Pletty shadow/ Schulze vs. GTB 4.5R

[Rocksalt]

No contest, the Novak 4.5R hands down smokes the pletty.

I've got a Schulze U-Force 75 and a Pletty Shadow. My GTB 4.5R is in for service :( After I sent in the GTB I hooked up the pletty and strapped a GPS to the wing of my XXX-4 G+. 40.3 MPH. The acceleration of the Pletty is NOTHING like the 4.5R. I estimate the 4.5R is 30% more powerfull and reaching speeds of 50MPH on a 8000mah thunderpower Lipo. I ran the Schulze/Pletty with a 17 pinion and 92 spur. The 4.5R I used a 15pinion and 94 spur. The pletty is tempign at 137 after hard running and the Schulze is temping at 117. I installed a fan on the Schulze(novaks fan, lol) to keep things in check. The Schulze does not have the acceleration the 4.5R has. I can't even get the buggy to wheelie with it. The 4.5R however will wheelie from a dead stop with heated road hawgs. half throttle and mash it, the 4.5 will roast the tires and take off. The 4.5R will also launch the car from a standstill to get over bumps and jumps quite easilly. I can't see ANYONE trying to use the 4.5R in a 2wd applicaiton. If it weren't for the 4WD this thing would be uncontrollable. In fact, when you try and drive it like a 2wd the rear end is all over the place.. Mash the throttle and the front tires pull the car straight and through just about any terrian. I was even having problems with air getting under the XXX-4 and lifting the front under hard acceleration. Full throttle over a bump means wheelie city. Batteries are only reaching about 98deg. with the 4.5R.

I don't know if the 66ms. from 0-100% power in the schulze is what is holding it back on takeoff. It's the fastest accel ramp I can program in it. With the 4.5R I have to program in throttle curves to tame that beast. She's one wicked motor!!

On a side note... I don't think you could race the 4.5R this way... The schulze would be a better fit as the accel rate can be changed to make it more driveable on a track.

Fun factor: 4.5R!!!!!! Backyard bashing, jumps, grass, street, hands down the 4.5R wins. Drag brake is also much better in the 4.5R, but something that would not keep me from buying another system. There are many other ways to achieve that.

The 4 pole Pletty has minimal cogging, in fact about 0 if you drive faster than about 15% throttle, which most do on any track. The motor is much smaller than the 4,5R. The ESC is almost the same size. The connectors suck on the Schulze, but are very handy for taking apart. They are just not durable. The controller has a nice feature... if you power on the ESC without the radio on, the motor will NOT take off uncontrollably. I wish others would catch on to this as 'things happen' when dealing with children. Imagine trying to catch a car out of control with a 4.5R in it!!! YIKES

I tried a 3300mah nimh pack on the 4.5R, about 10 minutes hard runing. 8000mah Lipo and I get 53 minutes "playing around" the streets, grass, gravel. Hard running is something like 30-40 minutes of eye watering adrenalin.

As I sit here... I lust to get my 4.5R back!

GTB 0, 4,5R 1
Schulze 1, pletty .5


What can I put on the schulze that will compare to the 4.5R, but the controller can handle?? I am thinking of a lower kv motor with 11+ volts. Plz help!

[joostin421]

have you tried gearing the pletty differently; how about 15/87 or something?

justin

[starluckrc]

Voltage will be the key. I'm sure the larger rotor and windings of the Pletty is sucking volage down some. I would expect similar results to the 4.5R from a 380C-9T on 3S lipoly based on some results posted here.

[Flyojumper]

When you say you have to "tame" the 4.5r by adjusting the throttle curve, can you go into more details on how you do that? Can you adjust this on the GTB or is it a function on your radio? Novak doesn't list the throttle curve as being adjustable on the GTB, just min drive, min brake, dragbrake, deadband.

