RCX! Apogee LiMn packs

[PeterV]

http://209.2.68.15:8011/pics/apogee_lipo.jpg

Apogee 2-Cell 2200 mAh Battery Pack w/Voltage Port
Item#:
2S1P2200HP
Price/ea.
$61.99

Pack Specifications:

Capacity: 2200 mAh
Dimensions: 16mm Thick x 37mm Wide x 100mm Long
Weight: 115 Grams (4.10 Oz)
14 Gauge Silicon Wire Leads
Operating Specifications:

Maximum Charged Voltage: 8.4V
Minimum Discharged Voltage: 6.0V
Maximum Charge Amperage: 2.2A (1C)
Maximum Continuous Discharge Amperage: 44A (20C)
Maximum Operating Temperature: 60C (140F)
Connector NOT Included.

Replaces the following 6-cell packs:

CBP2000
GP2200
Other Standard 4/5 Sub-C or Full Sub-C Ni-Cd/Mh Round Cells of 2200 mAh Capacity
Known 1/18th Scale Car/Truck Chassis Compatibility:

Associated RC18 Series (Buggy, Truck, Monster Truck)
X-Ray M18T
X-Ray M18
Trinity Itsy Bitsy Spyder
May fit other vehicles. Check battery compartment and compare against listed pack dimensions.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Apogee 3-Cell 3800 mAh Li-Mn 20C Battery Pack
Item#:
3S1P3800MN
Price/ea.
$149.99


Pack Specifications:

Capacity: 3800 mAh
Dimensions: 27mm (1-1/16") Thick x 42mm (1-11/16") Wide x 139mm (5-5/8") Long
Weight: 350 Grams (12.5 Oz)
13 Gauge Silicon Wire Leads
Operating Specifications:

Maximum Charged Voltage: 12.6V
Minimum Discharged Voltage: 9.0V
Maximum Charge Amperage: 3.8A (1C)
Maximum Continuous Discharge Amperage: 76A (20C)
Maximum Operating Temperature: 60C (140F)
Tamiya type connector included

__________________________________________________ _______

Also available, not shown: 2S1P LiPo

Name:
Apogee 2-Cell 3800 mAh Li-Mn 20C Battery Pack
Item#:
2S1P3800MN
Price/ea.
$99.99

Pack Specifications:

Capacity: 3800 mAh
Dimensions: 19mm (3/4") Thick x 42mm (1-11/16") Wide x 139mm (5-5/8") Long
Weight: 236 Grams (8.35 Oz)
13 Gauge Silicon Wire Leads
Operating Specifications:

Maximum Charged Voltage: 8.4V
Minimum Discharged Voltage: 6.0V
Maximum Charge Amperage: 3.8A (1C)
Maximum Continuous Discharge Amperage: 76A (20C)
Maximum Operating Temperature: 60C (140F)
Tamiya type connector included.

More info at www.pfmdistribution.com

[ElectricThunder]

I've heard about these a while ago. Interesting.

[Combatcm]

Yeah, tamiya connectors are a good way of keeping the power wires from shorting while shipping :p

[ElectricThunder]

Yeah, tamiya connectors are a good way of keeping the power wires from shorting while shipping :p
That's about the only thing they're good for..if that..:D

[WJ Birmingham]

Yeah, tamiya connectors are a good way of keeping the power wires from shorting while shipping :p

And that's the only reason we chose them.

-WJ
www.ApogeePacks.com

[Kden46]

Well the 2cell 2200mah pack is a lipo pack.

The LiMn pack has been on their site for a while now. But still good to see it get a little more exposure!

Has there been any comparison testing between the LiMn pack and the Orion/Peak LiPo packs?

[WJ Birmingham]

Well the 2cell 2200mah pack is a lipo pack.

The LiMn pack has been on their site for a while now. But still good to see it get a little more exposure!

Has there been any comparison testing between the LiMn pack and the Orion/Peak LiPo packs?

We have not done any comparison testing for two reasons:

1. The packs are not the same capacity.
2. Nobody views side by side comparisons from one manufacturer as an objective test.

An online review of our pack can be found here: http://www.beatyourtruck.com/prodreview-ApogeeLIMN3800.html

-WJ

[Racing t]

but with what charger can I charge Limn packs'??

[JakeE]

Any decent LiPo compatible charger with a CC-CV (constant current / constant voltage) charge mode should work. I've personally used both a Durtrax ICE and a Hyperion EOS 7i with my Apogee 2S 3800 LiMN pack.

[tallyrc]

Apogee 2-Cell 2200 mAh Battery Pack w/Voltage Port
Item#:
2S1P2200HP
Price/ea.
$61.99

Pack Specifications:

Capacity: 2200 mAh
Dimensions: 16mm Thick x 37mm Wide x 100mm Long
Weight: 115 Grams (4.10 Oz)
14 Gauge Silicon Wire Leads
Operating Specifications:


Associated RC18 Series (Buggy, Truck, Monster Truck)


More info at www.pfmdistribution.com

the only way that will fit an associated rc18t/b/mt is with velcro/tape or chewing gum... but it's not a drop in...

[savageP3]

LiMn? Lithium Manganese? seems more volatile than lithium polymer.

