View Full Version : Tekin 1/10th scale brushless
ElectricThunder
12-18-2005, 09:38 PM
Go to www.teamtekin.com
Looks like there's more brushless fun on the horizon...:D
tcolesen
12-18-2005, 10:20 PM
Interesting... I wonder if it is sensored or sensorless. Might be good competition for the Mamba Maxx.
kschauwe
12-19-2005, 12:17 AM
I'm betting it's sensored to be ROAR legal.
kufman
12-19-2005, 08:26 AM
It doesn't have to be sensored to be ROAR legal.
Rtsbasic
12-19-2005, 11:00 AM
My money is on it being sensored to maintain compatibility with motors from "big names" like LRP & Novak.
ElectricThunder
12-19-2005, 12:50 PM
I'd like to know which it is also. If it's sensored, then more motor options for Novak/LRP:D. I just hope it's not an overpriced, relabeled unit like their mini rage looks to be (looks like a mamba to me). BTW, they're also coming out with an MT brushless system as well, so I read on their forum. :D
It sensorless only. What a waste of time lol.
kufman
12-19-2005, 06:06 PM
It sensorless only. What a waste of time lol.
What do you mean?
Or more importantly, what a wasted opportunity.
The original tekin were at the forefront of rc car racing. If the same were true now then why would they develop a system you cannot currently and for the foreseeable future be used at top level competition.
They missed the ball by about 200 yards...
And check out the poor video's that are all but useless.
scoob
12-19-2005, 08:42 PM
Can't sensorless be used if it meets the other ROAR specs?
The only problem with it being sensorless is that it won't be compatible with the Novak or Reedy setups.
kufman
12-19-2005, 11:15 PM
If someone can make a competition level controller that is sensorless, it will take the market. Schulze is very close with the u-force. It can compete with every brushed system i have seen, unfortunately the brushless motor rules are written such that they disadvantage sensorless technology. Even if the system isn't a competition level system, the basher and recreational market is far larger than the race market anyway. I think a sensorless competition system is on the horizon and it will be huge when it happens.
If someone can make a competition level controller that is sensorless, it will take the market. Schulze is very close with the u-force. It can compete with every brushed system i have seen, unfortunately the brushless motor rules are written such that they disadvantage sensorless technology. Even if the system isn't a competition level system, the basher and recreational market is far larger than the race market anyway. I think a sensorless competition system is on the horizon and it will be huge when it happens.
They wont take the market untill they can win races at top level. They wont do that till they at the least make a sensored controller. Sensorless is not handcaped by the rules, there is nothing stoping a company making a sensorles motor go just as fast as the novak's. But all the current senorless motor were designed without top level car racing in mind.#
edit - Just wanted to say that you can use a sensorless controller with the novak but afaik no one has had them running good enough. If it can run them then I take back most of what I said. But why would someone use a sensorless controller on a sensored motor when there is a perfectly good sensored esc that elliminates cogging?
kufman
12-20-2005, 08:16 AM
The rules mandate a winding configuration that is not ideal for sensorless technology. It doesn't limit the speed, but it does hamper smooth startup. Sensorless controllers do run good enough for racing, just not using a novak motor. Not being able to run 1 out of 1,000 motors doesn't mean much.
The problem with sensored technology is that there are extra parts in an environment that is not friendly to electronics. The controller fires a coil when the hall sensor tells it to not because the rotor is in the right position. In this way sensored technology has the potential to be less efficient due to tolerances in motor construction.
leomax001
12-20-2005, 10:43 AM
They wont take the market untill they can win races at top level. They wont do that till they at the least make a sensored controller. Sensorless is not handcaped by the rules, there is nothing stoping a company making a sensorles motor go just as fast as the novak's. But all the current senorless motor were designed without top level car racing in mind.#
edit - Just wanted to say that you can use a sensorless controller with the novak but afaik no one has had them running good enough. If it can run them then I take back most of what I said. But why would someone use a sensorless controller on a sensored motor when there is a perfectly good sensored esc that elliminates cogging?
cogging :confused: what :confused:
I'm running a 380C 9T sensorless motor in my B4 with lipo setup (2S 7,4 volt) and (believe me... ;)) the MAMBA-25 esc...... it works flawlessly, start ultra-smooth and you can even proceed at ultra-lower speed without any cogging-shadow.... :D :D
remember that with BL motor the secret is also choosing the right transmission ratio (mine is 12:1 with 84/18 spur/pinion) in order to obtain smooth performances.....
