Flying Aces Stick

[gjohnson]

I'm gearing up to build a version of the Flying Aces Stick from the May 2000 issue of the newsletter. John Stennard has a write-up on his version in the Feb 2001 issue of Electric Flight International. He's gone through four versions, has got the weight down to 50g (with two servos, unlike the original article's one servo). He scales the fuselage down somewhat, and used Depron for the rudder and elevator and in the fuselage sheeting.

(1) can anyone tell me where do you get Depron?

(2) John uses the Astro Firefly motor (with/without gearbox?). Todd Long suggests a DC5-2.4 geared 6/1 and an 8" prop. Does anyone have any other motor suggestions? It seems to me that using a motor that can work with 4 cells is a major way to keep the weight down. How about the new Kenway KR-1 at 6g? Does it have enough thrust.

(3) I'm building the airframe, but thought I'd post this before starting to spend hundreds of dollars for the lightest equipment available. I've wondered about mounting all the equipment on one balsa plate (like shown in a recent RC Microflight). Are there any serious drawbacks or pitfalls with doing this? It looks like the receiver/Esc/servos assembly could be removed and installed in any indoor model (within reason). Any thoughts?

Gordon

[frankenfoamy]

(1) can anyone tell me where do you get Depron?


A foam meat tray would be a good source for this size model

A gws motor used direct drive ($5) would be a good potential substitute. Or one of the lower ratio geared units with a 7 inch prop. ($20)

[gjohnson]

I'll get some meat trays for now. But, does anyone know where you can buy Depron in sheets?

[nolasco]

Try: www.peck-polymers.com (http://www.peck-polymers.com)


Jun Nolasco

Originally posted by gjohnson:
I'll get some meat trays for now. But, does anyone know where you can buy Depron in sheets?

[nolasco]

Where can you get the GWS motor for $5? Is that the regular or carbon-brushed version?

Also, would you happen to know the gear pitch used on the GWS gear drives?


Jun Nolasco


Originally posted by frankenfoamy:

A gws motor used direct drive ($5) would be a good potential substitute. Or one of the lower ratio geared units with a 7 inch prop. ($20)

[gjohnson]

Here's the progress so far on my Flying Aces Stick. I covered it with RA Microlite from Dave Lewis. The weight increase is reasonable. The wing weighed 5.7g before covering and 6.3g after covering. Still, I may be forced to use bare Depron for the rudder and elevator instead of the covered balsa shown here if I can't get the weight down to 50g. I may use rare earth magnets to attach the wing, but again am worried about the weight increase. I'll post more when I get closer to putting everything together. My Sky Hooks & Rigging receiver just came yesterday, so all the pieces are now in my possession.
--Gordon

http://www.rcmicroflight.com/upload/FlyingAces-1.jpg

http://www.rcmicroflight.com/upload/FlyingAces-2.jpg

[pease1]

OK, where do all of you get your scales? I haven't been able to find one that goes low enough (single grams) that doesn't cost a fortune.

Nice looking version of the stick by the way. Mine isn't covered yet, I'll post when it is. I am hoping to fly it with a GWS receiver and 2 CR-10 servos.

Al

[gjohnson]

I couldn't find any scales on the internet that were what I wanted -- many were $400 and more. So, I paid the $100 and bought the one Sky Hooks & Rigging sells. It's been a good purchase for me. Please post your pics, also details. When I get a bit further along I'll post weights for components at each step.\
--Gordon

[gjohnson]

Building continues. The wing is attached with small rare-earth magnets from Radio Shack (inspired by Allan Wright's use of them on his Canned Heat page). I'm beginning to think I'll build a second of these planes at some point, because I could do it a lot better after learning on this one. The initial motor will be the Kenway KR-1. Batteries are 5x110 mAh NiMH "double time" cells from Cloud 9. I've ordered some of the new 4x70 mAh NiMH cell packs that just showed up on WES Technik's web site to try as well. Capacity will be less, but they are lighter (2.4g per cell vs 3.6g). Since this plane is supposed to be a test bed, I'm planning to test lots of combinations.
--Gordon

http://www.rcmicroflight.com/upload/FlyingAces3.jpg

[pease1]

Looks good, I'm still trying to figure out if I can get this thing in the air with a GWS receiver, 2 pico servos and an appropriate motor/battery pack. I might be getting on the high end of the wing loading with that gear, but I just don't have the budget for the Wes servos and the Sky-Hooks receiver.

Al

[gjohnson]

One of the reasons I attached the wing with magnets is so I can scale the wing up if necessary and try an alternate wing. The magnets make swapping easy. In the Electric Flight International article about the FAS, he built a shorter wingspan wing (without polyhederial) and attached it underneath the fuselage (slightly behind the upper wing)on his first version of the plane after it proved too heavy. Both these alternatives should allow you to get the wing loading down if the all-up-weight proves to be too high. Post pictures of your progress!
--Gordon

[pease1]

As promised, here's my Flying Aces Stick. I just recently received a D.J. Aerotech "Roadkill Series" P-51D and I bought an extra motor so I now have my stick's powerplant. Looks like I'll have to cover the wing and see if it flies!