[WJ Birmingham]

the only way that will fit an associated rc18t/b/mt is with velcro/tape or chewing gum... but it's not a drop in...

Well, I hate to disagree, but I will. We had one on display at RCX in our booth. Anyone of the hundreds who stopped by our booth can confirm it.

-WJ

[ElectricThunder]

LiMn? Lithium Manganese? seems more volatile than lithium polymer.
I think you're thinking magnesium? Manganese, especially mixed with other stuff, should be pretty stable. Although manganese by itself is still pretty nasty stuff. :eek: Anyways, I've heard that these LiMn are supposed to be more stable than lipos. I think they're also slightly heavier, but still, a step up from NiMH and NiCd.:D

[WJ Birmingham]

I think you're thinking magnesium? Manganese, especially mixed with other stuff, should be pretty stable. Although manganese by itself is still pretty nasty stuff. :eek: Anyways, I've heard that these LiMn are supposed to be more stable than lipos. I think they're also slightly heavier, but still, a step up from NiMH and NiCd.:D

You guys may want to read this page from Duracell: http://www.duracell.com/oem/Primary/Lithium/lithium_manganese_tech.asp

Obviously, as Duracell states, not all batteries are created equal, but a lot of the technology has the same roots.

And yes, there is about a 3% weight penalty over traditional Lithium Cobalt packs.

-WJ
www.ApogeePacks.com

[lonepalm4]

thanks for the link... very informative. However, after reading this:

"Spiral wound cylindrical cells are designed for high-current pulse capability (up to 5 ampere), as well as for continuous high rate operation (up to 1.2 ampere). "

-- and this is thier high drain cell.... i guess you can see where i'm going with this. mod cars can pull well over 100A peak, and average 40A
discharge.... i guess i wonder what the difference is in construction (if any) between these and li-po cells.. also, do your cells feature the safety vent like duracells???

thanks for the info....

[ElectricThunder]

You guys may want to read this page from Duracell: http://www.duracell.com/oem/Primary/Lithium/lithium_manganese_tech.asp

Obviously, as Duracell states, not all batteries are created equal, but a lot of the technology has the same roots.

And yes, there is about a 3% weight penalty over traditional Lithium Cobalt packs.

-WJ
www.ApogeePacks.com
Thanks for the link. Lots of stuff to go through.

lonepalm- Sure they're not talking about maybe watch batteries (haven't read it all, so I don't know)? :confused:

[WJ Birmingham]

thanks for the link... very informative. However, after reading this:

"Spiral wound cylindrical cells are designed for high-current pulse capability (up to 5 ampere), as well as for continuous high rate operation (up to 1.2 ampere). "

-- and this is thier high drain cell.... i guess you can see where i'm going with this. mod cars can pull well over 100A peak, and average 40A
discharge.... i guess i wonder what the difference is in construction (if any) between these and li-po cells.. also, do your cells feature the safety vent like duracells???

thanks for the info....

The link was meant to provide technical information on Li-Mn in general. Cell construction can vary, and Duracell does not make any packs (to our knowledge) which do not have a steel shell.

Without using a steel shell you can not have a 'vent' on a polymer pack. As soon as you put on the steel shell you have just given up the extreme weight advantage of current polymer cells.

Hope this helps.

-WJ

[WJ Birmingham]

News Flash (http://www.pfmdistribution.com/Apogee_Puncture_Test.wmv)

[Kden46]

now that was kewl!

so are these made or going to be made into packs for micro cars/trucks?

[WJ Birmingham]

now that was kewl!

so are these made or going to be made into packs for micro cars/trucks?

Absolutely.

We're now finalizing the details on the latest pack line, which will include:

1000 mAh & 1500 mAh (form factor of a 6-cell shotgun stick pack)
2200 mAh (as current form factor of 6-cell side by side pack)
3000 mAh & 6000 mAh (form factor of 6-cell Sub-C pack)

The best news is that the 6000 mAh pack will be right around the price point of the competition's 4800 mAh pack.

The entire new line of Magnums will include the resilient lexan top and bottom sheeting for protection. We don't believe in hard plastic cases, as they add weight and insulate the battery, allowing less effective cooling.

-WJ

[___rollin___]

Why would you need lexan anyways? There is a video around here with someone drilling a hole through a freshly charged pack, so why add lexan? It adds wieght just as anything else does, right?

Anyways, cool packs!

[ElectricThunder]

Why would you need lexan anyways? There is a video around here with some drilling a hole through a freshly charged pack, so why add lexan? It adds wieght just as anything else does, right?

Anyways, cool packs!
That's a pretty good point. None-the-less, it still sounds cool to say you have lithium manganese batteries to confuse the crap out of the guys at your LHS..... ;)

[WJ Birmingham]

Why would you need lexan anyways? There is a video around here with some drilling a hole through a freshly charged pack, so why add lexan? It adds wieght just as anything else does, right?

Anyways, cool packs!

The weight it adds is minimal, but the protection it affords is astronomical. Small things that you're not considering can cause potential damage to lipos.

I 'spose you've NEVER dropped a pack in the pits, right? ;)

[ElectricThunder]

I 'spose you've NEVER dropped a pack in the pits, right? ;)
I haven't. :D (No, really, I haven't.) But are you saying I can damage the LiMn battery by dropping it in the pits or something? :eek:

And weight is weight though. Weight is the enemy.... it must be dealt with accordingly. (dun dun dun....)

