Speed to expect from U force75 and a Hacker C40 6s with 6cell NiMh...

[D.J.]

I decided to go with a U force 75 and a Hacker C40 6s for my Losi XXX-S 4wd touring car and was told that i would be soon joining the 50mph club, is this true? The car would not be for racing just for fun and would be geared for a good mix of low end and high end power. Also someone with a bit of know how told me to go with a Novac system because of the price and my 6 cell limitation so now im not 100% sure again. there is about a $300 difference so if anyone knows how fast my Triple X would go with one of those it would be neat to know. Thanks in advance for your help. D.J.

[SpEEdyBL]

The novak will not get you to 50mph. More like 37-40 mph is a good estimate with only 6 cells.

[D.J.]

Thanks SpeedyBL so im thinking that that extra 10mph is going to cost me $30 per Mph damn....

[SpEEdyBL]

Well lets see...

If the Warrior 9918 will work with the 6s you might be in luck. The 9918 costs $200 and the 6s costs $65, and you can buy both from the same site. ( www.rc-monster.com )

Now I have a question that is related to this topic which includes the setup I just listed. First, I would like to know if the motor can handle 7 gp3300 cells in a 4wd buggy without blowing up or getting too hot. Are the rpms too close to the limit (50000 rpm)? This is not intended for running track, but mainly for speed and power on a wide open street.

[pinolelst]

Well lets see...

If the Warrior 9918 will work with the 6s you might be in luck. The 9918 costs $200 and the 6s costs $65, and you can buy both from the same site. ( www.rc-monster.com )

Now I have a question that is related to this topic which includes the setup I just listed. First, I would like to know if the motor can handle 7 gp3300 cells in a 4wd buggy without blowing up or getting too hot. Are the rpms too close to the limit (50000 rpm)? This is not intended for running track, but mainly for speed and power on a wide open street.
I think you'd be safe as those numbers are for no load rpms.I believe that Drag and inefficiencies will stop your motor from realizing it's full v/rpm potential of 48000+ rpm.

Torque might be on the low side though as a track motor but for speed runs and general showing off in the street it SHOULD be fine.Others who know better than I will correct any wrong assumptions directly ;)

[OptimaMan]

If you want to go fast with ONLY 6 or 7 cells and no more, the faster spinning motors will work better. Preferably at least 6000 rpm/volt. A C406s which is pretty fast still needs to be geared like 6:1 or 6.5:1 to get to 50 mph. (I had one so I know). You can get to that speed also by going with a Lehner 1515 5 or 6 turn. My 6 turn on 6 cells and 10:1 went 50 no problem and it did it with TONS of torque. My 5 turn is not yet tested - but that is 11,400 rpm/volt!!! I'm willing to bet I'll get 60 mph no problems. A SS5800 will only take you to mid 40's at best unless you have custom made spur and pinion gears and running on an airport runway with a tailwind. There is a huge difference in power between a SS5800 on 6 cells and a 1515 6 turn on 6 cells.

The 1515 6 turn and the C406s are very different but similar. A c406s geared like 6.5:1 has similar "feel" to the 1515 6 turn geared 10:1. I like the sound of the motor spinning at 70,000 rpm though. Sounds like a formula one racing car going by. My 5 turn on 11.1 volts will get about 100,000 rpm!!! I wonder what that's going to sound like... Free wheeling, it should hit 100 mph and 120,000 rpm!!!

[D.J.]

Holy Crap... 120.000 rpm... Thanks Optiman im looking into your motor suggestions right now.

[Craps]

120,000 rpm !!! Sounds like the potential for a busted rotor!

[D.J.]

Where do i find a 1515 6 turn motor?

[OptimaMan]

Yeah, I might bust that motor - but Lehner claims that the mechanical RPM limit is 100,000 so I will be pushing that envelop a little.. I'll post it later when I get a chance. You can get the motors at BK-Electronics. It took them almost a month and a half though. Oh, at such extrememly high RPM's, efficiencies drop and the motor get kinda hot - so it's only good for speed runs and showing up buddies.

[D.J.]

Yeah, I might bust that motor - but Lehner claims that the mechanical RPM limit is 100,000 so I will be pushing that envelop a little.. I'll post it later when I get a chance. You can get the motors at BK-Electronics. It took them almost a month and a half though. Oh, at such extrememly high RPM's, efficiencies drop and the motor get kinda hot - so it's only good for speed runs and showing up buddies.

