Rules Discussion

[Potato]

Looking over the rules, I though this rule was a bit odd:


"5. Vehicles are not required to look like any type of "real" car or truck, but all entries must have some type of 3-dimensional “cockpit area” with windows (clear or painted). It’s OK if your car looks like a space ship as long as it appears to have a place for a guy to sit. "


At what point is it not a "cockpit area?" A car could be designed so that the driver lies down, facing forward. Would that make it a "cockpit area?" Personally, I think this rule is too subjective and not necessary for an all-out speed run vehicle. Is this supposed to be a contest of r/c cars, or a contest of display models? R/C cars don't need miniature drivers to sit in them, and since realism was never the point of this contest in the first place, why add this rule?? It doesn't seem to match the spirit of the contest.

Any other opinions on this?

[rc10gtisthebest]

Well it's supposed to go with the theme R/C "CARS", cars aren't cars without a driver ;)

[tperkins]

This has nothing to do with the first post, but I dont like the rule about no "thrust" power vehicles. I think any vehicle powered by a nitro or electric motor made for r/c should be allowed. This would still not allow jet turbine engines or rockets, but would let in ducted fan systems. I just saying that cause a project im working on has ducted fans for power, but hey, it would be fun to see what kind of speeds fan powered cars could get to.

[Craps]

I just wonder is the speed measured through a trap with 2 runs each direction is it an all out run measured around the 1/2 mile track?

How long would the measured distance be, like maybe 100 feet or 100 yards?

Just curious about the RC vehicle needed to have anykind of handling to negoiate 100+ mph speeds through a long sweeping corner of the 1/2 mile track?

[Speedtester]

Kinda weird how they dont have any width requirements. I guess someone could have a 24" x 100" car with lotsa motors and batterys. :p :p

[Grant Tokumi]

Kinda weird how they dont have any width requirements. I guess someone could have a 24" x 100" car with lotsa motors and batterys. :p :p
And it happens to drive sideways.... :)

[Speedtester]

And it happens to drive sideways.... :)

Lmao.

[Sigurd Ruschkow]

Hello,

I think that it is a great thing to have this event! :)

With great disappointment I read that there is a very low max length of the car. Only 61 cm! This will rule out the fastest cars! No doubt about it.
For ex, This will rule out the 1:5 scale cars!

Is this competiton only for 1:8, 1:10 and smaller cars???

My car that I am designing right now is around the same size as a 1:5 scale rc car.

I do not mind restricting the size, but why rule out such a polular size as 1:5 scale (and 1:4 scale) rc cars?

I suggest that you change the rules to incorporate normal rc car sizes like 1:4 and 1:5.

Please comment on this.
Thanks.


Regards,
Sigurd Ruschkowski
Sweden

Extreme Speed Electric RC Car (http://w1.877.telia.com/~u87744635/CarProjectWeb/)

[racerrandy]

I got an idea, why don't everyone interested in competing, build their car according to the rules set out by the guys that are hosting the event. Nobody is making you enter.

[StevePond]

Thank you randy. ;) We're actually considering opening up the size requirements to allow bigger cars like the 1/5 and 1/4-scale machines. We'll post it soon so everyone will be aware of the change once we have a consensus on the rule change.

[cool head]

i don't think the rules should be alterd to accomodate everyone. i can understand accomodating the handicapped with wheel chair access. but not a normal guy that can read the rules. the idea is to build a car to spec and compete with it. the bigger the car, the easier it will be to beat the record. that will also wipe out the chances of a 1/8 or 1/10 car of winning. which will probably be the most popular and affordable.

[Sigurd Ruschkow]

I guess I am one of the guys that "cannot read" the rules.

As I have understood the intention of this race, it is all about breaking the RC car speed record that Lett now has (and having fun!).

I am designing a larger than the rules allows car, and I plan to race that at the end of this summer. Let's say I beat Lett's record doing impossible 180 mph, and also have Guiness there at my race.
Then, you guys at the race in June 2005,
will have to try and breake my official record. And my record will be made with a larger car than is allowed in the June 2005 race (but it is still legal for Guiness).

