Lehner Basic / Genesis Pro? [Archive]

___rollin___

01-07-2006, 10:36 PM

I am consider gettin the Genesis Pro if my budget can allow of it. I used to run a 18.61k in my rustler with the 5300 and was pretty impressive but hate usin a BEC, and the 18.61k isnt in a case and isnt waterproof, I was also lookin at the Truck but It seems that all it is, is the pro with a beast of a heatsink from what I see. This is basically a bashing setup and MIGHT race it a bit. But I overgear it and stuff so is the truck neccesary. I could just run a fan on the pro and it would be like the truck plus its smaller, right? I also need to get some batteries, my packs and charger isnt very good. I have some peak 2400's that came in a 2 pair pack. I actually killed one, as in the battery started smoking heavily. So I think I need a higher quality pack, lithiums seem too expensive.And I called pro-match and they said a custom 10 cell SxS matched gp3300 would be 77 bucks. I cant soldier very good. I just need the price to be down for everything. I mean I am selling all my rc's to get another rusty for my dad and run a brushed in his and a bl in mine, and the only money I have is what I sell . A Nitro 4-tec, A Old T-maxx, maybe my 18.61k, maybe my mamba powered Rc18t. So whats ur guyses opinions?

Thanks a lot

chilledoutuk

01-07-2006, 11:40 PM

Well I have the mtroniks genesis sport and it runs a c408s without any overheating problems at all.

The genesis pro is capable of running a feigoa 540 6s without overheating therefore with one of the new feigoa 380 motors with integrated heatsink you should not have any overheating problems at all.

as to battery packs there are a number of online retailers such as

www.maxamps.com
www.cheapbatterypacks.com

Rtsbasic

01-08-2006, 02:55 PM

I ran a Basic 5300 in my truck/touring car a lot a few months ago (this was the first decent brushless kit I had, so it got ran back to back a lot). I never had any real problems with this combo, it easily handles the motor. As chilledoutuk says it can handle a 540 6s which sucks a lot more amps than a basic 5300.

I have both a Pro & Truck controller, I suspect the truck uses slightly different internal components, and the software is definately a bit different, it is a bit more than just a big heatsink glued on. For the price difference get the Truck if you plan to run high voltage/high amp draw setups a lot.

ygguB naM

01-08-2006, 03:18 PM

Don't get Maxamps, I tried 'em.

tcolesen

01-08-2006, 03:41 PM

Don't get Maxamps, I tried 'em.

Care to explain?

chilledoutuk

01-08-2006, 04:56 PM

I find maxamps to be very reasonable in there pricing and there products are also very good.
Has anyone tried there lipo packs made with 4000mah lipo cells yet?

aqualato1

01-08-2006, 10:53 PM

Maxamps has good customer service also. I got a new 8000 mah lipo from them for x-mas but sent it back for the upgraded lipo balancer connector and they gladly exchanged it and for $3.50 they added the balancer connector. Should get it back any time now.

ygguB naM

01-09-2006, 01:39 AM

Care to explain?
I ordered two rc car li-po battery packs for my rc10b4. Two or three weeks later I emailed maxxamps and asked why my order didn't come in. They told me they were out of the cells that make that pack because they replaced them with a different size cell. Then they asked me if I still want a pack, I said yes (the pack still fit with some foam spacers)and they sent it.

When I got my order I made sure it worked by hooking it up to my car, so far so good. The next day I charged one of the packs and put it in my car. First impression, it was insane, the power was great. So after a few 50mph passes(for like 5min), I checked battery and the shrink rap was melted and it ballooned a little bit. The same thing happend to the other one. At this time I was pretty pissed considering I just spent $120. I didn't over discharge the packs or anything. The maxxamps guy told me the pack could be out of balance.

Later on I went to a hobby shop and the li-po expert said they were badly put together. So I told maxxamps I wanted a refund and they agreed. I mailed the busted batteries back. A few weeks later I called and they didn't get it, months go by... after calling them about 10 times and checking with the post office I gave up. I don't know if maxxamps is lying or the batteries blew the postal van sky high. Well, $120 down the drain.