So OptimaMan, What do you think would be a good all around motor for me? Basically i want a trouble free setup that will outlast my car if possable. I want to be able to put 4 packs through it in a day if i decide to and not just for speed runs i want to have parking lot fun with my friends also. To me it sounds like i should go with the Hacker C406s and the Uforce 75 but theres so much to choose from.

[studysession]

The lehner motors are good. I have a Lehner 5300 basic and love it. Right now I have it leant out to a friend, been running my C40-6T for bashing around.

I just bought a 9918 controller but have not soldered the connectors on yet. Will do the soldering tomorrow but won't be able to run it until later this week or next weekend. Still waiting on the motor to arrive that I am going to use with it.

I would stay away from the Novak. i have one of them too. It is good for a beginner, My son uses it in his car. He loves it, but you are lucky if you get 40MPh out of it. A lot of people claim these 50MPh and higher claims with it, but I do not believe it at all. The Novak has nothing on the Hacker and lehner motors.

[OptimaMan]

If I HAD to use only 6 cells, and I were to use it in a TC, I'd get a Hacker C40 6s. They're cheaper than the 15xx series from Lehner by about 50 bucks and they have nice buit in heatsinks - and, you don't have to worry as much about stripping the motor or cutting into the coils with a Hacker. I believe they could be had for like $150 at my LHS. A U Force 75 is great for cars - about $280 from Starluck. You'll get 50 mph, but be warned, 50mph isn't all that fun. A TC is hard to control at those speeds unless you have a really nice track like DaFF. For bashing around, I'd gear it like 10:1 and hit 40 mph. You won't be disappointed - then again, you're almost spending $450!!! Do NOT get a Feigao, Nemesis, or B50 for your XXX-S. If it's costing just a bit too much, get the Basic 5300 for 120 - this is a great motor for many purposes on 6 cells - just be careful when you mount those really weak aluminum threads.

[OptimaMan]

Oh, you do have to watch the controller - a 6s used to always thermal my 12.97 fwe (no heatsink model) during racing. For speed runs, you'll be fine. For bashing, gear carefully. Start at 10:1

[D.J.]

Oh, you do have to watch the controller - a 6s used to always thermal my 12.97 fwe (no heatsink model) during racing. For speed runs, you'll be fine. For bashing, gear carefully. Start at 10:1


Hey OptimaMan I just want to thank you for helping me so much. I have been reading your other posts and it looks like you have all the answers for someone like me getting into brushless, its nice of you to share your time with a beginner like me so i dont make a $500 mistake.

Back to my 900 questions. So there will be a heat concern with a U force and a Hack C40C6 geared for the 40mph mark or were you talking about a different controller??

Like you said gear the car twards the 40mph mark for bashing and gear fasterfor speed runs - sounds like a really good idea, I cant even imagine what one of these little cars feels like going 50mph because i just sold my stock 1/5scale FG that topped out at about 55 and it was nuts at top speed.

[ICEMAN32]

Hey Opti, I run a hacker c-406s on my XXX-s car and I use a a hacker competition controller on 6 cells...That thing is a speed demon....I know one thing you cant compare a 5300,Nemisis 6s or a novak brushless motor to the hacker. Those motors are very limited compared to the hacker c-406s... I have done numerous speed runs and speak from experience............ :)

[OptimaMan]

Iceman32 - nice to have other guys vouch for me! So, you would agree with me in that the smaller motor (400size) is actually quicker in a 1/10 touring car eh? I think the next level of performance is gained when you go with LiPos and use like 11.1 volts with your C406s... get ready to really fly! Just remember to drop a couple of teeth on your pinion when you go 11.1 volts.

D.J. I don't believe you'll have heat issues with the C406s geared for 40mph. When I had mine geared around 9:1 (18 pinion, 90 spur in my XXX-S G+) using my 12.97 (no heatsink), it did overheat at about the 4 minute mark in an indoor carpet track with foam tires. But the U-Force does have heatsinks and you did mention that most of the time is spent bashing around (bashing around usually doesn't involve CONSTANT stop and go with super sticky tires). When I dropped the pinion to a ratio of around 11:1 (15 pinion, 90 spur), I used to get 8 minutes of run time on that track with 3300's but only 35 mph top speed. The "stock" guys could barely get 5-6 minutes with fully charged 3300's and was nowhere close to speed to me.

