power, lots of traction, and no weight, you will have no control.

A couple of years ago a racing friend of mine got the brilliand idea to put a 1500 hp blown chevy big block under an old Morris Minor body. He thought it would be really cool because nobody else is doing it. He was even going to shorten the rear end and use his drag slicks. The funny part was how easily he dismissed the fact that the reason no one else was doing it was because it can't be done. I told him he won't need his NHRA license, he's going to need a pilot's license, cause this thing would be flying more than it would be on the ground. He finally gave up after he got to drive an altered.

I was one of the lucky few that got to see the very first 300 mph run ever recorded at a ¼ mile dragstrip. Some nut thought it would be fun to strap 4 tires and a steering wheel on a nitrogen tank. On the green light he opened the dump valve and he was gone. He ran out of gas (literally) about a third of the way down the track. He coasted through the trap at 300+. The noise was unbelievable. Funny thing though, we never saw him again. He didn't get hurt or anything like that, but I suspect he got the s*** scared out of him.

A few years ago a friend and I were going to take a crack at the real land speed record. We were going to use a variant of the gas bottle car at the dragstrip. The idea was to have a push cart get us up to near top speed with progressive staged releases of large nitrogen cylinders, and then dump the cart and fire off the final set of tanks in the car for the measured mile. I figured that if the guy can top 300 on a dragstrip, we should be able to get 750+ in 6 miles.

The person that'll win this contest is the one who did the most testing, and has unbelievable luck. There is no sure fire formula that would produce a consistant winner. There's an infinate amount of known and unknown variables we will all have to contend with.

Just to be safe though, I'm gonna put a chute on my car. :)

Mike

Mua

06-05-2004, 07:42 PM

i've read some post from ppl talking about running 40 cells and two motors??? that will not work, cause the power to weight with the 40 cells is to much, once you pass the 15 cells (standerd) and 20 cell (shorty cell) you've done no more then just over weighted your car.

That may be the case in a standing start acceleration test for a drag car but this is a rolling start. If what you say is true then the world record car linked in racerrandy's post above would have done better on only 20 cells. The mass of the car has minimal effect on outright top speed that can be attained as it only contributes to rolling resistance. This is negligible with respect to drag resistance at the speeds expected here. As a matter of fact you could build the car to have less rolling resistance the faster it goes by designing the aerodynamics to provide lift at speed. This would have a limit though as you still need to maintain some downforce for traction.

To be honest, I don't think lack of power or speed is gonna be a problem in this competition. Rather it will be who can control their car on the approach and exit corners before and after the straight, not to mention keeping tires from flying apart.

Interstate

06-05-2004, 08:17 PM

I'd have to disagree with burntslapup's last comment. Electric cars have all their torque instantly, while nitros have to spool up. This is not to say that nitros wouls have a slower top speed, it could mean the opposite. I've supported this argument in earlier posts, and just don't feel like writing it all again.

Mike Keeney

06-06-2004, 01:38 AM

Electric cars have all their torque instantly, while nitros have to spool up.
It has been my experience that both types of motor can have a variety of performance curves. Traditionally, any motor that has a steep initial torque configuration usually won't perform well at high rpm. Conversely, the 20 hp/10,000 rpm motor on top of our CNC mill is considerably smaller than the 5 hp/4000 motor on our old mill. However, the 20 hp motor has no low end torque, and the 5 hp motor could lift a truck at 300 rpm. Both of these motors have a controller that has adjustments for ramp up speed, slow down speed, emergency stop, blah, blah, blah. I would be skeptical that a 50,000 rpm motor could reach that rpm in one revolution (I think that's a given). But I also don't think a high rpm motor will develop full power until it gets a chance to get the r's up. All motors, AC, DC, or IC, have a power curve that for all intents and purposes, is shaped somewhat like a bell.

For IC engines there is likely a larger range of options which affect the power curve. Bore, stroke, compression, cam geometry, fuel, timing, gearing, clutch, tires, aerodynamics, yada, yada, yada.

All this means is that there is no way to be certain who or what will lay down the highest speed. I think the next year will see a large jump in technology for both kinds of cars. The only thing I think is a certainly is that the current Guiness record will fall right away. Beyond that, I think there will be plenty of cars topping 150 mph. I hope my car is the ultimate winner, but I sure wouldn't bet the farm on it. This event is going to be tough, and clearly full of surprises. Whoever ends up winning will certainly have my applause, as will everyone who enters a car. This event is going to be a ton of fun and I'm rooting for everyone. :)

Mike

modellor

06-07-2004, 06:51 AM

ok. I have a couple of questions. Firstly, is the track a drag strip straight or is it an oval? And, if its an oval how many laps do you get per each run to set your fastest speed?

modellor

06-07-2004, 06:54 AM

I have read through this and saw many posts saying that a nitro power machine doesnt stand a chance. I beg to differ. If the Power to Weight ratio is perfect and the gearing and FDR and tire diameter are right any decent .12 sized engine is more than capable of producing speeds in excess of 130mph. The key problem is getting to the top speed in the confined space or run distance allowed.

In saying that I am more than confident a nitro powered car will take the manufacturers title ;)

KMac

06-07-2004, 08:02 AM

modellor

06-07-2004, 08:23 AM

That sounds good on paper, but the reality is a single .12 could never overcome the aerodynamic drag to achieve those speeds.

True. I was only giving that as an example.

nitro.monster

06-22-2004, 03:05 PM

can you give me a link to this calculator?

StevePond

06-22-2004, 03:09 PM

http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/cars/calculator.asp

nitro.monster

06-22-2004, 03:24 PM

thank you stevepond

GA Maxx

07-07-2004, 05:38 AM

I think ait will be an 8th scale Electric with a brushless and high cell count.

Nitro's are fast out of the box, but when modifying for speed only, its time to let the electrics take over.

awnelson

07-08-2004, 01:12 PM

A Lesson in Acceleration:

* One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more
horsepower than the first 4 rows at the Indy. 500.

* Under full throttle, a Top Fuel dragster engine consumes 1 gallon
of nitromethane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at
the same rate with 25% less energy being produced.
[duh - jet fuel has less energy than nitromethane!]

* A stock Dodge 426 Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to
drive the dragster's supercharger.

* With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on
overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form
before ignition. Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full
throttle.

* At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitromethane the
flame front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.

* Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above
the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from
atmospheric water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.

* Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output
of an arc welder in each cylinder.

* Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After 1/2
way, the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of
exhaust valves at 1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by
cutting the fuel flow.

* If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds
up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force
to blow the cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block
in half.

