Touring on 6 cells

[havy]

Hi,

I'm posting this thread because although I have seen many posts about 6 cells, I haven't seen specifically talored to what I'm interested in.

I will be racing 6 cell no turn limit class, and BL is the way to go for me, I've spent a year or so reading up what you guys are doing and am soo loking forward to adding my experience but I have been patiently waiting on Castle Creations controller, given my experience w/ the mamba on my 1/18, I have high hopes for the CC 1/10th version and know they will produce nothing but the best for us. I have been getting ready though, I have a IRS TC3 and now a TC4 waiting w several 6 cell GP3300's. A 540 7t from Jamie and now a Plett Shadow on the way.

Has anybody tested these motors on 6 cells(1), compared to Brushled motors (turn wise- real word comparisons)(2), and run time on 6 cells(3)?

Also interested in knowing if you guys have tried gearing up to get more top end and how has it affected low end, run time, and motor heat wise(tolerability of motor)?

Thanks, I hope I'm not asking too much,... I will be gladly posting my results when CC's controller is available for and I get to tun my set-ups.

Havy

[havy]

I am also curious on the Plett shadow compaired to hacker C406t...

[kufman]

I run the shadow in my TC3 with a u-force 75. It can be geared pretty heavy for indoor carpet tracks, the limitation is usually my controller. geared 72/24 the shadow still has the torque to spin the tires. Top end is very fast. From my expierence the shadow will keep up with an 8 turn brushed motor. My run time was about 6 minutes indoors. The motor gets warm but not hot, 120F. The controller on the other hand, without a fan was 170F. I would suggest starting out around 72/22 in a TC3 and working from there.

Do you have the extra bracing for the IRS chassis? If not, the stock chassis will work far better for high traction surfaces.

[havy]

Thanks Kufman,

The IRS chassis does have the bracing. I also upgraded the TC4 w/ the Carbon component kit. i figuer I'll give them both a test and keep the best performer. I've held back on buying the Schultz for fear of not being able to gear up too high, I hope the 1/10 Mamba will be able to take higher amp draw. I think it should, given it will also be the same used for Monster trucks.

Again, thanks for the info, hope to give back to this forum once I get the cars rolling.

havy

[kufman]

I am also looking forward to the mamba maxx or whatever they are going to call it. I will probably get used in my offroad stuff and maybe my sedans as well. It will be nice to have a company that is in the states besides novak. don't get me wrong, schulze is a great company with great products, but shipping back and forth to Germany can be a pain.

[OptimaMan]

I had the c406s and it was pretty nice - It wasn't about keeping up with the other guys - it was more about finding a way to put the power to the ground. A pro driver drove my car around and he said that it was definitely like any 8 turn motor with more torque - it would accelerate much faster to top speed on 6 cells. I also have a Plettenberg Shadow - similar in performance, but more demanding from the controller. I actually put it up on ebay after using it for a couple of minutes. Since I don't have the limitations of cells, I'd much rather use a 12 or 16 turn C40 and run 14.8 volts instead. Much more torque and as the run goes, the power doesn't die down as much. In addition to those motors, I've got the Twist - but the twist 55 would probably be too slow for you. The Twist motors are almost identical to the C40 from Hacker.

One motor that you're missing is the Lehner 15 series. Smaller motor, lighter motor, segmented magnets, and more winds available that beyond 7000 KV if you really want to go fast. More expensive, but works just as well. I had my XXX-S G+ geared 12:1 and with 6 cells, the 1515 6 turn was still above 50 mph (spinnning out the tires all the way there). The 1515 is only a 90 gram motor so it might run a little hot for a 5 minute race. Maybe a 1520 might be a better choice for a 1/10 touring sedan. Right now, I've got the 1520 10 turn in my TC4 geared 10:1 and with 14.8 volts, I'm getting over 45 mph and I can run longer than 20 minute mains!!! Only problem with that much power and torque is that the diffs really have a hard time not breaking down. I had to go will all steel outdrives and have to rebuild the diff all the time!!!

[havy]

That's cool Optiman, I had almost forgot about the Lehner series, 1520 would be nice, but I wouldn't know where to start to look for it, haven't found websites w/ it for sale...I would love to get a lehner.

Thanks again for the info.

havy

[OptimaMan]

http://www.bk-electronics.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=35_119&sort=2a&page=2


here you go. :) You need to get an adapter plate also though. So, a 1520 with an adapter plate is kind of costly, but give you a few more options for higher KV motors.