With that motor and 6 cells, a 15/90 will give about 35 mph, 18/90 will give about 40 mph. I haven't actually measured - but something like a 25 or larger pinion should give about 50mph.

[glassdoctor]

Do you think the Hacker would also be a hands-down winner for a XXX4 off road also, compared to a Basic 5300, etc?

I kinda wanted to put a basic in my XX4 but I won't bother if it won't run hard enough. I actually think the new Reedy motor will be very god for this application, so I may wait and try one of them. 6500kv will surely keep up with the guys running 7 and 9 turn mods.

I'm stuck with 6 cells for racing so the motor has to be a hot wind, BL or brushed...

[EdmundGTP]

[QUOTE= Do NOT get a Feigao, Nemesis, or B50 for your XXX-S. [/QUOTE]


Why not?

I was considering pairing a Feiago/Nemesis 5408407s with a Schulze UF-75 in my XXX-S..

Any other opinions/advice on this combo?

[SpEEdyBL]

I was wondering why also. If you gear it high enough wouldn't have enough power?

[OptimaMan]

EdmundGTP, you can do it if you want, but I have actually ran my XXX-S with B506s and B508s and both motors pale compared to the basic 5300 in my XXX-S and the 5300 pales in comparison to the c406s. In what way does it not compare? Well, the B506s even geared correctly, takes a bit of time to "spool up" and it sucks up the amperage and is very inefficient. The B508s was poor performance (probably like a 12-14 turn brushed motor) - worked well in my MF on an indoor dirt track due to the smooth power delivery - but for 4wd touring sedans, not enough power using 6 cells. Heck, I'd even venture to say that the B508s wasn't any faster than a Novak SS5800!!!

Now, a C406s or 7s is another 90 bucks more than the Feigao 7s but if you've bought and tried as many brushless motors as I have, you'll soon realize that you don't tend to use the motors that don't work well in that application. If you can spend almost 300 bucks on a controller, why not 150 on a motor? If it's about money, you can get the basic 5300 and warrior for a tad over 200 at Starluck these days (preordering).

Glassdoctor: I believe the C40 will be the hands down winner in a XXX-4 - however, it's not to say the 5300 is any slouch! The C406s in a XXX-4 is probably going to be TOO MUCH on a dirt track (unless you want to bash and show off the massive power) - and will outpower any Reedy, Trinity, etc. 7+ turn motors. Even the 5300 will have outrageous power and possibly be very difficult to control all that power. In my Matt Francis, the 5300 was insanely powerful and impossible to drive with in the indoor dirt track so I used to use the "slow" B508s motor (which, btw, was more power than I could handle). Even with the slow motor, I would pull wheelies during races upon hard acceleration on portions of the track with good traction!!

[EdmundGTP]

Now, a C406s or 7s is another 90 bucks more than the Feigao 7s but if you've bought and tried as many brushless motors as I have, you'll soon realize that you don't tend to use the motors that don't work well in that application. If you can spend almost 300 bucks on a controller, why not 150 on a motor? If it's about money, you can get the basic 5300 and warrior for a tad over 200 at Starluck these days (preordering).



The 5300 / warrior 7018 combo at starluck is rather inticing, but Im curious about the ease of use and reliability of the warrior when compared to the UF-75 (which seems to be very highly regarded on these boards)

Additionally, is the 7018 really a good enough controller to run the 5300 reliably and effectively? or would the 9918 be more appropriate since it can handle up to 99 amps compared to the 70 amps of the 7018?


Heres another question thats kind of off topic. Ive heard a lot of talk about how the brushless motor setups tend to cause significant amounts of glitching with cheaper FM, and or AM recievers. Is there any way to somehow shield the motor and controller to precent this interference and/or are there any tricks to help minimize it when setting up the chassis and components?

[OptimaMan]

Glitching? I believe there is LESS glitching with brushless. As a matter of fact, I don't remember the last time I had a radio glitch!!!! There is no electrical noise from arcing brushes anymore and everything is solid state, so definitely less glitching if you ask me.

I used to have a Lehner Micro 1895 which is the higher end "Warrior" and it still wasn't very smooth or resistant to cogging like a Schulze. If you can swing the extra 100 bucks, it definitely worth the added cost... having said that, when is Castle Creations coming out with their controller?