* In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate
at an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before
half-track, the launch acceleration approaches 8G's.

* Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed
reading this sentence.

* Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to
light!

* Including the burnout the engine must only survive 900 revolutions
under load.

* The red-line is actually quite high at 9500 rpm.

* The Bottom Line; Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew
worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an
estimated $1,000.00 per second. The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed
time record is 4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony
Schumacher). The top speed record is 333.00 mph (533 km/h) as
measured over the last 66' of the run, (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).

Putting all of this into perspective:

You are riding the average $250,000 Honda MotoGP bike. Over a mile up
the road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged and ready to launch down a
quarter mile strip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying
start. You run the RC211V hard up through the gears and blast across
the starting line and past the dragster at an honest 200 mph (293
ft/sec). The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that moment. The
dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your wrist cranked
hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your
eardrums and within 3 seconds the dragster catches and passes you. He
beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed
him.

Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you
200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when
he passed you within a mere 1320 foot long race course.

That, folks, is acceleration!

Now convert that to R/C and show me the winner.

BTW, never heard of a winning full size electric dragster; seems like nitro has a head start.

Mike Keeney

07-08-2004, 01:31 PM

Thanks AW, those are some very interesting stats. Where did you get them?

Mike

awnelson

07-08-2004, 01:48 PM

e-mail, during a hard day at work of course!

btw, the stats are old; the top speed and ET have been exceeded.

Rick Hohwart

07-12-2004, 04:27 PM

winner = electric at 85 mph

StevePond

07-12-2004, 05:46 PM

Like Rick, I think electric may have an edge, but I think the winning speed will be around 120ish. If the car needs to get back around the track, you're not going to be able to carry much more speed than that without the car exploding into the outside wall. It'll be interesting. ;)

ElectricThunder

07-12-2004, 06:34 PM

I"m with Mr.Pond on this one. However, I bet that the electrics can get higher than 120:p. I think they can push 130 AT LEAST, what with all this new technology and brushless and lipo stuff.

Chris LaPanse

07-14-2004, 10:06 PM

Although that guy with the turbine powered GT1 (sorry, I can't remember your name) has a good chance. That could probably hit 200+ with enough room, and possibly 140+ on this track.

studysession

07-20-2004, 12:49 PM

Electric - hands down. JMO

CaseyRCDDR

07-21-2004, 11:50 AM

electric, no contest. I'm sorry nitro fans, but deny it all you want, electric WILL win. I'll put my RC equipment to yours on it. (long as its good equipment ^^)

JamminJay

07-21-2004, 01:31 PM

electric, no contest. I'm sorry nitro fans, but deny it all you want, electric WILL win. I'll put my RC equipment to yours on it. (long as its good equipment ^^)

He says he'll put his equipment on the line.... but thats a lie.... he never came thru on our deal.. he stills owes me money from months ago.. and not to mention don't be fooled by his " I work at hobbytownUSA " scheme... He don't work there anymore. I talked to his manager and he owes the store a couple hundred dollars as well......Low and behold Casey, I am onto your trail even though your manager say your nowhere to be found. I know people in Indianapolis. and I might just make a trip to your house since you payed me by paypal. I have documents and can bring the police with me...- good day.

mgs9

07-21-2004, 03:13 PM

I feel it more like 6 of one kind half dozen the other. Its all in the design Nitro will probly have the better acceleration because of the power, but eletric will probly have the highest peek speed if it can get to it in the distance it has to run. But i think we will be seeing electric taking the win this year.

EddieWeeks

07-21-2004, 06:44 PM

Turbine car is going to win.... lots more HP and no gearing.. just
keeps going faster and faster.. JMO

Eddie Weeks
http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/weeks1/car.html

tnxfan

07-21-2004, 07:07 PM

i thought that jets and turbins arn't allowed

mgs9

07-21-2004, 09:34 PM

They are allowed, but the thrust has to be used to power wheels.

Mike Keeney

07-22-2004, 12:38 AM

Turbines are allowed, but the vehicle must be wheel driven.

As to the great debate between gas or electric, I'm pretty confident the winner won't be electric. Given the constraints of the track, I think it's going to be more of a drag race than anything else. That's why I'm designing a supercharged, nitro burning 8 cylinder engine, (about 1000 cc's), and putting it in a 40" funnycar chassis on 8 to 10 inch diameter slicks.

But if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet on this race. I know what I'll bring, and I'm equally sure other people will be just as inventive. The winner won't be known until the last car takes the checkered flag.

Cheers,
Mike

crank throw wei

07-22-2004, 01:29 AM

I'm pretty confident the winner won't be electric. Given the constraints of the track, I think it's going to be more of a drag race than anything else.
Spot on Mike. I think the track will "decide" what it wants. There will be exotic hardware from all camps,and if this was a strict drag race,it might be more predictable.But it's not,it's a circle track,and I still feel that tires and track conditions will be as important or more than what type of system is used to propel the vehicle.

EddieWeeks

07-22-2004, 11:00 AM

studysession

07-22-2004, 01:22 PM

Nice pics - I love choppers.

Mike Keeney

07-22-2004, 01:42 PM

I'm building something similar to this, Blown V8 (http://www.nvone.com/BAEM/Blown%20V8.MPG).

The engine on this video is running on gasoline and has only 1" bore & stroke. The engine I'm designing will have about 1½" bore & stroke. It's possible the stroke will be a little bit longer, but I don't know for sure yet.
The engine in the video is about 12-13 inches long. Mine will be around 18". I suspect there won't be a need for a tranny because there isn't a standing start. We think we can run on a 1:1 ratio to the rear end, although there is plenty of lattitude for a taller gear set. Only testing will tell. We're working with the folks at Horstman Clutches and will use one of their multi-plate centrifugal clutches that won't kick in until around 4000 rpm. I also don't yet know how the fuel will be delivered. I'm looking for a fuel injection system, but may have to go with conventional carbs.

One thing for sure, this car will be the loudest of all the entrants, and it will shoot flames the farthest.

Cheers,
Mike

racerrandy

07-22-2004, 06:30 PM

Hum??????? I suspect it might give the best crowd pleazing dismount also! LOL

Just kidding Mike, can't wait to see the beast.

Later,Randy

Mike Keeney

07-22-2004, 06:30 PM

Mike... Are you serious.. ?.. I just designed and built a 11 foot long chopper
(motorcycle) with a 600 cc engine and there is no way that thing will fit into
40 " car... and if it did it would be very top heavy..

