IFMAR rules

[Greg15]

BRUSHLESS MOTORS:
General definition of a Brushless Motor:
a) Sensored or sensorless motors are allowed.
b) The motor has to be rebuildable. Ball bearings are allowed.
c) If the motor is sensored:
- It must use a six position JST ZH connector model number ZHR-6 or equivalent connector with 6 JST part number SZH-002T-P0.5 26-28 awg contacts or equivalent.

Wire sequence must be as follows:
Pin #1 - Black wire ground potential
Pin #2 - orange wire phase C
Pin #3 - white wire phase B
Pin #4 - green wire phase A
Pin #5 - blue wire temp control, 10 k Thermistor referenced to ground potential
Pin #6 - red wire + 5.0 volts d.c. +/- 10%.
Compatible speed control must use the 6 position JST header part number X-6B-ZR-SMX-TF (where the X denotes the style of the header), or equivalent.
- The power connector has to be clearly marked A, B, C.
A for phase A
B for phase B
C for phase C
d) `05` size specifications
Can:
Overall maximum diameter is 36.02mm measured at whatever point yields the maximum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Overall minimum diameter is 34.00mm measured at whatever point yields the minimum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Maximum length is 53.00mm measured from the mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Minimum length is 50.00mm measured from the mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Motor mounting holes must be on 1.00- inch (25.40mm) centres.
Stack/Stator:
Stack minimum length 19.30mm, maximum 21.00mm. Stack inside diameter minimum 12.50mm, maximum 16.00mm. If a stack is used then it must be continuous. The laminations have to be one after the other without anything in between. The thickness of the stack plates is 0.35 +/- 0.05mm. All laminations must be of the same material.
Winding:
Only three slot (phase) “Y” wound stators are permitted. No delta wound stators allowed. Only circular (round) pure copper wire permitted. No turn limit.
Rotor:
Shaft diameter must be 0.125 inches (3.175mm). Only one piece, two pole bonded Neodymium or Ferrite magnetic rotors are permitted. Magnet minimum length 23.00mm, maximum 27.00mm. Magnet minimum diameter 12.00mm, maximum 5.50mm.
e) All motors must have the original manufacturer’s logo or name moulded into the end bell.
f) A minimum of two thousand (2000) brushless motors must be available at the time of approval. A minimum of three hundred (300) brushless motors must have been sold to at least three (3) distributors or hobby shops or OEM’s at the time of submittal. The manufacturer has to provide an address of a hobby shop or the like, that any driver who wishes to obtain these motors at the time of the approval can do so. No hybrid (mixing of parts from approved brushless motors) allowed.



More open then the ROAR rules as allows sensorless systems, but what motors are legal?

[tcolesen]

As I (and others) see it, the only legal brushless motors are the Associated Neo and Novak SS5800. The Neo will definately be a better choice than the SS5800, when it comes out...

[chilledoutuk]

why are they so resrictive on the dimensions of the motor i understand a max diameter but specifieing a minimum diameter is ****.

What really anoys me is that they start specifieing how all motors have to be made the same way as novaks more or less as there motors are inferior to german built counterparts.

In fact its like losi traying to get any car with shaft drive not allowed.

I dont like this level of intervention in rc technologies allowed to race it makes inovation almost pointless.

Does anyone know of a single sensorless motor that would comply with these rules if not then saying sensorless motors are allowed is a lie.

You could use novaks ss5800 motor as a sensorless with a controller like the u-force but having to do that would be really stupid.
What settings everyone should one use for the novaks by the way in sensorless?

This reminds me of the usa putting extra taxs on german steel imports because there ineffcient factorys could not compete with the germans.

[TheSteve]

The Novak motor doesn't work very well with any Schulze controllers due to the wind design of the motor(or lack of software on Schulze's part)

[Greg15]

Yea, Novak motor is crap with the U-Force.

Well if anyone can re write the IFMAR rules to suit the majority of brushless motors would be great!! I need a set of draft rules ASAP and don't know the technology well enough to write them myself.

[nicholcgn]

Maybe I missed it but the ROAR rules do allow sensorless. They have the basic same wording of sensor or sensorless and also specify the sensor plug if it has one. As far as motor diamater I am sure all of this can change if the different manufacturors will work with the companies. There has to be some starting point. And I have not seen a lot of other people rushing to build car motors and controllers. Most of the guys have just been trying them. Also look at mod motors 10 years ago until now. Big increases. You will see the same in brushless.

My big concern is that make this stuff as dependable as my brushed equipment. If the sensor connectors tear up or we can not clean and repair the bearings in the motors it does take some of the good items out. Maybe someone will come out with a tunable motor so you could actually tune it for the track.

Overall I have no major complaints except everyone calls fould when you want to run a brushless.

[kufman]

The only motors that are currently legal are the novak and Reedy motors. All the others violate atleast one of the rules.

Oh ya, it isn't the lack of software on schulze's part that doesn't allow their esc's to work with the novak, it is the design of the motor itself. I have tried three different sensorless esc's and not one of them can run the novak motor.