This would imply, that no one stands a chance in beating my record as you will all race smaller, 1:10, scale cars!!!

Or if I fail this year, maybe another racer will beat Lett's record in Feb 2005 with a large car. Then we will have the same problem at the race in June 2005 - an impossible mission.

No, I do not think that this problem should be allowed to happen, so,
let's allow larger cars up to max 1:4th scale cars.


Regards,
Sigurd

Extreme Speed Electric RC Car (http://w1.877.telia.com/~u87744635/CarProjectWeb/)


i don't think the rules should be alterd to accomodate everyone. i can understand accomodating the handicapped with wheel chair access. but not a normal guy that can read the rules. the idea is to build a car to spec and compete with it. the bigger the car, the easier it will be to beat the record. that will also wipe out the chances of a 1/8 or 1/10 car of winning. which will probably be the most popular and affordable.
Extreme Speed Electric RC Car (http://w1.877.telia.com/~u87744635/CarProjectWeb/)

[cool head]

my post wasn't aimed at you sigurd. i just think that the challange was put out by RCZ and they stated the rules. so if you want to play with them, you have to follow their rules. the guiness record doesn't state that the car can't have a chase vehicle or be rocket assisted either, i can beat the record with a rocket assisted vehicle. but the rules are pretty clear about what you can and cant do. the rules will bring more people and even out the competition a bit. i also think there should be a buy out for the first place cars. meaning, if your car wins, anybody has an option to buy the car for say $1500. that will keep it from being a rich man competition.

steve, can you give us an estimate length of the competition area? and can i use more than one radio? are parachutes allowed for stopping?

[racerrandy]

This is the Worlds Fastest R/C Car Challange. Not I.M.C.A. Claim motor racing. Do you think they have a claim at Bonneville? I don't think so. This is not a race that some teeny bopper is gonna save his allowance and build a car and win. There is gonna be some serious cash laid out to win this deal, even in the individual catagory.

[cool head]

it was just a suggestion. i don't think "serious cash" should be spent on a hobbie toy for some no biggie record.i doubt letts car costed more than $500. there could be hundres of entries in this event. this is not a open race where anything goes. a claim car event would give the designers something to think about as they build their machines. not the "build it at any cost" way or thinking. thats how our government does things. i'm sure there will be lots of kids that would love to try and build a car for this event on thier allowance.

[Mac The Knife]

Kids, attempting to build a 150 mph rc car, on their allowance,,,,,,, Scary.

[racerrandy]

The motor on Letts tc3 was a neo-mag motor that on the street brings $250. They went through several doing it. I don't think they were off the shelf batts either. As well as he had Mike Reedy there building the motors on the spot too.
This is a money is no object contest. You need to read the rules again. There are lots of avenues for cost controlled racing. This is not one of them. Nobody outside of R/C cares who won what race but to show the true potential of "toy cars" is what this is really about I think.
I think this contest is a big deal. There are hundreds of roar,state,national and world champions
but there will be one fastest overall world record holder. Again this contest is not being forced on anyone. I only wish that it was possible for me to participate, but its just not in the cards. But that doesn't mean that they should change the rules so I can.

Randy

[born2rc]

I also agree that you shouldn't have deck out thousands of dollars for this.

[REVOman]

Buy Out for $1500??? LMAO, man, its near GUARANTEED that there's gonna be quite a few people who enter this, where that $1500 wont even kover the kost of the 1st wk of konseption in the project, let alone the overall kost of the projekt, inkluding parts, supplies, man hours, etc... BAD IDEA

[Craps]

Let's hurry up and change the rules allowing 1/5th, 1/4th, 1/3rd and even 1/2 scale. It doesn't matter as long as it is remote controlled. We can go buy a Super karts with 6 speed tranny's and the 250cc Rotax engines that can crank out betwen 120 to 150 hp that without the Super karts driver weight will weigh in around 150lbs and who knows the top speed of it that can easly run over 170 mph on the back straight at Daytona with a driver weighing it down. Take the driver out with improved aerodynamics and and alot less weight, who knows where the limit is.

See how ridiculious this all sounds!!!!

Leave the 24" length rule alone and if you do change the length rule just modify it a little to allow for a little more aerodynamic shapes in the 1/8th scale range to maybe around 26" to 30".