(Chopper pics)
http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/weeks1/chopper.html

Eddie Weeks
600 cc's in an 11 foot chopper? Isn't there a law against that? Should have at least a thousand, minimum. You better go back and install the other half of the motor, and get it pointed in the right direction. :D

Nice frame. Any interest in making a 40" funny car frame for a certain car running in a certain race? ;)

Mike

EddieWeeks

07-22-2004, 08:54 PM

No problem... just takes.. $$$$

crank throw wei

07-22-2004, 10:13 PM

Any interest in making a 40" funny car frame for a certain car running in a certain race? ;)

Mike
Sure! PM me. Also,I may have an F.I. system that will work,depending on the final displacement.

EddieWeeks

07-23-2004, 01:55 AM

600 cc's in an 11 foot chopper? Isn't there a law against that? Should have at least a thousand, minimum. You better go back and install the other half of the motor, and get it pointed in the right direction. :D

Mike

I appricate your concerns for the rice burnner
low displayment engine but I can assure you
ITS FAST...

The whole bike weighs in at ~360 lbs and has a 110 HP
fuel injected engine that redlines at 14k.

The whole reason for the small engine was cost
quite, no vibration and no carbs. I perched a
wrecked bike, Honda CBR 600 F4i for like $1000
I can't get a chopper transmission for that..

Anyway.. I can't wait to see your V8 run.. that will
be sick.. I machine stuff all the time but I
can't imagine building that.

ps.. Turbine read higher on sound meters but don't
hurt your ears as much as bangers.. hahah

Eddie Weeks

Mike Keeney

07-23-2004, 03:19 AM

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this contest, even if my car doesn't take the trophy for being the loudest. :D :D :D

Your bike looks really cool. And, of course, I was just funn'in ya about the motor.

Cheers,
Mike

EddieWeeks

07-23-2004, 10:45 AM

Mike Keeney

07-23-2004, 01:11 PM

Thanks for the great comments about the bike... but think
a scratch built V8 is far cooler.. If you send me pics of the design
and the lathe work I can through a web site together so everyone can
see this awsome thing being built..

Eddie
weeks1@bellsouth.net
Thanks Eddie. A website is already in the works. (It helps when you own the web hosting company. :) )

But you have given me an interesting idea. How about a website for everyone building a car for this contest? I'd be happy to do something like that if someone would volunteer to help out with keeping it up to date.

As far as my new motor is concerned, to say this is a huge undertaking is the understatement of the century. I'll use as much existing technology as possible, such as copying the combustion chamber geometry of a motorcycle and the cam specs, etc. But I not only have to design the block, heads, manifold, blower, crankshaft, and everything else, I also have to design and machine the molds. Fortunately, I have a CNC machine shop, and a friend who owns a foundry. I guess the downside is, the guy at the foundry thinks I'm nuts. :rolleyes:

Cheers,
Mike

RS4ss

07-24-2004, 11:39 PM

a group at my school heard of the contest and we have been working together to build three cars for the competition. after about two days of constant talk, we decided on the car platforms, nitro, electric turbine, and compressed n2o. the nitro consists of two .70 thundertiger motors, a super rs4 chassis, and 2 speed tranny. the electric turbine will consist of a super rs4 chassis, one 12v electronic supercharging system from SLE of Greenville SC that turns out 18psi, pushed through a volvo turbine to the wheels. the compressed n2o car consists of a super rs4 chassis, two 3lb nitrous paintball tanks, fed through high pressure nossles into a single volvo turbine. the n2o car will produce about 500psi of pressure through the bottles. since i am the "captain" of our team that is of now nameless, my friends have asked me to relay their predictions of speed(and dont forget, we are students and know our mathematics). the predictions are as follows,
_nitro car-1:2 ratio to the rear. 120mph+ low center of gravity
_electric turbine car- 115mph+ depending on gearing
_n2o car-high velocity 130mph+ dont laugh, it just might win

Mike Keeney

07-25-2004, 02:37 AM

I think it's great for you and your school friends to get involved with this. There will be so much for everyone to learn, even for an old fart like me. I'm sure it will be loads of fun as well.

One thing though, thrust powered cars aren't allowed unless the thrust is used to drive the wheels. There's not a lot of rules, but being wheel driven is one of them. :( Sorry.

Mike

crank throw wei

07-25-2004, 01:55 PM

__n2o car-high velocity 130mph+ dont laugh, it just might win
It's powered with nitrous,and he says not to laugh! :D :D ;)

1)Sorry RS4,I got caught in the exhaust plume.
2)As he reaches the the 130 mark,the crowd goes.....well...there laughing hystarically! And it appears that a team of dentists are moving in!
3)The team has unwittingly left a trail of this supercharging agent about the track,and that has put them at the back of the pack,as the competitors are achieving incredible speeds!

:D :cool:

Mike Keeney

07-25-2004, 03:04 PM

I think he meant nitrogen. We used to do power our pneumatic tools with nitrogen when we were at the track. Lots of pressure sure made the impact wrench go a heck of a lot faster.

Fortunately for us, we had heard about the guy who blew his hand off when he hooked up an oxygen bottle to his impact.

For those who may not know this, pure oxygen has a violent reaction when it hits oil or grease. It will instantly catch fire if it's out in the open, or blow up if it's in a confined space, (such as an impact wrench). The instant the guy pulled the trigger, his hand was gone.

Be safe!
Mike

crank throw wei

07-25-2004, 07:20 PM

I'm sure that's what he meant,but I just couldn't leave it alone! Call it a character flaw. I meant no disrespect.

Mike Keeney

07-25-2004, 07:43 PM

I'm sure that's what he meant,but I just couldn't leave it alone! Call it a character flaw. I meant no disrespect.
Not to worry, I thought your post was funny, and I don't even have any NOX. :D

Cheers,
Mike

vtl1180ny

07-26-2004, 01:02 PM

This is some great reading and some of you are out of your minds!!! Not that there's anything wrong with that... hehehe...

My money is going to go on the guys who abide by the KISS Principle... I myself am looking to build two cars, one electric and one nitro powered... Win or lose this aught to be a blast to do.... My wife has decided if we go this is a vacation for her....

