Vintage 1/12 forum

[YR4Dude]

Hi,

I didn't see a thread on this so I thought I would start one. Some of you will say go to the 1/12 forum but that is for all 1/12 in general. This is for all the oldies but goodies. So post here if you have:

Kyosho
Kawada
AYK
Tamiya
ABC
Delta
TRC
MRP
Old Assoc before RC12L
Anything before re-active caster.

Just a little about my collection; I have mostly Kyosho 1/12s (Plazma, Fantom, Axis EX), I also have AYK (Cyclone), and I recently picked up a Hirobo (Ashura). I'm mostly interested in the 4WD types (Not Minis)

So I hope to hear from some of you guys soon. I you guys are out there because I've bidded against many of you on E-bay for vintage parts. :D

[FIA]

What about the nissan GT-1 .049? I forgot who built the car, Cox?

It was sweet! I wish I baught one, only $120!

[relayer]

Yr4 Dude-

I hate you!!! Just kidding ;) I've been trying to find a Hirobo Ashura for what seems like forever! You don't want to sell it do you? Just name your price :D

Good to see you've got the Kyosho 1/12th, do you have the 4wd Fantom or the normal version? AYK made a 4wd 1/12 too but I can't remember the name.

I'm a little bit obsessed with getting those 4wd cars, I don't understand why they stopped developing them, with todays cells and motors, having 4wd would be an advantage.

Post some pics if you can :)

[toyman64]

Got my first kit back in 1983, but not the first R/C I've ever had. The very ''RARE'' 1978 Otaki Corvette Stingray, still runs good today with original 380 motor and wiper speed control, but not the original tires and rims. :D

[toyman64]

Load'em up... Sorry, I know the King Haulers not 1/12 vintage but it's a cool pic. :D

[toyman64]

The Corvette chassis.

[sidemotion]

Hey guys...

Do you remember that 1/12th scale awd car that Kawada build back in 98/99? It was fully decked out with bearings, front and rear ball diffs, etc. Damn that thing was hot back then...

What was that car called?

[relayer]

I didn't know that Kawada were still making 4wds as late as 99!

I found a picture of one of their really old 4wds, the Wolf, I wonder how old it is:

[YR4Dude]

Wow!!! Its great to hear from all of you!
toyman - Great pics!!

sidemotion - You're right Kawada did have a 4wd car back in '99. Its an updated version of the Wolf that relayer has a pic of. I remember it was on sale at Tower for $160.

relayer - I am an avid collector of Kyosho 1/12s I have both the Plazma and the Fantom. Depending on my budget I would pick up a few on E-bay. I just recently lost an auction on an Ashura just weeks ago on Ebay. It sold for $152. Anyways, no I am not interested in selling my Ashura, and if you found out how much I paid for it plus all the extra Kyosho goodies it came with, you would hate me even more!

Anyways, I'll try to post some pics of my collection but if any of you out there have some please post some as well. I know there are a lot of you guys out there who have an interest in vintage 1/12's so lets talk. I only know you by your E-bay names; Warspeedbatteries, clinehobbies, just to name a few.

[relayer]

Wow!!! Its great to hear from all of you!
I just recently lost an auction on an Ashura just weeks ago on Ebay. It sold for $152. Anyways, no I am not interested in selling my Ashura, and if you found out how much I paid for it plus all the extra Kyosho goodies it came with, you would hate me even more!

I was going to bid on that same auction, I wouldv'e payed almost anything for that Ashura, but i woke up late and it had just finished :(

Even more annoying was the fact that the winner was barrypops, who is a member of the Vintage Tamiya club - he has the best collection of rare NIB r/c cars you'll ever see, and he always seems to beat me (and others) in the auctions - every rare car that I want, well he's got it, and usually more than one :eek:

I have to hold off buying any more rare cars until my house is built and I've bought the stuff I need for racing, but after that.... I'm going shopping :D

[YR4Dude]

relayer - just keep searching, you might get lucky one day. I might compete with you on the next one or I may just let it go. Its time for me to keep the wife happy. Lately, I've spent a little too much on nitro stuff and parts for my KX's and TF4s.

As soon as I have a chance, I'll try to post a pic of my Kyosho Axis EX. So far there hasn't been much talk about this full option1/12 from Kyosho. If any of you out there have one, post a pic or talk about it. Also, plenty of you out there have Kawada 1/12 2wd, please come forward and post here.