[chilledoutuk]

The new hacker controllers can run the novak motors i was bored a couple of months ago so i tried it. I am suprised to hear that the u-force does not work with the novak motor. Although the mtroniks controller also had probelms with novaks motor when i tested it.

You talk about tuning the motors but with the brushes and comutators eleminated there is very little to tune on the motor it self. However with all sensorless controllers there are many parameters you can change such as timing and frequency which enables a element of tuning with brushless motors.

[TBone77]

As I (and others) see it, the only legal brushless motors are the Associated Neo and Novak SS5800. The Neo will definately be a better choice than the SS5800, IF it comes out...

Fixed

[SpEEdyBL]

Oh ya, it isn't the lack of software on schulze's part that doesn't allow their esc's to work with the novak, it is the design of the motor itself. I have tried three different sensorless esc's and not one of them can run the novak motor.

It looks to me that any motors that are made and fit these requirements my not work with the current sensorless escs since all the motors will have to be wye wound and use a similar stator to the novak's, sensored or not. If you think about it, the only specification ALL the current sensorless motors that are intended for CARS share is the mounting hole size and spacing. Otherwise, the dimensions are all different. The rules have to be based on some dimensions, or any brushless motor could be allowed. This would be unfair because all the brushed motors have to follow strict rules, while brushless could have any # of poles, any size rotor or can or cost any amount of money. Imagine a brushed motor that costed $175.

[TBone77]

It looks to me that any motors that are made and fit these requirements my not work with the current sensorless escs since all the motors will have to be wye wound and use a similar stator to the novak's, sensored or not. If you think about it, the only specification ALL the current sensorless motors that are intended for CARS share is the mounting hole size and spacing. Otherwise, the dimensions are all different. The rules have to be based on some dimensions, or any brushless motor could be allowed. This would be unfair because all the brushed motors have to follow strict rules, while brushless could have any # of poles, any size rotor or can or cost any amount of money. Imagine a brushed motor that costed $175.

Brushed motors are far more expensive than brushless over time, I think. The costs of maintenance parts, equipment, and time coupled with the fact that they simply don't last as long, well, I don't think brushless costs a dime more over the long term. I'll spend $300 on a system that I can get 2 or 3 years out of any day of the week.

[Greg15]

One thing I haven't pointed out is that the brushless will not run with our modified cars, this rule will be inserted in our Super Touring class which is sort of our unlimited modified. So I see a more laxed approach to the rules due to this.

[StevePond]

why are they so resrictive on the dimensions of the motor i understand a max diameter but specifieing a minimum diameter is ****.

What really anoys me is that they start specifieing how all motors have to be made the same way as novaks more or less as there motors are inferior to german built counterparts.

In fact its like losi traying to get any car with shaft drive not allowed.

I dont like this level of intervention in rc technologies allowed to race it makes inovation almost pointless.

Does anyone know of a single sensorless motor that would comply with these rules if not then saying sensorless motors are allowed is a lie.

You could use novaks ss5800 motor as a sensorless with a controller like the u-force but having to do that would be really stupid.
What settings everyone should one use for the novaks by the way in sensorless?

This reminds me of the usa putting extra taxs on german steel imports because there ineffcient factorys could not compete with the germans.


Relax. The rules are very necessary and a positive step towards infusing brushless motors into organized racing. As for the specifications, there's very solid logic behind clearly defined dimensions and specs. The motors should be on relative equal footing, and the size of the motor is paramount where it comes to vehicle design. Could you imagine all vehicles are designed to fit a certain size and weight of motor, then someone else comes out with a larger, heavier motor, which only fits in a specially designed vehicle? If the motor were clearly superior AND allowed by very loosely defined rules, then every would have to redesign their vehicles to fit the motor. It would be insanely costly for the manufacturers AND the racers. It just doesn't make sense to race under a "run-what-you-brung" rule - the lack of any sort of standard will kill brushless before it ever gets off the ground. I've seen it may times before with other products. If you're running monster trucks, an open standard is one thing, but there needs to be some sort of parity for brushless to survive in organized competition.

[TBone77]

I didn't think of it that way... the specs aren't just there to keep racers in line, but also to keep the manufacturers in line.

[chilledoutuk]

I dont mind a maximum diameter for the motor in 1/10th but a minimum is just being obtuse and means people cant run 400 series motors as there diameter is smaller.

[tcolesen]

I too don't understand this "minimum" business. If a brushless motor is smaller in any way when compared to another, then it most likely isn't as powerful. Like shorter rotors, smaller overall diameters, smaller magnet diameters, etc. I think that 400 motors should definately be allowed, since they aren't as powerful as their 540 counterparts. I am sure some of you are wondering, "why would you use a brushless 400 size motor?" These motors are lighter weight, cost less, and spool up faster than 540's. They will give more run time than 540s since they don't use as many amps. But, they are still more powerful than many 540 brushed motors, at a much lower weight.

[SpEEdyBL]

There's nothing wrong with running a 400 size motor, just put it inside a 540 can. It's the rotor and the stator that counts. The diameter of the stator is unspecified and they allow a 12 to 15.5 mm wide rotor that can vary from 23-27mm long. I think a 400 size rotor is somewhere in that range.