[patcook]

I agree with Craps. Just leave it the rules the way they are, and stop complaining. although those rotax engines can only really crank out about 50 horses or so, that will still be way to fast to be safe. I've heard of a 250cc kart topping out at about 120, so just imagine what one of these engines could do in a go kart.

if it has to be increased to 1/5 scale just make a rule that limits engine size to like 70cc or less, as there are also some 85cc kart engines that will still put out about 20 horses. Those are the 2 safest options. That would be what I think. Otherwise there would be a team that had an really good driver, and some of the best kart engine tuners with a 1/5 scale that would put everything else to shame, and then blow to pieces after the speedtrap when i thit a corner. Yeah, so just think about it a little, those little kart engines have just as much potential as the bigger ones, and also remember that most are now water cooled, so a smaller engine would work better simply by virtue of a smaller radiator and therefore a lower cg.

[Craps]

I think they should still keep the rules simple with the wheel driven powerplants and the overall length measurement. Leave the powerplant size and type open for some engineering imaginations to help improve RC vehicles in the future.

There is some very smart people that have RCs and with the right incentives, maybe we kind find out what is really out there that can improve RCs into the future.

[CENthasizer]

Going back to the inital question in this thread, what kind of cockpit are we talking about? if i am building my car to be areodynamic, then having to stick some kind of cockpit on it will mess things up. I dont know if anyone here has gone to the "which will win, nitro or electric and how fast" thread, but if you see half way down PeterV, shows a pic of a carbon fiber body. that is the kind of design i want, sleek and aerodynamic. But there is no windows or anything like that so does this count or not?

Let me know

[born2rc]

Maybe it means that it has to have windows. That way it can't just be a dart. Truck bodies for instance, they have the windows in where the cab would be but there is no spot for the driver to sit. In buggies they have a similar design. So I think what the rule means is that from the outside it has to look like someone might possibly be able to fit in it and drive.


Plus, these are radio controlled cars not radio controlled motors hooked to wheels.

[Mike Keeney]

I like the rules as well, but I would be amenable to opening up the total length. Perhaps make an 'unlimited' class? I would like to bring a dragster, but my engine alone will easily eat up over 1 foot, possibly a foot and a half.

Cheers,
Mike

[MAXXKILLER]

What if I used a thrust engine to spin a fan that was attached to the axle? Would that be legal because technically it's driving the wheels.

[CENthasizer]

MAN! u stole my idea! I was thinking the same thing, isolate the thrust to a fan right on the axle.... although i had no intention of spending the money and time on that, but i thought of that too.
Good question, is it legal?

[cianhanrahan]

Sorry for wandering O/T, but wouldn't you new some serious clutch/gearing equipment? A fan would be way faster that needed, and could work though it probably couldn't pull from a standing start. I imagine you would probably need a regular motor to get up to speed before letting the fan kick in ?

</offtopix>

[MAXXKILLER]

I'll build a thrust powered car for my engineering class when it starts in August. I'll do it fairly cheap and it will fly I bet.

[StevePond]

It must be direct drive, e.g. turbine engine connected to a transmission, etc. It's a cool idea, but it's still thrust powered. ;)

[MAXXKILLER]

Why can't say a model rocket engine go to a fan enclosed in a case that is connected to a drive shaft that spins the wheels be used? It'd basically make a turbine engine.

[StevePond]

Because it's still a thrust-powered car. ;)

[Mac The Knife]

Because it's still a thrust-powered car. ;)

I disagree. With the fan enclosed in a case, and the fan connected to the wheels, He is building a turbine, albeit a solid fuel powered turbine. The rocket engine is acting as the combustin chamber, and nozzle.

However, Rule #6 states " The vehicle must remain operable after its speed runs. Sacrificial motors or power systems that are inoperable after a run are not permitted."

So that should take care of the rocket engine issue.

[masshybrid]

Kids, attempting to build a 150 mph rc car, on their allowance,,,,,,, Scary.
Not if your a 30 year old kid. :D

[Mike Keeney]

Steve,

It looks as if there will be several serious entries for this contest. Because of this, I think there needs to be a final resolution regarding the rules as quickly as possible. Any car with a chance of being competitive at this event will almost certainly be a hybrid. I doubt the ultimate winner will be a car with off the shelf parts.

