Does RWD w/ sand paddles hook up as well as if not better than AWD?

[Nightz]

I've taken my HPI NMT to the Oregon coast for some beach bashing :D I was wondering that since I'll probably give it another visit or two in the future, will sand paddles give the desired noticeable performance on something that's already AWD?

If I wanted to increase the drivetrain efficiency by removing the necessary shafts and convert it to RWD, will a RWD setup with sand paddles hook up as well as if not better than a AWD setup with regular off road tires? I never owned a RWD stadium truck/buggy so I wouldn't know this answer, let alone experimented with sand paddles.

The configurations I was pondering with was:

AWD w/ regular off road tires (experienced this)
AWD w/ sand paddles in the rear (any noticeable benefit?)
AWD w/ sand paddles on all fours (the obvious maximum traction setup, is there a drawback to this setup?)

RWD w/ sand paddles in the rear (does it hook up as good as AWD?)

FWD w/ sand paddles in the front (fun for the Honda enthusiast?)

Will the experienced please rank the aforementioned configurations from best to equal to worse and detail your experience on how each configuration performs in a straight line acceleration versus cornering grip.

[MikeWz]

Well, I've never really messed around with drive shafts or anything, but I've owned a 2wd ST and have messed around with 4wd STs as well. 4WD definitely handles better than RWD. There's much less chance for spin-outs because not only are the rear tires pushing you through the turn, but the front ones are pulling you through it, helping to keep you in line. From running a Maxx in the sand (I'm assuming the NMT would be similar), I would say that running paddles on all four tires would give you the best results at the beach. I've never noticed any drawbacks...just be prepared to clean up, as the front tires tend to throw sand under the body.
I can't really see how a 4wd truck would be anyworse than a rwd truck in a straight line. It might even be faster because your tires won't slip (and you probably won't need your slipper as loose as a rwd which would give you more power to the ground right away).
As for fwd, I can't say I've ever messed around with that. My guess would be that it's probably not as good for one reason or another considering the lack of fwd R/Cs on the market. This is simply assuming that at least one manufacturer has tried it (which I believe would be a fairly safe assumption)

[Cotharyus]

The problem with running FWD is that there's no good way to keep weight on the front end. I busted a couple of rear axles on my NMT at the track and I've always ended up basicly pulling the truck off the track rather than running it in FWD. Likewise for running the NMT in RWD. The truck is set up (weight distribution) to run in 4wd. It is *very* difficult to drive in a RWD configuration.

[MikeWz]

Also on FWD, I would assume that it would drive similarly to a full size FWD car. They have a tendancy to push out in corners during on-power steering. Ever notice how when you hit the gas the truck will "lean back". This takes weight off the front tires (which is why it's easier for the tires to turn) which means less tread on the ground....less tread means less traction.

Actually thinking about it now...wouldn't 4WD push out in turns too? The outside tires need to move faster than the inside tires...but they don't. I guess it's not so noticeable in our cars because they're smaller, so the difference in the radii isn't as drastic.

[tphss]

MikeWz, Why do you think the outside tires don't move faster? they do as a result of the differential action.

Nightz, With your car all around puddle's and AWD will have maximum traction, as well as quickest steering and most aggressive out of all the other setups, specially when pulling the throttle.

The best thing with your truck is this setup.

If you want another thing, is to fit bigger diameter puddle tires in the rear (more speed, more tyre surface, less chance of sinking), and smaller wheels that will be not only smaller but narrower, and pretty smooth thread, they will "cut" trough the sand for steering.

[MT2 owns you]

i have an MT2 (obviously its very smilar) and my front diffs broke in early august well..actually they were my rear diffs and i moved the fronts to the back. im finding it a little more difficult to drive but not as much as i expected. i too am getting paddles for sand AND snow. im not sure if the 4 proline paddles are necesary and i might only need 2 but i guess its not so bad becasue when the one pair is done then i wont have to order a new set/pair. and tell me how well it works and if you had any problems with your car afterwards at all. thanks

[cretin]

kyosho made a fwd buggy around 90-92, called the maxxum, not sure on the spelling. didn't last too long.

i have off and on considered the 4wd truck with 4 paddles just cause i think it'd be sweet. don't have a lot of beach sand here in western nc, but we do have a lot of mud. i'm actually dying to take my overly modded wild willy 2 out in the mud to see how it does. too cold now, though.