TimisTim

01-09-2006, 02:44 AM

2 Lipo packs for $120?!?

Those would have to be a pretty low capacity cell. Something along the lines of 2000-2500mAh? Those might not have had the amperage capability that your buggy needed. If those capacities are right you would have had about 30amps continuous to work with.

chilledoutuk

01-09-2006, 03:43 AM

what was the total mah of the battery you used in your car as maxamps own packs are only rated at 12c for constant discharge.

The pack i use is a kokam 15c 4000mah pack and it barley gets warm i would really like to know the specs of the pack you used.

tcolesen

01-09-2006, 08:43 AM

What was the temperature of the pack when it ballooned?

Maxamps is actually known for using quality when making their packs. This is probably the first time I have heard of someone saying otherwise, but you yourself did not check it.

ElectricThunder

01-09-2006, 02:28 PM

I ordered two rc car li-po battery packs for my rc10b4. Two or three weeks later I emailed maxxamps and asked why my order didn't come in. They told me they were out of the cells that make that pack because they replaced them with a different size cell. Then they asked me if I still want a pack, I said yes (the pack still fit with some foam spacers)and they sent it.

When I got my order I made sure it worked by hooking it up to my car, so far so good. The next day I charged one of the packs and put it in my car. First impression, it was insane, the power was great. So after a few 50mph passes(for like 5min), I checked battery and the shrink rap was melted and it ballooned a little bit. The same thing happend to the other one. At this time I was pretty pissed considering I just spent $120. I didn't over discharge the packs or anything. The maxxamps guy told me the pack could be out of balance.

Later on I went to a hobby shop and the li-po expert said they were badly put together. So I told maxxamps I wanted a refund and they agreed. I mailed the busted batteries back. A few weeks later I called and they didn't get it, months go by... after calling them about 10 times and checking with the post office I gave up. I don't know if maxxamps is lying or the batteries blew the postal van sky high. Well, $120 down the drain.
I can think of at least three reasons that this could've happend. 1) you plugged the batteries in when you got them, before you charged them (may be minor, but hey, maybe it could unbalance the cells). 2) The capacity of the lipos. What is the capacity of each of the two packs that you bought and their discharge rates? (chilledoutuk said 12c, is he correct?). 3) What setup were you running? If it was a high amperage/low voltage setup, combined with a low discharge rate/capacity, expect things to get hot and destroyed.

chilledoutuk

01-09-2006, 04:04 PM

from my knowledge the packs maxamps sell under there own branding have had the following stats for quite a while.

12c constant discharge
16c 10 sec burst

ygguB naM

01-09-2006, 04:17 PM

The pack I used was a 7.4v 3000mah 4cell series/parallel and I think it was rated for 40-50amps constant discharge, and they also said that pack was great for 1/10 scale cars. I don't have a temp gun but the pack wasn't to hot to touch. And $60 for a crappy li-po ain't cheap.

ygguB naM

01-09-2006, 04:30 PM

I'm running a Trinity (brushed) 10turn motor that's in good working order and a no motor limit ESC. When I got the batteries I ran the motor a little bit to make sure they worked, but they had plenty of charge and ran at full or almost full power on the ground.

tcolesen

01-09-2006, 05:23 PM

In trying to find the cause, you still have not answered my question:

What was the temperature of the pack when it ballooned?

ygguB naM

01-09-2006, 08:17 PM

In trying to find the cause, you still have not answered my question:
I already told you, I don't have a temp gun so I don't know, it was cool enough to hold but it was still a little hot.

TimisTim

01-10-2006, 02:26 AM

I was just cruising maxamps and looking at the packs you are using (7.4v 3000mAh). You didn't read the paragraph describing the pack did you?

"Here is a great way to get you started in Lipoly Packs for your RC Car. This pack will work great in the 24-30 amp range for stock RC Cars. Only use this pack for very mild setups. Contact the manufacturer to confirm that it will not be pulling more than 30 amp bursts or you can damage this pack. It is less than half the weight of a NIMH pack and will make your car scream!"