however, thanks to castle.... :D next will be the mamba-maxx.... ;)
SpEEdyBL
12-20-2005, 01:27 PM
I actually ran my novak ss5800 on my mgm 12012 and I was actually surprised how well it ran. I'd say about 75% as smooth as when running the Feigaos. Not only that, the motor ran cooler on the 12012 verses the Super sport esc. For some reason though, the motor had a different power band. It seemed to have slightly less top end, but more torque. Maybe the 10 degrees timing that I was running was less than the fixed timing of the super sport.
The rules mandate a winding configuration that is not ideal for sensorless technology. It doesn't limit the speed, but it does hamper smooth startup. Sensorless controllers do run good enough for racing, just not using a novak motor. Not being able to run 1 out of 1,000 motors doesn't mean much.
Hmm the sensorless evangelists are here then :p.
For the 1 millionth time, the motors rules were designed to keep all the rc car companies happy to get the rules through the door. Maybe they arn't the best rules that they could have been but they are here and that is better than nothing. And if we had left it to the sensorless brigade nothing is what we would of had...
The problem with sensored technology is that there are extra parts in an environment that is not friendly to electronics. The controller fires a coil when the hall sensor tells it to not because the rotor is in the right position. In this way sensored technology has the potential to be less efficient due to tolerances in motor construction.
What on earth are you on about? The esc fires the coild from the accurate position of the rotor by reading the hall sensors.
The problem with senorless is that the motor does not know the position of the rotor unless it is already spinning to generate back emf. So you will never get a perfect launch. The esc just randomly fires the coil until it gets some feed back and then fires the coils at the correct time to get the desired motion.
Why would you choose a motor and esc that loses you a possition on the first straight when you can go sensored?
I think the point you guys are missing is that things are more critical at the top. Besides what top level racers are sponsered by these sensorless esc companies?
chilledoutuk
12-20-2005, 05:29 PM
you only start once unless you cant drive properly then you will probably loose anyways.
It seems to me that novak went sensored ok great but why not use a delta wind oh yeah because that would mean the rules would make sensorless systems legal if there the right dimension.
manufacturers are only every happy if they can make and sell something without any competition from other manufacturers is this what is meant by keeping the rc car companies happy?
you only start once
And this is where many top racers are won and lost.
It seems to me that novak went sensored ok great but why not use a delta wind oh yeah because that would mean the rules would make sensorless systems legal if there the right dimension.
Bob Novak had to adjust the rules to what they are now to get them passed. I'm not commenting on whether they are good or not and what is the point in that anyway? They are here to stay. Get over it.
manufacturers are only every happy if they can make and sell something without any competition from other manufacturers is this what is meant by keeping the rc car companies happy?
No, it was to get BL into sanctioned racing. The reason some of the companies like trinity forced through the changes is because they wanted the motors to be more like brushed motors in their construction. I guess they thought it might be easier for their far eastern suppliers to more over to making brushless motors?? You would need to ask Bob Novak and Roar for clarification.
The rc car maket owns nothing to the airplane motor manufatures anyway. Novak have already proven that the Roar spec rules can enable the construction of a perfectly good motor.
kufman
12-20-2005, 05:56 PM
What on earth are you on about? The esc fires the coild from the accurate position of the rotor by reading the hall sensors.
Yup but if the hall sensors aren't aligned in perfect 120 degree separation or the coils are not aligned, they will not be fired at exactely the right time. This produces more heat in the controller and less overall power.
Why would you choose a motor and esc that loses you a possition on the first straight when you can go sensored?
I have never lost a position on the start of a race due to startup.
Can you tell which car is sensorless, brushless?
http://kufman.com/img/Stuff/car_pics/Race%20Start.wmv
It seems to me that novak went sensored ok great but why not use a delta wind oh yeah because that would mean the rules would make sensorless systems legal if there the right dimension.
I still argue this one with Bob novak. Especially since brushed motors are delta wound. He claims that wye has more torque.
Yup but if the hall sensors aren't aligned in perfect 120 degree separation or the coils are not aligned, they will not be fired at exactely the right time. This produces more heat in the controller and less overall power.