[Rocksalt]

I have to program a curve, so to speak.. I have a speed setting in the radio that is adjustable from low to medium and from medium to high. When you snap the throttle in a range from 0-50% it delays the position of the trigger at speed you specify, to 50%. Then it does the same thing from 50% to 100%. It takes the twitchyness out of throttle response. Some radios have an exponential setting. The radio I use is a Kopropo Mars-I(might be a 1, who knows). Has the same functions for steering so then when you are high speed driving you don't overcompensate and toss the car out of control. You can turn on or off these functions as you are driving by a pushbutton on the piston grip. Normally I would not use these features of the radio, but the 4.5 needs to be tamed!

In actuality, the shadow performs just like the 4.5, but with the throttle curve turned on(Track driving) and less top end. The shadow is probably very good for racing as the power of the 4.5 cannot be used under those conditions.

I had a blast with it today. I took the gearing down to 15/94 and it had better punch, just not ripping the tires loose like the 4.5. The shadow is definatly easier on the car, lol. I like them both!

It seems to be getting hotter with a lower pinion teeth, wierd.

[tcolesen]

If it is getting hotter with a smaller pinion, that just means that you are moving it from its best efficiency range. Try gearing up again, and try using larger pinions than what you used before, to see what performance you can get from it.

[ElectricThunder]

I think because Plettys (at least the shadow and the extreme) are 4 pole motors, they "like" taller gearing, and can handle it (more poles, more torque). Like tcoleson said, you're actually undergearing it when you move down in pinion teeth most likely.

[Rocksalt]

I don't quite understand the reasoning behind the motor getting hotter with an undergeared situation. There is less friction on the motor, why would this happen this way? I like to drive it much better undergeared.

I will try to add more teeth to the pinion and see what happens. I just have a feeling it's going to be to soft.

[Craps]

Comparing the Novak GTB ESC to the Schulze U-Force 75 ESC is like comparing a row boat to a speed boat. The Schulze can take alot more heat and abuse than the Novak, it can run more motors (sensorless BL), it is completely PC programmable and you run alot larger pinion gears on the motor used with the Schulze than can be used by the Novak!

I know the Schulze is expensive, but you get what you pay for!

Have you tried the 4.5 motor with the Schulze U-Force 75 yet? You sure can't run the Plettenberg motors with the Novak GTB! Let us know how the Schulze/4.5 combo works?

[Rocksalt]

Comparing the Novak GTB ESC to the Schulze U-Force 75 ESC is like comparing a row boat to a speed boat. The Schulze can take alot more heat and abuse than the Novak, it can run more motors (sensorless BL), it is completely PC programmable and you run alot larger pinion gears on the motor used with the Schulze than can be used by the Novak!

I know the Schulze is expensive, but you get what you pay for!

Have you tried the 4.5 motor with the Schulze U-Force 75 yet? You sure can't run the Plettenberg motors with the Novak GTB! Let us know how the Schulze/4.5 combo works?

Won't the larger pinions kill the bottom end? It will tax the system more, no?
Do you happen to know the operating max safe temp of the Schulze and pletty? I don't want to bang the thermal experimenting and my German is no good!

There are a few posts here where someone tried the Novak motor with it. Cogged badly and had some other abnormalities. The Novak is Wye wound, and the pletty Delta, correct? This must be why. Bet if the Schulze had a timing configuration to suit the Wye it would work better, but can it handle the 4.5!

So far, the Schulze is performing better in terms of radio interference. No problems with from servo cutting off or glitching. Could be I just haven't ran it enough, but so far after 48000mah no issues.

Be nice if I could make a 2 speed for this car. I just don't think I have enough space!@%@$#%%$&@%&^

Anyone have this combo in an xxx-4 so I can get an idea on gearing. I might take a spin to the LHS and get a few pinions today. WIsh I could use a 3S on this motor @%@$^@#$.