[havy]

Thanks for the link, I'm keeping this bookmark in the comp and after seeing how the 540 7t and the shadow run, will consider Lehner if I'm not up to par w/ the guys I run against(no motor limit Brushed). I really want to get the electrics back on the mainstream down here where I live ( nitro touring has 150 entries at big meets and around 60 avg on regular meets- got a fw-05R w/ an X-12 for this category :-D ). But I know alot of people are watching what I'm up to w/ my electrics (my micro and my soon to run 1/10th). So if I can show that this is a good reliable, maintenance free option to electric racing, hopefully the class will grow! Speed will be an essential factor in the equation.

Looking forward to posting some of my findings as well,maybe in a couple more months CC will be out w/ there controller.

Been playing with the CC Mamba controller for my micro on the comp and really like the adjustibility on the controller, has adjustable throttle response and brake response curves (as well as timing, no reverse, reverse delay and no delay, timing, voltage cutoff-set or custome, and slow,norm,fast start) I keep the thottle linear but to be able to control the brake response is a big plus

thanks guys.
havy

[OptimaMan]

Don't hold your breath for the 540 7t. It'll be crap in an unlimited 6 cell class. I had both the Hacker B50 6s and 8s in my XXX-S and they definitely were the WRONG motors for a TC. Too much rotating mass. Was sluggish compared to the C40 6s and even the Basic 5300 was faster than the 8s and 6s.

[havy]

Optiman, did you get to play w/ the pinions much, too much amp draw w/ lower drive ratios? Or just too sluggish period?
I might keep it as a Drifting motor.
havy

[OptimaMan]

I did try different pinions and ratios with the 6s and 8s. The 8s was nice and smooth for off-road 2wd stadium truck use, but just too slow for on-road carpet touring car races. The 6s has high rpm, but for some reason, was very sluggish. Perhaps the 12.97 or my cheap 3300s couldn't deliver the 100+ amps that this motor probably wants during hard acceleration. Plus, the motor felt "heavy". Sluggish... My Basic 5300 was even better than the 6s. The basic motor has a smaller rotor and less rotating mass so performance was a bit quicker. The C40 is even lighter and even quicker as a result. It's not a slight difference - it's a DRAMATIC difference!!!

[havy]

Wow! OK, definitely the 540 7t will be a drift motor, for bashing. The question will be wether I keep the Shadow for racing or go Hacker or Lehner. I always wanted a lehner, may be a future motor for me.

Thanks Again Optiman, I appreciate your input.
Havy

[OptimaMan]

Shadow is a nice motor - but if you find that you're thermaling the controller too often at the speeds you want to run, you might want to go with the Hacker or Lehner. I think those two motors are easier on the controller too.

Havy, have you ever tried lipos? A C4012s on 11.1 volt or 14.8 volt is insanely fast. A 1520 10 turn is super duper insanely fast on 14.8 volts. It screams by like a formula 1 race car revving by at 65,000 rpm!!! It's an awesome sound. Maybe even kinda like a jet screaming by. Best part, even geared for 50 mph, I get over 20 minutes of runtime!!! There is so much torque, the poor diffs can't handle the power on carpet tracks with traction compound. Massive torque steer and blown tires.

[havy]

Right now I want to run 6 cell class w/ the other electrics, but I've been thinking about running high voltage lipos w/ milder motor since way back when you posted your initial tests(back before you posted about your house burning up) It's definitely on my to do list and maybe later this year I will be running strictly that type of electric. I definitly agree w/ you that what your doing is the way to go. I really like to race my cars so for now I will stick to the rules down here.

On my micro, it's a diff story, high cell count w/ a milder motor is definitely the way to go ( everybody that runs a micro has strickly outlaw type- no restrictions so to speak) and speed w/ long run times is definitely the way to go.

If I knew that others would welcome this set-up on a 1/10th car, I would skip the 6 cells and go directly to a lipo set-up like yours definitely. 20 min and a blazing fast car is something I would love to have.

Havy

[havy]

You guys had mentioned Pletty w/ the Uforce requires a certain setting, can anybody please give me the recommended settings for running this motor on 6 cells.

Thanks
havy

[starluckrc]

Medium or hard timing and 16khz.