I have never lost a position on the start of a race due to startup.
Can you tell which car is sensorless, brushless?
http://kufman.com/img/Stuff/car_pics/Race%20Start.wmv
Yep the 2nd place car, you can see it hesitate off the line. I had some not so bad starts with the mtroniks and some terrible ones. The worst problem though was when racing indoors if the car snatch a corner and rolled backwards it took ages to get going again :( .
I still argue this one with Bob novak. Especially since brushed motors are delta wound. He claims that wye has more torque.
That's something for another day, if people are upset enough about them then propose a new set of rules and campaign for a change...
scoob
12-20-2005, 06:43 PM
I've run two Novak systems so far and they are great ( sensored ). I am ordering a Mtroniks Genisis pro with a 380c motor to try. I guess I'll find out what the difference is.
ElectricThunder
12-20-2005, 08:47 PM
I don't see why there's such a fuss over sensored vs. sensorless. I'm just happy I don't have to screw with brushes and comms. And as an added bonus, since I use the Novak system, I know I got some great CS backing it (not to say Mtroniks and some other companies don't have great support, but being I live in the US, it's A LOT easier on me, but I haven't had to send anything back yet. YAY!), so I'm happy.
I would like to get the exact reasons as to why wye was chosen over delta, and sensored over sensorless, how the velociti rotors compare to say a feigao rotor, and what Novak has in store for the future though (they already are down to a 5.5 wind, meaning they only have what, 4.5, 3.5, 2.5, and 1.5 winds left, so they gotta have something else cooking on the back burner... :confused: )
danhfvcsd
12-21-2005, 01:50 AM
Besides what top level racers are sponsered by these sensorless esc companies?
How could there be sponsored racers for sensorless systems, if there's no race meets setup to be sponsored at???
Not trying to get into it too much - as i dont really have the background for the arguement -lol- Just thought it should be noted :)
How could there be sponsored racers for sensorless systems, if there's no race meets setup to be sponsored at???
Not trying to get into it too much - as i dont really have the background for the arguement -lol- Just thought it should be noted :)
Exactly.
That's what I'm saying. The roar legal system will become mainstream because that's what the pro's will be running.
abiye
12-21-2005, 02:12 PM
bottom line... this might be fun to us but it all business to the likes of novak... it puts food on bob novaks table... if i was in his position to influence the implementation of brushless motor rules i would make sure that i did whatever was necessary to ensure the future success of my company... in this case makesure i don't invite competetion from people who know how to do this better than me... unfortunately the makers of sensorless motors/esc's don't have that much influence in the racing scene so we're stuck with inferior technology and crappy rules...
and jev, for the millionth time..... sensorless does not mean cogging... my sensorless has NEVER coged once...
THE END
bottom line... this might be fun to us but it all business to the likes of novak... it puts food on bob novaks table... if i was in his position to influence the implementation of brushless motor rules i would make sure that i did whatever was necessary to ensure the future success of my company... in this case makesure i don't invite competetion from people who know how to do this better than me... unfortunately the makers of sensorless motors/esc's don't have that much influence in the racing scene so we're stuck with inferior technology and crappy rules...
I'm very happy with both the build quality and performance of the novak. Your opinion that they are not good at building motors is misguided. Let's also consider another important aspect that many sensorless fans conveniently forget to mention, product suport. Can you buy all the spare parts off the shelf of you local hobby shop?
The main reason I went brushless was to cut long term cost. If I can buy and replace things like rotors and bearings a few years down the line, I can keep the motor runing with top performance indefinately.
and jev, for the millionth time..... sensorless does not mean cogging... my sensorless has NEVER coged once...
That has not been my experience.
Back to the topic of the Tekin:
Any company developing a car specific controller without the option to use a sensored motor is shooting themselves in the foot bigtime.
tcolesen
12-21-2005, 06:33 PM
That has not been my experience.
Back to the topic of the Tekin:
Any company developing a car specific controller without the option to use a sensored motor is shooting themselves in the foot bigtime.
What was the latest version Mtroniks controller that you tried? Their newer ones are VERY smooth...