I am concerned about fairness though. I want the contest to be as fair as possible. I also would like everyone to be able to compete. It's not fair for a contestant with limited resources to have to compete against well funded teams using technology that isn't on the market yet. I don't want some kid who has worked his or her butt off to put a car together they think has a shot at winning to get here and find out their car doesn't have a chance against the big teams.

However, the big teams are certainly going to be the big draw, so it would be foolish to cut them out of the program. I think the only fair thing to do is to have separate "classes" for the various levels of cars. To this end, I would propose that an "Unlimited" class be formed. This will accomplish many things. First, it would give everyone a fair shot at competing against comparable equipment. Second, like so many racing events, the spectators are enamored with the big boys. An unlimited class would be exciting for everyone. Third, The pursuit of the world record does not have to be at a sanctioned event. Well funded teams could easily go after a record speed run anytime they want. All they have to do is set up a time and place, timing equipment, and have someone there to certify the results. All that is lacking is the exposure and publicity of an open and public event such as this contest.

An unlimited class would still need to have rules, but I think they should be more about safety than anything else. But I do think an unlimited class should still be wheel powered. I am concerned about current overall length limit. The fastest cars will almost certainly be the biggest cars. Even if you extend the length to three feet there will still be problems. This is something that should be discussed. As I said before, any true record contender will be a hybrid. This means that design, manufacturing and testing will be hard to do in 12 months.

I'd sure like to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

Cheers,
Mike

[racerrandy]

Each vehicle will be given three attempts to make its fastest run through an electronic speed trap. The vehicle with the absolute highest peak speed will be declared the overall winner, and separate awards will be given to the fastest vehicles in the Manufacturer, Independent and Individual classes.

Special awards will also be given for “Most Innovative Design,” “Fastest-Looking”, “Fastest Production Car” (for vehicles that are still recognizable as production-based cars and trucks), “Fastest Engine-Powered Car” and “Fastest Electric Car.” We may also make up some awards at the event, based on the type of vehicle that show up (Fastest Monster Truck? Fastest Motorcycle? Surprise us!). It’s a top-speed contest, but we’ll also reward creativity and originality; we don’t want every car to be a rail with 20 cells.

Just how many classes do you want. This is not some club race. You can't make a class for everybody. Looks like there is already something for everybody.

I really want to race with the nascar crowd, maybe they can change the rules so I can race my beater camaro with them.

Looks like to me the reason they chose 24" is to help keep it safe. the bigger the size the more motor,batts,engine or whatever is going to get put in it and get heavier and heavier. And I think it better represents what the majority of r/c cars are out there.

Its just to bad that rc car action is doing this and everybody is just bagging on them.
My 2 cents, Randy.

[Mike Keeney]

I think you've misread my intent. I'm just hoping for everyone to be able to compete and have fun. But it will be a bit difficult for some 14 year old kid to field a car against well funded manufacturer teams. I have no idea what people will bring, but I know I'm going to do. I'm going to design a completely new engine using a cutting edge CAD program, I'll be making it on my CNC mill. If I blow the motor up I'll just put in a spare. I'm the first to admit that that isn't fair to people that don't have the same resources.

Now if I was the only one dumping thousands of dollars into a car just to make sure I 'win', I'd say the answer to the fairness question would be easy, just don't let me compete. But I'm not the only one that's going to bring a top contender that's out of reach to most everyone else.

I'm saying there is a way to be fair, and that's come up with classes. If we don't, then how do you expect there will be a 2006 event? Would you fly from across the country to an event you couldn't possibly compete in? Probably not.

You made the comment about NASCAR changing the rules just to let you race your stock Camero. I guess you don't know that NASCAR already has a class you can race in. It's called street stock, and you can find them racing at just about any hometown racetrack in America every weekend. The races you see on TV are a class called Grand National, (at least that's what it was called when I was in NASCAR). Minimum price for a competitive G/N team is about 10 million per year. But this is an excellent example of the point I was trying to make. How fair would it be for someone who wants to get into the fun of racing if they had to race against Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart? Why would you even want to bring your car to the track if there weren't any chance at all for you to win?