[The_Mini_Me]

Can I raise my hand for a mini 1500mah in a 4cell format (alah TP1320)? I use that extra space gained for electronics.

[EvaderRacer76]

wow, i can't wait to see the 6000 mah pack, and the weight difference between the orion pack.

[WJ Birmingham]

wow, i can't wait to see the 6000 mah pack, and the weight difference between the orion pack.

A 2-Cell 6000 mAh Li-Mn pack should weigh about 372 Grams (13.3 Oz)

We'll keep the 4-cell 1500 form factor option in mind, however this is the first request we've received for it.

With our new 1000 & 1500 mAh pack sizes, the packs should fit across a CRC Carpet Knife without any issues. We're assuming this request was based on 1/12th scale applications.

By the way, we were having a bit of fun last night. (http://www.pfmdistribution.com/backflip.wmv)

-WJ

[vtl1180ny]

Both LiPo and LiMn look to be very promissing in this hobby, BUT.... There really isn't an option for us who run 4 cell 12th scale or even Oval....

[The_Mini_Me]

A 2-Cell 6000 mAh Li-Mn pack should weigh about 372 Grams (13.3 Oz)

We'll keep the 4-cell 1500 form factor option in mind, however this is the first request we've received for it.

With our new 1000 & 1500 mAh pack sizes, the packs should fit across a CRC Carpet Knife without any issues. We're assuming this request was based on 1/12th scale applications.

By the way, we were having a bit of fun last night. (http://www.pfmdistribution.com/backflip.wmv)

-WJ

Actually no, I meant mini size (again using TP1320 as reference size). I cant explain how nice it is to have a small battery form factor that allows you to fit all your electronics down on the chassis for a low cg and allows shifting the battery around to balance to cars weight. We arent stuck in a standard size battery format like 1/10th from ruling bodies. We are dealing with less room in minis with disproportionate electronics. Especially with the sedans. So any means to free it up (again like the battery layout) is a godsend.

I know someone who loves your packs, but cant find a good size to fit a standard m18 chassis. These new announced sizes dont seemingly address his distress (and mine as well).

[Kden46]

Sweet!!! Looking forward to those 1000mah, 1500mah and 2000mah packs!!!

[WJ Birmingham]

Actually no, I meant mini size (again using TP1320 as reference size). I cant explain how nice it is to have a small battery form factor that allows you to fit all your electronics down on the chassis for a low cg and allows shifting the battery around to balance to cars weight. We arent stuck in a standard size battery format like 1/10th from ruling bodies. We are dealing with less room in minis with disproportionate electronics. Especially with the sedans. So any means to free it up (again like the battery layout) is a godsend.

I know someone who loves your packs, but cant find a good size to fit a standard m18 chassis. These new announced sizes dont seemingly address his distress (and mine as well).

I'm not sure how many minutes you're needing to run with your 1/18th scale, but even with a Mamba 25 - 6800 motor we're running at a rate of 100 mAh per minute. So an 800 mAh pack will provide 8 mins of run-time. Are you running 15 minute qualifiers? If not, why carry all that extra weight around?

-WJ

[The_Mini_Me]

The 1000 mah then; something limn that is smaller. But mostly for the higher c rating since I use the same packs in my m18t. I also use aon motors which amp draw is higher than mambas hence again the want of a higher continous amperage than a smaller mah pack provides in the same c rating.

[Duster_360]

I'm just bashing and run a 1700mah lipo that fits like it was designed for my DTX Mini-Quake SE - about the same fit in my Vendetta too (85 x 34 x 19.5mm). Love the 20+ min runtimes. Suspect I'm not the only one running them either. I don't want to cut up the chassis, specially since I know I don't have too.

I've looked at the Apogee pacs, but don't want to go to a smaller capacity and less run time.

[pimpride]

So would a 3s LiMn 6000mah pack have more punch, last longer, weigh less, cost less, and flow more current to a brushless system than a 12 cell IB4200 matched pack would?

Reason I ask is because I work at my LHS, and I can get these discounted as well as the IB4200 cells, but my charger is going to crap so I need a new route to go with (get a new 70 charger or step up and get LiMn and LiPo charger). Will the E-Flight 3 Cell Celectra Charger work with this?

Edit: BTW, all you need now is a commercial of a Sumo Wrestler running from the left to the right with Lithium painted on his chest, and a Sumo Wrestler running from the right to the left with Manganese painted on his chest, and have them collide in the center above an electric RC car.

Yes that was a spoof off of the Sprite commercial, and pronounce LiMn, it sounds like Limon just on the commercials too lol! :D

[WJ Birmingham]

Ok, let me try and answer the last few posts.

1. Mini Me - We still contend that even with the larger AON motors (we know Steve well at AON), 800 mAh is plenty, 1000 will just provide longer run time. We currently run our 830 (10C) and 800 (20C) packs in our HPI Micro RS4 without difficulty, mounted sideways, riding a bit above the lower belt. We do contend, and understand that the 1000 pack will probably not fit, and we will look at continuing on with the 800 size to counter that issue.

2. Duster - In the form factor we're moving too, the 1500 mAh pack will be the largest the form factor will allow for. Have you actually done a capacity check of your 1700? Many companies who will remain un-named over-rate cells.

