2230 Savage

[Taito]

Hey guys,

I'm in the progress of building my Brushless Savage... well, I want it to be fast. Very fast. Too fast, actually. :rolleyes:

Right now I'm thinking of a Lehner 2230/12 with 8s Kokam 3200HD cells in there, although I'm not sure if that turns out to be too dern heavy for a Savage. Maybe 6s and a 2230/8-9 would be the better choice?
Could the Kokams still handle that? Also, has anyone got an estimation on what currents am I looking at with those two setups?

Thanks in advance :D

[Taito]

I just put some more thought into this and found out about the Lehner Asterisk/Triangle Windings. Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

I could buy a 2230/8 and modify it to the Asterisk Winding.

That would turn the 2230/8 into a 2230/13.8 Motor, dropping the RPM/V from 2465 to 1425.

Thus, I could run my Savage now with the Kokam 8s 3200HD and the Motor in Asterisk configuration (29.6V x 1425 = 42180 rpm)... and if I ever feel like going for a lower Voltage Setup (e.g. due to LiPos being able to handle higher currents), I could switch back to Triangle configuration and run it with 4-5s (14.8V x 2465 = 36482 rpm)

Did I get that right? Sounds almost too good to be true....

[ElectricThunder]

That sounds bout right (that you can switch between star and delta as they're typically called). Neat option really. But yes, I suppose you could run two different voltages (a high voltage setup, and a lower high voltage setup). You do realize the 2230 is about the size of a coke can I think right (or in that neighborhood)? :D

[danhfvcsd]

i think it's the 2280 that's the coke can -lol- But the 2230 isn't far off - i've got one going into my LST soon on 18nimh and 6S lipo :)

[TimisTim]

Very powerful setups! Whats the wattage on those setups? Around 3000? :eek:

[Taito]

I actually did some more calculation now, turns out that 12 (twelve!) 3200HD Cells weight roughly the same as 18 Sub-C cells. Now that is amazing.

44.4V and a 2240/12 sounds tempting... can anyone say shredded drivetrain? :eek: :rolleyes:

[Rtsbasic]

Can we say overkill..? :) How would you fit 12 lipo cells in there? More than that how would you afford several $$$ for one battery? I couldn't justify that sorta expense.

[masterdummy]

WOW!!! what kind of esc would you be using?

[moep]

....

[ElectricThunder]

i think it's the 2280 that's the coke can -lol- But the 2230 isn't far off - i've got one going into my LST soon on 18nimh and 6S lipo :)
:D Still pretty close....hehehehhe

Taito, what kinda controller are you gonna use for this beast?!?!?!

[Taito]

Well, i guess I havent got much choices.

The 3695 Micro-Car from BK-Electronics seems like the way to go... or maybe a Schulze, although I havent looked into the Schulzes yet.

Here's a link:

http://www.bk-electronics.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_56&products_id=352

Not sure if I can get a hold of this sucker in the states - that shop there seems to be somewhere in Germany. :(

The setup im planing atm is a 2240/7 in Asterisk Configuration (equals aprox 12 Turns and 1222 rpm/V) with the Controller mentioned above... and 12S Kokam 3200HD Cells, of course.

[Re-Mix]

Don't go with a schulzce controller, unless you absolutely have too. If you can't get it, I'm sure Mike at rc-monster.com could order it direct from BK for you

[masterdummy]

Re-Mix:

Why would you not recommend schulze controllers? I ask now after I have ordered a u-force 75...

[tcolesen]

Schulze as a company has bad service. The U-Force 75 is a great controller, just don't burn it out and everything will work out fine.

[TimisTim]

I have had two controllers worked over by them and its not a service matter but more of a having to wait matter. 4 Weeks worth of waiting to be exact.

I am very angry with them at the moment because they are on holiday until the 17th of this month and my controller is in for service and has to wait it out!

[Re-Mix]

Ohh no, the U-Force is a great controller, the other controllers are just really touchy. I love BK products and have seen enough burned schultze's to side with them. The U-Force 75 is a good buy, no worries.