[dj_ski69]

Hey man,
Think of it like a real car....What happens when you floor the pedal in first gear.....you quickly rev up to high RPM and must change gears or risk blowing an engine.....
Well....BL motors have an optimum efficiency range.....To under/over geared and you get in trouble with heat and wasted energy....It just takes a bit of time to find whats perfect for your setup....
According to plettenbergs data sheet the Shadows efficiency is highest between 42,830 to 45,454 rpm at 86%+....
I believe also that your undergeared....
Also, one key point stated in this thread by YOU, is that your Novak is in for repair....In my own experience with three failed/broken Novak BL systems...
The better racing combo is the Pletty/UF-75 or 380c 6T....Much more durable...I don't know about you, but I don't like spending money on the same problem over and over again...
I Have a U-Force 75 with a 380c 8T(thanks jaime) in my T4 and am still trying to find its sweet spot....
One thing I have found is that a medium timing setting on the U-Force has yielded the best performance so far and the motor stays cool...
I'm still working on the gearing.....

Peace

SkI

[ElectricThunder]

Good way to explain undergearing. Basically, you're over revving the motor out of its efficiency range (which for the pletty is apparently 42-45k).

[SpEEdyBL]

I disagree with dj_ski69's opinion on which motor is best for racing. The shadow wins hands down, I agree with that, but the 4.5 is definately better than the feigao 380c motors. I have a 380c 9t and ss5800 (sold it) and the ss5800 is definately smoother on a racing scale and more durable than the 380c. Btw, my 380c 9t fell apart in a crash. I slammed into a curb, nothing else broke, but the front endbell came off despite the threads holding it on. Luckily I was able to screw it back using thread lock, but the threads are made of soft material. Also, the 380c bearings wear out quicker because the shaft is 3.17 mm all the way through, whereas the novak "R" shaft is wider at the front bearing.

[kufman]

you need to gear the shadow harder (bigger pinion). It has a ton more power than the novak and you have to use it. The motor gets hot when undergeared because it over revs. Geared too high and it will get hot, and geared too low it will get hot. In my touring car on a large outdoor track I geared my shadow at 72/30 * 2.5 = 6.0. This is too fast for the XXX-4, but I am pretty sure your ratio is too low. I know have run atleast a 20 tooth pinion in my xxx-4 with the 92 spur for road use. The 4.5 doesn't have more power, it has jerk (the derivative of acceleration) because it is sensored. This leads to wheel spin off the line and stuff which makes it look more powerful. If you want to run 3S lipoly you might want to look at something around 4000 rpm/v. Plettenberg used to make a motor called the Indoor. I only see the Indoor II on their site now, which may not work since it is a 6-pole motor and the U-force limits 6-pole rpm to 33,000.... I think.

[Rocksalt]

you need to gear the shadow harder (bigger pinion). It has a ton more power than the novak and you have to use it. The motor gets hot when undergeared because it over revs. Geared too high and it will get hot, and geared too low it will get hot. In my touring car on a large outdoor track I geared my shadow at 72/30 * 2.5 = 6.0. This is too fast for the XXX-4, but I am pretty sure your ratio is too low. I know have run atleast a 20 tooth pinion in my xxx-4 with the 92 spur for road use. The 4.5 doesn't have more power, it has jerk (the derivative of acceleration) because it is sensored. This leads to wheel spin off the line and stuff which makes it look more powerful. If you want to run 3S lipoly you might want to look at something around 4000 rpm/v. Plettenberg used to make a motor called the Indoor. I only see the Indoor II on their site now, which may not work since it is a 6-pole motor and the U-force limits 6-pole rpm to 33,000.... I think.

I think it's all relative here. Grunt off the line equates to a faster time from a-b, with no wheel spin. The 4.5R definatly shows that. I did notice that the 4.5R seemed to be the same top end. I didn't measure it, but I will. At first comparison the pletty seemed slower on top, but not much, with the same gearing.

I am not convinced of your gearing statement, but close. I geared the xxx-4 at 17/94. Top speed was 44.8 with pletty and GPS mounted to wing. With the 17/92 combo I was hitting 40.3. What I can't take into account here is the battery voltage. I am not sure the pack was fully charged when I tested.

