What is a Muscle Car in 2005?

[mattb]

When you say 'Muscle Car', visions of Hemi Cudas, Chevelle SS's (http://www.diecastxmagazine.com/dx/content/quick_look/Chevelle_SS_454.asp) and Ford's Mustang (http://www.diecastxmagazine.com/dx/content/ootb/1968_Bullitt_Mustang.asp) come to mind. Pro-Touring has given a fresh look to some of favorites like the GTO (http://www.diecastxmagazine.com/dx/content/ootb/1965_gto_maisto.asp) and Camaro (http://www.diecastxmagazine.com/dx/content/ootb/1968_Camaro_GMP_1.asp) and diecast versions seem to be everywhere. The question is, with all the modern tuner touches, do these Pro Tourers still count as classic muscle? Are they the best of both worlds, or has the trend erased the old-school character of these cars? Maybe its just high-tech life-support for machines past their prime? What do you guys think?

Matt B
Editor, Die Cast X Magazine

[mopar-1]

Well in my books there is nothing like the old Cuda`s, Mustang`s, Vette`s, but I will give ford credit on the new mustang, I think they are by far the best so far of the old and new put together!! But make some 2 Door`s not every body wants a boat!!, A prime xample Dodge SRT-10 Ram 4 dr, 4wh,
500Hp on tap, yes just what every family man needs. throw the wife and 3 kids in and leter go!! Sorry just venting, With all the gas prices as high as they are what is with all the 4 wheel drives!!

[RandyKite]

I'm 47 years old. But at the risk of sounding like my dad...

These kids these days don't know what a car is supposed to sound like! They go runnin' around in their 4 cylinder Neons, sounding like a bumble bee with a soar throat. Give me a '67 GTO with a good set of headers any day!

Respectfully submitted,
A Geezer-in-the-making
:cool:

[mattb]

These kids these days don't know what a car is supposed to sound like! They go runnin' around in their 4 cylinder Neons, sounding like a bumble bee with a soar throat. Give me a '67 GTO with a good set of headers any day!

Well, there is no doubt the accoustics on a V8 are superior to a 4, just like a Ferrari V12 makes Detroit Iron sound like ball-bearings in a paint can.

But to me, the most crucial aspect of qualifying as a muscle car is that it be quick and affordable -- that was the original formula anyway. And by that standard, some of the current crop of hot compacts are more muscular than the GTOs, Chevelles and Roadrunners of yore.

Consider, that '67 GTO was good for high 14s at about 95mph in the 1/4 in stock form. A Neon SRT-4 does it in 13.9 @ 103 -- not to mention being dramatically better in the corners and on the brakes. Oh, and it only costs $21K and gets 25mpg too. Sure its ugly, but so was the GTO by '71 or 72.

There is no doubt the '67 Goat is one sweet machine, and I certainly wouldn't give it back if someone offered me one. But don't knock those kids in their compacts until they are well back in your rear view, because when you come right down to it -- is it better to sound fast, or to BE fast?

[RandyKite]

Point well taken.

By-the-way... Fast & Furious showed us the old and the new on the same film.

I do like the new sport compacts. I was just semi-jesting. I hope that came through on my original post. If not... I guess I'm in trouble. After all, I'm a youth pastor. (blush, blush)

[desfjr1300]

As for your original question, my vote is no. The bodywork and modern touches may make them better cars, but at the same time removes the "charm" that made them classics to begin with. Today's cars are arguably better built and certainly get better gas mileage, but alot of the appeal with the old hotrods was their simplicity, and the ease with which engines could be built to very high horsepower levels.

Another thought-In 30 years do you think we'll be seeing pimped-out Neon's on auction at Barrett-Jackson?
Chances are, no. They're disposable cars perfect for the disposable world we live in at the moment, but having made no new or significant impact on the automotive industry will most likely be relegated to the scrap heap.

[mattb]

the appeal with the old hotrods was their simplicity, and the ease with which engines could be built to very high horsepower levels.
True enough, but but to play devil's advocate a bit, the same could be said for any antiquated technological device. Black and White TVs look pretty simple next to a hi-def flat screen. Does simple equal better?

And "Ease" is relative with respect to power. Building horsepower in a turbocharged motor is easier than in a naturally aspirated motor. Just turn up the boost. Many cars you can do that with a software upgrade and never even have to pop the hood, let alone turn a wrench. That sure beats swapping heads or the cam out of a classic V8.

Another thought-In 30 years do you think we'll be seeing pimped-out Neon's on auction at Barrett-Jackson?