The flip side of the coin is that the G/N racers are a ton of fun to watch. They have their place and what they do really gets a lot of people charged up about racing. I think an unlimited class would have the same positive result for this event as well. I want to see it stick around for the long haul. There are two things I know for certain, I don't have any idea who will turn in the fastest speed, and I'm looking forward to defending the title or chasing it in `06. :)

Cheers,
Mike

[racerrandy]

I understand what you are saying. But this is not a endurance, or timed event where driving can overcome speed. Yes you will have to control it but pro drivers are not going to have an advantage.

The camaro thing was just a point.

I counted at least 8 awards and they said maybe more. What kind of classes do you suggest. If you start breaking it down into stock, mod, unlimited, then what stock motor. This is a WORLDS fastest event who's rules do you use. You could make 2 dozen classes and it still wouldn't mean everyone could compete. You would still have 24 entries that had the best resources. You can't even just do scales. I could build a 10th scale semi and it would be 6 feet long. I just don't see any stopping point.
thanks,Randy

[modellor]

Why not just open the rules up completely for size. Then we can fit our radio gear to full size F1 cars and do 230mph :D

[Craps]

Why not just open the rules up completely for size. Then we can fit our radio gear to full size F1 cars and do 230mph :D

Now think about this statement? 230 mph on an almost flat 1/2 mile oval track?

Right!!!

Now I think we will see why Irwindale Raceway appears to have limits on the speed due handling issues that should not be a factor for an all out speed run.

There are better choices for tracks that would take handling out of the picture for a 24" long RC car.

[Mike Keeney]

My only concern is that everyone who comes has a fair shot at something. I'm new to RC, but I've been involved in racing all my life. I'm the last person to know what classes there should be.

Regarding a full size F1 RC car, if somebody wants this record bad enough then they won't need this event to get it. But all they would get out of the title is meaningless bragging rights with no commercial value. I think it's a given that most of the top teams will be vying for some sort of title than can be exchanged for cash at local hobby shops. I don't see anything wrong with that as I clearly have the same intent as well.

So what should be done to insure fairness? Ya got me. I'm planning on entering a car that has a good shot at the title. Perhaps I'm missing the point of what this contest is all about. Sure, it's all about the world record, and no one said it's intended to be anything else. I guess I just don't want this to be a contest that's only about money.

On the other hand, I've been around racing long enough to know that sometimes the impossible does happen. Having the most money doesn't mean squat to the checkered flag. I would love it if some kid came along and grabbed the record with a car that was duct taped together with off the shelf parts. Wouldn't that be cool. :D

Mike

[modellor]

Now think about this statement? 230 mph on an almost flat 1/2 mile oval track?

Right!!!

Now I think we will see why Irwindale Raceway appears to have limits on the speed due handling issues that should not be a factor for an all out speed run.

There are better choices for tracks that would take handling out of the picture for a 24" long RC car.

Chill dude. I was only kidding. Seems like so many people complaining about the size limits (which I am all for) that it seemed fitting. Im from the other side of the big pond. Never seen or heard of Irwindale Raceway until now :) so wouldnt know what the corners are like or anything else.
All I know is I design R/C Cars now for a new company and we are wanting to enter this for a bit of fun. Dont care if there were no prizes or records to be had.

[Mike Keeney]

Now think about this statement? 230 mph on an almost flat 1/2 mile oval track?

Right!!!

Now I think we will see why Irwindale Raceway appears to have limits on the speed due handling issues that should not be a factor for an all out speed run.

There are better choices for tracks that would take handling out of the picture for a 24" long RC car.
I don't think the problem will be stopping, I think the biggest problem will be on the other end. Will there be enough room to get up to speed. I'm going to use a chute. That should slow things down enough to make the turn.

Cheers,
Mike

[Craps]

That's my point that Irwindale Raceway's low banked corners are going to make handling a big issue in an all out top speed contest where handling should not be an issue. So an RC car designed for all out straight line speed will not work at Irwindale Raceway and more than likely you will be talking about 2 totally different cars in aerodynamic, suspension, motor, drivetrain and overall design.