RS4ss

07-27-2004, 01:56 AM

yes mike i do mean nitrogen, we use it in pro paintballing. and it doesnt use thrust, it uses the exhaust section of a turbocharger to capture the energy from six high pressure air nozzles. we just finished the mock up version and took it to a local dyno. we turned it on and opened the regulator but to our suprise it worked great, too good. but we dont have ceramic bearings and at about 120 thousand rpm the bearings gave way. ive never seen an electric or nitro do 120 thousand rpm, u. and our twin .70 car is almost completed. according to a police radar it ran 92mph with low gearing. i didnt have high hopes for the nitro car, but we are using a cnc machine at my fathers shop to fabricate gears one half the size of the existing. oh and crank, yes they will be laughing, at the fact that you didnt think of the idea first. oh, by the way, n2o (*di*-nitrous oxide)isnt a supercharging agent, it is an oxidizer, and isnt laughing gas. nirtogen, which we are using, is. but its anyones game.

Mike Keeney

07-27-2004, 04:24 AM

Hi RS4ss,

I've never seen a paintball gun so I'm not really sure how that mechanism works. However, if your car uses a gas to turn a fan which in turn drives a set of gears which drives the wheels, the car would be conforming to the rules. If the car is propelled by gas, nitrogen in this case, it wouldn't be allowed.

Congrats on hitting 92. It sounds like your gear changes will make your car a real contender. I'm rooting for you!

Regarding the Nitrogen/Nitrous definition, you have it backwards about which is which. Nitrous Oxide is the gas used in auto racing as well as your dentist. Nitrogen, which makes up the majority of the air we breathe, is an inert gas suitable for the application you're describing because it doesn't burn or react adversely with petroleum products.

Either way, I'm looking forward to meeting you in Irwindale. It sounds like your group will be a tough contender.

Cheers,
Mike

RS4ss

07-28-2004, 12:42 AM

thanx mike. and thanx for the definitions. yeah the nitro will be something if we dont smash it or flip it first. and i hope the nitrogen car will be just as sucessful. we might have to re think the design because it keeps melting bearings in the turbo. i think a set of ceramic bearings are in order. but none the less, we look forward to meeting you and all the other contenders there, like i said, if we dont create a screaming metal death trap instead of a true contender.

RS4ss

07-28-2004, 12:49 AM

oh, here is a pic of a paintball gun, the bottle attaches to the bottom of the grip in a horizantal position

Mike Keeney

07-28-2004, 01:41 AM

You might want to give some thought to using bushings instead of bearings. There is a company called Pacific Bearing that has a product called Frelon Gold. It's a space age ceramic that has an extremely low friction value, but is capable of handling extreme environments. They might be worth testing. You can buy directly from PB or through MSC. Your dad will have the latest MSC catalog at his shop.

Cheers,
Mike

RS4ss

07-29-2004, 12:47 AM

thanks for the advice. my dad just finished the gears. we put them on and ran it on a street near my house. it was movin, but our frequency isnt strong enough to run very far. we started to think that maybe a large plane of helicopter transmitter would be better. but with money tight we went to a local drag strip, its 1/8th a mile with another 1/8th a mile run off. we had a chase car, a 5.0 mustang, and it still couldnt keep up with the car. but we still dont know accurate times because the chase car was doing 105 or so and our car was still leaving it. it also occurs to me that we must seriously consider aerodynamics and drag...after seeing my car fip up and over at the end of the track, oh yes, cartwheels. banged up the cooling heads and body. only cosmetics i guess. but i just hope that we can get that sorted out, because if not we might not even make it to the challenge. oh and the nitrous car, well we sorted out the bearing and friction problem, and mated it to the chassis. we tried to run it but it wont move from a dead stop. we have yet to try to push it a a high rate of speed. it has the thrust, just not the gearing. it will only be a single gear, 1 to 1 ratio to the rear. hope we figure it all out. oh and good luck to everyone else who is building.

RS4ss

08-05-2004, 12:25 AM

well, we wont be bringing the nitrous car to the comp. we ran it several times at our local drag strip. it took about a 30mph push to get it going. after that it was a land rocket. at its fastest it ran through the 1/8 mile speed trap at 126.3mph. and we put a venom speed meter on it and chutes. on the last run the vsm read 142mph and the chutes read a negative. and a wall and sand-trap arent exactally what we had in mind to stop it. it disentigrated into about 10 or so peices. i dont quite think that the world is ready for a compressed nitrogen rc car. and the twin .70 car is fixed, and we are still test running it.

Mike Keeney

08-05-2004, 04:15 AM

Don't get disappointed this early. If these speeds were easy all of the cars would be able to go that fast. The truth is, this is going to be hard and there are going to be setbacks. It sounds like you've got a real contender. There's plenty of time to fine tune the design. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and apply what you have learned to version 2.

Good luck.
Mike

KMac

08-05-2004, 07:50 AM

Don't get discouraged; you've got a good basic platform. It looks as though if you had a 2-speed with the first gear pretty tall you would be able to get up to your push speed, then change gears to the final drive.

Bear in mind, though, you're looking at a loooooong acceleration time; be prepared to have to drive the car down the back stretch of Irwindale and through the corners at 90 mph or so then drop the hammer coming out of the 4th turn to get your speed. No doubt it can be done, it's just risky.

Keep pluggin' away.

crank throw wei

08-05-2004, 11:26 PM

I agree with the above RS4SS,it sounds like you're on the right path,just needs refinement.And perhaps keep in mind that while some folks are running very exotic hardware,the simplicity of a compressed gas drive vehicle is very attractive,and,I'm sure,much less expensive if it does happen to crash.Go for round 2. :cool:

RS4ss

08-06-2004, 01:02 AM

thanx guys. we tried to fix what we could, but we trashed the whole steering mechanism, bent the aluminum chassis, and broke our most vital part of the car- the regulator to control the flow of nitrogen. but, i just need to order a new chassis, some parts for the steering mechanism and have my dad build another regulator. oh, we fixed the nitro twin .70 car. we did maybe 20 or so runs on a street near where i live, then we took it to our drag strip. but even after our mods to the aerodynamics (a smooth underbody 1/16 or so inches from the ground, large front lola style front end, and lexan spoiler) it wouldnt stick to the ground. and i now know the true meaning of trial and error. especially after it becoming an airplane again. but, its all in time. good luck!

Mike Keeney

08-06-2004, 01:29 AM

Glad to hear you're learning from your testing. That's what testing is for. Better to break things now than when there's no margin for error.

You might want to post a picture of your car. I'm sure we'd all like to see what you're running, and some of us might be able to give a suggestion or two on keeping the thing on the ground.