Al

http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/aew/rc/misc/DSCN0982.JPG

[gjohnson]

No further progress on the plane while I test out various motors etc. But, I did find a use for the balsa sheets I cut from the bottom side of the FAS wing ribs on my jig saw. I cut them again on the underside and had even smaller wing ribs. I hacked together a plane with a Depron tail, put a dime store plane prop and landing gear on and my son and I fly it back and forth between us in our family room. Seems like kind of a waste of RA Microlite covering, but my 3-1/2 year old enjoyed wielding the small trim sealing iron (since he always asks on the full-sized model and I tell him no). However, his rubber model resembles his Dad's FAS enough that he thinks he has one too.

By the way, Allan, I can't believe how fast you are churning out new planes. I have a question about your Lite Stick replacement model, could you post an extreme close-up photo of your servo linkage hook up? It looks like you are using piano wire with some sort of heat-shrink tubing to secure it. since I'm planning on using the carbon push rods combined with heat-shrink tubing on my FAS, I'd like to get any ideas I can from you. I'm slowly making a balsa mounting plate to hold the two WES Tech servos. I'm on about my third variation. I'll post close up photos when I have a final version.
--Gordon

http://www.rcmicroflight.com/upload/FlyingAcesRubber.jpg

[ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: gjohnson ]

[ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: gjohnson ]

[pease1]

It's carbon fiber rod with shrink wrap holding on a Z bend on the control surface end and L bends with keepers attached to the CF rod with CF Tow on the servo end. I'll upload some close up photos tomorrow.

I've been in a building frenzy the past month, it's true. I have to build a lot to keep up with what I crash in the New England springtime wind. The indoor area I can access occasionaly is having it's floor resurfaced, so I'm outdoors for at least 2 months. The models are just building up faster than I can photo them and document them on the web let alone find enough calm days to fly them! Completed this weekend is a replacement airframe for the motor from my failed conversion of the Thistle. This time I went for a "Guided Mite" with a 24" wingspan. Details tomorrow of this one too.

I just love to build stuff. Most of my 'creations' are quickie models that go from drawing board to the air in the building time I can scrape up on a weekend: 3-6 hours build time. This along with the fact that I'm mostly balsa stick-build construction (cheap materials) means I don't mind a few failures to find a true gem.

Al

[pease1]

I took a couple photos of my control rod asemblies as you asked. There are also some pictures of this method on my

Guided Mite Page (http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/aew/rc/mite/)

Oh and since you commented on my building
frenzy, if you want to see my current
collection you can check out
what's in my hangar (http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/aew/rc/misc/DSCN1022.jpg)

http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/aew/rc/misc/DSCN1018.JPG
http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/aew/rc/misc/DSCN1020.JPG

[ 05-29-2001: Message edited by: Allan Wright ]

[losiboy]

What do you guys use to cut the wood out ?

[pease1]

Just a sharp #11 (X-acto type) blade. I do stack my ribs and use a bench sander to get them all the same though. Besides that it's all X-acto and good rulers and squares/triangles to get everything accurate.

Al

[tommyboy64]

How long of a flight can you get gjohnson with your setup with the skyhooks and the kr-1? I only can get about 2 minutes.
Tom

[gjohnson]

I use a power table jig saw (about $100 at Home depot). I stack the balsa and any light ply or other wood, tape them together with masking tape, and cut out all my ribs at once. Also works well for cutting out things like Gee Bee wheel pants pieces all at once.

I sand the stacked ribs with a Great Planes hand sanding bar (aluminum with stick on sand paper). Allan, is your table sander a belt sander? Is it a hobby product, or a general woodworking type from Home Depot or equivalent?

This is Father's day weekend. The theory is that I may be able to make some progress getting this FAS finished. I'll post progress if I do.

--Gordon

[gjohnson]

Here's my first attempt at a "brick". Components according to my scale:

WES Tech "3gram" 3.4g ea w/wire/plug--6.8g
JMP HF9 ESC w/wire/plug---------------2.2g
SkyHooks&Rigging Receiver-------------2.9g
Brick balsa/Depron sandwich-----------1.2g
Foam double sided mount tape----------0.2g
_____Total weight--------------------13.3g

The only way I can see to make this lighter would be to use the WES "2.4g" servos and the SHR "Pro" receiver without JST connectors. By my estimates using the pro receiver and shorter wires would save about 2grams. I'm not that good at soldering tiny connectors, so I've gone this way for now. These WES servos are delicate. Two wires came loose on one servo that I had to solder back on. I had to solder the ESC to short out between two pins so it will work on low voltage. I dropped one servo and the motor came loose, and had to be glued back on (but now the gears don't mesh quite right, so I'll have to try again). This is probably why it's a good idea to put these things in a brick.