3. Pimpin Aint Easy... Err, Pimpride - A 6000 mAh Li-Mn pack would be able to deliver a massive 120A current to your controller. Even the fastest brushless systems (Novak 3.5R and Castle Mamba Max 7700) don't pull that many amps. The E-Flite Celectra will work, however, lol, it'll take you about, oh, 4 hours or so to charge the pack. We would highly recommend stepping up to a Duratrax Ice or Astro 109, or something else of higher charge rate.

Remember, the new Li-Mn line is capable of 2C charge rates, and our labeling on the 3800 will soon reflect that. This means that you can charge a 6000 pack at 12A, getting to full charge in around 40 minutes.

No sumo wrestlers for us. Maybe a couple hot chicks yelling "Lithium" and "Manganese" at each other before ripping each other's clothes off. Yeah, thats the ticket!

-WJ

[JakeE]

Is the 2C charge rate applicable to all LiMn packs that have been sold or just newer ones?

[pimpride]

Sounds amazing. I'll probably get the Triton, it seems to be better than the Ice.

Any ideas on retail on the 3s 6000mah LiMn packs and also what are the dimensions on those?

[The_Mini_Me]

WJ Birmingham, check your PM. I dont want to hold up your thread. :)

[WJ Birmingham]

Jake - We held off on the 2C charge rate qualification until we finished our testing on them. So yes, 2C charge rates for the Li-Mn are good for any pack sold, not just recent packs.

Pimpride - The Triton has a max charge rate of 2.5A. Again, it'll take forever to charge.

The cell size will remain the same in length width (same as a 6-cell Sub-C), and will be 4.4mm in thickness. Since it will take 6 cells for a 3-cell pack (3S2P), we're looking at 26.4mm thick (probably about 1-1/8" thick with lexan plating)

Pricing.. I'll guestimate in the 230 range (street price). We never claimed to be cheap, only the best. There are 'other' budget priced cells out there, but they won't perform to the levels of an Apogee. A 2-cell 6000 should be in the price range of 160ish.

Mini-Me - I'll respond via PM.

-WJ

[pimpride]

So the Ice can charge at 12amps then? What would be the voltage cutoff on a 3S2P 6000mah pack?

[JakeE]

So the Ice can charge at 12amps then? What would be the voltage cutoff on a 3S2P 6000mah pack?

The Ice has a max charge rate of 8A, off the top of my head I don't know of any chargers that can charge at 12A.


Jake - We held off on the 2C charge rate
qualification until we finished our testing on them. So yes, 2C charge rates for the Li-Mn are good for any pack sold, not just recent packs.

Pimpride - The Triton has a max charge rate of 2.5A. Again, it'll take forever to charge.

The cell size will remain the same in length width (same as a 6-cell Sub-C), and will be 4.4mm in thickness. Since it will take 6 cells for a 3-cell pack (3S2P), we're looking at 26.4mm thick (probably about 1-1/8" thick with lexan plating)

Pricing.. I'll guestimate in the 230 range (street price). We never claimed to be cheap, only the best. There are 'other' budget priced cells out there, but they won't perform to the levels of an Apogee. A 2-cell 6000 should be in the price range of 160ish.

Mini-Me - I'll respond via PM.

-WJ

That's cool about the 2C charging. Any idea on a release timeframe for the 6000 mAH packs?

[pimpride]

So the Ice can charge at 12amps then? What would be the voltage cutoff on a 3S2P 6000mah pack?

Just talked to my fellow coworkers, seems that no charger can charge at 12 amps.

But what is the voltage cutoff on the pack quoted above?

[WJ Birmingham]

Just talked to my fellow coworkers, seems that no charger can charge at 12 amps.

But what is the voltage cutoff on the pack quoted above?

Correct. I believe the max I have seen was either on a Schultze or Orbit charger, which was 10A.

Due to the low internal resistance of the cells, when we move to the Magnum only line, we will be increasing the low voltage cut-off from it's standard 3.0V/cell to 3.2V/cell. The cells simply give higher voltage than anything else on the market, and thus deplete their capacity at a higher cut-off.

-WJ

[rezenclowd3]

HMMM, these packs interest me. It seems that the size I want (1700-2200) are quite a bit lighter than other LIPOS. The reason I like that, I just got into helis, and weight is so much more and issue there. Plus I love the 2c charge rate and how safe they "seem" to be.... seem because we wont know till someone stupid, or someone that just made a decent mistake tries out the damage resistance:-) Maybe I will with a 100+ foot fall because of clumsy thumbs;-0 So far I have tried Polyquest and Thunderpower and have had no problems. I even shorted 2 lipos and they still get used daily, although I really should be more careful with them... or just dispose of them.
WJ, thanks for the info and I look forward to trying one out as an alternative. Maybe Ill bring a few heli guys with me eh? I know I converted others to Lipos for 18th scale trucks...

[rezenclowd3]

oops, I was looking at the 2 cell lipo... darn... There goes my weight savings... Still, id like to try one out though, it never hurts to try eh. If it doesnt satisfy my flying requirements, I can always use the pack for setup only I guess... BTW, maybe I should try a 2cell config in my nitro vehicles for the RX pack instead. That should shave some weight off plus. Sweet.