[tcolesen]

I personally am not biased when it comes to controllers. I have managed to get all brushless controllers that I have used into non-working order. First was a Warrior 9918 that smoked (literally) from what I think was 10v on the BEC input (external BEC device). Second was a MGM Compro 120amp controller. I think it may have gotten slight water damage. It worked in boat mode, but not car mode (go figure). After sending it to the Czech Republic a month and a half ago, I have not heard from MGM nor have they responded to my emails. Since sending my first Warrior 9918, I finally got a replacement after 4 months of waiting. It became damaged it about a month ago, and I replaced a part that was obviously broken, and it still doesn't work. The internal BEC does work though.

I am currently borrowing a Schulze 18.97FW. I added a custom heatsink and used thermal epoxy to secure it. This heatsink job acts as a sort of payment for the owner letting me use it. So far it hasn't been damaged (and I hope it stays that way!).

[starluckrc]

While Schuze doens't do much warranty work, they do turn things around faster than BK typically. BK has gotten a lot pickier about warranty as well now. 4 month turnaround are unexcusable as well and a major reason for me dropping them.

[Promod]

I have two of the 2240 and use them in my E-maxx. These motors are the BEST, great power and they run very cool. With 9s Kokams the 2240/12 pulls over 3500 watts.
Testing on the 2240/10 and 6S 3200 Kokams showed good results. With bashing gearing the truck runs 54 mph and gets 20 miniute run times. Moving the gearing up 3 teeth increased speed to 60 mph. I think it could run fasting with even taller gearing but was afraid to push the Kokams any harder.
This Kokams are so light it's hard to keep the truck on the ground. I have very limited testing on the 9S 3200 Kokams because the truck will wheelie at anything over half throttle. No matter how easy or slowly the trigger is pulled the truck will flip. This is also with a wheelie bar! When I ran the high cell count(28 to 32) NIMHs the weight was helping to keep the truck under control.
Sorry for the book.
Thank you,
Promod

[glassdoctor]

Don't forget Hacker... we have been waiting almost two years now for them to come up with a replacement for all the bloody turds they sold us.

I hope my MGM holds up if that's how their service is. Why is it that all the "brushless" companies really sukk? At least the ones not in the U.S.?

Castle has awesome customer service and they are in my own backyard here in the American midwest. Novak is the same in California, as is Aveox. These companies take care of the customer.

What excuse do the European companies have?

[bob2300NX]

I heard a VERY bad story about Aveox. But have to agree novak and castle have the best customer service. That's why I went from the basic 4200 and warrior 7018 to the Novak SS.

[tcolesen]

I am in the process of MGM's "customer service". No replies, so we will see what happens. Castle has to get their beta Mamba Maxx controllers out and tested!

[possent]

Castle has awesome customer service and they are in my own backyard here in the American midwest. Novak is the same in California, as is Aveox. These companies take care of the customer.

What excuse do the European companies have?

Mtroniks (UK) has a good service in my opinion.
They replaced my broken motor in two weeks (i'm from italy) and they offer the software upgrade for free each time a new release comes out.

[glassdoctor]

Good call... I have heard good things about them too. It also appears their stuff is very good, better than they "rate" it.

I'm sure there are good stories about LMK and Shulze etc, but we know the general reputation is not good.

At least we are getting more players and more choices... better choices I hope.

Any word on Castle's big mamba debut?

[Mr. Constructor]

the major fact that you only might think that the coustomer service is better with us companys is the fact that they´re IN THE US !!
the distance is the problem, we´re having trouble with american parts here, so we see it from the other way round ;-)

but as for the setups discussed: do NOT run more than 8S lipo´s the major hard thing is that around 45 V and at 1A the section of danger is reached.
at these datas the official danger for life section starts (official electric "line") so if ya use a car with around 44 V but at more than 50A IF YA EVER get in contact it might be your death !!!!

this final frontier (haven´t we heard this in numerous startrek´s ;-) ) shall not be used that much, keep away from above 8S, belive me the power of a 8S system combined with a 2230 is too much for ANY truck, we run these setups in 5th or 6th scale cars and still have little too much power !!!

I do know that too much power in a truck is a must have, but not in this case as it really could injure yourself, anyway it´ll be a very costly thing just to find out that the car is totally undriveable !!

[danhfvcsd]

Quote Mr Constructor
but as for the setups discussed: do NOT run more than 8S lipo´s the major hard thing is that around 45 V and at 1A the section of danger is reached.
at these datas the official danger for life section starts (official electric "line") so if ya use a car with around 44 V but at more than 50A IF YA EVER get in contact it might be your death !!!!