So, are you saying that Castle Creations is hurting itself by producing the sensorless Mamba Maxx controller? I think not, especially when it comes to monster trucks. The HV-Maxx is nothing compared to sensorless, and there are no other sensored motors in the mainstream market for monster trucks trucks that are sensored. Also, there aren't any sensored 1/18 systems. Go figure.
If someone can make a competition level controller that is sensorless, it will take the market. Schulze is very close with the u-force.
The u-force IS a competition level esc. It produces more overall linear performance than novak's gtb and by far of better build quality - the more reason for carrying a heavier price tag.
----
Don't mean to burst anyones sensored bubble - NOT. If you ever try a U-Force, you will never see the need for sensored brushless systems either from novak or lrp.
We have yet to see a 1000+ Watt sensored BL rc motor
Although to keep away from brushes I may consider sensored if this was the only option available of going brushless.
More hardware = more problems
Keep it within the software, keep it sensorless ;)
-key
Even the MGM 160 controller that I have is very smooth at low speed. I can't get it to cog at all even if I try. It not the greatest controller though. I find that it is not as refined in other aspects.
Rtsbasic
12-22-2005, 07:17 AM
Hmm, I can walk into my LHS and say I want a new motor adapter for my Mtroniks, or a new diode pack, etc and they'll sort it out. But I get it for free if I just phone Mtroniks, so I don't see your point. True enough you can't get replacement rotors or bearings as the motors Mtroniks sell in the UK are non-rebuildable Feigao's, BUT you are not locked into just their motors like you are (for the min, with the exception of the LRP) with Novak.
Cogging is one area you cannot fault most of the latest controllers on. I've driven a U-Force a few times over summer and I didn't notice that cogging. And the guy set it up (with 9 cells) to reach ~60-70mph, so with that sort of gearing cogging would be more evident. Mtroniks controllers, espically the latest ones, have no cogging problems. The older ones sometimes had problems off the line once in a while, they fixed this pretty much in V1.07, they also made slight internal changes to the Pro controller.
Well I guess sensored vs sensorless makes a change from electric vs nitro..:) In spite of everything I've just said, if there was as wide a choice of motors & controllers for sensored as there was for sensorless without some of the dumb rules for the motors (like no delta winding pattern allowed..), I would switch to sensored for at least my touring car. I just cannot see it happening for a long time though.
kufman
12-22-2005, 08:17 AM
Any company developing a car specific controller without the option to use a sensored motor is shooting themselves in the foot bigtime
So far as I can tell, companies like Castle Creations, Lehner, Schulze, and Kontronik have not shot themselves in the foot at all. They became very popular when they made their sensorless systems, where as Aveox lost popularity when they didn't make a sensorless system. Aveox has the best customer serivce and still make a sensored brushless, but nobody is interested anymore.
So far as I can tell, companies like Castle Creations, Lehner, Schulze, and Kontronik have not shot themselves in the foot at all. They became very popular when they made their sensorless systems, where as Aveox lost popularity when they didn't make a sensorless system. Aveox has the best customer serivce and still make a sensored brushless, but nobody is interested anymore.
And how many national and international 1/10th races are they going to win? ;)
scoob
12-22-2005, 11:15 AM
Alot of the guys around here use the u-force and I admit I've not seen any cogging and they seem to be just as smooth as my GTB. The price was the only reason I couldn't go with the u-force/ plett extreme set-up that most run. There's not mush difference on the track between the u-force/plett and GTB 6.5 from what I can tell.
Craps was testing out the GEN PRO and a 380c motor a while back and said it was pretty smooth and that's why I decided to try one out myself.
Not quite the differences are evident the extreme carries a 4-pole config rated at 4500 kv where as the gtb being 6.5.
Not quite the differences are evident the extreme carries a 4-pole config rated at 4500 kv where as the gtb being 6.5.
Not quite sure what you are trying to say here. With the Velocity 6.5 novak motor, the 6.5 refers to the number of winds. Because legal motors all have to be the same it's very easy to compare like for like. Unlike the sensorless motors with masses of unnecessary variations to confuse people.
If the new Tekin can run the Novak motors well without using the sensors I'm all for it. But it the sensors are there I don't see any point in not using them. The extra wire is no problem. If I were to design a esc I would build one that could run the novak with or without the sensor harness, if the harness was not connected it would fall back to sensoless mode.