If it'll make you feel better, you can be thankful you're not building my car. My crashes are going to be EXPENSIVE! :eek:

Mike

mgs9

08-07-2004, 01:36 AM

Well be thank full that you have a car that will do 100+. My little 4-tech struggles for 35 mph :o . Keep at it.

mgs9

08-07-2004, 01:37 AM

oops it posted twice :D

TheBurninator

08-07-2004, 07:50 PM

I have a small hope that nitro will win. Personally, i just don't like the idea of electric cars that much. Besides, nitro has other options as well, like turbo head buttons and porting and crank and piston aerodynamics and all that good stuff. And also, more cells on an electric is like more engines in a nitro, so just put more engines in, along with a 5-speed tranny or something. just my 2 cents.....

mgs9

08-07-2004, 11:15 PM

Sry but i dont thing more cells is like more engines. It would be like putting a nitrous kit on a gas engine,
Its not healthy but it makes it run faster. Theres no point in saying whats going to win because there is so many advantages and disadvatages to each and its an endless battle and also

I'am a veterian of 5 Insane Speed Runs held by NORRCA, and come race day alot of you will be in for a big surprise.
controlling a car that far away from you at ANY speed is not easy.

Thats my 2 cents 8-)

tvrkidd

08-14-2004, 05:34 PM

why is every one so limited on using rc specific motors......there are so many 4 stroke high horsepower motors out there that are small enough to run in a 40in chasis...a motor that produces200 hp and is meant to propel adults would be my guess on a winner....just aerodynamics to keep it on the ground at that point. i am not saying nitro will win i think something with regular pump gas will take it

trigger happy

08-14-2004, 06:06 PM

i think that nitro would win especially now that there makeing 2 enjine versions
im prettey sure that the record is 96mph on a nitro

racinwireless04

08-14-2004, 06:34 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since everyone is thinking about building a v-twin engine for this event why not take something smaller. A 45cc scootor engine with transmission and bent drive to a three wheeled chassis. The bult drive would drive the rear wheel and a servo would drive the throtal lingcage have the front 2 wheels move with some kid of power (dont know what) Have slicks put on some big rims and everything tuned. You dont need brakes, because you just go around the track and wait for it to slow down sine it is an oval track. Then designs a body out of cla and have it molded and there you go a custom scootor. If anyone uses this idea please e-mail me at racinwireless04@aol.com or if andone tapes this event please e-mail me at that address.
this should get up to a pretty good speed about 135 or so.

racinwireless04

08-14-2004, 06:35 PM

my friend has a twin t-maxx that tops at 128mph

RS4ss

08-17-2004, 12:38 AM

you guys dont understand. by putting a large motor on such a small car you must do alot more than just bolt it on. you must consider the gearing, aerodynamics, drag, power to weight ratio, and the engine rev. by putting a large engine on a small car you add weight. and you also have to modify aerodynamics and consider the drag. but the power to weight ratio would be amazing. on the other hand using smaller engines that can fit under pre built bodies that have great aerodynamic charactaristics, the problem of drag is no longer an issue. also the weight is far less than with a giant motor. but when you consider the larger engines slow rpm and the smaller engines high rpm (around 10000 or so vs. up to 48000) the truth is that a larger engine would have to be radically geared in order to obtain such high speed with small tires. and ive been running and testing two cars, of which one is a twin .70 thunder tiger heli motor set up. and it runs a cool 139, as of last weekends trial at the dragstrip

Speedtester

08-17-2004, 12:42 AM

Your joking right? If not I highly doubt that speed is correct.

my friend has a twin t-maxx that tops at 128mph

NitroCrackers

08-17-2004, 02:36 AM

128 scale mph *spitts coffee* bwuahahahahahahahahahaha

mgs9

08-17-2004, 07:16 PM

128mph:confused: I too dought that, He would have had special tires because i bet the t-maxx tires would fly right off. I also think that the t-maxx would not have enough traction to go that fast do to the high clearance, and lack of arrow dynamics. The engines i thing would also be very hard to idle and run at the same speed.
Im not saying its not possible but i dought some one got it to go 128, 100mph mabey:)
Im not flaming, Im just doughting it:)

Otto-matic

08-17-2004, 11:10 PM

I'm almost all certain that everybody has seen a candle flame burn in a pure oxygen environment. Although it may not do much for smaller engines, you are actually forcing in more oxygen resulting in larger explosion. They are already proven, and it works for automobiles. Remenber, NOTHING SUCKS. More tubes and tunnels you have to your carb, the more time it will take for air molecules to go through those chambers. A supercharger will certainly help with those hp you are looking for. Besides, why would they spend hours on something that doesn't work? Researchars spend alot of money and time on developing something like this. Have fun disturbing your neighbors!

SIKB3

09-01-2004, 06:37 AM

I'm new, so don't know my way around ;)

Could you strap a servo into a tether car and make it RC or wouldn't it work?

Scomp87

09-01-2004, 06:33 PM

Doubt. Doubt doubt doubt doubt!! Spell people for the love of God. We doubt other's statements, we do not dought it. How do you get dought anyway?
I would think dought would be pronounced mabye doh-t or daw-t. www.google.com If you type something and google asks you if you meant something else, the probability is you misspelled the word by typo or you just plainly should not use such advanced vocabulary. Doh! -t

128mph:confused: I too dought that, He would have had special tires because i bet the t-maxx tires would fly right off. I also think that the t-maxx would not have enough traction to go that fast do to the high clearance, and lack of arrow dynamics. The engines i thing would also be very hard to idle and run at the same speed.
Im not saying its not possible but i dought some one got it to go 128, 100mph mabey:)
Im not flaming, Im just doughting it:)

Interstate

09-01-2004, 07:34 PM

Alright, alright, take it easy. If we could all spell Mr. Webster wouldn't have sold so many of his famous books; the dictionary.

Look up patience in the aforementioned book. You knew what he ment, give him a break. Take a deep breath, and let it go...

mgs9

09-01-2004, 08:09 PM

Im dyslexic, not a very good speller there scomp. I apologize for the spelling error its one those words that seems like it would need a ough plus a "T" . Actuly I have "Tiny Spell" (thanks Mike) I forget about it some times though. So from now on, I will make sure to spell "doubt" from now on. :)

Mike Keeney

09-02-2004, 12:48 PM

One of the funniest bumper stickers I've ever seen:

Dyslexics of America UNTIE!

Not dissing you MGS9.

Mike

rpmmaxxed

09-29-2004, 11:54 PM

LOL, that is quite funny.

Not at all dissing you MGS9, I have multiple direct relatives that are dislexic. Im one of the lucky ones in our family that does not have it.