[havy]

Thanks Jamie,

Do you know the max RPM for the Shadow motor?
Should it handle 8 cells well?
Will the U-Force handle the Shadow on 8 cells?
And the 540 7t?

havy

[starluckrc]

The Pletties are rated to 65-70k, but the U-Force will only do 62k on 4-pole motors. 8 cells will be rough on the U-Force with either motor, so watch the gearing closely. I would keep them below 50k anyway.

[havy]

Got my U-force today, set-up instuctions are confusing, but looks nice. Will be able to start playing soon.

Optima,
Any pics of your electronics layout? I'm trying to figuer how to mount the electronics.

Thanks,
Havy

[OptimaMan]

Here you go - pretty much like a brushed setup.

[OptimaMan]

Let's try that again.

[havy]

Cool, thanks Optimaman,

Looks like the best way to mount the speed control. Man, that lehner looks good in there, BTW, what servo is that?

Havy

[danjoy25]

Havy,

I think I can help, The servo is a Futaba S9550 Digital servo and is the best servo for shaft drive tourers. That pic reminds me of my Yokomo CGM with all the same electronics but with a Twist 55 motor

[havy]

Thanks Danjoy 25,

Working on getting my electronics set-up, I like that servo. I'm going to check around to see if it's available at my LHS, if not, it's going to be a standard size for one for me.

Soon, I'll be playing around w/ the U-force Plett combo on 6 cells, to see how it does at the local track. I'll give feedback soon.

Thanks to everyone for their help...
Havy

[OptimaMan]

In addition to the servo, I locked the stock servo saver and put that large kimbrough servo saver on it and put it on the outside holes to give me faster response. I did have to dremel the chassis just a bit though.

[havy]

Well, I got it together today and took the car outside to see what woukd happen. 72/21 combo and nooo cogging on 6 cells. Acceleration is tough to say at the moment, it's late. I'm going to try to take the car to the track tomorrow evening and cycle the batts, see adjust the car and see if I can race it Sunday.

Nooo, cogging, that's amazing...more to come hopefully.
Thanks again for everyones help. I still have to set-up the controller too. Hopefully tomorrow and Sunday I can give more feedback.

Havy

[havy]

Any body that can help me out with set-up for prop break and reversing? right now I have the swithches at 1,2,4,5 in off pos, and 3,6 in on position. The reciever gives one beep and it ran well, but haven't set the anything except the swithes to these positions. I run w/ a JRxs3 radio, and it ran fine. But I just want to know how to do the fine tuning if any required... I don't have the PC connector. Not sure if I want to get it, I have a MAC and although I have Virtual PC for Mac I don't have a serial port.

Thanks again,
Havy

[TimisTim]

I havent done anything with my UF except change it to medium timing and 16KHz drive frequency. I like to have the brakes the way they come from the factory, where it takes a couple seconds with the TX in reverse to engage it, and then it starts slowly reversing. They are just powerful enough also. Does this "antilock" type of thing where you can hear the tires locking up but they are still slightly spinning.

[danjoy25]

I finally got a V3 controller yesterday with also a Kontronic Twist 47 added to my brushless arsenal. :p

[danjoy25]

one more.

[TimisTim]

V3? Is that a newer software for the UF? If so how long has it been out?

I mailed mine off to germany for service, while its there I might as well get it upgraded. Its only four or five months old though.

[danjoy25]

Chances are yours might be version 3. I m pretty sure its the latest version.

[TheSteve]

Version 1 - first release
Version 2 - improved programming via U-Soft(I've never had a problem with V1)
Version 3 - added Futaba HRS support(released sometime around late summer last year)

[havy]

Danjoy,

Looks nice, let me see if I can get some pics of mine to post. The electrics in the TC4 fit nicely, similar to Optiman's pic but everything is a tad bigger. Hopefully todat I can get some runtime in after work.

havy

[havy]

I tested the car out, my friend who has a 10t says it speed is comparable with this set-up. (very happy). The car needs some setting up, but that's a different story. Ohh, and I just discovered it's time to buy a decent charge, I tested my friends ICE charger and it seems to be the way to go.

The motor/ esc combo ran the full 5 min w/o losing punch till the end of the run, and temps were 140's(motor) and 130's(esc). Should I worry about the temps? I'm running the car in the tropics, tonight was humid, and very hot, no wind today(doesn't happen that often, usually temps don't get as hot and humid as today (prob in the 90's), usually, it's high 80's low 90's in the summer but breezy.

havy

[havy]

Car ran well speed wise against the mod motors. But melted the diffs by the third heat. Going to try the steel outdrives or IRS. Stock diffs to the trash. have to get some more track time to set-up the car handleing wise.