Question for those with Kawada's - is the diff and axle running on a metric size bearing or does it use standard Assoc. sized axles? If it is metric, does anyone know where I can get Kawada 1/12 parts?

I am trying to convert one of my Plazmas to a ball diff. It uses a 5mm axle. Has anyone done this? Does anyone know it this is possible to do and still keep the original Kyosho wheel?

[relayer]

Have you tried using tamiya diff parts/axle to convert the plazma. The old tamiya F1's, pan cars etc used 5mm axles, so it may be possible to use the parts from one of their F1's. The only problems I could see is that the axles might be too wide for a 1/12th and the wheel mounting system mightn't be the same.

I was just thinking of another very rare 1/12 called the Cosmic. it came out in the mid-late 80's and was made by Mugen (yes they made 1/12 circuit and 1/10 buggies long before gas cars ;) )

I remember it because they did really well in here in Australia for a while and they came out with a little monoshock front end kit, plus it was quite a unique design with a sort of box monocoque chassis.

[relayer]

Here's the kit:

[YR4Dude]

Wow, I've never seen that one before. Is that yours or is it a pic you snatched off the net? I think you might be holding back on us, relayer.

Anyways, I've considered the F1's diff before. The problem with it is that the diff thrust bearing assembly is inside the wheel. So when you disassemble the wheel you disassemble the diff. What I was hoping for is for a thrust bearing assembly to be inside the hub so that changing wheels would not change your diff setting. Assoc has it on their newer 1/12s except they are not metric. Just wondering if Kawada has a hub like that in metric?

LATE BREAKING NEWS!!!
The Hirobo Ashura that got snapped up by barrypops a few weeks back.... fell through. Its been relisted and this time at a higher starting bid with a Buy-It-Now of $250. The seller said that barrypops didn't come through on the payment

Also,theres another Kyosho Fantom out for auction from Germany. It is in mint condition with an original body. So far, I have tried to bid for it but there is some fierce competition.

If it wasn't for my addiction to gas cars, I probably would consider the Hirobo.

[minijosh]

I'm the proud owner of an AYK Bun Bun Racer. It's a full 1/12 scale F1 style car. They come with funky stickers that are close to the real ones but I guess they didn't get permission to make them full so instead of seeing Camel, it's Carmel. I'll post photos if you want to see.

[relayer]

Yep, I've seen that Ashura but I'm a bit worried if it really is unused, hard to tell from the pictures.

That picture of the Mugen I got from the net - if you have a look at the Japanese Yahoo auctions, there are so many rare cars there it's amazing - so if I find one I like I'll grab the picture (helps me to remember what i want ;) )

Hey minijosh! Are you the same minijosh on the Tamiya club forums? If so, I'm Bender on there. Still haven't found that other Nikko Brat conversion :(

[sundevil67]

If anyone has a Kyosho Plazma (Any Series) or Fantom 4WD for sale, please let me know. I have a Kyosho Ultima Pro (NIB), Optima Pro (NIB), or a lightly used Turbo Mid SE that I would be willing to trade for - or name a cash price. Thanks.

sundevil67

[toyman64]

Back in the mid 80's my brother-in-law gave me his 1/12 Delta with Kraft radio gear, Novak 4 speed control, full bearings, graphite chassis and shaft. He said he won alot of regionals with it in 4 cell stock motor, I believe it, it's fast and handles like a dream. :D

[relayer]

toyman, how about posting some pics without the body?

Delta made great 1/12 and 1/8 scalers. If I remember rightly Art Carbonell won the 81 world champs in 1/8th scale with a Delta, then won the first 1/12 scale worlds the following year as well. Wonder what happened to them?

[toyman64]

I've been try'in, but not get'in through. eversence they upgraded i've had noth'in but problems, I got lucky with the last pic. I'll keep try'in :confused:Still can't upload :mad:

[minijosh]

Hey Bender, you tracked me down to here lol. I still haven't found those bits either. I'm going to post photos of my Bun Bun racer here just so you guys can have a laugh.

[thekernal]

I have a AYK Race Prep Parsec. Is that thing worth anything?

[LEMMEDRIVEIT!!]