[pimpride]

What is the code of the 6000mah 3s LiMn pack? Is it 3S1P6000MN or 3S2P6000MN?

[pimpride]

Also is the 3S1P 3800mah LiMn battery capable of 2C charge rates?

And does it give the same amount of punch as the 6000mah 3s that is still coming out?

[dodgeguy]

Do you offer a pack like Much More for motor fans? It looks a little larger than a personal transponder.

[WJ Birmingham]

What is the code of the 6000mah 3s LiMn pack? Is it 3S1P6000MN or 3S2P6000MN?

It will be 3S2P6000MN when it arrives. We expect delivery by October 1st.

Although the sticker says 1C charge rate, the current 3800 IS capable of 2C charge rates without detrimental affects.

There should be no difference in punch between the 3800 and 6000. I'm running a 3S1P 3800MN in a TC4 with a Mamba 5700 geared 18/78 on dirt oval. It has already set one track record, and is the fastest thing I've ever seen on dirt. It pulls people out of the pits like a top fuel dragster at the drag strip.

Our smallest pack is 350 mAh and has a footprint of 35mm by 50mm: http://pfmdistribution.com/secure/shop/category.asp?catid=21

-WJ

[neobubi]

I've got one of those 3800 7.4V. The instructions say that you have to break in the battery by charging and discharging (preferably in a car geared down) them 15 times... Is it true??? I mean it would take ages.

An other question: I put a shrink wrap on it because I want to glue some lead on it. Will this have any negative effect on the battery?

If I want to charge it with 2C how should I set up my ICE charger. It won't let me charge more than 1C. Should I adjust the battery capacity to 7600mAh?

[cart213]

It will be 3S2P6000MN when it arrives. We expect delivery by October 1st.

Do you have a price yet? I'm in the market for lipos now, and l'd like to know if these are worth waiting for price-wise.

[WJ Birmingham]

2-cell 6000 roughly 150.00
3-cell 6000 roughly 230.00

Neobubi;

Anything worth doing is worth doing right. If you want optimal performance and long life from your packs you'll take the time to break them in per instructions.

The Ice will only let you charge at 1C, so you'll need to lie about capacity.

-WJ

[RobK]

WJ--on the ICE charging response...

So the CCCV algorithm will auto-detect when it hits capacity and shut off instead of overcharging?

I'm only asking because I'm surprised by your response. If you only charged at 1C wouldn't it just take longer--why would you want to tell it it has more MA's than it really has?

-Rob

[neobubi]

I agree just it was a surprise since it was never mentioned in this thread nor other Lipo threads I read. Now I see the information is available on PFM site, I should have dowloaded it before order... here is the link for info: http://www.pfmdistribution.com/files/ApogeeGuidelines.pdf

Can I charge them at 2C and discharge them with 10A and 6.0V cutoff 15 times in a row? If yes what would be the delay if any between the cycles?

One more: what type of cell balancer do you recommend? how often I should balance the pack?

[WJ Birmingham]

Robk;

You can set the pack capacity to 9900 for convenience in selecting charge rate. The pack capacity is only input into the Ice as a redundant safety. The Ice uses the CC/CV algorithm to detect when the pack is full.

For those reading, who don't know what CC/CV is:

CC = Constant Current - Charger applies constant current until 4.2V/cell is reached.
CV = Constant Voltage - Charger applies constant voltage, tapering current down, until 4.2V/cell is sustained, at which charging stops.

There is NO PEAKING OF LITHIUM BATTERIES.

This means no more running to the starting line after pushing the peak button for that last time. You literally have days from the point of which you charge the pack until you need to get to the starting line. No more last minute rushes or worries that the peak is gone.

Any of the APOGEE MAGNUM line of packs can be charged at 2C. Until October first, the only pack we have which is of the Li-Mn chemistry is the 3800. Yes, you can do 2C charging for the break-in, and use your Ice to discharge down to 3V/cell at 10A. Delay between cycles, about 15 minutes (allow the pack to cool to room temp before cycling again).

Neo;

Apogees are all matched at the factory to strict tolerances. Ni-Mh/Cd packs are matched to provide better performance. This is an option with Ni-Mh/Cd chemistry. With Lithiums, it's not done for performance gains, but as a safety standard (at least with Apogee it is anyhow). As long as you follow the break-in procedure and operating limits listed on the pack balancing should not be required.

-WJ

[Rich chang]

Hi,

I just picked up a couple packs of the 3800 LiMns and need to cycle them before this weekend. I wanted to make sure I have the settings correct on my Ice:

Li-Po 7.4V 9900mah
Charge Current: 7.6A
Discharge Current: 10A
Discharge Volt: 3.7V (that is the highest I can set it to)
Cut-Off temp: 132 deg F
Max Charge Capacity: 100%

-Rich

[ScottB32]

...as a Lipo user, who has fried a lipo, can I ask some more info?

The drill demo sure was effective (make sure to put it on your site). It illustrated the ability of this product to resist physical abuse. I trust this was a fully charged pack.

Let me bring up something that happened w a 2100 3-cell Lipo I was running:

I was running a competitor's pack when my motor locked (mamba/aon). The esc shorted while the battery fed amperage. Smoke started to pour out, but I disconnected in time (battery, esc, motor fried). I understand this was my issue (a rock had locked the driveline). But this raises one question:

Can you short these batteries without excessive temperature/fire?