SpEEdyBL
12-23-2005, 03:19 PM
One way to notice cogging is to try running your car inside a small room of your house where you can't use more than 10% throttle most of the time. I've noticed a difference between sensored and sensorless. There's even a difference between sensored brushless and brushed. Even if you don't notice the difference outside, it's still there. Top notch racers go to great lengths to tune their cars for precision and consistancy and will wan't the most reliable motor control. Also, no one has mentioned 4 cells. The mamba25 would be the best contender for sensorless, but I bet the novak controllers will do better.
Unlike the sensorless motors with masses of unnecessary variations to confuse people.
They are not unnecassary in fact these values are extremely precise and come in handy. Particularly with the wide range of multiple lithium battery setups and the high amp capabilities of sensorless escs.
The Kv and Kt values are common among brushless-motors and are ideal for maintaining the necessary motor spec accuracy. Especially when it comes to selecting the higher WATT outputs (ie. Horsepower) quite a number of brushless sensorless motors produce over their sensored counterparts.
Precision is by far a confusion.
-key
GordonFreeman
12-24-2005, 02:36 AM
Just thought I'd pop in a few thoughts. I ran the Mtroniks Pro and a Novak 8.5 in a 2WD buggy on super high traction track, definite studder problems from start. Ran a Mamba and Fiegao 380 in a 2WD buggy that worked ok but the ESC finally went boom when I let somebody else drive the buggy and it studdered from a start and he didn't understand and held the throttle clamped. Not a bulletproof set-up.
My feeling is that Sensorless works great in some applications (boat, planes, etc) and Sensored works best in high traction applications (carpet sedans, etc)
And I don't think the inaccurate hall sensor thing is valid. If you are talking about a degree or two of manufacturing error, I'd rather take that than having my car sit on the starting line looking like a palsy case. Plus I believe Novak adjusts the timing plate to optimum from the factory.
I've been trying/working sensorless systems now for over three years, and I have yet to find one that works perfectly (for my applications) nor as well and the sensored systems. More information (rotor position) is always better than less information.
Imagine trying to operate a playground swing blindfolded. Now simply attach a buzzer to it. Much easier.
I consider anything outside of the 7.2 nimh - 7.4 lipo range of packs to but specialist only. 99% of 1/10 racing cars are used with 6 cell subc.
The other rising market is the twin pack monster truck. Simple solution is to do what novak did and use a long version of the Roar spec motor.
Keep things simple for the sake of the future of our sport. Sensorless is going to put people off.
They are not unnecassary in fact these values are extremely precise and come in handy. Particularly with the wide range of multiple lithium battery setups and the high amp capabilities of sensorless escs.
The Kv and Kt values are common among brushless-motors and are ideal for maintaining the necessary motor spec accuracy. Especially when it comes to selecting the higher WATT outputs (ie. Horsepower) quite a number of brushless sensorless motors produce over their sensored counterparts.
Precision is by far a confusion.
-key
My feeling is that Sensorless works great in some applications (boat, planes, etc) and Sensored works best in high traction applications (carpet sedans, etc)
Contrary to your feelings there is nothing smoother than a 4-6pole Pletty sensorless motor in combination with a U-Force50 or 75 running on high bite tracks.
Contrary to your feelings there is nothing smoother than a 4-6pole Pletty sensorless motor in combination with a U-Force50 or 75 running on high bite tracks.
You guys can claim all you want, I've had hesitation from standing starts enough to know that it can affect a race. And that was with an Mtroniks with software version 1.07 which people say has less cogging than most sensorless esc.
Keep things simple for the sake of the future of our sport. .
That's correct.
Sensorless is going to put people off.
This is why 90% of brushless rc systems are sensorless.
You guys can claim all you want, I've had hesitation from standing starts enough to know that it can affect a race. And that was with an Mtroniks with software version 1.07 which people say has less cogging than most sensorless esc.
A friend at the local onroad track had an mtroniks genesis pro v1.07/380c combo. The esc had an enormous "kidney" like the gtb less the complicated hardware/wires. Had a chance to drive it and didn't experience any cogging whatsoever.
I still prefer the 4-pole pletty extreme/schultz combination especially when racing on carpet based tracks.
That's correct.
This is why 90% of brushless rc systems are sensorless.
No it isn't.