Don't know if this has anything to do with this, But My friends dad just gave me a few months ago the first 1/12 RWD corally made, i think that its the Corrally GPm or sp12, not sure, those names just popped into my head. If anybody coudl shed any info on this, that would be great.

[Cosmo]

I had a bunch of Jerobee cars at one time. Wish I had held onto them....

[kyoshofan]

If anyone has a Kyosho Plazma (Any Series) or Fantom 4WD for sale, please let me know. I have a Kyosho Ultima Pro (NIB), Optima Pro (NIB), or a lightly used Turbo Mid SE that I would be willing to trade for - or name a cash price. Thanks.

sundevil67
How much for the optima pro ? email me at johnkang@telus.net

[NotWalkinBlind]

I'm the proud owner of an AYK Bun Bun Racer. It's a full 1/12 scale F1 style car. They come with funky stickers that are close to the real ones but I guess they didn't get permission to make them full so instead of seeing Camel, it's Carmel. I'll post photos if you want to see.Please do... I wanna see "Carmel" stickers.
:D
I have a coupla Bolinks that were my introduction to R/C... I enjoyed the hobby so much... loved racing those things. I was never really good, but had a lot of fun and won a few races... won the amateur division of a series our local club held. This was before ESC's. LOL.

[minijosh]

But then I'll have to build it up. I'd love to but it's NIB!!!!

[NotWalkinBlind]

But then I'll have to build it up. I'd love to but it's NIB!!!!Ahhh... do you plan to build it up some day?

Can you post pix of the box and/or contents? The decal sheet?

[aqua2004]

hi guys, I have (all NIB unbuilt/painted) 2 x rc12e(ferrari and lola), I x graupner FWD renault, 2x cambrian FWD( saab 900 and a saloon), 1x AYK porsche, 1x electricar stock car and also an electricar porsche which has been raced but is immaculate. there is also a selection of tyres, painted and unpainted bodies from the likes of parma, bolink and associated ( all new and unused) Schumacher and AMPS diffs/wheels with slip on tyres. these all belonged to a guy who recently passed away, I am going to sell these and am looking for best ideas of values/ ideas for disposal. I also got some NIB tamiya buggies which I have on Ebay, would this be the best place to sell the 1/12 th stuff as well and under which listing ?

[YR4Dude]

This is not the place to place a listing for any items for sale. There is another forum that allows for posting a rc items for sale. Please check the forum menu and rules regarding your posts.

You can mention here that you have items for sale and to go look at your listing in the for sale/ trade forum.

[aqua2004]

This is not the place to place a listing for any items for sale. There is another forum that allows for posting a rc items for sale. Please check the forum menu and rules regarding your posts.

You can mention here that you have items for sale and to go look at your listing in the for sale/ trade forum.
Sorry , I have listed in the for sale now

[GT Freak]

anyone remember this old 12th scale...mrc's sp3...well im about to get one ..... :D

[minijosh]

I had one and I traded if off for my FM radio from KO. Good trade if I do say so. I never ran my SP3 but it looked like it would fly.

[GT Freak]

Called MRC and they still have all the parts for the car.... :)

[NotWalkinBlind]

I'm the proud owner of an AYK Bun Bun Racer. It's a full 1/12 scale F1 style car. They come with funky stickers that are close to the real ones but I guess they didn't get permission to make them full so instead of seeing Camel, it's Carmel. I'll post photos if you want to see.OK, can you post the photos now? I think we're ready.
:D

[minijosh]

Hey guys, here is a old picture of the decals.

[garetjax]

I have a Battery operated Dynatron Radio-Control Racer. 15" long. "7" functions, full left & full right, forward, reverse. 2 Channel radio, 2 speeds. Circa 1973 - very advanced for it's time in MINT condition and I am trying to figure out if the car is actually worth something or not as I may be posting it for sale...Was wondering if you (enthusiasts) of this niche may be able to assist me.

Unfortunately, I have found no place that actually has a list price or auction price for the vehicle.

[Akura2]

I know this thread is kinda old... but can anyone tell me what car THIS is:


it was given to me by a friend of mine about 4 years ago to see if I could do anything with it... I'm a collector so I took him up on it

[minijosh]

Wow what is that? I've never seen an all wheel drive 1/12 vintage before. I might be new at the 1/12 stuff but that looks kind of Kyosho like because of the chain.