That is and exact copy of what it says. Now with that said a 10 turn modified motor draws ALOT more than 30 amp bursts. Maybe in the neighborhood of 60-80amp bursts in a ST. So it really isn't their problem. You should have hooked up both of your packs in parallel and you wouldn't have had the problem because it would double your discharge capabilities. Its just a pet peeve of mine to have people bad mouth a reputable company before they get their facts straight. Oh yeah and the packs are only $43, and thats a good deal in my book.

chilledoutuk

01-10-2006, 07:43 AM

hey timistim i am not sure but from what he describes i think he would have used this pack:

Lipoly 3000mah 2S3P 7.4V
this is made with 1000mah cells
this has a constant discharge of 45 amps constant and 60a burst.

personally this is still too low a constant current for my liking when using a 10turn modified in situations when you have a lot of grip.

ygguB naM

01-10-2006, 02:11 PM

I just thought of something, the pack I was suppose to get (made of four 1600mah li-po cells wired half series half parallel) had plenty of discharge, but the pack that replaced the pack I thought I was getting just don't cut it. BTW I think 3300 nimh batteries are rated for 35amps.

Nabors

01-10-2006, 02:59 PM

I just thaught of something, the pack I was suppose to get (made of four 1600mah li-po cells wired half siries half parallel) had plenty of discharge, but the pack that replaced the pack I thaught I was getting just don't cut it. BTW I think 3300 nimh batteries are rated for 35amps.

But a GP3300 wouldnt have any problems doing a 100+amp burst that would kill the lipos you had.

ygguB naM

01-10-2006, 03:40 PM

But a GP3300 wouldnt have any problems doing a 100+amp burst that would kill the lipos you had.
The li-po's had plenty of amp's, they had more power off the line than any other battery I used. The guy from maxxamps said the packs could be out of balance from the factory.

chilledoutuk

01-10-2006, 07:04 PM

oh dear oh dear please dont tell me you thought that you could derive the capabilitys of lipo packs directly from your experience with Nickle based rechargeable packs!!!

You seemedly thought that because nimh is rated for 35 amps that a 45 amp lipo pack would have no problems your ignorance to the difference between lipo and Nickel cell technology is astounding.

Its well known that lipo packs like most batterys canot limit the current they provide making it very easy for a muppet to ruin them up by massively exceeding the c rating of the cells when under load.

It is well documented that lipo cells dont like to deliver high currents and when a manufacturure specifies 60 amps for 10 seconds they mean exactly that and no more. (would be nice to know the time between the 10sec bursts though)

maxamps lipo cells are not the best but they are cheap and should be treated as such when choosing cells for an application.

I use two 2s1p kokam 2000mah packs in parrallel to power my mtroniks genesis and my hacker c408s. These are 15c meaning a constant current of 60amps and 80amps peak.

tcolesen

01-10-2006, 09:15 PM

I don't think this has been asked yet, but were you using a low-voltage cutoff device? A Lipo that drops under 3v/cell has a much greater chance of being ruined than one that stays above 3v/cell...

ygguB naM

01-10-2006, 11:26 PM

It was a 4cell 7.4 volt li-po pack that was made with FOUR 1600MAH CELLS IN SERIES/PARALLEL CONFIGURATION AND RATED FOR LIKE 50AMPS. And they said it was a great 1/10 scale option and thats it.

tcolesen

01-11-2006, 12:01 AM

Did you use a LVC device? That is probably the most important companion for a Lipo pack.

We can pretty much rule out the high discharge rate as a cause at this point.

ygguB naM

01-11-2006, 12:05 AM

What's a LVC device?

tcolesen

01-11-2006, 12:11 AM

ygguB naM

01-11-2006, 01:42 AM

It stands for low-voltage cutoff. Basically, it keeps the pack from dropping its voltage lower than 3volts per cell. This is VERY important for Lipos, as permanent damage can result from their voltage dropping to low. I think one of my puffed (permanently damaged) Lipo cells was caused by the voltage dropping too low (from a non-functioning LVC).
I wasn't running one of those but I did stop running the car as soon as it slowed down. The car was doing about 50mph and suddenly slowed down to like 20mph.

tcolesen

01-11-2006, 08:25 AM

I have a feeling that your problem may have to do with that slowing down. Your Lipo pack probably dropped its voltage too low under the load that was on it.

chilledoutuk

01-11-2006, 12:03 PM

yes if you dont have LVC on your controller then you need to be very carefull not to run down the battery or perminant damage could ocure.