When I can wheelie the xxx-4 at half speed with the 4.5R and not with the pletty, it pretty much shows what has more power. When I can break the tires loose at half throttle it also shows that the 4.5R has more power. Now... this may be a function of the ESC in doing this(acceleration time from 0-100% is set to 66ms max)!. All I know is that the Novak is quicker... Faster?... I am not sure yet as to which will pull a greater top speed. I have a feeling it's the Pletty, just geared differently. The Novak did not like the 17 tooth at all. In fact I used it very short term after temping the system. Also.. when using the 4.5R on a specific place near my house, I could easilly get the car to speeds that would allow to much wind under the front. This would cause the car to flip. I cannot do this with the pletty. It just doesn't have the acceleration the 4.5R does under those conditions. Another example. When racing down the street at half throttle maintained. If I hit a bump just right and squeeze the trigger it will launch the car in the air. If I do the same thing with the schulze it has no effect as there is to long of a time period to reach 100% throttle. By that time the bump is missed. I feel like the Schulze just has a softer feel to it. It is certianly not more powerfull with this combination.

Assuming the 4.5R and the pletty have the same RPM limit, I am sure the 4.5 will win on an on-road track(if the novak stays running). Granted you would need to have 2 top drivers drive as the initial torque of the novak is higher. It takes alot more control to tame the 4.5R.

This is how I see it anyway.. for offroad.. the pletty would win. The 4.5 just has to much power to put to the ground. Heck, they might be equal if you could control it. Both have to much power for off-road racing. When the pletty stretches is wings it will be to late.. it will have to turn!, lol.

[havy]

you need to gear the shadow harder (bigger pinion)...... Geared too high and it will get hot, and geared too low it will get hot. In my touring car on a large outdoor track I geared my shadow at 72/30 * 2.5 = 6.0. .....

Hey Kufman, I have a FTTC4 and was having heat issues w the gearing at 23/72. I thought I was overgearing? You have run it at 30/72 ratio, and you didn't have heat issues, should I try to go up instead of down on the pinion? I ran a 19/72 combo w/o heat issues, but if I can go up, I would much rather have it faster, I run on a large outdoor track.

As far as the 4.5, I don't have that motor but compared to the 5.5r there is no camparison, aside from the problems I had due to loss of steering on hard acceleration.

havy

[kufman]

Hey Kufman, I have a FTTC4 and was having heat issues w the gearing at 23/72. I thought I was overgearing? You have run it at 30/72 ratio, and you didn't have heat issues, should I try to go up instead of down on the pinion? I ran a 19/72 combo w/o heat issues, but if I can go up, I would much rather have it faster, I run on a large outdoor track.


I run a fan on my ESC, but the motor definately seems to like the higher gearing better. I run the ESC timing one notch lower than Schulze recommends, so I think that is the "soft" setting. One thing that i don't remember was the size of the tires I used with that ratio. I know my rollout was near 30mm/rev. So, if that was the case and I used 62 mm tires (about the size of rubber tires) that would give a 28 pinion with a 72 spur in a TC4 (which is the car I ran it in). This sounds about right since I was running foam tires that were most likely smaller than 62mm. If you haven't already seen it there is a video of this setup at a race last year. I am driving the Red with White stripes car that starts 2nd on the grid and finishes 3rd at the end.

http://kufman.com/img/rc/AJs%202005%20Divx2.avi

My own stupid mistake lost the race. I went wide in the straight to avoid a big bump in the middle of the straight. Others went tight to the inside, but I had the extra speed to sweep wide and not loose ground on anybody. got the 3 fastest laps of the race after I made my mistake.

I am now running this setup in my TA-05 and the car is silent. You can actually hear the tires rolling over the pavement.

