Ultimate 4 cell 1/12 scale open brushless set-up?

[GordonFreeman]

Hello, I've been using the Novak 4300 and 5800 brushless in a 4 cell 1/12 scale car. I'm now looking to drop some of that weight and am looking for the ultimate brushless 4 cell set-up.

I'm a bit new to this, but it seems like the best way to determine the motor needed is to look at the efficiency at your expected amp draw.

So I think these are my requirements:

1. must run on 4 cell
2. should weight less than the novak, shooting for a 4 oz motor.
3. amp range should be about 15 to 40 amps.

So far I have narrowed my selection to:

1. Hacker B40 9S
2. Hacker B40 10S
3. Aveox 27/26/1Y

I can't seem to find any good graphs of efficiency for Lehner.

So that's half of the equation, the other half is the ESC. Again it needs to weight less than the Novak and have capacity to 20-40 amps. Shooting for a 1oz ESC.

1. Castle Creations Mamba? (not enough amps?)
2. Hacker Mini Car? (not enough amps?)
3. Kontronik Smile 40-6-12?
4. LRP Sphere (way too expensive? Not available)

And my only other concern with sensorless brushless is the powerband from stopped and low speed. I've seen a few at the track and even driven a few and there is a sluggishness at low speed compared to the Novak. However they are certainly more powerful once up to mid speed.

Thoughts?

[NIC]

Hi Gordon,

Interesting project you have there.

If you are aloud to change your sub-c batteries and if the racingformat (4min, 5min, 8min) gives you the option to use less capacity-cells then one option could be to use GP2200 mAh 2/3 sub-c:s. You will loose about 80 grams. That is, if you are happy with your Novak as it is with regards to power and overall drivability and the weight between the rear wheels.

If your goal is to loose most of the weight in the rear pod you will run into esc problems (4 cells) as it is now because I wonder if the Mamba or any other 4 cell esc is up to the task of handle thoose motors in that/your car.

NIC

[starluckrc]

Haven't checked the weights, but I would say Plettenberg Indoor or Indoor II and U-Force 50. The Hacker B40 will not mount up to a motor plate with 25mm spacing, and the shaft will be too short.

[glassdoctor]

I don't know about sensorless setups on 4 cells and especially with a 1/12, unless there is hge traction. 1/12 cars need smooth throttle control, and as I understand, BL tend to have more cogging problems the lower the voltage.

Maybe the UForce would be smooth on 4 cells, but I can't say of course cause I don't have one. :)

I know it's not the lightest combo, but the SS5800 isn't a bad choice still.
Maybe you can run a smaller Aveox motor on the Novak controller. I was going to ask Novak about that anyway...

[GordonFreeman]

I have run GP2200 2/3 SC cells and just barely made 8 minutes with them! :D It does get the weight right down to legal.

There are guys with 10 doubles and 3300s that are just so much faster on the straight and they are not dumping. Alot of this depends on the track layout of course.

I might think that there is a perfect cell out there in the 2600-2800 range that would be the right weight and good amp ability.

As far as the B40 goes I can make adapter plates and probably deal with a short shaft (haha). I think the U-Force weights are 45-55 grams, which doesn't get me any better than the Novak.

So far the only way I can think to have an advantage over these conventional brushed guys is to use 3300s and go for a 10 minute race!

I have also since found some info on the Lehner motors. It looks like the lightest one is still 145 g which is about what the Novak BL motors are.

[NIC]

The U-Force 75 anyway, don´t know about the 50 though but I guess it´s the same. It will work with 4 cells as long as the packvoltage is higher then 5.3V. A newly charged pack is fully driveable but I can´t say for how long, it dependes on the cells itself how well they keep up the voltage under load. Everything works just the same as with 6 cells but when the voltage drops below 5.3V the car will shut down and then arm itself after a second. You will have full steering controll, it´s just that the car looses power. Another example is if you have charged your pack and it has been sitting for a while the voltage may have droped below 5.3V (most likely with NiMH, especially with GP3300:s) then the U-Force will not even arm itself.