I did find that funny though.

mgs9

09-30-2004, 12:15 AM

Yea it is pretty funny. I Read it as unite :o at first then I read it agian and realized that it said untie. Thats crule to play with our minds like that Mike lol.
Funny though. :D

MT Dude

09-30-2004, 12:25 AM

so is that what dislexia is? just misplacing letters in your mind so you sometimes read things backwards? i thought i was something else

-Chris

mgs9

09-30-2004, 12:42 AM

Yea thats pretty much it, Ther is more to it, its just harder for people with dyslexia to do english related subjects ( spelling, reading, ect). I don't struggle with it too much anymore, some times I will use the wrong spelling of a word or miss spell a word. Like "doubt".
By the way Its Dyslexia not " Dislexia " Lol :p
I dont realy care I just had to do it. :D

And thats why I think eletric will win. :D
Lol

rpmmaxxed

09-30-2004, 01:01 AM

It is cool that you can laugh at it yourself.

I have a friend with cerebral paulsy over most of his left side, man is it funny the **** that he says when His body doesnt co-operate... definetly a crackup LOL.

Chris LaPanse

10-01-2004, 10:16 PM

Yep- I have a t-shirt that says that. Also, regarding the t-maxx, i highly DOUBT that it does 128. With twin BL e-maxxes, it is an accomplishment to go 65, and t-maxxes probably the same.

krisI.925

10-02-2004, 05:50 PM

well to get off the topic of reading disorders and back to the thread subject:

I think it will all depend on the design of the car. Electric motors are more capable of developing a better power to weight ratio than any internal combustion engine can. And with greater efficiancy too. Th best electric motors can have up to 95% efficiancy while even some of the best engines are around 85%. So if you want my 2 cents its gonna be jet propulsion all the way.. :D or is that not allowed?

rpmmaxxed

10-02-2004, 10:54 PM

Electric motors do deliver the best power to weight ratio, to a certain extent.

Electric motors make rapid amounts of power and torque, up until about 35K rpm's, then the gaining power starts too fade. YES, they do continue to make more power and torque, but not nearly as much as the peak from 0-35K range.

Nitro engines on the other hand, Make real power from idle to Top rev, which makes for a much nicer power band.(This is true for most performance engines, which excludes pro.15's, lower OS engines, and equal. This INCLUDES, Sirio's, piccos, Nova's etc.)

Personally, I will be using a Sirio.12 evo2 or a Sirio.15 7port. Both have been ported and polished. I just have not had the ability to test either engine in my vehicle yet. The .12 makes unbeleivable power, and after porting, Makes a LARGE audible increase in RPM's, and after 1/4 gallon since being ported, it is still running strong.

My guess as to who will be fastest, is as good as everyone elses. Only the actual event will reveal the answer.

DaFF

10-03-2004, 05:12 AM

Electric motors make rapid amounts of power and torque, up until about 35K rpm's, then the gaining power starts too fade. YES, they do continue to make more power and torque, but not nearly as much as the peak from 0-35K range.

Wrong, wrong, wrong my friend !

I have a high end BL car and did those measurment using my Eagle Tree data acquisition system.

My BL is running extremly strong and extremly fast up to 65 000 rpm !!!

See enclosed graph, it ramps up pretty smooth up to top rpm and doesn't show any sign of fading at around 35 000 rpm LoL

500 W of BL power up to 65 000 in a 2-1/2 lb car, can you say fast :D

For the record, there is absolutly NO nitro car that can even come close to it when it comes to accel, I have done side / side comparison with high end R&B X12 nitro car. It is not even funny how it drop the pants off the nitro :eek: , by the time the nitro clutch engage fully I am already way ahead...

BTW, not saying nitro are not powerfull, I do have some pretty fast nitro too ( R&B C5, probably still one off the fastest .21 engine ).

http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48804&stc=1

DFF

rpmmaxxed

10-03-2004, 05:38 PM

...by the time the nitro clutch engage fully I am already way ahead...

I dont know what nitro car this was, or what the owner of the car was doing, but if there was such a long pause for the clutch to engage, there is something wrong. My cars clutch engages, AUTOMATICALLY when I apply throttle.

When I said that ELECTRICS dont continue to make as much power from 35K rpm and up, I did not mean that there was no longer power increase. THERE IS, but there is not such a dramatic increase as the idle to 35K jump. NITROS make max power from idle all the way to top RPM.

rpmmaxxed

10-03-2004, 05:41 PM

BTW, just becasue the motor will do 65K rpm on a dyno, does not mean it will pull anywhere near that peak under load.

Interstate

10-03-2004, 06:33 PM

I'm going to have to take DaFF's side on this one. Nitro engines do NOT make maximum power from idle to max RPM. I'd say nitro engines (many of them) make maximum power around 3/4 maximum revs. before that it's really just spooling up.

Electric motors make most power just about up to 3/4 max revs.

In a stand still drag race, an electric car would most likely win because of it's greater acceleration off the line. (there's always exceptions what with uber-high performance machines and equipment etc...) But in a rolling start, around 1/2 throttle, I'd say the nitro would win.

The two powerplants have different powerplants because of the laws of physics.

DaFF

10-04-2004, 01:08 PM

Rpmmax,

What I showed you is in no way on a dyno, it is from real race, my car is collecting data while it is running around my track !!!

I am telling you that I am consistently hitting 65 000 rpm at the end of the straight and that is a given fact reported by my in-board data system.

I can sure show you some pics of my car with the system set-up on it, but if you want more info, go toward the end of this thread for full report, pictures, graphs and stuff:

http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1573897#post1573897

Also, talking about nitro, It is in no way car owned by neewbies that know nothing and don't know how to drive, I am talking about the big dogs at my track that are racing for serious at National and Europe level.

Cars I am talking about are high end cars, man you should see them, mainly V-One RR, Mugen, Serpent that cost a little fortune.

There are as well seasonnal veteran and I tell you, those guys can shows anybody how to setup and tune in the proper maner a car...

Anyway, talking about clutch, most high end nitro have three points aluminum clutch that engage fairly late.

When they are iddling and get going it is not instant like power like it is with an electric. The nitro needs to spool-up before it does a good amount of power.

Yes, of course, they are powerfull and accelerate pretty fast, but from a stand still I can tell you that they stand NO chance against a high end brushless + Lipo like mine.

Keep in mine as well that the lightest nitro I've ever seen are around 1,750 kg ( 3.85 lbs ) RTR and that's full CF, Titanium lightweight setup.

My rig is 1.200 kg ( 2.65 lbs ) RTR, it means 45% lighter. It is a HUGE advantage when it comes to accel, no doubt about that.

Anyway, enough rambling, I am off this post.