As a demo, perhaps you could connect an aligator clip to the two outlets (or something similar). I've seen NIMH 3300 cells shorted (2 stalls down). They fizzle and pop, but the casing seems to channel the amperage load (no fire, lots of heat).

I love lipo's - and would love to run these in my 1/10 electric monster truck. Any info would help.

Thanks in advance - I'm very tempted.

[neobubi]

Rich,

The discharge cut-off should be adjusted to 3.0V, everything else looks good.

Edit: the max charged capacity can be adjusted to around 38-40% for extra safety.

[WJ Birmingham]

Rich;

On the Ice, we recommend using a 3.2V/cell low voltage cut-off. 3.7V/cell is a bit high.


Scott;

Yes. The pack was fully charged.

Doing a direct short test would be pointless. The cells are designed to carry the listed amp draws. Excessively exceeding the amperages listed would simply burn out the output tabs, thus breaking the connection. So we couldn't give an accurate test via the means you proposed, since the tabs would burn through in literally 3-4 seconds.

I'm actually surprised that a Mamba would let you dead short a motor. Typically the load applied would depress the cell voltage (via amperage draw) and the low voltage would kick in on the controller. The Mamba Max should run in the same way.

Of course, Castle is on the bleeding edge of software technology with their products. They're doing things that the 'other guys' haven't thought of in the past 20 years of RC.

-WJ

[ScottB32]

...a short would most likely lead to a connection de-soldering or melting off.

Just to clarify - with my "incident" I can not verify exactly what happened. But when all was said and done, the motor was bad (windings bad - rotor okay), esc fried (it de-soldered the wire connections, chips), and battery bad (no visible signs, just wouldn't charge/balance correctly). My theory: a locked motor created excessive heat, leading to the windings in the can to short leading to excessive amperage draw and system meltdown. This incident was my fault - the car stopped and I continued to pull the trigger (duh!!!). Both Aon and Mamba are not to blame (these companies make A+ products).

One last (stupid) question:

The Li-Mn appear fair much better against phsyical abuse (great demo). How about over-charging?

The reason I ask is I have not found any safety data on Li-Mn batteries RE this.

Thanks WJ - and thanks Apogee - for a great new product.

[neobubi]

WJ,

You confused me:

Any of the APOGEE MAGNUM line of packs can be charged at 2C. Until October first, the only pack we have which is of the Li-Mn chemistry is the 3800. Yes, you can do 2C charging for the break-in, and use your Ice to discharge down to 3V/cell at 10A. Delay between cycles, about 15 minutes (allow the pack to cool to room temp before cycling again).

On the Ice, we recommend using a 3.2V/cell low voltage cut-off. 3.7V/cell is a bit high.

Now which one is true, 3.0V OR 3.2V

Beside that great info, thanks

BTW I started to break in the packs at 10A and 3.0V cutoff. I will post the information of the 15 cycle I get from the ICE

[WJ Birmingham]

Scott;

Our plant engineers have tested the packs at up to 12V for a single cell. No flame has occurred in any of the test as of yet (although venting and smoke has erupted occassionally).

Sounds like a visual demo is in order on a more crude scale, like hooking up a 12V Deep Cycle Marine battery capable of delivering an 800A charge rate to a 2-cell pack (thus overcurrenting beyond what any typical end user would do). I'll get the deep cycle I use for my winch in my car trailer charged up for a demo.

Neo;

I'm wishy washy on the LVC. Currently, all packs are labelled at 3.0V/cell. This may be changing very shortly, as the Li-Mn series seem to deplete capacity at a higher voltage, thus warranting a higher LVC. So, when the complete line comes in, and labels are made, the LVC may very well be increased to reflect this.

-WJ

[Rich chang]

I was wondering how long it should take to charge/discharge these batteries while doing the break-in cycling?

It is taking me on average about 75 minutes to charge up the pack and about 20 minutes to discharge.

I have two packs I am cycling so this is taking me forever... :)

-Rich

[WJ Birmingham]

I was wondering how long it should take to charge/discharge these batteries while doing the break-in cycling?

It is taking me on average about 75 minutes to charge up the pack and about 20 minutes to discharge.

I have two packs I am cycling so this is taking me forever... :)

-Rich

Since you didn't indicate the size of the packs or the charge rate, that's like asking... "How long does it take to get to Chicago" It's all subjective to the paremeters being used.

-WJ

[WJ Birmingham]

http://www.pfmdistribution.com/Li-Mn.jpg

[neobubi]

I've finished the break in procedure (geez it took forever :) )

The data of the cycles:
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6779/slide4ti6.png

Two discharge curves show the 6th and 15th cycle:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3711/slide3sj7.png

These curves compare the immediate discharge after charge to a 12 hour delayed discharge:
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5443/slide2ny0.png

This is a comparison of a 3 months old IB4200 and the new LiMn:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2462/slide1gd9.png

note: my charger was acting up around 120th sec of the discharge that's why some curves contain a peak around there.

[neobubi]

One more:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/415/platinumiblimnss3.png

I'm not dead sure how old is the Orion Pack it has around 30-40 charges in it.