NIC

[lonepalm4]

Hi all... I don't know much about the sensorless motors, but as far as the ultimate setup, I think the lrp sphere/reedy combo (i know, it expensive, but will hold it's value better then others, and it's the right size/wieght), and lipolys are the ticket. This might be too expensive or radical, but i think it will give the best performance. try running 2000 mah 2s2p kokam cells (7.4v, 4000 mah) with a 9 turn in a 1/12 scale........it's hot. this is probably over the top, but you should not get out motored (sic). even without the lipolys, i think the lrp will give the best performance with sub c cells. someone try the u-force in a 1/12 scale please..............
good luck!

[kufman]

I have tried the U-force 75 on 4 cells and it doesn't work. I wish it did because I am running a 1/12th on brushless as as well and the only thing that I own that works on 4 is the novak. The U-force is very smooth even at low speed. I have run the U-force with a basic 4200 in my 1/10th pan car on 6 cells and it is great. The novak will drain a 3300 pack in less than 8 minutes if you are not careful. I think the novak runs less efficiently on the lower voltage. Lehner may make a controller that works on 4 cells, but I don't know. Castle Creations makes the Mamba controller that work on 4 cells, but it is only good for 25 amps. They are supposed to be comming out with a higher amperage controller some day.

Unfortunately, novak controllers will not run an aveox motor since the sensor layout is completely different.

[NIC]

I think your best bet if you really want to stay with just 4 cells will be the Sphere with the Reedy/LRP Vector when it will be available. Or hope that Castle Creations new 1/10 scale car controller will work on 4 cells.

On a side note:
This hole low-voltage brushed racingformat is really stone-age now and reverse type of thinking. Tell that to your brushed friends and show up with a higher voltage and much more powerful, much lighter and longer running real brushless set-up ;) !

NIC

[GordonFreeman]

Thanks for all the input so far.

I think there is no doubt I could make the Novak faster with a 2S LiPo. I just think that is a bit outside the rules of 4 cell. I should try it thought, even just in practice to scare them all. ;) That would certainly be the easiest solution, if it were within the rules. I suppose I could try to argue with them that it is only a 2 cell! :D

[OptimaMan]

There you go - use only 4 cell lipos - just don't tell each of those guys that's 3.7 volts per cell! Use a Schulze controller and get a nice slow 2-3000 kv motor (you'll still be around 30-40,000 rpm) and then show up those guys! Use a Lehner 1515 series motor with an adapter plate (more than enough torque for 1/12 scale pan and weighs only 90 grams or so and could output 450 watts intermittently!). For the controller, I believe a U Force 50 would be fine for you or 75 for slightly lower resistance (and theoretical punch). A 14.8 volt pack at 2,000 mah will still be lighter in weight than a 4 cell GP 3300 pack too.

That would be totally insane - a 400 watt 1/12 scale! Talk about power to weight ratio - I don't believe you'll be able to keep the tires on the carpet. :)

[OptimaMan]

Even a 1020 motor should work pretty well for ultra light weight 1/12 pan cars. That motor can pump out up to 300 watts (intermittently) with the right combination of batteries and it only weighs 60 grams!!! That's barely over 2 ounces!!! Talk about reducing unsprung weight. Then, by going 14.8 volts, and low amperage, you can use 16 guage wiring so the wiring won't even effect suspension (and would weigh less). Somebody ought to try it... I've actually never tried the 1020, but I can totally vouch for the 1515 having PLENTY of power for 1/10 touring. Lighter smaller rotor will also allow you to have quicker response in such a light weight vehicle.

[studysession]

I would love to have a 12 scale pan car to play with.

Don't laugh - I have a 40amp Mtroniks air plane controller that I use in my cars sometimes. I would use it - and get the highest RPM sensorless motor that would work on only 4 cells. Some high RPM motors I have had/tested need more cells just to start.

[starluckrc]

Considering the low weight, I bet the Mamba 25 would work with some of the 400 size brushless motors. Probably weighs less than a Mini Quake.

[OptimaMan]

The Mamba 25 worked on my TC4 with 11.1 volts. If you want to use the Mamba 25 on larger vehicles (1/12 or 1/10), use high voltage, low kV, and use 400 size and not 500 size motors. Like I said, it worked on my TC4 - but ran a bit warmer than it usually does in my Mini T with the Mamba 8000. I only ran it for a minute cuz I didn't want to burn it out.

[studysession]

Using it in a 1/10 scale also voids the warranty.

[kufman]

Too bad there isnt a way to parallel two mamba's. Then you could run 50A continuous and 70 peak. This would power many motors on the market. I have often thought of buying a mamba and making my own FET board. It wouldn't be easy without schematics!!!