[Quinton]

I have 2 paddles for the rear of my maxx and savage. I don't want any for the front strictly because of how much junk they would throw up under the body.

I would go with your stock 4WD setup and paddles in the rear.

[MT2 owns you]

yea i was thinkin that..unforutnaly after i ordered 4 of the paddle..

[mnster]

4 paddles would be the best. There would be less drag through the sand with the tires lifting over the sand rather than pushing through it.

[cretin]

might be hard to turn.

[Nightz]

Interesting points and theories everywhere!

I too was wondering if the 4 paddle setup in all it's traction greatness would create a condition where one would require a stronger servo to hold the correct steering angle. I suspect the front paddles are really going to dig into the terrain causing more counter forces than your normal run of the mill off road tires. Would a front sand paddle be more susceptable to getting caught in a terrain 'groove' versus your standard off road tire?

So nobody out there has tried AWD w/ paddles in the Front to see if there is any push, or surprisingly maybe even more steering bite? Does anybody out there have a truck w/ 4 paddles with snow or sand around and some free time to support the cause?

We can agree that FWD w/ sand paddles up front is the least effective.

[MT2 owns you]

RCCA or sometin maybe it was a customer did a sand mini t and the back had paddles and the front had this weird tire with a single rib on the front. so i imagine itd be best to use ribbed tires on the front. now i dont kow about the four paddles i thnk it would do something to your steering.well..i guess an extra set of paddles isnt so bad..maybe..oh well i think ill be stuck withthem..ill try the 4 paddle thing and tell you how it works..around january 1st i imagine.

[cretin]

i can't imagine running ribs on the front of a 4wd

[Combatcm]

Another thing to consider, imagine how dirty you car would get with paddles in the front.

[Dill]

ribs are sand tires, ATV's use the same tires to turn in the sand. rear paddles and ribs in the front work best, and have less drag.

[punkrockracer]

You could get four paddles, and then take a dremel to the fronts leaving 1/4"-1/2" of paddle in the middle so minimal sand flung into the body, and minimal drag in turns but still giving you some front wheel traction to help pull you along also.

[LEMMEDRIVEIT!!]

That wouldn't work really because the way the paddle works it is like a strip of rubber thats connected in the back and on teh sides... if you cut away the sides the only thing holding the middle of the paddle would be the back, adn that would be worthless cause then teh rubber would just flip back onto itself and do nothing.

[MT2 owns you]

or maybe you could just trim the paddle from teh top making it a shorter paddle and if im right still working

[cretin]

uh, atvs use ribs up front on 4x4s? if you say so

[LEMMEDRIVEIT!!]

uh, atvs use ribs up front on 4x4s? if you say so

ehh.. i think that you are thinking of the slower, 4x4 all purpose ATVs. We are talking about the RWD, sport, jumping atvs, which are used int eh dunes because of the speed and agility, and they use paddles in the rear and a smooth tire with 1 rib down the middle int he front for turning.

[Figit090]

For speed, paddles in the front IMP would cause problems with flinging sand, off the line and in low-speed turning i think it would cause an insanely good turning ability, but then again so would one big rib on the front;

soo...you don't need paddles on the front for sand, for deep mud, i would say yes - just think about it, you truck won't SINK into the sand, it's going to glide over it, and all the grip from the paddles in the rear is going to be good enough, it will probably cause you to wheelie so hard the truck will flip over onto it's lid!!

Now think about the benifit of paddles on the front of a truck doing a wheelie...what good are they?? For low speed, i think they will help but if you really are hard on the throttle they won't do much.


For mud- i think paddles in the front would help,they will help to keep the front end from digging down into the mud.

[Nightz]

I guess we'll find out when either MT2 Owns You get's a chance to try out the different configuration setups or Steve Pond himself has run across this scenario?

... Hello Steve???

And what's with the concern of the front tires kicking up dirt onto the chassis? Doesn't it do that anyway when you run your AWD MT off road and start turning, drifting and performing donuts on any dirt surface with off road tires?

Do ribs in the front ALWAYS carve better than off road tires in the front? I don't think I see many AWD setups with these tires up front anywhere. Would one gain more turn in yet decrease the traction efficency of AWD?? Can you imagine what this would look like on a Maxx, Revo, Savage, LST, etc.