Rtsbasic

01-11-2006, 01:03 PM

Sounds to me like rather permanent damage did occur ;)

TimisTim

01-11-2006, 03:14 PM

^^^^LOL

Yeah I have ran down a pack to the "dumping" stage. I hear some of the guys that were running with Craps in the 20min mains where they used 8000mAh batts used this method of noticing the drop off of power without a LVC. It might be OK if you make sure to monitor run times and how your car is running. My batt ran down to somewhere around 9.5-9.6v (in a 3S) so it was low but not to low for the cells.

ElectricThunder

01-11-2006, 04:14 PM

A 10 turn motor with a 3000mah pack rated at about 12c constant discharge... A 10 turn motor can spike over 100 amps I'd guess on a high traction surface, especially on acceleration. So yeah, I'd say your setup way exceeded the batteries capabilities. Also, running it down to where it starts to "dump" isn't good to do with lipos. I mean, yeah, you can, but you're risking destroying the batteries. So from what your setup was like, and the kind of battery you were running, you probably are at fault, not maxamps, unless they did come unbalanced from the factory or were subjects of poor craftsmanship.

BTW, the reason a lipo has more power off the line than a NiMH is because the lipo will hold it's voltage much better than a NiMH. Voltage drop on a lipo is much less than on a NiMH, and more voltage that can be supplied to the motor means a faster motor.

ygguB naM

01-11-2006, 05:06 PM

TimisTim

01-11-2006, 05:23 PM

ygguB naM

01-11-2006, 08:37 PM

You just admitted to it dumping on you, and not running a LVC device.

"I wasn't running one of those but I did stop running the car as soon as it slowed down. The car was doing about 50mph and suddenly slowed down to like 20mph."

So I would say it was you that was at fault. On top of that you were doing speed runs on a ten turn motor with a battery that is not capable of handling that type of current. You should have done the math before the purchase or the initial run.

A 3000mAh battery at 12C constant discharge is only capable of 36 amps.
Your not reading my posts, my packs were rated for like 50amps constant dicharge, and I read that your supposed to stop running the car when it loses power and the battery will be fine. When I was running li-ions in my xmod I just stopped the car when it slowed down and the cells were fine.

tcolesen

01-11-2006, 08:53 PM

I read that your supposed to stop running the car when it loses power and the battery will be fine. When I was running li-ions in my xmod I just stopped the car when it slowed down and the cells were fine.

Where did you read this? No vendor of Lipos in their right mind would say that's okay, as they could be sued heavily from damage caused by this. It is NOT okay to let Lipos drop low in voltage.
Li-Ion is a different technology, and maybe you got lucky with them.

___rollin___

01-11-2006, 09:01 PM

this is hilarious,
ygguB naM doesnt even know what pack he is running, he says that its rated for like 50 amps, and maxamps can say whatever thay want. They could say that a 1mah ni-cad gives at least 1 hour of run time on a 10 turn. But its all crap what they say you need to get your info from a credible source, like the very smart people on here, theres a bunch of em.
And about the actuall, purpose of the thread, other than arguing with that one guy.What do you think, about that setup though, and ygguB naM dont give any what your idea of "advice" is please. Its all human error!