[GordonFreeman]

I e-mailed Castle about the Mamba and they say (to cover thier ass) that it won't work in a 1/12 scale. I think it probably would, but you might be pushing the limit of it. And putting two in parallel puts the weight back up to a Novak.

Starluck, I that is about what I'm looking at. 400-480 size with the Mamba. That might be the ticket.

[studysession]

It is not a play it safe thing - a 1/12 scale will need a controller designed for 1/10 scale not a controller designed for 1/18.

[GordonFreeman]

I don't want to be argumentative, but why would it not work? I could see it burning up eventually, but it should work. How would the controller know what kind of car it's in? A 1/12 scale weights about 28 oz. Rollout 1.7 for stock, 1.4 for mod.

[studysession]

I did some testing of my own and blew one of the mamba ESC's and melted the white wire going to the motor. From here on out I will only use it in a 1/18 scale and nothing bigger.

EDIT: for the record - I love the product and would recommend it to anyone for a 1/18 scale application. But not for anything bigger.
The only 1/18 scale that would be an exception - I would not recommend it for something the size of a TLT-1. That would require to much to push it.

[GordonFreeman]

Ah, what car? Weight? What motor? What rollout (if you remember)? Number of cells?

[studysession]

Question -
is that 28oz with electronics & body or without?

[GordonFreeman]

28oz, is the absolute minimum weight, with everything, race weight. With my Novak set-up (and GP3300s), I'm about 2oz heavy.

[studysession]

I am not willing to let out the details. It was a test project I was working on. Just after my experience, I would not go bigger than what was recommend by manufacture..

You can do what you want. But I would be surprised if it lasts very long. I only got 2 runs on my test. When i say 2 runs. Go past me once, turn around and go past me again. Try to pull the throttle after 2nd pass and smoked.

[GordonFreeman]

Oh no, you weren't trying to build a car for the RC Action Challenge with a Mamba were you? :D

My car is going to require that damn, $600 Schultze 40-160. Probably won't happen too much bling.

[studysession]

That is funny - but uhh no.

I test different electronics and kits from different manufactures. I have a bigger car that weighed less than my Micro RS4. It did not work out to well.

I have been through a few mamba's from doing stupid mistakes. It has been very costly. For RC Action Challenge i am sponsored and get ESC's and motors for it. I have RCCA covered. Just need a sponsor to give me LiPo's and a charger now.

[GordonFreeman]

Cool, that's some good info backed up. I will probably not bother trying it in a 1/12 scale then, thanks.

[studysession]

Anytime - Just sometimes can not give exact details on the products I use in my testing. So can not say which car it was. But it was nice.

I now want a 12 scale pan car to play with. No funds for another RC, so have to wait a while. Good luck!

[starluckrc]

Castle did approve it's use in the Mini Quake at 25oz with a 400 size brushless. I doubt they will warranty it in 1/12 scale. Just wanted to point out their faith in it. It does run the MQ with a Feigao 130-12L and Mega short can 400's well.

[studysession]

The MQ is 1/18 scale though. So yes they will approve it. I would say almost any 1/18 except for the TLT-1 it should be fine.

[kufman]

I e-mailed Castle about the Mamba and they say (to cover thier ass) that it won't work in a 1/12 scale. I think it probably would, but you might be pushing the limit of it. And putting two in parallel puts the weight back up to a Novak.

I think the Mamba would work but you have to do your math carefully. 3-cell lipo with a low Kv motor and you could keep the current draw down in the 20's. If you do the math I think you have to average like 18 amps on a pack of 3300's to finish an 8 min 1/12th run. the exact number is 24.75 A if you could get 3300 mAh from a 3300 pack!

[kufman]

here is my current setup. kind of heavy at 2 lbs, 2oz ready to roll.

[kufman]

the setup I wish I could run. u-force 75 and a plettenberg shadow or my lehner basic 4200. setup is about 1.5 ounces lighter than the novak

[kufman]

the 6-packs true calling if only it were legal and would drive well. I have driven this setup and it is like driving a dump truck!

[GordonFreeman]

kufman, you da man! Why can't you run the Lehner/Hacker set-up? My Novak set-up is about 30oz.