The reason 90% are sensoless is because aircraft do not need the precise throttle control from 0 rpm that competition cars need. Brushless became popular very early on in aircraft because they is a larger basher market that have a lot of $$ to spend. The majority of the car market that have more money to spend are racers, and they could not use brushless if it was not allowed in the rules. Beside there were no brushless systems deisgned for cars in those days.
I bet that the 10% that are sensored are all novaks and used in cars... And once sensored brushless takes over in the racing world there will probably be 50% sensored systems, all used in cars.
A friend at the local onroad track had an mtroniks genesis pro v1.07/380c combo. The esc had an enormous "kidney" like the gtb less the complicated hardware/wires. Had a chance to drive it and didn't experience any cogging whatsoever.
I still prefer the 4-pole pletty extreme/schultz combination especially when racing on carpet based tracks.
If you think the sensor wire harness is complicated you might be better off riding horses
No it isn't.
It's reality.
I bet that the 10% that are sensored are all novaks and used in cars...
If you think the sensor wire harness is complicated you might be better off riding horses
Close, 10% is for giving up on sensitive wires to go bull ridin'.
kufman
12-24-2005, 02:25 PM
I didn't say that sensorless was better in every way, I was trying to say that they are not a waste of time. Until the GTB came out, sensored was not a viable option in open mod club races where roar rules are not strictly enforced. For me, sensorless was cheaper because I run the same controller in many different cars and trucks. From 6 cells to 12, from sedan to e-maxx.
I consider anything outside of the 7.2 nimh - 7.4 lipo range of packs to but specialist only. 99% of 1/10 racing cars are used with 6 cell subc.
I see your point for this . But since the majority of RC sales is non racing. I would consider the racing community to be a specialized activity in RC.
Novak designed the GTB to compete at the highest level in RC racing. I think if they could have done this with a sensorless ESC, you would see the rules tailored in that direction.
In RC racing, it's about application to the specifics of the track your running on, not the most powerful system. At my local on-road track, all but one sensorless systems is gone. Replaced by the new sensored systems. I'm not implying that the sensorless systems are not competitive, ( we are taking a few 10th's of a seconds difference here) but that most driver's feel more connected to their cars with the sensored system.
I would have to agree with Jev. A manufacturer who designs a system tailored for racing needs to have a sensored system to compete at national levels.
Although it surprised me that Tekin is going for the general RC community with their Brushless (since they are well known in the racing scene). I think down the road the majority of the brushless systems sold to the general public will be sensorless.
My 2 cents
A manufacturer who designs a system tailored for racing needs to have a sensored system to compete at national levels.
For clarificaton - a sensorless esc manufacturer who designs a system tailored for racing does not require recreating a sensored system to compete at "national" levels.
For example, if one decides to compete in sactioned "national" levels using a competition built sensorless ESC they will not encounter any restrictions provided the motor it runs on falls within existing narrow regulations.
In addition, sensorless systems as well as Lithium based batteries were built without the economically driven “national” race rules in mind. In fact they are intended to provide far greater enhancements to rc applications than what “international level” racers currently experience. This allows for greater flexibility within research and development at the manufacturing level without altering its design to suit the questionable regulations.
Perhaps CastleCreations and Tekin may be implementing a <think outside the box> strategy in order keep the knowledge wheel turning with the proven efficiency of sensorless brushless and Lipo technologies - addressing both racing and non-racing communities.
-key
kufman
12-26-2005, 10:05 AM
Yep the 2nd place car, you can see it hesitate off the line. I had some not so bad starts with the mtroniks and some terrible ones. The worst problem though was when racing indoors if the car snatch a corner and rolled backwards it took ages to get going again
Yup, that was my car, but it didn't hesitate. I don't use traction compound on that outdoor track since it was very dirty off the main line. I was spinning all 4 wheels off the line. I got off the main line later in that run and spun out in the next two turns because of the junk on my tires. Had to make up for it by turning 15.8's when the rest were running 16.3's. Finished 3rd only because the announcer didn't call "last lap" so I took my normal line down the straight and 3rd got around me right at the finish line. I was taking a wide line down the stright and into the turn because of bumps in the middle of the straight.
In addition, sensorless systems as well as Lithium based batteries were built without the economically driven “national” race rules in mind. In fact they are intended to provide far greater enhancements to rc applications than what “international level” racers currently experience. This allows for greater flexibility within research and development at the manufacturing level without altering its design to suit the questionable regulations.