Usually when controllers burn out, it's user fault. Improper cooling, gearing, etc. I've NEVER fried a brushless controller and I've had the Schulze 12.97 fwe, 18.97 kwf, U Force 75, 24.89 F, Hacker Master Sport (2 of them), Micro 1895... not to mention 2 Mamba 25s, Castle Creations Phoenix 60 and 45, and of course, the Novak SS5800 system. So, what I'm getting at is that I believe a warrior 7018 could easily power the 5300 - but you have to use appropriate gearing. Even an expensive great controller will thermal with the wrong gearing.

[glassdoctor]

Optima, acutally you fried a bunch of controllers all at once, unfortunately. :(

Thanks for the advice. The 5300 sounds pretty good for my XX4, and the C40 is tempting. I can handle a lot of power, at least in a 4wd... I'm no rookie racer. ;) I can dial out excess power in radio and car adjustments if needed, and maybe even use my God-given throttle finger too. :0

For pure racing, I really think the new Reedy will be awesome though... so I might skip on the sensorless for my 1/10, for now.

I even took the Novak out of my B4 for racing, and put a *cough* brushed mod back in. Novak Cyclone and Orion V2 motor. I think it's best for me right now in order to run lap times with the fast guys.

[EdmundGTP]

thanks for the input guys.. I think im leaning towards the 5300 /7018 combo for the time being, but we'll see what the wallet's final answer is when the time comes :)

[studysession]

Cool - you will be happy with the 5300. I know I like mine.

[studysession]

Just as an FYI -
I have been running my C40-6T motor on 6 and on 10 cells. Nothing in between. This thing is crazy fast on just 6 cells. I am using an MTroniks 30amp Genesis Sport ESC - The combo is very nice. I have been using extremly tall gearing and it barely gets warm.

http://www.mtroniks.net/images/LgImages/GENSPORT2.jpg

[OptimaMan]

10 cells with the 6 turn? Wow, that's purty fast! Are you getting 80 mph? How does that MTroniks compare to the Schulze controllers?

[studysession]

I used to have a 18.61 Schulze and it blew up. I was using the MTroniks 30amp Genesis Sport ESC and the Schulze 18.61 ESC.

Not using Hacker at the time, but using same motor in a Colt10 and same gearing on 12 cells. The Schulze blew and the MTroniks held together. Because I am entering in the speed run contest I will not say what my gearing was. But lets say I doubt anyone here has ever run that tall of gearing in any car on this forum.

if they have, I would be surprised. I have made my own custom gear boxes and adaptors. I can get crazy with the gearing and really stress the products.

As for how fast not sure. Next month i am getting a radar gun. It will be end of January not the beginning. When I do, I will be posting all kinds of speed results.

Greetings from the UK!

[TheMartian]

On the Mtroniks site we see "The GENESIS SPORT ESC is capable of an average discharge rate of 35A, a peak discharge rate of 50A and a short term peak of 80A "

I am really surprised you didn't burn your ESC with a C40-6T and 10 cells!!! You said you use extremely tall gearing? If so, this ESC is an incredible bargain for the price!

[studysession]

Yeah it is a great bargain. I have been running it all summer. The only difference between the one I have and the one you buy is mine is not water proof. Because I test them, mine has the circuit boards exposed so they can be check and worked on easily by MTroniks.

Eventually I am hoping they give me one of the water proof ones. It rains a lot here and it would be nice. I have their water proof Cirrus Competition ESC for brushed motors. Supposed to be like the Novak GT7, but I think the Cirrus is better. I sold my GT7 after using this. Nice thing is it is water proof. Right now it is on my MiniT and I run my MiniT out in the rain. I would like to be able to do the same with some of my brushless stuff - that is why I want the water proof version.

I also have their 40amp plane controller that I use in one of my cars. Long as you get used to the throttle being a bit different, the plan controllers with in cars too.

[studysession]

Have to remember that the ESC is more for touring cars, not trucks. I would not put it in a truck.

I used it in my TC3 and in a Colt10. The weight of the truck will require more amps to get it going. So if you plan on truck applications, email MTroniks before getting this ESC and make sure they say if it will work or not.

[TheMartian]

Thanks for the info! I wonder if they have any resellers here in the States. Yeah I have a T4 and amp draw is definitely higher than on a Touring Car... unless I use a higher turn motor. A C40-6T is overkill for off-road racing I believe.

[studysession]

http://www.hobbypeople.net are the people who import the MTroniks products to the US. Not sure if they are carrying the brushless ESC's yet or not.