[tcolesen]

Rocksalt, another thing that hasn't yet been mentioned is the battery you are using. Since the Shadow is a more powerful motor, it will require more power from the battery. If the battery can't supply the power, then it seems like the motor is slower. I have a feeling that the 66ms acceleration is also playing a part in the "slowness" of the Plettenburg. When I've run with that sort of acceleration in my vehicles, I can definitely tell that it is slow, and many times this slow acceleration limits/prevents wheelies.

[Rocksalt]

I'm running the thunderpower 8000mah 7.4V. Running both motors/ESC's in the same car. The 8000mah battery is definatly up to the challenge!

I actually like the schulze/pletty combo the best. To bad it's not legal, and what a shame.

From above post about the 5.5R and no comparison to the shadow makes me think I got a bad 4.5R. Bad in a good way, but bad that my ESC took a dump. IMO the 4.5R rips much better. Don't need a dyno to see it, it's that much different.

I found some good info here:

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1523

[dj_ski69]

I have found that a lot of track owners are starting to disregard ROAR and there draconian rules.....
Seriously...Are you racing in Roar events all the time....If not, the tracks that you might race at probably won't have a problem with it....then again maybe the tracks you want to race at have butt head owners who are stubborn....I don't know, thats why I'm asking....
Is there a Pro Series running track near you....Thier rules are more fit to revolving tecknology then ROARS rules are....
Maybe you could race in the Pro Series...
But at the very least ROAR does allow BL, just not the right type...IMHO


SKI

[havy]

Kufman,
Nice race, Thanks, I will try to gear up and see what happens.
havy

[Rocksalt]

Looks like you were right Kufman. I bought a 21 pinion. The temps seemed to hover about 150 with light driving larger loads(grass), hard driving was something in the 130-140 range. GPS'd at 50mph. Runs totally different. I like the way it drive with the smaller pinion. 50mph is just to fast for this buggy, lol.

[TheSteve]

I used to run an Aveox 4 pole motor (the RC7 car) with a final drive ratio of 5.6, plenty of torque and insane top speed. Its all about finding the right gearing for the type of motor/car. With my Hacker C40 2 pole motors I prefer something more like 8:1 or 9:1

[Rocksalt]

I had to remove the 21 pinon. It's to much for the controller with this car and HARD running. The 17/94 seems to work well. It all depends on ambient temps. over 80 deg. and the 17/94 combo is close to the edge with hard use.

Here is where I messed up.... After I download the manual for the U-soft program I apparantly missed one little step when I programmed the U-force...option 10: activate RCS.. It seems I set all the parameters, then uploaded them.. but they never became active. This is why the car had less acceleration off the line and wouldn't roast the tires. #$^%$%@^@$#^%

After I activated the RCS it ran like a new car. Top speed was the same, but the grunt was there now. Tires will roast nicely now. The 16khz drive frequency changed the sound of the motor and made it smoother.

Is it more powerfull than the 4.5R now, no. But it's definatly a better setup, glad I got it.

If all else fails "RTFM" sheesh

[Craps]

I actually like the schulze/pletty combo the best. To bad it's not legal, and what a shame.



Peel the sticker off the Plett motor and tell then it is a 2 pole Hacker. Track tech people have no way of telling if it is a 4 pole or a 2 pole motor. ROAR is just a guideline at most tracks with the brushless/mod class treated like an open motor class anyway. There is more motor there than we can hook up anyway in most mod/brushless 2wd trucks on off road.

[Jev]

Peel the sticker off the Plett motor and tell then it is a 2 pole Hacker. Track tech people have no way of telling if it is a 4 pole or a 2 pole motor. ROAR is just a guideline at most tracks with the brushless/mod class treated like an open motor class anyway. There is more motor there than we can hook up anyway in most mod/brushless 2wd trucks on off road.

Surely you can tell just by turning the rotor by hand and counting the notches?

[nicholcgn]

Personally just ask. Unless it is a roar race I doubt any of the brushless people wiould realy care. We all have more power than needed. No need to be deceptive. Will just cause you problems.

[Craps]

They don't even tech the stock truck class at 99% of the races I go to, why worry about a mod/brushless class!