[YR4Dude]

I know this thread is kinda old... but can anyone tell me what car THIS is:


it was given to me by a friend of mine about 4 years ago to see if I could do anything with it... I'm a collector so I took him up on it

You're a collector and you don't know what that car is???? :confused:

Sell it to me!! :D I know what it is. I already have one or two, would like a third. Got parts?? :rolleyes: I do.

As for 4wd 1/12, there were many back in the day. Most were like the one shown with chain drive (Kyosho, AYK, Kawada). There was also a belt drive one (Hirobo). They all worked like 1/8 pan cars. One way in front with solid axle or gear diff in rear.

[YR4Dude]

BTW, Akura, the car you have is a Kyosho Fantom EP MkII. There was another version of that prior to the one you have but the chassis is completely different despite similarities in drivetrain.

[Sompa64]

Hi Guys grettings from a frozen Sweden.
Im looking for picture of rear suspension on a Kyosho R951 or better a copy off the manual.

[relayer]

Have you guys ever wondered why no-one has continued development of the 4wd 1/12th car?

I remember when most of those 4wd's were released, 6 cell was still used in most places around the world - and making 8 minutes with the 4wds with those old cells was rather difficult!

I also remember seeing them dominate on slippery asphalt tracks.

I suppose the switch to primarily carpet-orientated racing mean't than 4wd wasn't required.

I was thinking with todays 4 cell 1/12 using such hig voltage cells and low turn motors, having 4wd could still be an advantage, and allow drivers to race them on not-so-perfect surfaces.

[nassosaxisex]

Hi,

I didn't see a thread on this so I thought I would start one. Some of you will say go to the 1/12 forum but that is for all 1/12 in general. This is for all the oldies but goodies. So post here if you have:

Kyosho
Kawada
AYK
Tamiya
ABC
Delta
TRC
MRP
Old Assoc before RC12L
Anything before re-active caster.

Just a little about my collection; I have mostly Kyosho 1/12s (Plazma, Fantom, Axis EX), I also have AYK (Cyclone), and I recently picked up a Hirobo (Ashura). I'm mostly interested in the 4WD types (Not Minis)

So I hope to hear from some of you guys soon. I you guys are out there because I've bidded against many of you on E-bay for vintage parts. :D

Hi there! nice to find you guys! I have a Kyosho Axis almost 99.9% original and is one of my beloved cars!even after years and years is still FAST,stillTURNS,and every one look at this tiny little thing that it just passed them like they're still!!!! :) poor guys with the "toy -ready to run now,throw tommorow- models"...
ps:the "HUNTER"logo is original KYOSHO logo from a kit named hunter....and was very true nick name on axis!... :wave: in race days axis was a hunter....

[nassosaxisex]

Have you guys ever wondered why no-one has continued development of the 4wd 1/12th car?

I remember when most of those 4wd's were released, 6 cell was still used in most places around the world - and making 8 minutes with the 4wds with those old cells was rather difficult!

I also remember seeing them dominate on slippery asphalt tracks.

I suppose the switch to primarily carpet-orientated racing mean't than 4wd wasn't required.

I was thinking with todays 4 cell 1/12 using such hig voltage cells and low turn motors, having 4wd could still be an advantage, and allow drivers to race them on not-so-perfect surfaces.

well these 1/12 models supposed to run on smoooth surfaces...in my country this kind of truck was joke...anyway...we race them on asphalt (kind a..)that r/c clubs race the 1/8's!!!imagine how much speed you must have on such a looong track to be competitive and not feel silly with "this little toy"and boy axis was killer! only few 1/8 gas powered formulas with expert drivers stay ahead of it.... and believe me... not so far....
modifications we have:
-12-11 triple motor
-ground effect conversion backwards that really sucks this thing down...
-6 cell scrc NiCd batteries -matched of course-,....
-metal axle front instead of the aluminum stock piece and.
-the longest caster angle possible..(as I said before that was a hel of a looooong race track)...
we manage to measuse the thing thanks to afriend cop...the speed was 120 km/h ! :eek:
and believe me...for this little monster 4wd wasn't nesessary...it just was an extra weight... :cool:

[jasrx]

i have a old bolink challanger from the mid 70`s ill take a few pics when i get time

[pablosanchez69]

Does anyone know where I can get parts for an old Kyosho Fantom EP 4wd 1/12 scale car.
I am in desperate need of the chain sprocket for the front axle, and a new set of tires.
There is no telling what else I will need once I get it on the road.