[Figit090]

well are you talking strictly RC? because if you see a sand runner, chances are it is used many other places, and if you don't JUST use it for sand, i can see why some people wouldn't want to blow $$$ on a set of tires that only can be used half or hardly any of the person's average bashing time, when they can just spend $$ on a normal set, do fine on the sand, while being able to go on pavement and dirt without destroying their new tires.

[TeamDemonSpeed]

i really dont see the point in having 4 paddle tires on a decently faster stadium truck,..."its not like a juggernaut or clodbuster where most of the power is converted into torque and not speed" with paddles the main downfall is traction while turning fast. the paddles run across the tire without any tread inbetween the paddles to grab traction. i have messed with paddles before (it's not a fetish or anything like that)...."or is it!" lol" i also know that if you run a 4wd with 2 different size tires somethings bound to come unwound. thats usually not good. but since you already got the tires, have fun experimenting!!!

[cretin]

isn't slinging sand or mud all over the place part of playing in the sand or mud? i mean, if i was worried about how dirty my truck was getting... wait, i don't! get a touring car if you want to stay clean.

[slat26]

well look at the dune buggies, i know they aren't 4 wheel drive but they are made for the sand

(note the tires)

[cretin]

they also use steering brakes, cause the front tires do little more than hold the front end off the ground. yeah, smoothies or ribs are great on a 2wd, but on a 4x4, you need actual tread if you want the front tires to do anything but steer.

another thing to consider, which will probably be seen as contradictory to what i just wrote, is that 4 wheeler put some mickey thompson sportsmans on all 4 corners of a flat fender jeep years ago. aired down to like 4psi, they were the best sand tires they had ever seen. and yes, sportsmans are drag racing tires. if you could come up with a tire soft enough (like a pro line dirt hawg without a foam insert), it would work as good as the paddles do, but the paddles are where it's at for high speed running.

[Nightz]

We can at least agree that ribbed tires up front will provide more corner carving traction. I'm assuming the more narrow the tires the better up until a point. Now with a narrower and smooth type tire in the front, we can deduce that the amount of 'digging' traction will be decreased more so than your regular treaded off road tires.

Now will a sand paddle in the rear make up for the loss of the available front digging traction on an AWD drivetrain? In other words, given 2 identical HPI Nitro MT's (AWD) if one has 4 off road tires and the other has ribs up front coupled with sand paddles in the rear, which one will outperform the other in a loose terrain environment??

... also the height of the roost seems to have a proportional relationships on one's fetish with sand paddles!

[Figit090]

I think the sand paddles ultimately will win for speed, and turning about the same...

My thinking - The rear tires having a tread that doesn't dig in as much won't get as much grip, and having 4wd won't make much difference if you are hard on the throttle, because the weight will shift to the back and leave the front tires probably just kind of drifting and having a minimal effect on the trucks acceleration..

If you want to just run in sand do what other sand freaks are doing and get the paddles... if it were me i'd go with 4 ribs all the way around just because that would kick up some nice roost... don't want sand in the chassis?? hah!! what do you think's going to happen when you flip??

If you're concerned about sand being thrown up into the chassis, duct-tape the body to the chassis...then you'll have a bubble impermiable to sand... but leave a hole in the front, so the motor can breathe. I think that would work.

[cretin]

sand will always find a way in. you would do better to give it a way to get back out.

my dad always ran farm implement tires on the back of his sand rails, and stock vw tires up front. the rears had grooves, i guess the opposite of ribbed tires for the sake of a quick explanation. we'd just air them down to about nothing in the sand, and kept an old freon can full of air to air them back up when it was time to head home. the key is being aired down, so the tire can flex. that's why mickey thompson sportsmans work so well in the sand.

it takes a lot of power to push a paddle. if you have the power to run them, by all means do it. nothing would be faster. but i do agree that a soft ribbed tire without an insert would work too. but not for blinding speed. but then again, maybe so.

[Figit090]

I think somebody should just try a few combinations... people obviously want to... I say just go for it, if you're dissapointed just change the setup until you get what you like, because it dosen't seem like anyone else has yet.

[cretin]

now there's an idea.

[MT2 owns you]

yea..ill eventualy try SOMETHING when my stuff uh..gets here..if its even ordered yet..i can understand my laziness but ppl in stores have to WORK to get the customers what they want or else the customers wont come back..i wonder why the store seemed so empty and out of stock..just like a store going out of business....