Run time, 5 min w/ punch 72/21t 48pitch combo.
Havy

[havy]

Ohhh....Seems to be an excellent combo for the 6 cell mod touring class, not a blow the doors off your competitors combo, but definitly has more punch w/ equal top end, so it does offer a distinct advantage. FOund it to be quicker out of the corners (acceleration) the the brushed mod motors.

The guys who didn't know were wondering what batteries I was running after I kept running a few more minutes after the 5min heat finished.

havy

[tcolesen]

[QUOTE=havy**The guys who didn't know were wondering what batteries I was running after I kept running a few more minutes after the 5min heat finished.[/QUOTE]

That's cool! Shows them that brushless is boss! Did you tell them that you are running a brushless motor?

[OptimaMan]

I'd say you're running high 30's mph with that setup. Not bad... but if you use a motor with 1/2 the KV and 4s lipo, you'll get to that speed about 50% faster and run 10-15 minutes easily.

BTW, the steel outdrives work great - but you have to use the non-notched diff rings. In addition, you have to keep on rebuilding the diffs with new thrust bearings and springs because they need to be sooooo tight all the time (especially with HV) I'm actually getting sick and tired of rebuilding the diffs... I need a slipper clutch and regular old fashioned bevel gear diffs.

[havy]

Tcolesen,
Yes, they knew, only after I ran did some start to complain.... he he. Oh well.

Optiman,
have you tried Ceramic balls in the diffs? I didn't realize I needed diff rings, I have the outdrives from a prior TC3 I bought off ebay as spares but no diff rings, i guess I have to check the LHS. I'm definitely considering changing motor/batt combo in the near future to your recomendations, would love to get a seriously fast car w/ greater run time as you have described. It's funny that my micro BL car is faster than my 1/10th w/ longer runtimes.... he he, kind of like going down in the food chain instead of upwards.

havy

[krisI.925]

I was thinking about putting a brushless system in my XXX-S(4). Im kind of worried about the diffs tho I dont want to rebuild the diffs after every 10 runs. Kind of defeats the point of running brushless. Do you think a XXX-4 would run ok with the diffs tighten or practicaly locked?

[danjoy25]

I was thinking about putting a brushless system in my XXX-S(4). Im kind of worried about the diffs tho I dont want to rebuild the diffs after every 10 runs. Kind of defeats the point of running brushless. Do you think a XXX-4 would run ok with the diffs tighten or practicaly locked?

I saw a Losi with brushless before. I think it will mainly depend on the application your using. I still clean the diffs on my RDX every meet and the point of having brushless is no motor maintenance and ongoing expense. The only way out is to get a bevel type diff to fit in your car.

[havy]

Diff problem in my case most likely isn't secondary to brushless problem. In my case, a friend of mine emailed Assoc about the problem, they state the diffs melt mostly because they become loose or are not tightened properly.

I lacked that knowledge about running balldiffs, I'm acustomed to gear diffs. So lack of maintenace of my problem(or ignorance better said). Definitly something to learn from. I think changing to steel diffs will help, but will bring about performance issues if I don't care for my diff settings, so I will also watch for this as it is a known potential problem.

I bought the ICE charger, hopefully by next race day my equipment will be up to par to push my BL set-up competively against my racing buddies at the next race meet. Stiil was a nice change to run electric, slightly slower than running nitro (six cell class) but more presicion racing. Need to work on my set-up to make the car a good performer, and show up my friends :p

Still, all in all, this combo seems to be great for racing 6 cell class.

Will keep reporting my experiences.
Havy:)

[krisI.925]

I dont think they make gear diffs for the XXX-S. And by steel diffs do you mean steel outdrives? Im just bashing I dont really care about performance really, well not right now anyway. Maybe using a very heavy grease will help them last a little longer.

[havy]

Yes, correction, steel outdrives... you may have a point ablout the grease. I have a friend who used to run the nitro TC3 and swore by putting Car bearing grease in the diff cases... I mean filling the cases with bearing grease...hmmm.

Havy

[danjoy25]

I think if you can change the diff screw to a bigger one, maybe 3mm and also a matching locknut on the otherside might help make them last longer.