Thanks for your help.
Regards,
Paul Low

[nassosaxisex]

Does anyone know where I can get parts for an old Kyosho Fantom EP 4wd 1/12 scale car.
I am in desperate need of the chain sprocket for the front axle, and a new set of tires.
There is no telling what else I will need once I get it on the road.
Thanks for your help.
Regards,
Paul Low

Paul, (Pavlos in my language is written "Παύλος",spells pavlos) :teacher:
If you can't find it convert it! make a conversion with belt from a 4WD car and make the Fantom at last quiet and faster! If u don't like to change the original then anyone in your country who has a CNC machinery can make almost everything:from axles, gears links and any part that u can't find...!search around! :)
As for tyres yeah,is my problem too... :( some stores brind something,some others only for 1/10ths... in the 2nd case buy 4 front tyres,and make 2 for rear and trim other 2 for fronts!
have fun!! :wave:

[Funkymojo]

I've got a pretty a pretty good condition 1986 Kyosho 1/12 Plazma MkIII with a Kyosho LeMan 600E motor. Looking to trade it for a good condition Kyosho long wheel base Turbo Optima Mid or pm make an offer. We can work it out.


http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8307/plazmazg9ku2.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/616/plazmaopenxz8hd6.jpg
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7005/plazmatopca3mb2.jpg
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5945/plazmabottomrt8.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9811/plazmamotoriz1dw3.jpg

[Singapore_959]

Hi! I have and race a Kyosho Fantom in Europe. If you are a Tamiyaclub reader you may have seen my threads and photos.

Can anyone advise if Kwada hubs are the same as Kyosho ones?

How do I post up picts on this forum? I can post up some recent picts of the car at a race!

[YR4Dude]

Singapore 959 - I have both the Kyosho and the Kawada. The Kawada hexes are smaller. I had the same thought also until I got an M300 RSX.

Funkymojo - I have an Optima Mid SE converted with Lazer suspension. But I would expect a little more than just a straight trade on a Plazma MKIII. Unless you have a Fantom, AYK Cyclone or Axis EX or an Ashura.

[Singapore_959]

Ah, so the kawada will not fit the Kyosho Fantom then. Pity.

The tamiya RM5 Porsche 956 has smaller axels, I swapped that on the offside to at least finish the last race - offset was way to short, but better than no wheel! So it sounds like the Kawada and Tamiya may v similar. Still doesn't help my 3 wheeling tho, boo!

Thanks for the info, great to be part of another active forum. Is there anywhere one can see your collection?

[YR4Dude]

All my stuff are in bins right now in various conditions. I plan on racing the Kawada soon at my local carpet track. I have a Fantom that I plan to restore with parts or convert with the Plazma Mkiii chassis because it has a better rear suspension. The Axis EX is a museum piece as I don't plan to run it ever because I don't have parts or donor cars. However I am debating on building an R951 or just leaving it mint in the box (probably not; no parts or donors). The Cyclone needs a new chassis (to be restored). And I am thinking about running the Ashura (got parts and spares).

This is all aside from the TCs I am currently maintaining and running. I'll post pics as soon as I have one restored in running condition most likely the Fantom or the Ashura. :driving:

Does anyone know were I can buy 1/12 bodies online other than the sea of Speed 8s out there? Please can we have some variety in the current offerings of 1/12 shells.

[Funkymojo]

Hi guys, my friend just got a NIB 1979 AYK Big March RX 1200...looks really nice...



http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8352/1979aykbigmarchrx1200ub6.jpg

[nassosaxisex]

wow! state of art oldies...keep it one piece please! :)

[bladeszx2]

YR4Dude,

I've been searching the net and ebay for any older "Can Am" style boddies as well. They are Very hard to come by. Try BigDaddysHobbies on ebay. He has a few older, painted, 1/12 bodies that look like old Can Am cars. I bought 4 of them. He also has 1/12 Porsche 956 bodies. I bought 3 of those and plan to make them open cockpit bodies like the version the last version to win Le MAns back in the 90s. You're a lucky man to own those great, rare, 1/12 cars I wish I had just one of them.