WOW!!! That's the most serious warning i've EVER heard on a forum :eek: sounds dangerous...

[Mr. Constructor]

it does not only sound dangerous, i´ve studied this electronical thing a few semesters and it should be taken seriously, the 8S should be way enough power, if using the right electric (motor, batterys, esc) you could put out more than 4000 watts !!!!

way enough, even for 5th scale as the electric bl motors have way better torque and have better efficiency too.
that´s why i love them really !! ;-))

anyway, it shall not sound rude here, but this warning had to be spoken as this is too dangerous at all, it shall be a hobby not life risking at all.
but i will try to help as much as i can in this forum to even set those 6-8s lipo projects.
greetings from germany !!

[tcolesen]

the major fact that you only might think that the coustomer service is better with us companys is the fact that they´re IN THE US !!
the distance is the problem, we´re having trouble with american parts here, so we see it from the other way round ;-)


I can understand that somewhat, but when emails are sent, they get them immediately. I remember when Jamie at Starluck RC was emailing BK asking about the repair/replacement status of my 9918. I don't think he ever got a reply until they said that they were sending him some controllers with mine in it (4 months later). So with email, there should be no distance problems. Although I can see how it can take a month to get a controller back, as the shipping both ways can take 2-3 weeks alone.

Sorry for the rant, I am just somewhat angry at companies with English speaking people that can't return emails about your controller even after a week of sending them.

[Mr. Constructor]

it was no "making you down" thing, the reason why they might not answer everything is that they are still only 5 people running the full firm !!!
(3 of them are also making develpoments and testing and the other 2 try to reply on every call or mail, no matter from wich country they come, so it´s quite a bit work to do.

the emails could be fast, but in the normal industrie (i worked for a shipyard in hamburg for some years) it´s totally normal that a request takes around 2 weeks and the full thing from first asking to full delivery takes often around 4 weeks. only the modelers want their parts best "yesterday" ;-) it´s corious but they really want the parts that fast.

but after having some parts returned to the manu it really isn´t that cool if ya waiting for several weeks on parts, i fully understand that (as i had to wait a full half year for a pull starter some years ago !!) but it takes a few weeks for the long travel over the big pond !!!! ;-)

[GordonFreeman]

Working on my 1/8 scale conversion. I think I want around 25 volts, a Feigao 540 XL 14T. I want to be able to easily make 20 minutes without nearing battery damage (LiPo), so around 6000-7000 mAh?

Now what ESC do I want? Well, I know what I want, a BK 3695 Microcar, right? Can I get it anywhere in the US for less than an arm and a leg?

What about the new CC Mamba max? Castle makes those new HV ESC for planes which are insanely cheap for the power they can handle. Why can't I find something like that for a ground vehicle?

[tdkclass]

The MambaMaxx is good for 16 cells afaik and it's not out yet.

A Warrior 12020 might be enough..

[tcolesen]

How about a Feigao 12XL?:
http://www.starluckrc.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_28_31_37&products_id=70

It would be good for 24v in a 1/8 buggy (~33000RPM). With this kind of voltage, you could get away with batteries rated at only about 35amps continuous! And even then that might be overkill. In other words, you wouldn't need to worry about the Lipo getting damaged. You should be able to hit the 20min. mark with ~5000mah, just because this setup is so high voltage.

As for a controller, the Warrior 9920 should suffice. 20 NiMh cells are 24v nominal, and ~27v when fully charged. I am thinking that 6s Lipo might work for a 12XL (maybe a little low, though), but 7s would be too much voltage for the 9920 (if you chose the Lipo route).

[Jev]

I work as a telecoms engineer. We deal with 50v - 120v dc lines all the time that can handle plenty of amps. Can get a nasty sting from them if you have moisture on your skin, either rain or sweet. I'm not aware of anyone every being seriously harmed from a shock. Could be be risky if you had a heart condition.

[GordonFreeman]

I would imagine CC wouldn't be selling HV systems (up to 50v) to "hobby" people if there were a significant threat.

If I lick my fingers and grab each end of an ohm meter with each hand I get something like 10K ohms. I can't imagine 50v being able to push a deadly current through that. What would that be, 50v/10K or 5 mA?

[RS4rally1124]

u guys volts arent what are the most dangerous parts.... volts hurt amps kill

JT

[Jev]

Can't get amps without volts ;)