[OptimaMan]

My XXX-S G+ never had diff problems like my TC4 or Pro4. The XXX-S had belt slipping problems when slamming on the brakes with foam tires on a carpet track though. But never had to fix the diff or anything.

BUT, I've never ran my XXX-S G+ with 14.8 volts on indoor carpet with foam tires. I've ran 6 cell with c406s, 5300, b506s. Then I ran 11.1 volt with the 1920 5 turn motor (REALLY fast), but never had problems with the diff.

[OptimaMan]

why would you wanna fill a diff case with grease? add more resistance? The bearing grease will help dissipate the heat I suppose, but add friction. Just get the steel outdrives and tighten pretty good. It'll work pretty well, but eventually loosen. One bad thing about a tight diff is that you lose traction so a high powered BL on a tight indoor track is hard to handle at times.

[TheSteve]

I've never had a problem with the XXX-s diffs either - they seem to handle the power quite well as long as you don't run them too loose. I've run my Hacker c40 12s with 4S LiPo's with no issues on asphalt, never tried it on carpet.

[krisI.925]

right now the diffs on my car seem to be working pretty well, I am suprised, Im not a big fan ball diffs and that is my only realy disliking about this car. But if you guys say not to worry about it then I wont. :)

[danjoy25]

What I have found as well is the diffs will last longer if you minimise brake usage or set it so it won't lock the wheels when it is applied.

[havy]

Did a rebuild of the diffs last monday, put some IRS alu diffs in, and decided to go up in pinion, and found I had placed a 19t instead of what I thought was the 21t. So now I put the 21t in, the car is much faster 21/72 combo, but I want to go up some more, try a 23t. The motor and esc are getting hot, but not to the point of thermaling. I'm still getting more than 5 min w/ punch from generic GP3300's.

My question now is should I keep going up until it thermals and use this as a max pinion/spur combo or hold off? I'm getting around 150 deg F right now on the motor and a little hotter on the ESC. I'm going to put a fan on the ESC to see if it helps.

havy

[danjoy25]

Did a rebuild of the diffs last monday, put some IRS alu diffs in, and decided to go up in pinion, and found I had placed a 19t instead of what I thought was the 21t. So now I put the 21t in, the car is much faster 21/72 combo, but I want to go up some more, try a 23t. The motor and esc are getting hot, but not to the point of thermaling. I'm still getting more than 5 min w/ punch from generic GP3300's.

My question now is should I keep going up until it thermals and use this as a max pinion/spur combo or hold off? I'm getting around 150 deg F right now on the motor and a little hotter on the ESC. I'm going to put a fan on the ESC to see if it helps.

havy

Don't quote me on this one. I did kept on going until I the ESC thermalled, then went down 1 tooth and now I know the sweet spot for my combo in my local track. I would also recommend the fan.

[OptimaMan]

I think you can go a tad higher in temps. I run my U Force 75 at 170 degrees all the time w/o problems. I've had my 12.97 get over 200 degrees too. With 19 tooth, you're in the mid 30's. 21 tooth high 30's and with 23 tooth, you'll be in the low 40's mph. Odd thing about brushless is that they have sooo much torque, that sometimes, there is MORE acceleration as you gear taller!!! It takes time to spool up so with so much torque, the motor spools up at the same speed but the extra couple of teeth make it accelerate even faster!

Now, if you burn up your controller, it's not MY FAULT. :) Anytime you run a low turn motor, just changing a couple of teeth will draw 10 more amps during acceleration!!!

[havy]

Hello,

Just thought I'd give some feedback on my Shadow Uforce combo.

It got really hot this wknd w/ track temps at around 140 deg F(the asfault) and humid, I tried to go up to a 23t/72t combo but had some thermalling probs, so I went down a tooth and the car motor speed control ran woderfully. Kept up speed wise w/ everything on the track (mostly 10t mod motors). I had some serious issues w/ set-up and torque steer but I managed to keep the car lined up enough to get third place and run a magic best lap.

Ball diffs unfortunately for me are something new, and setting them properly has been tough. And playing w/ set-ups on this car given the very little time I've had to run it has made it difficult, but the motor ran well aside from the other issues, comfortably makeing the 5 min mains and then about 1 and a half min extra(6.5 min roughly, maybe more)

havy

[havy]

Broke my fornt diff screw yesterday...TC4. Any ideas on improving front diff integrity. Thinking about going w/ a solid... any opinions? I use IRS diffs.

Havy