Perhaps CastleCreations and Tekin may be implementing a <think outside the box> strategy in order keep the knowledge wheel turning with the proven efficiency of sensorless brushless and Lipo technologies - addressing both racing and non-racing communities.
-key That's a good point, I'm all for advancement and innovation. You will start seeing classes created around Lipo technology (longer mains). It's happened already at a local off-road track here. (10 min. mains in mod buggy and truck).
As far as sensorless systems go, i still believe that sensored will be more popular with the 1/10 -1/12 scale racing community. Its just easier for a guy running brushed motors to transition to a sensored system, (which feels closer to the brushed motor) than the sensorless that are availabe now.
In all other applications the sensorless will be dominate. Mini's, Micro's, helios, boats. Also high powered sensorless systems will flourish more in high power applications. MT, 1/8 scale off road and onroad. Company's like hacker, lehner, Shultze...etc. just need more exposure in the car mags.
I agree, Castlecreations became very popular with the 1/18 scale boom. Now Tekin is jumping in that arena. Where is hacker? The Mamba looks similar to systems Hacker already had available in the helios market! Until they show more interest, my money is going to companies like Tekin and C&C.
It will be interesting to see how the 1/10 scale systems fom Tekin and Castlecreations perform against the Novak and LRP products. If they can design a sensorless systems that works in all markets it just means others will have to step up. Which in turn benefits everyone.
kschauwe
12-27-2005, 12:11 AM
http://www.teamtekin.com/
Looks like he'll be running the new 1/10 brushless soon :D
GordonFreeman
12-27-2005, 07:03 AM
Just started running my 5.5 GTB in a B4 with a 6600 mAh 2S LiPo, nutty power. Any sensorless BL please come out to challenge (RCP indoor dirt, Madison, WI) and I will buy you lunch if your sensorless buggy can beat this GTB buggy.
Takers?....didn't think so.
saskhiker
12-27-2005, 08:26 AM
Just started running my 5.5 GTB in a B4 with a 6600 mAh 2S LiPo, nutty power. Any sensorless BL please come out to challenge (RCP indoor dirt, Madison, WI) and I will buy you lunch if your sensorless buggy can beat this GTB buggy.
Takers?....didn't think so.
Too bad I don't live a bit closer I could use a free lunch. I have run my Schulze UForce 75 with a plettenberg extreme in a touring car against a velocity 5.5 and I could pull him on the straights pretty easily and I am not even geared up all the way lol. I even scared one of our club guys running an 8 Turn when I gained 4ft on a 60ft straight lol. Sensorless systems are capable of generating more power but in offroad the problem is actually having enough traction to use it. I use mine in my T4 but it is nearly useless when I run my Lehner 5300 in it. Way too much power to control but the Exteme is sure a nice match. Maybe Craps lives a bit closer and will be able to collect on that free lunch offer lol.
GordonFreeman
12-27-2005, 08:35 AM
Somebody (ROAR) needs to get thier nut sack out of the ice water and just let us run all this stuff together, brushed, brushless, sensored, sensorless, LiPo, Nimhs whatever, geez.
If anybody ever makes it this way (Madison) I have a B4, 1/12 scale and an open foam sedan just sitting here waiting to buy somebody lunch. ;) :o
As far as sensorless systems go, i still believe that sensored will be more popular with the 1/10 -1/12 scale racing community. Its just easier for a guy running brushed motors to transition to a sensored system, (which feels closer to the brushed motor) than the sensorless that are availabe now.
Au Contraire, sensorless systems are holding their ground in all areas of rc including 10th and 12th scales. From a brushed feeling perspective the ideal systems are brushless units running on quad+ (4 to 6) pole motors. Unfortanetly those motors can only run on sensorless escs.
With regards to the high end portion of sensorless electronics designed for 12th scale and below every string of detail is looked at in terms of car/motor/battery/track adjustability. The more reason why they are capable of delivering a wider range of useful setup functions currently unavailable on sensored and brushed units.
As a result LRP/Novak have yet to step up to Schultz's brushless standards and is to our advantage the bar has been set so high to begin with. This certainly adds fuel to the competition and an air of awarness for the upcoming Tekin and MambaMax units.