[TriPower]

The Orion looks pretty impressive compared to the other two.

[ElectricThunder]

How come the Orion wasn't discharged at 10 amps like the NiMH and the LiMN? :confused: Do you have any IB3800s to test against the LiMN 3800? That would probably be a bit more "fair"/accurate when comparing NiMH and LiMN. Nice information though.

[neobubi]

I don't own an Orion pack. My buddy took the discharge curve for me... he had a problem with his charger which did not let him to discharge more than 9.6A. I don't think it makes that big of a difference.
Yes I do have 3800 packs but they are old and beat up. It would not be fair to compare to brand new stuff.
However if anybody is willing to help out here is what I need: dicharge your precious IB3800 at 10A and write down what voltage the charger displays in every 10 seconds. PM me the numbers and I put it in the chart and post it here.

[ElectricThunder]

Ah...gotcha. Old IBs would not be the best test subject. I was just curious as to why the Orion was discharged at 9.6 amps instead of 10. 400mah probably does not make too much of a difference. Nice to have some discharge curves and stuff.

[nicholcgn]

It would also be nice to see how the discharge rate compares at a slighltly higher amp wouldn't it? An average discharge at 15 or 20 amps might show a different curve? Is there any way to get a higher discharge amp? Or could one of the battery manufactures post this same type graph doing a higher rate?

[WJ Birmingham]

Neo;

Our apologies, as it seems you have a pack that isn't up to snuff. The packs should easily supply a full 3800 mAh at a 10A load. If you will contact us directly we would happily supply you with a replacement pack.

Overcharge

As for those asking for overcharge, please see the attached photo.

We didnt take video as it simply wasn't necessary. Upon hooking up the final connection the rubber alligator clip insulation immediately melted. After about 30 seconds, the positive wire unsoldered itself. At that point I bent over with a wet finger and touched the battery. The cell itself was barely warmer than armpit temperature.

So, worst case scenario, a single Li-Mn cell can take 12V from a fully charged marine battery and NOT vent or flame.

-WJ

http://www.pfmdistribution.com/Overcharge.jpg

[RobK]

WJ--

What's the weight of the 6AH 2S pack? My electric Revo needs some new packs--a pair of these look perfect to run my HV-MAXX 6.5

-Rob

[ScottB32]

...your demonstrations have convinced me: these are the packs to get. I hope Apogee appreciates your time here - it is the best advertising IMO.

Hey RobK - What's the weight of your Electric Revo (with battery packs)? I'm running an E-Zilla - I've gotten it down to under 9 lbs (w 2 7.2 packs), but I think that E-Revo could get much lighter.

[WJ Birmingham]

Rob;
A 2-cell 6000 pack weighs 378 Grams (13.5 Oz)

Scott;
Since I own Apogee, my time is well spent here (when I can make the time to come read and post).

-WJ

[neobubi]

WJ, I can't send you PM's because your PM inbox is full :(

[RobK]

ScottB32--

Without batteries, but everything else RTR it's currently about 8lbs 10oz last I checked. I think it's about 10lbs 2oz with 2 8AH lipos. There are Revos out there *much* lighter than mine--not sure how they do it. But I have a list of things to do that will further reduce weight:

1) Gorillamaxx chassis (I'm using a Revo 2.5 chassis w/EMAXX battery trays & custom Al plates & brackets--not light)
2) full Al or Ti pivot balls (2 are still steel)
3) lighter tires (I'm using 40 series bowties--going narrower)
4) CF turnbuckles & pushrods (still thinking about this one--I already have Al)
5) Still thinking about other things I could do.

edit: Oh yea, I could get lighter batteries--the subject of this thread :)

-Rob

[dodgeguy]

One more:


I'm not dead sure how old is the Orion Pack it has around 30-40 charges in it.

Very nice info. I wonder what a 4200SHV would show. And with one of the better packs WJ is talking about. Very interesting :)

[dodgeguy]

Neo;

Our apologies, as it seems you have a pack that isn't up to snuff. The packs should easily supply a full 3800 mAh at a 10A load. If you will contact us directly we would happily supply you with a replacement pack.

-WJ
]

So how old was his pack? I understand cells can be different. It does look like his pack lost run time with less than 20 cycles on it. How much can these cells differ from each other?

[TypeR 126]

Neo;

Our apologies, as it seems you have a pack that isn't up to snuff. The packs should easily supply a full 3800 mAh at a 10A load. If you will contact us directly we would happily supply you with a replacement pack.



Just curious here, as my two packs seems to have similar numbers.

http://www.donkeymotorsports.com/images/Savage/LiMn%201.JPG

http://www.donkeymotorsports.com/images/Savage/LiMn%202.JPG

The packs definitely have a ton of punch and they hang on to the very end, they just don't seem to have as much capacity as I would think. Any thoughts?

[WJ Birmingham]

We are working on the issue. Please bear with us and know that everyone with a low capacity 3800 pack will be taken care of.

-WJ

[TypeR 126]

That's awesome news. :D As I mentioned, these are definitely the most powerful lithium based batteris I've used to date!

[sim600]

What is a good cell balancer or cell balancing charger to use with these packs - like one with the right plug? thanks.