The brick is 1/8" Depron (cafeteria tray) sandwiched between two sheets of 1/32" balsa, with the grain going opposite directions. I cut out cavities for the two servos (because the circuit boards have components that stick out the bottom, no flat surface to mount on). Double sided tape sticks the blue plastic housing to the balsa stick beside it. Wires run through holes in the bottom balsa sheet. I used a Dremel tool to rout a small groove in the bottom balsa sheet for the wires to run through (covered over with scotch tape) and then up and around to the receiver. Receiver and ESC are mounted with 3M double sided foam mounting tape.

I made an identical version using 1/8 balsa for the middle of the sandwich, but it weighted 1g more.

If anyone has any other ideas or suggestions, I'd like to know them. I'm figuring this "brick" stuff out as I go along. FMA direct is supposed to be working on one, but it is probably quite some time before we will be able to buy any. So, for now, building your own is the only game in town.

--Gordon


http://www.rcmicroflight.com/upload/Brick1.jpg

[ 06-17-2001: Message edited by: gjohnson ]

[pease1]

Sorry Gordon, I missed your post. My sander is a bench sander with a 2" vertical belt and a 4" disc, both with tables that have tool slides in them. It cost $100 at Sears. I bought it primarilly for doing ribs. It's a little coarse, I do the finish sanding by hand with a sanding block. If I had it to do over again I'd buy the Delta bench sander that Micro-Mark sells made specificly for hobby work. It has a 4" disc and a 1" belt.

Al

[flyingbuddy]

Gordon, I concur with the weights you measured. The JMP HF-9 is 0.2g less without the heatshrink on it (gee!) Toddsmodels has the WES LS-3.0 servos on sale for $50. He said he bought a bunch of 'em. The way you have yours oriented on the brick appears as though you will have to mount the push rod s across the receiver. I don't think that I can have the push rod go out the spur gear end of the servo.
Three tips: 1. If your soldering iron is too big for very small jobs, take a piece of 20AWG (or so) solid copper wire and wrap it around the tip of the iron to make a small extension, or just buy a 15W iron with a small tip!
2. For push rods, get the 3 jaw chuck for the Dremel, which is very handy (I rarely use the collets anymore.) Cut a 1" piece of 0.015" or 0.020" music wire and use this as the drill bit in your Dremel for making the correct size holes for push rod ends. Do this for servo ears as well as control horns.
3. Now, these hair-thin push rods don't push too well. They need support to keep from flexing. For years, I've been using quarter inch segments of one-sixteenth inch heatshrink tubing, pre-shrunk, every 3" to 6" for support. 0.015"= 2"-4", 0.020"= 3"-7" between supports. An easier alternative is the coffee stirrer that has two tubes siamesed together. One type's tubes are very small. Caution, when gluing, remove the rod if you can or it may get stuck. It happened to me inside of a fuselage. Big problem!
I will post a note with wire weights.
Start thinking light (really light) and light materials begin to be noticed!
Good luck.

[gjohnson]

John, wow, great tips. Oops about mounting the servos backwards. I had an earlier version that held only the servos (the receiver and ESC were to be mounted elsewhere). I had the servos mounted the other way around, with the gears hanging off the end of the mounting plate (since they stick down below the circuit board). In this version I completely forgot about it. I've turned them around and routed small depressions with my Dremel to allow clearance for the gear.

Your other ideas are good. The FAS plans call for supports/guides for the carbon fiber push rods, but that's next. Your suggestions are much more detailed than given in the original article.

I should have mentioned it above, but the weight for the HF9 ESC is without the shrink tubing, but AFTER i soldered on a male JST connector. Sorry, that component is not as delivered in terms of its weight. I have the connector so I can easily swap motors.

Thanks.

--Gordon

[ 06-18-2001: Message edited by: gjohnson ]

[gjohnson]

My Flying Aces Stick is finally completed, after being ignored while I flew outdoors all Summer. The all-up weight with the Astro Firefly motor and 4x120 NiMH batteries is 66g. With a Kenway KR-1 the weight is 60g. More pictures can be found on my web site http://people.ne.mediaone.net/gordonjohnson/. When I get time I'll post a complete breakdown of the weights of the various components of the plane. I'm sure I'll build a Mark II version to try to get the weight down further. Hmm, Depron...

Gordon

[Dave Robelen]

Very pretty Gordon.
FWIW I have been flying up to 50 gram models with a low voltage N20 geared 4.2-1 (Kenway) with good results. Four ni-cds do the trick, but you will need a low voltage ESC. Mine came from Bob Selman Designs. Another budget option is the Roadkill power unit mentioned earlier. I use 6 ni-cds and am flying a 75 gram scale model very cofortably. These N20 based systems have a lot to offer in the light stuff.
Regards, Dave Robelen

[gjohnson]

Thanks for that info Dave. I'm using a JMP HF9 ESC, with the low voltage cutoff dissabled. I wanted the option to use coreless motors like the Firefly or DC5-2.4. So, I had to go for the more expensive ESC. My sense is the Kenway KR-1 will do fine in this plane, but is noisy. The Firefly, on the other hand, is virtually silent. Somehow that appeals to me, but comes at the expense of 6g.

Regards, Gordon