I moved the motor plate .100 to the right by putting new holes in the damper plate and the lower pod plate to balance the pod. Then I ground the chassis to move the batteries to the right to compensate for the ESC and the whole car balances perfect left to right. This is another reason I would like to find a motor and ESC that are a bit lighter, the car would come closer to balancing without all the work.

It's good to see somebody else trying to do brushless 1/12 scale also!

To dump 3300 mAh, my math is showing 33 amps full throttle for 6 minutes, which I figure is about right for an actual 8 minute race. It would be about 25 amps average for 8 minutes.

Oh, I just noticed, I have a 26 tooth on there. :D I was just screwing around, I got the free wheel speed with a seven cell with the 5800 up to 21000 RPM! 128 MPH!

[GordonFreeman]

kufman, I just notice you are using the JR synthesized receiver. Have you had glitching or interference problems? I seemed to notice some sort of nasty interaction between the Novak and the JR synthesized, especially in the 1/12 scale. With the Tx antenna down, the car would start to glitch when I would get about 5 feet away from the car! I just recently got a 3PK and the problem has gone away (cross fingers!). It could have been the radio out of tune, it had been dropped a few times.

[studysession]

Nice pics!

[kufman]

Gordon,

I can't use the Schulze because it will not run on anything under 6 cells. Thus the reason I tried 6 cells :) I haven't had any trouble with the Jr synth receiver and the novak. The only place I have had trouble is in my old XX-4 that has a molded graphite chassis. Soon I will have a mini servo and that should help my space problem. Looks like you have done more work to get your setup right. How much better does it drive with it all balanced out like that? Your car started out as a 12L3 right? If you have any glitching problems I would suggest you move the power cap away from the receiver. You may not have any problems, but I thought I would mention it. Would does laying the servo down do for handling? I thought about trying it, but I don't know what to expect. What roll out do you use. I have be right around 1.6 with the novak on a medium size, indoor carpet track. I have been thinking about going old school one weekend and trying the 6 cell setup again. I will try .022 front springs with a .075 t-plate and thicker tube lube and see if I can get the car under control.

[GordonFreeman]

My glitching seemed particularly bad in the 1/12 scale compared to a truck or sedan. I think the closeness of the Novak and reciever was part of it, maybe the graphite chassis was part of it too. But like I said, since I switched to the 3PK the problem is gone.

Rollout on the 4300 has been as high as 2.0, depending on the track. I haven't used the 5800 enough to get a feel for it, I'm guessing aproximately 2.0*4300/5800, or a bit higher. Which puts you right in the ball park. Er...I was assuming you had the 5800.

I have done alot of work to get it balanced, I think the car is much better. If I could only get rid of 2oz! I can get the car under weight using GP2200s, but they will start to dump near the end of the race. And it's still nowhere near as fast as the mod guys. Maybe I should try 6 cell GP2200s, Yeeoww!

Another guy with the Novak in his 1/12 put the ESC on the left, like me, and the receiver on the left, but puts 3 cells on the other side and 1 on the ESC side and gets the balance pretty close, but I think thats gotta put some weird tweak into the car because the rear pod is heavy to the left and the chassis is heavy to the right. While you can get the tweak out of the car sitting on the ground, when you lift the car off the pod sits off to one side. That's why I moved the motor to balance the rear pod.

It's been quite a learing curve trying to learn 1/12 scale AND implementing a brushless system! :D

It "was" a 12L3, hehe.

I just mounted the servo flat cause I didn't see the advantage, nor like the higher CG. Bump steer is non-existant where the linkage is at. At some point I should mount it regular to see if I can tell any difference.

Oh, can you use a separate 5-6 cell 150 mAh pack to power the reciever/ESC on the Schulze?

[kufman]

I tried the receiver pack and it didn't work. I contacted schulze and they said that the speed control takes it's control power from the main battery and it needs atleast 5.0V in order to operate.

Yes I do have the 5800 novak. I have considered the 4300 to see if I can keep the controller cooler in the summer time when I am just out messing around.

I am going to take my RC10L3-touring to the track this weekend and see if they will let me run in 1/12th if I agree to get no points for the day. In that car, 6 cells is easy to do (8 cells would be pretty easy too). I will run the Schulze U-Force and a lehner basic 4200 for the motor. Runtime should be a piece of cake.