ElectricThunder

01-11-2006, 09:49 PM

When I talked to the maxxamps guy, he said they probably were unbalanced from the factory. He never said there was anything wrong with my setup or that I over dicharged the packs. When I was shoping for the batteries the description said great 1/10 scale option, if it can't handle a 10turn motor it should say so.
It's common sense that a 10 turn motor will pull more than 50 amps cont. and more than a 60 amp surge (way more!). Any somewhat experienced RC'er (for lack of a better term) would know that. Lipos are not technology to screw with. They're dangerous if abused, just as NiMh is or NiCD. You probably shouldn't rely on just maxamps as a source. They want to sell you something, so of course they'll try to say it's fine. And in truth, it was fine...provided that you would have ran for no more than 2 minutes at a time probably (but then again, a 6000Kv motor on 20 volts will work too, but the key question is: "how long?").

ygguB naM

01-11-2006, 09:52 PM

I got the Team Orion li-po for Christmas and it says, "NOTE: If your electronic speed controller allows, set the cut-off to 6.0v. If not, stop driving when your motor loses power, remove the battery from the car, and recharge it. NEVER let the battery rest for a few minutes and then continue driving without first re-charging."

ygguB naM

01-11-2006, 10:03 PM

tcolesen

01-11-2006, 10:16 PM

It's common sense that a 10 turn motor will pull more than 50 amps cont. and more than a 60 amp surge (way more!). Any somewhat experienced RC'er (for lack of a better term) would know that. Lipos are not technology to screw with. They're dangerous if abused, just as NiMh is or NiCD. You probably shouldn't rely on just maxamps as a source. They want to sell you something, so of course they'll try to say it's fine. And in truth, it was fine...provided that you would have ran for no more than 2 minutes at a time probably (but then again, a 6000Kv motor on 20 volts will work too, but the key question is: "how long?").

Hate to say it (to go against you), but Maxamps would not overrate their products to make a sale.

I got the Team Orion li-po for Christmas and it says, "NOTE: If your electronic speed controller allows, set the cut-off to 6.0v. If not, stop driving when your motor loses power, remove the battery from the car, and recharge it. NEVER let the battery rest for a few minutes and then continue driving without first re-charging."

Those cells are different. Kokam cells are known for being more tolerant of these things (that's why they're heavier). Besides, Maxamps never said that this method would work. To the point, your battery is damaged, and it's quite unlikely that it is the fault of Maxamps (unless it really was a balance issue).

ygguB naM

01-11-2006, 10:46 PM

Hate to say it (to go against you), but Maxamps would not overrate their products to make a sale.

Those cells are different. Kokam cells are known for being more tolerant of these things (that's why they're heavier). Besides, Maxamps never said that this method would work. To the point, your battery is damaged, and it's quite unlikely that it is the fault of Maxamps (unless it really was a balance issue).
There still the same basic chemistry and when I said the second pack ballooned too I made a mistake, the second pack's shrink rap melted but it didn't balloon. It could be because I stopped running the car sooner.

tcolesen

01-11-2006, 10:49 PM

There is enough of a difference in the chemistry to allow the Kokams to be able to take 12v+ (per cell) without flaming out, unlike most other Lipos that would probably go into flames at 5v.

So the 2nd pack got hot enough to melt the shrinkwrap? If that's the case, that pack shouldn't be used anymore...

ygguB naM

01-11-2006, 10:58 PM

tcolesen

01-12-2006, 08:41 AM

Sounds like a cell or two may have had a pretty big problem. Let's just put it this way: those packs aren't meant to be used without LVC, and could be permanently damaged at this point.

ygguB naM

01-12-2006, 01:54 PM

Sounds like a cell or two may have had a pretty big problem. Let's just put it this way: those packs aren't meant to be used without LVC, and could be permanently damaged at this point.
Maxxamps never said anything about needing an LVC on the discription of the batteries or over the phone. I think all maxxamps cared about was selling me there crap.

ElectricThunder

01-12-2006, 03:43 PM

Hate to say it (to go against you), but Maxamps would not overrate their products to make a sale.