Just one related note I think you guys will like to hear. I'm in the slow process of building an onroad track in my backyard. One of my hopes is to hold 1/12 Endurance races with vintage cars. I've created rules to keep the speeds down, and the track is designed with gravel run off instead of walls. I don't want to bust up these rare bodies or cars.

[clinehobbies]

I am looking for a part for my kyosho fantom for the steering servo saver.. it is the later style fantom with no rear suspension and the longer radio tray... i need the plastic bushing to mount the front servo saver....I have parts to trade or allways have the paypal....you can email me williamcline@hotmail.com thanks Bill

[YR4Dude]

Is the part specific to that particular style of the Fantom? I thought the Fantom with the rear suspension (Yellow box) was the later one. If it is the same as the other style Fantoms or Plazmas, I may have one. Could you be more specific on how it looks like? Also couldn't just fashion a make-shift bushing from other plastic parts/ material?

[YR4Dude]

bladeszx2 - Bigdaddyshobbies is the EBay store for the former owners of Bolink. I believe they once made a Ferrari WSC body. So far the ones they have available were the older style Can-ams with no curves to them. I didn't see any Porsche bodies so you must have bought up the lot. Thanks for the help.

[bladeszx2]

YR4Dude

I just checked Bid Daddys Hobbies ebay store, and he still has 8 Porsche 962 shrot tails left. Find his ebay store front, and to the left you'll see "1/12 scale bodies". Click on that and you'll see the Pordche 962 body.

Glad I can help,

Bladezx2

[clinehobbies]

Is the part specific to that particular style of the Fantom? I thought the Fantom with the rear suspension (Yellow box) was the later one. If it is the same as the other style Fantoms or Plazmas, I may have one. Could you be more specific on how it looks like? Also couldn't just fashion a make-shift bushing from other plastic parts/ material?


Here is a link to a pic of my car in my tamiya club showrrom
http://tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?cid=52104&sid=2422

you can see the oval space in the front of the radio tray.

it has the longer radio tray like the plazma 3p with a servo saver

[pablosanchez69]

I have this same car, but unfortunately no spares.
I need a front chain sproket and a set of tires and wheels.
Any idea where I might source these items?
Thanks,
Paul Low

[clinehobbies]

I have the parts that you need new in bag.... email me what you need...
williamcline@hotmail.com

could you take detailed picture of the part I need on your car... that way I might be able to make one....
do you have instructions for it???

thank you
Bill

[YR4Dude]

From the picture posted by pablosanchez69, I see what you mean by the servo saver piece. I don't have that version of the Fantom but some of the parts lot that I picked up for the Fantom included some chassis parts for that car.(3P) I'll check to see if I have it.

[clinehobbies]

Thanks guys for the help. let me know what you find. I have parts to trade if you need anything.
Bill

[lil_general_lee]

I know this thread is a little old but here is a mint old bolink I picked up a while ago.

Also, tomorrow I'll post pictures of another car I have which I am trying to figure out what it is... Looks like a cross between a bolink and a Parma.

[zangonli]

Well this is an old thread but it's nice to see it is still around!

I picked up a mid 80's Delta P12 off the bay a while back, and I have finally got around to fitting it with running gear, including a period Novak combo of receiver, esc and midget servo (used to run it in my RC12 about twenty something years ago which has since disappeared.:( That orange equipment still works though! :) Now, the body shell the P12 came with appears to be a 956 le mans racer. I like the New Man livery but the Rothman's will also do. Original Tamiya decal sets for these are available on the bay, but I am wondering if there is a cheaper alternative? Thanks much,

-Farzad

[banzaitoyota]

New here, raced 1/12 on-road in SC back in the mid eighties. Does anyone have a lead on the ABC Full suspension car from that era?
John

[GRUNDIG415]

awesome cars...

[clinehobbies]

Any body ever find me that servo saver part????

[Singapore_959]

Any body ever find me that servo saver part????

Hi Bill,

I am also on TC and know you from there.
I can't make out from the thread what part you are after - or is it for another poster? -

I might be able to help you. Contact me via TC or this forum.:)

[clinehobbies]

I need the oval spacer to mount the front servo saver to the top deck.