[GordonFreeman]

Got schooled again today. I was dumping the 3300s right at the end of the race, about perfect. But the top guys with 10-11 doubles (or whatever) were also making the 8 minutes, one guy dumped badly before the end of the race though.

Is there some reason that I am not getting optimal efficiency from the Novak Brushless 4300 on 4 cells? I find it hard to believe a 10 double is more efficient. I know the brushed guys are not full thottle but for part of the front straight. I also know that I am probably not driving the corners as efficiently as I could. I just thought that brushless was considerable more efficient that brushed. They are better drivers than me to be sure, but it seems they could probably outright turn more laps than me in a time unlimited race. Strange.

[glassdoctor]

Use of throtte/dirving style can have a big impact on run time, efficiency, etc.

If a gearing change doesn't improve things, I don't know what to say other than the motor or driving style doesn't suit the track as well as the other guys cars?

The 4300 is more efficient than a 10 turn mod for sure. But they may be on throttle a lot less than you are. Maybe a 5300 and a light index finger is actually better.

[kufman]

I have a feeling that the novak controller isn't very efficient on 4 cells. In a sedan on 6 cells I can drive my 5800 almost all out and make 8 minutes. In my 1/12th I have to be really careful or I don't make run time. I am starting to wonder how much better a 4 or 6 pole motor would be. Many say that the segmented rotors lead to better partial throttle efficiency. If and when Castle comes out with a 1.10th scale controller, maybe that with a Plettenberg Indoor or Indoor 2 would work better.

[GordonFreeman]

On the same track with my 5800 in a sedan on 6 cells, I was taking out about 1500 mAh in 5 minutes! Things that make ya go hmmmm....

[GordonFreeman]

The Novak ESC started acting really weird yesterday. It had been crashed badly before where the heatsink side had come apart from the rest of the ESC and I sort of fixed it.

But yesterday it was acting very badly. It would seem to randomly switch from "normal" power to a very sluggish power. Also, if you lock the wheels and apply very light throttle, it would immediately kick out to a locked rotor code.

The heatsink was getting very hot very quickly. I'm thinking that something with the sensor system is screwed up and it is firing coils in the wrong timing and it is fighting itself.

I had been noticing a strange feeling throttle in the car for a month or so, I wonder if this has been part of my run time problem.

When I got home, I tried a different ESC and it seems fine now. I'm really hoping that I've been racing with a poorly operating ESC and it will be more competetive now.

Anybody got any "insider" info on that new Sphere ESC?

[GordonFreeman]

New plan on brushless 1/12, thanks for the ideas!

I'm sure a Mamba would work, because I am using a Pheonix 25 right now with a Himax 2015-4100 in a 430 gram car! Yes 430 all up. 830 mAh 7.4 Lith pack.

Runs for 20 minutes, at seemingly mod speeds (have not track tested yet) All the electronics com off cold.

Time to try a HiMax 2025-???? with a 11.1 lithium.

[GordonFreeman]

That system seemed only about like Stock 27T on the track and barely made 8 minutes.

So this is the new plan:

EDF Typhoon 3W
11.1 v twin 600 mAh packs

Hopefully to get some track time this week.

[tcolesen]

Your setup is shrinking! How much does it weigh? It looks very lightweight.

[GordonFreeman]

Actually it's slightly heavier :-(. The motor is slightly bigger, the 6 cell (600mAh) 3S2P pack weights slightly more and I added the little chipset heatsink to the Mamba. But it still comes in under 500 grams!.

[GordonFreeman]

Well, I can't believe it's been 4-5 years since I started this thread.
Been busy with the whole 1/8 brushless thing. Now we have a nice carpet track near me so guess what...wait for it...I'm gonna start this up again!

Right now I'm planning to use a:
Mamba 25 pro ESC
1600mAh 3S battery
28-35-2700 motor (28mmx35mm@2700kv)

I'm looking for mod speed now, don't care about rules. I want light, fast and cheap.

[rccardude04]

The little Mamba Pro is now a 35A I'm pretty sure. Ought to work nicely. Let us know how it goes! You ought to not have a lack of torque, that's for sure.

-Eric

[GordonFreeman]

Well I got the 28-45-2100 for it. It has tons of punch! But I burned up the 1/18 Mamba :-(.

Maybe I'll try the sidewinder.