Meh.:p Never dealt with them, so in all honesty, I don't know how their customer service is and what not. I don't think they necessarily overrate their stuff, but maybe it was possible whoever he talked to may have not known about lipos as much as they should've. Although, from what I've heard about maxamps, that's probably a rarity, as they seem to be a good company. There could have been a breakdown in communication though, so no one knows for sure.

ygguB naM- an LVC is cheap insurance, and if you ever decide to run lipos again, definitely use them. BTW, outta curiosity, were you doing speed runs with this 10 turn/lipo setup (as in, overgeared a bit more)?

ygguB naM

01-12-2006, 06:44 PM

Meh.:p Never dealt with them, so in all honesty, I don't know how their customer service is and what not. I don't think they necessarily overrate their stuff, but maybe it was possible whoever he talked to may have not known about lipos as much as they should've. Although, from what I've heard about maxamps, that's probably a rarity, as they seem to be a good company. There could have been a breakdown in communication though, so no one knows for sure.

ygguB naM- an LVC is cheap insurance, and if you ever decide to run lipos again, definitely use them. BTW, outta curiosity, were you doing speed runs with this 10 turn/lipo setup (as in, overgeared a bit more)?
With the first pack it was one tooth to high but on the scond pack I geared down a tooth and it was perfect. I got the team orion li-po but I didn't finish the first run because I hit a curb at about 50mph, the team orion li-po gives the motor more torque than the maxxamps batteries.

ElectricThunder

01-12-2006, 07:07 PM

With the first pack it was one tooth to high but on the scond pack I geared down a tooth and it was perfect. I got the team orion li-po but I didn't finish the first run because I hit a curb at about 50mph, the team orion li-po gives the motor more torque than the maxxamps batteries.
The kokam batteries in the orion pack have a higher discharge rate I believe. That, and it's also a 4800mah pack as opposed to about 3000-3300mah which is what the maxamps packs were. Combine those two factors and it'll be more powerful, and just all around better.

___rollin___

01-12-2006, 08:37 PM

well, could it have been just faulty from maxxamps, or just incorrect usage, or a combination of both. I wont get in on this because I know nothing about lithium cells. Or very little at the most.

ElectricThunder

01-12-2006, 09:00 PM

well, could it have been just faulty from maxxamps, or just incorrect usage, or a combination of both. I wont get in on this because I know nothing about lithium cells. Or very little at the most.
Here's my super quick summary:

1) They're better than NiMH
2) They require a cool nifty charger
3) They can explode if improperly handled (like every other battery... ;) )
4) They have freakish capacities
5) They're shiny...

I'm sure there's more....but I figured 5 is just a good number..plus I don't feel like making the list longer..:D [/end stupid post]

tcolesen

01-12-2006, 10:03 PM

The kokam batteries in the orion pack have a higher discharge rate I believe. That, and it's also a 4800mah pack as opposed to about 3000-3300mah which is what the maxamps packs were. Combine those two factors and it'll be more powerful, and just all around better.

Right. The discharge rate of a pack is the best thing to go by, and in this case, the Orion Lipo is rated at about twice as many amps.

TimisTim

01-13-2006, 01:12 AM

I'll start again...

6. They put out more power as they heat up.
7. Most of the nitro guys haven't seen 'em and get nervous when I wave mine around.
8. I can cram 12 sub-c cells worth of power in my batt tray without "customizing" it.
9. 4 Lipo cells weight how much?????!!!!
10. My girlfriend can call me a dork all she wants, I still get that misty look in my eye when I stare at my shiny new battery.

scoob

01-13-2006, 02:22 AM

yggub naM- I think you just got in over your head and were mislead by the "great pack for 1/10" statement. It sounds to me like your setup exceeded the current draw levels of the pack. We race with TP8000 packs around here all the time, I don't use an LVC but put lots of care into monitoring runtime. I've seen packs overdischarged and although it damages the cells performance capabilty (capacity, voltage, ect.) I haven't seen it cause balooning and heat. From my experience balooning and heat come from either overcharging or pulling more amps than the pack is capable of providing safely.

From your discription of the packs, a 10 turn mod doing speed runs would roast them.

Everyone makes mistakes and unfortunately with lipo, mistakes can be costly. When you plan to buy a lipo put plenty of reaserch into it first. This forum is a great place to ask about your setup and if your intended lipo will sufice.

Hope you have better luck in the future buddy.