DFF

Interstate

10-04-2004, 01:33 PM

Hey DFF, Because your car is much lighter than nitros, how does that affect handleing? It seems to me that because it's lighter, it'd have less grip around corners at high speeds.

studysession

10-04-2004, 02:03 PM

Once you add the amount of batteries required to get up to speed. The electric can end up weighing more than the nitro.

DaFF

10-04-2004, 03:59 PM

OK, you insisted, back to the topic LoL

Interstate,

It is the other way around. you can not bend the physic law, heavier = more centrifugal force, meaning more forces sending your car out of the curve.

It is at any speed, high speed turn or tight slow turn.

Look at rally car or F1 car, they are shaving every ounce of weight to gain accel but also to get a better handling car.

Note also that because my car is so light, I am using extreme low 30 shore rating tire that are sticking like glue on asphalt.

Not to mention on high speed turn, it is more a question of aerodynamics that anything else...

Heavier car are easier to control though, as the lighter car are more prone to be extreme when pushed to the limit and can fly high !

Nitro or heavier car can't use the same tire without going through them at a rate no one can afford or even can destroy low shore tire - I've seen pretty messed-up tire after only a few laps -

I know it all sound like I am the Man in the house and that I get cocky, but it is not the case, I am only stating fact from my experience and what I've seen and tried.

Studysession,

I am using the lighweight Lithium Polymer batt.

For example, my pack is only 263 grams ( roughly half a pound ) and is twice as powerfull as a 6 cell Nimh pack that weight 1/3 more than that.

DFF

studysession

10-04-2004, 04:26 PM

I forgot you were running LiPo's --- I have some LiPo's but have not assembled the packs yet. Looking forward to trying them but need new solder tips first. :)

Interstate

10-04-2004, 05:01 PM

I see what you mean. I was kindof thinking of a car that's too light.

mgs9

10-04-2004, 07:17 PM

Hey DFF, Because your car is much lighter than nitros, how does that affect handleing? It seems to me that because it's lighter, it'd have less grip around corners at high speeds.

Well put daff.
Dont forget that if you had a heavier car that it would be hard to turn as well.
If your going 100 mph with a heavy vehicle, its going to want to go strait, when you go to turn, the centrifugal force is going to pull on one side of the car, and a heavier will have alot more centrifugal force than a light car because of weight and it takes more power to get a heavy car up to speed and is going to transfer all of that weight to one side of the car and pull it out in that direction. Meaning your going to lose some traction. If you turn too sharp you could actuly roll it. ( not saying that a light car cant roll, but probbly not as easily.)

Hope i explained that right.

skulnick7

10-06-2004, 04:12 PM

Just curious what everyone thinks will be the fastest. Brushless motors have some smokin power and I'm sure they car get up to some rediculous speeds. What about nitro? Anyone think they can go as fast? What do you think the top speed will be?

I will guess 125 mph by Cliff Lett with a brushless something.
:) Hey i am only 13 and i have some big planes for my traxxas nitro 4-tech, right now it will do about 65mph and i was thinking about puting a rb innovations super charger and a jag rc nitrous oxide system in it. It is going to go fast i think.
Do you think it will work, because it has never been done before.

Interstate

10-06-2004, 05:01 PM

Do a search of the boards, many people have concluded that the supercharger from rbinnovations doesn't work, and neither does the jag nitrous kit.

BigJim1

10-06-2004, 10:23 PM

I posted this on another topic but it seems more fitting here. As I state later in this post, the World's Fastest R/C Car is NOT Cliff Lett's car nor was his "Guinness" Record an official World's Record.

]Hi Everyone

BIG JIM Greenemeyer here. I usually don't go on forums other than my own motor forum at www.rccars.com or the Integy Forum because I've had people impersonate me. They say stupid things and I get in trouble. If I just stay on the two then people know it's not me when it happens. But I'm making an exception today. I say this because someone else is registered on this forum as "Big Jim". I am bigjim1 here.

For those who don't know me let me give a little personal background.
I have been manufacturing, winding, tuning and designing electric motors for toy cars for more than 40 years now. I rewound my first slot car motor in 1964 while still in high-school. I later went into business manufacturing slot car motors. In 1978, I sold the equipment that couldn't be converted into making r/c car electric motors and started Team Checkpoint Racing, becoming incorporated in 1984.

During that period I desiged and manufactured the first ROAR approved electric motor completely made in the America called the Checkpoint Platinum. If I had to mention a "claim-to-fame" so to speak, it would be this motor which I feel was way ahead of it's time. Last year, one of my Platinum II motors made during that time period sold on EBay for almost $200.00 and it was nothing particularly special. Just a pristine example of a new production Platinum motor found in the stash of an old hobby shop. It had the original price still on the package of $75.00. Team Checkpoint Racing Inc., officially went out of business in 1990. But I stayed busy building motors and racing.

These days, I make the bulk of my income from consulting other motor companies on r/c car motor design. Associated Electrics and Trinity Products were two of my latest clients. I still build some motors and sell other r/c products and I do a lot of other forum work which is totally magnanomous. I don't mean to sound so grandious using that word. Let's just say I do a lot of work helping people with their motor questions for no monitary compensation at all. I feel it's just giving back a little that has given me so much in the 24 years I've been in the "biz". I can't think of a better way to support the hobby/sport of r/c car racing.
You can read a bit more about me in the December 1999 issue of Radio Controlled Car Action Magazine in the article, "The Century in RC".

I also have a published book about r/c car electric motor tuning and design titled, Big Jim's R/C Motor Black Book, printed by Trafford Publishing available from my website (www.bigjimracing.net) or by ordering on-line direct from the publisher.

Well, that's enough about me. I hate talking about myself because I always feel I'm sounding pretentious when I do.
I just wanted to post here on this forum that the official record for the World's Fastest R/C Car belongs to Chris Collins at 112.5 mph which was not exceeded by Cliff Lett's attempt, although it is a "Guinness" record. Chris's car and motor were made by Steve Saik, formally of Immortal Force Racing. The reason I am familiar with that record is the 13 turn quint armature in that brushed electric motor was made by me. The record was recorded and the race info was sent to and reported in RCCA magazine.

The record was made using a 300 foot-long straight-away and from a standing start. The speed was recorded at the end of that 300' finish line. Gas engines were allowed as were brushless motors of any size. Electric cars could use any number of batteries. The only restriction was the car had to be 1/10th scale. The car Chris used was a Top Fuel dragster of the type currently used at 1/10th scale drag meets using 20, 600mah cells, if my memory serves me correctly. I'm almost sure Steve Pond can find something in the archieves if anyone would like more info on the race.