[kufman]

Now days you could run something like the Tekin RS-Pro and get all the power you need for the 1/10th scale motors. In terms of size it isn't much bigger than the 1.18th controllers from 4 years ago :D

[GordonFreeman]

Unfortunatly even the "cheap" RS costs more than my whole set-up (batt, motor, esc). Trying to keep the cost to a minimum. I'm trying to prove that using a small brushless, high voltage batt is cheaper, lighter and faster than conventional set-ups (including the "new" standard using 1S lipo and 540 size motors.

The sidewinder is on it's way. Wish me luck!

[GordonFreeman]

Well, the 1/10 Sidewinder works flawlessly. It's a little big but it fits. It runs cool, so does the battery. The motor gets a little hot/warm. And the car is a little rocket ship!

I have a 1600mAh battery in it. But today I ran/raced it for 12 minutes straight and only put 1100 back in. So since races are only 8 minutes, I am going to get a 1250Mah 3S battery for it. That will knock a few more onces off. And a couple $.

I'll get some pics next week as I forgot the car at the racetrack.

[rccardude04]

Running LiPos farther than about 80% of rated capacity is kind of hard on the little guys.

For longevity of the packs, I'd stick with the 1600s myself.

Just re-read... I guess the normal races are about 80% of what you tested for. So you're already following the guidelines. :)

-Eric

[kufman]

I think you are onto a good idea here with you setups for 1/12. Too bad others, like ROAR, haven't seen the light. Have you ever considered a 2S A123 setup? Kind of low on mAh and high on weight, but very safe and the cells can be had for pretty cheap.

[GordonFreeman]

Yea, I think ROAR is set on the 1S/540 BL motor thing. It's lighter than Sub-C, but not as light as my set-up. Hopefully I can get the guys to go with MOD at my local track. They were wanting to do the 1S/10.5 BL motor thing, but that's practically mod.

Like you said about the A123 cells, they are not as capacity/weight efficient as regular LiPos. But I have seen people do it on RC-Tech. There is a "Future of 1/12 scale" thread where people have dicussed all of this. Basically the arguement is that 1S/Novak motors only requires 1 change, just the battery. Whatever, my whole set-up is cheaper, light and faster. So ROAR is going with the conservative change I think.

Also, they argue that if you go with 2S/540 BL motor you'll be too fast for stock speeds even using a 21.5 BL motor. The 1S gives you a better selection of motors to choose from (if you confine yourself to conventional 540 BL options).

People are afraid (or whatever) of the smaller motor set-up I think. I love it. it's lighter and it makes the rear pod balance much better that the big 540 sticking out to one side. The only thing is, I have to fabricate a plate with a few holes in it to mount the small motor.

Pics up Wednesday night I hope.

[kufman]

I kind of understand the whole wanting to use the same motor thing, but 1S is hard to make electronics for. I think it is crazy that people are using a boost converter just to power the radio and servo. Going to higher voltage and lower current has an added bonus of smaller motor wires which is nice for pan car type setups. Smaller wire doesn't tweak the rear pod as much or restrict its movement.

Stock? Who wants to run stock? lol.

What company of motor are you using? Ammo?

[GordonFreeman]

The motor is a Great Planes Ammo 28-45-2100. I Think Himaxx makes a similar motor, but is more expensive.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXLWY3&P=7

The Battery is also a Great Planes Product. I chose it mainly for fitment and price.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXWUP0&P=0

I don't like to whole booster idea either, just run 2S or 3S and be done with it.

There is also something about SMC (1S 4000 supplier) that I don't like. Not sure what it is, but I think it's kind of how I don't like Trinity either.

If we go Mod, anything goes, you can put together any combination you want.

[GordonFreeman]

The new 1250mAh battery did not come in yet. But the all up weight is 687 grams with the 1600mAh. With the 1250mAh it should be 658 grams.

Got some pics today.

My motor adapter plate is kind of cobbled but it works. And I don't have the wiring spiffed up either.

[GordonFreeman]

Well, I got the 1250mAh batt in and she totals 657grams full up. The 10.5/1S cars are about 730grams.

I also had my first race with it. Only one other guy with a 10.5/1S car. I took it handily, but he hadn't raced for a while and was not quite on game.

The fastest 13.5 Sedans were turning 10.8s and I turned a few 10.1s with my little rocket.

I'm pleased with myself :).