So I hope before somebody goes to alot of time and expense they look very strongly at where this contest is taking place considering track conditions with a big question mark on handling.

[Mike Keeney]

I too would rather see a straight track. Seems to me that a large parking lot somewhere would do just fine. It probably wouldn't cost anything either.

Mike

[Grant Tokumi]

Just want to be sure it is understood that they have already decided to separate the event into 3 teams:

Entrants will be divided into three classes: Manufacturer Team, Independent Team and Individual.

MANUFACTURER TEAM: entries fielded by RC companies will run in the Manufacturer Team class.

INDEPENDANT TEAM: if the entered vehicle is the collaboration of three or more individuals operating without the support of a manufacturer, it will run in the Independent Team class. High school shop teams, university engineering departments, RC clubs ... this is your class!

INDIVIDUAL: any vehicle entered by a single person will run in the Individual class.

[Hz-R]

I think rc car action has come up with a great idea, good on ya guys!!

An oval is perfect for this kind of contest. With a car travelling at 200km/h (125MPH) you're covering roughly 56m/s (168ft/s). A parkinglot will definately not do for that! Before you've gotten up to speed and your car is speeding by, you won't be able to see it anymore...

I think the max lenght is a good thing as well, keeps it all 'model size'.

I guess the contest is all about building the fastest car within the rule and track limits and then try beating everybody else in a high profile contest. That should be more than satifactory enough! If the world record falls, all the better!
A lot more fun anyways as fireing off your rocket on wheels alone in the desert... (which would probably be the way to get an absolute rc world record)

I'd love to enter as well, but the cost for the trip from Europe would probably be more as the cost of building the car. Maybe we should come up with a european version as well. Might just be a lack of oval-tracks around here...

Good luck to everybody who's designing/building!

Robbert

[DaFF]

I would love it if some kid came along and grabbed the record with a car that was duct taped together with off the shelf parts. Wouldn't that be cool. :D

Mike

LoL, that's my goal for life, it could be sort of me !!!

DFF

[racerrandy]

Great post Hz-R, glad to see someone else that "gets it".
Randy.

[StevePond]

To address the question by Eddie Weeks in the proper thread, I think you have a cool idea, but unless there's mechanical drive that directly drives the wheels, it's not legal. We have to draw the line somewhere, and mechanical drive is it. Like someone else said, there are tubine helis that have transmissions to drive the rotor blade. A similar arrangement would be legal for this competition.

[EddieWeeks]

This needs to be cleared up because I just purched a 1/5 scale car and
have been told that JetCat will let me borrow a small turbine.

http://jetcatusa.sitewavesonline.net/

The turbine will be turning 124,000 rpms, there is no way to but a belt
or gear on this shaft.. way to fast.. so like all full size airliner engines
I will have a power turbine. This windmill turbine witch will be welded
directly to the back of the JetCat. The power turbine will only be turning ~50,000
and will be geared down ~6:1 and will provide all power to the wheels..
Any gasses left (1-4 lbs thrust) will point strait up.

If this is not leagle let me know so I can send the 1/5 scale back..

btw.. there no difference between a turbine heli and what I am making.
both have an output shaft witch is driven by hot gasses..

Thanks for your help..

Eddie Weeks
http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/

[cool head]

i dunno eddie, your vehicle is starting to scare me! it sound more like a UFO. if it flips over, does it become a hoover craft? have you ever watched tractor pulls? every once and a while they'll bring a tractor with some god awfully large engine out of some scrapped jet. fact is, they don't do too well. i dont think a jet will provide enough torque to get you past the 100mph mark. unless you put wings on it!

[EddieWeeks]

I thought the whole idea of this challenge is to develop new technology for
the RC car market. And your right, there is a good chance this thing
will not work right, but I will have tested it over and over long before I fly to CA.

So in the sprite of the challenge, let me make something you ain't never
seen before.

I sure there will be some really scary electrics with like 4000 watts of power
going to motors the size of coke cans.. I can't wait to see those things run..

Eddie Weeks
http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/