The record has lasted a long time. But I believe cars can go much faster with the new Ni-Mh 3300mah cells we use now. The absolute speed record will probably fall next year but Chris and Steve will be there and I am already testing special Power Trix armatures that will be in some of the motors at that race. It's going to be a fun and historic race, I'm sure.

Good luck to everyone going.

Good Racing,
BIG JIM Greenemeyer
www.bigjimracing.net[/QUOTE]

skulnick7

10-23-2004, 12:15 AM

bull they do to work trust me, i am an expert. i just put the supercharger and nitrouse among a lot of other things at the end it cost me over $500 but it was worth it because i have clocked it at over 150 mph. I told you i am an expert

Do a search of the boards, many people have concluded that the supercharger from rbinnovations doesn't work, and neither does the jag nitrous kit.

racinlosi

10-23-2004, 06:23 PM

bull

That about explains your post you just made.

ducati777

11-16-2004, 06:23 PM

If any of you are into physics, the above stated run by Big Jim would require an average acceleration of 2.7 G's!!! I'm not doubting it at all, rc cars can be really quick.

If that acceleration were kept up for a quarter of a mile, it would result in a trap speed of 241 mph! Cool eh. I'm betting Big Jim was pushing the limits of traction, which makes 241 mph a theoretical speed limit of an RC car at a 1/4 drag strip.

Craps

11-16-2004, 07:14 PM

Can somebody confirm that the German at SAWS broke his record with a 146 mph run this year or was that just a radar/laser measured speed that was not official?

feracer

12-01-2004, 11:46 PM

I was at the event in November and saw the runs. Joerg raised the two-way record to 123+ mph using virtually the same setup he used last year to go 120+. On the last day of the event right before dark he put the boat in the water with a new motor and prop - unfortunately he hit the shore after the first pass through the traps and could not repair the boat in time to return to the water. Fortunately the clock showed a one-way average of 133 mph. A police cruiser was sitting at the far end of the lake and registered 143 mph on radar just before it hit the bank. This makes sense as the boat was obviously still accelerating as it went through the traps. With a better line through the traps he certainly could have been close to - or over - a 140 mph record.

The same problem limits the top speeds of both boats and cars - traction. The German team make their own props and are still learning what works. High cell count cars are traction limited, so lighter cells will only hurt them; the weight difference is not that great anyway when LiPos are wired together for maximum amp draw - ca. 150 amps. With current technology there is more than enough power to go 150+, but traction and a long enough runup are the hurdles. Legg Lake is already about at the limit for speeds - not enough run up and slow down length.

feracer

12-02-2004, 12:01 AM

bull they do to work trust me, i am an expert. i just put the supercharger and nitrouse among a lot of other things at the end it cost me over $500 but it was worth it because i have clocked it at over 150 mph. I told you i am an expertWhat a troll, he is not smart enough to remember what he wrote in another thread in this forum. Here is what he wrote on November 22nd:

here is what ia m going to be racing in about 2 years, i am going to be working on this 4-tech over winter anyways here is the list of stuff i am going to get for it.
- Rb innovation custom super charger
- jag r/c custom nitrouse oxide system
- traxxas tuned pipe and header
- Rb innovations air intake
- rb innovation hypervalve fuel system
And to top it off i am going to be running traxxas's new 33% nitro, and
i am going to get the engine ported and polished.....I figure it will go 150 plus mph. and 0-60 in about 2 seconds and it will run about 60,000 rpm. What an "expert", he sure doesn't let physical laws get in his way! Don't try to fool the honest posters on this board again skullboy.... ;)

mp75unlimited

12-02-2004, 12:28 AM

I was wondering....as a marketing gimmick/ploy whatever you may call it - why don't Novarossi or any reputable engine manufacturer out there create one brand spanking *once off prototype* engine out of *aerospace* materials and stretch the limits of engineering?

I'm talking about titanium parts and the like - of course most (or all) will be custom made, but if it works, i'm sure it would be a marketing winner.

In the real car world I believe the most powerful Nissan GTR sports a 1600+ bhp engine with titanium parts and the like inside.

I'm sure with the right minds and the right tools brainstorming together, a 150mph+ nitro bullet is very much possible? :D

Craps

12-02-2004, 04:02 AM

feracer
Thanks for the info about SAWS! If you have anymore info to add please share it with us about SAWS and the fast boats.

feracer

12-02-2004, 01:35 PM

What would you like to know Craps? I hold three FE SAW records, and my catamaran records are faster than any NAMBA non-rigger hydro record. I 've competed in 3 of the 4 NAMBA "World" SAWs held in LA and am a member of that original group of SAW racers. I'm also well tied into the FE SAW scene. Again, what specifically would you like to know? I could write a book....as could many others.

Craps

12-02-2004, 04:14 PM

Wow!

I'm impressed!

Was Li-Pos used much during any records at SAWS?

What ESC, batteries (# of cells and type) and motor/s was used for the record fastest run?

Thank you!

feracer

12-02-2004, 10:21 PM

LiPos are not legal for NAMBA competition; talking with some of the faster racers, they do not believe that LiPos will give higher speeds than NiMH cells. Here's why: wiring enough of them together to give enough amps means there is little weight advantage. We don't need high capacity, we need maximum watts out fast, and the NiMH cells do that best - for now. Also, speed does nothing if you cannot keep the boat on the water, and until we get even more refined in our hull designs, the extra weight of the NiMH cells helps keep the boats on the water. Eventually this will change, but not today.

For the 123 mph record the Team JAGs T-Hydro ran 32 Hopf GP 3300 cells, a Lehner 2260/5 motor (custom, it helps to know the maker personally), custom SS 2-bladed prop based on the Octura 1945 made by the Team, and a Schulze 32/170 ESC. An interesting bit of trivia - this is the exact same controller used to set the european car speed record this fall at 111.17 mph; Joerg on the JAGs team loaned it to his Swedish friend Sigge for the car run. What a guy, loaning a $600 electronic part to a guy in another country.

For the single 133 mph pass the prop was changed out for a custom 3-bladed one - he may have changed out the motor too, but that isn't confirmed. You should have seen that boat accelerate! I was standing on the driver's stand as it went by below me, quite a thrill. The hull was carbon fiber and fiberglass and it hit the shore at 143 mph, spun into the air, crossed a point of land and landed back in the lake. The bottom of the hull was damaged but the boat was intact - quite a sight to witness. Too bad he couldn't back up that 133 mph pass... :(