Chances are, no. They're disposable cars perfect for the disposable world we live in at the moment, but having made no new or significant impact on the automotive industry will most likely be relegated to the scrap heap.
Maybe true with respect to the Neon in particular, but that is just one example. Would you say Honda has made no significant impact with variable valve timing? Have Subaru and Mitsubishi made no impact with mainstreaming turbos and AWD?

And if you want to talk about disposable, how many Mustangs and Camaros went to the crusher for every one auctioned off? Probably more than Dodge ever made of the Neon. And lets not even talk about all the dead Malibu/Chevelle/Impala/Fairlane/Torino/Mavirick/Dart/Valiant/Duster carcasses.

Will a Neon ever fetch big auction numbers -- I doubt it. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a few Type R Hondas, Mini Cooper S's and R32 Volkswagens show up at Barrett, not to mention WRXs and Evos. Will they ever command the premiums that are currently poisoning the muscle car scene? Again, probably not. But just about every expert will tell you that muscle cars -- however cool -- do not warrant the prices they are currently fetching at auction. There are a lot of rich baby-boomers approaching retirement age that are desperate to recapture their youth behind the wheel of the machine they longed for but couldn't afford at the time. That artificial -- and temperary -- bubble in the market won't live on past most of them.

Will there be another bubble when the Fast And Furious crowd start joining AARP? Maybe. Or maybe they'll be pragmatic enough to realize that the new cars of 2035 or whenever will be superior to the cars they admired as kids.

[desfjr1300]

All good points, although the Tv analogy doesn't really apply-You can tune that old Cadillac 500 motor to current Viper specs, but you'll never make that B&W look as good as your hd plasma! :D

I agree that the old smoke-mobiles are selling for far more a premium than they're worth, and I think you're right on the mark about it being a boomer thing. I remember reading a comment from the designer of the hemi engine, (Not the guy who "invented" it)and the cars into which it was installed-He was shocked at the amount of money your standard Challenger went for, as he considered them (the car AND engine) pieces of junk!

Ah, but the lines! You can't deny the particular style that was so uniquely American- To hell with aerodynamics! Shaker hoods, louvered quarter windows, CURVES! And enough chrome to blind you.
And aren't classic lines what it's all about lately? Look at the success of the new Mustang, the fact that full size Dodge pickups are flying out the doors simply because they've got a "bumblebee" and that classic stripe painted on the bed. People want performance AND style-the first available from almost any manufacturer, the second, well, that's a little tougher.

How about STEEL door handles? When was the last time you saw one of those? Plastic was rarely used in interiors, not that vinyl covered foam is any better, but plastic is plastic and no matter how fancy you make it it will never look "stylish" to me.

The current crop of cars are "better", in most respects, and sure, turning up the boost on your WRX is certainly easier than boring/stroking your old 396.
But try replacing the starter on that WRX-If you had to do it for a living my guess is you would quickly gain a new appreciation for old muscle.

And there is no 4 or 5 inch exhaust tip that will ever make that Eclipse sound as good as your standard, bone stock run-of-the-mill Chevy 350!

[mattb]

I think it all boils down to aesthetics. The lines we all admire are keyed to a certain era, and if that era resonates with you emotionally -- either because you lived it the first time, or because you wish you had -- then the lines look classic. If not, they look dated.

Me, I'm a Mopar fan, and nothing beats the '71 Cuda for sheer menace in sheetmetal. I'm totally for shaker scoops and fender gills, though you can keep the billboard graphics and don't you dare pollute a sporting machine with chrome!

When I was a kid, my folks had a '70 Challenger parked out front of the house for years. Playing in that thing played a large part in me growing into a car nut now.

But as much as I love those E-bodies, I have to admit that they were built like junk. We lived in Arizona and the Challenger still rusted. The original engine threw a rod, so it was on its second 340 when I knew it. Those steel door handles didn't work worth a damn. The brakes were almost non-existant. When my dad sold it in about 1980, he got all of $350 for it. Ugh, I still weep at the thought...

You're right that changing the starter -- or most other service items -- was much easier back in the day. But then, they needed so much more service.

If a car is twice as difficult to work on, but needs only 1/2 as much repair, what is the net effect?

You could make cars today with cavernous engine bays to make service easy -- but then they'd weigh more, handle worse, suck gas, and kill you in a collision.

Again, its about the aesthetics -- how much inconvenience is it worth to have those gorgeous lines? Every person has their threshold. For me, I look at it kinda like dating a supermodel -- a wild ride and great fun to show off to your pals, but I bet it would be too tempermental and high-maintenance to live with every day! :D