[sim600]

Hi WJ,

On another forum, a friend wrote "I tried to buy some LiMn direct from Apogee earlier this year & was basically told to go away politely. They do not want to sell to Malaysians."

Is there no way for us to get the cells over the internet? Is it because they are dangerous to ship? Are there dealers that do international shipping?

Oh ya, the LiMn packs that are stickpack-shaped are not out yet? Thanks in advance.

Sim

[neobubi]

Sim600,

I was unfortunate enough to invest in four of these packs. Please take a look at the discharge curves of them to get an idea how consistent they are:

Discharge is 10Amp
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5166/4limnpacksbc0.png

Discharge capacity:
Pack A 3150mAh
Pack B 3500mAh
Pack C 3000mAh
Pack D 3150mAh

The one with the highest capacity is 2mm thicker then the rest :eek: and no it is not swollen or damaged anyways since it was never run in a car. Now that's some consistency right?

According to Apogee all packs should have around 3800 capacity. Mines are 8-15% less than what they claim brand new.

They know about the issue they also offered to replace those as soon as they sort out the problem. Guess what 3 months went by and nothing happened. I've sent them the packs for replacment they sent them back after two months (in the same packaging I've sent them out which means they didn't even bother to take a look at them) then they stopped answering my emails when I asked for my money back (I can post the entire email chain, it is exceptionally interesting - the best part is when I get an advise to stop sending them emails in every two weeks because it increases their workload).

Before I figured out the problem I recommended the packs to a friend, he bought two also one has a 3500mAh capacity the other is 3200...

They say the issue is "sporadic" but they cannot find 4 packs to replace mines.

Here is my point: if the issue is sporadic then they should have replaced the packs I have with tested good ones, if it isn't sporadic then why they keep selling those on their own site instead of recalling all the products from Towerhobbies and from the hobby stores? It is also interesting that the price of the pack recently dropped by 25%... I wonder why...

I'm done with them... I probably will never see the replacement packs or my money back.

So if you don't want to trust in your luck and hope for picking up a good one (your odds suck since 6 I know of is not up to the spec - oh yes there is one more just look back in this thread TypeR 126's post on the 9-13) just forget it, get an Orion at least you get from them what you have paid for.

[ElectricThunder]

Sim600,

I was unfortunate enough to invest in four of these packs. Please take a look at the discharge curves of them to get an idea how consistent they are:

Discharge is 10Amp
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5166/4limnpacksbc0.png

Discharge capacity:
Pack A 3150mAh
Pack B 3500mAh
Pack C 3000mAh
Pack D 3150mAh

The one with the highest capacity is 2mm thicker then the rest :eek: and no it is not swollen or damaged anyways since it was never run in a car. Now that's some consistency right?

According to Apogee all packs should have around 3800 capacity. Mines are 8-15% less than what they claim brand new.

They know about the issue they also offered to replace those as soon as they sort out the problem. Guess what 3 months went by and nothing happened. I've sent them the packs for replacment they sent them back after two months (in the same packaging I've sent them out which means they didn't even bother to take a look at them) then they stopped answering my emails when I asked for my money back (I can post the entire email chain, it is exceptionally interesting - the best part is when I get an advise to stop sending them emails in every two weeks because it increases their workload).

Before I figured out the problem I recommended the packs to a friend, he bought two also one has a 3500mAh capacity the other is 3200...

They say the issue is "sporadic" but they cannot find 4 packs to replace mines.

Here is my point: if the issue is sporadic then they should have replaced the packs I have with tested good ones, if it isn't sporadic then why they keep selling those on their own site instead of recalling all the products from Towerhobbies and from the hobby stores? It is also interesting that the price of the pack recently dropped by 25%... I wonder why...

I'm done with them... I probably will never see the replacement packs or my money back.

So if you don't want to trust in your luck and hope for picking up a good one (your odds suck since 6 I know of is not up to the spec - oh yes there is one more just look back in this thread TypeR 126's post on the 9-13) just forget it, get an Orion at least you get from them what you have paid for.
That's some extreme variation right there!

That's terrible though neobubi (how the issue is being handled). Do the packs lose more capacity the more cycles it has on it? Or are the capacities seeming to be "hit or miss"? I wonder if they just used an entire batch of defective cells.

[WJ Birmingham]

Neo;

Let's make something perfectly clear, since you want to bring this into the public light.

We have identified a problem with the packs. We have our engineers working on the issue. The problem has been identified and new tooling is being produced to correct the issue.

I informed you of this personally via e-mail and told you that when we had new product an announcement would be made and anyone having a pack with an issue would be taken care of. The packs DO NOT pose a safety issue.

You, without authorization returned the packs to us, and have then plagued us with e-mails about the issue, right up to and including telling me how to run my business.

The appropriate customer service actions have and are being taken, although not on Neo's timeline. We're sorry Neo that we don't move at your pace, and we wish you well with our competition and their customer service. Maybe when you have an issue with their product you can project your business management philosophies onto them as well.

This is not a case of Apogee being dishonest or purposely providing an unsafe product. We always have stood behind what we sell, and our customer service has done nothing over the past 5 years but improved. We are the ONLY manufacturer to offer a Lifetime "No Fault" Replacement program in this industry for our products.

We thank those who have purchased, used, and sent unsolicited positive e-mails to us commending the product and company. We're sorry we can not satisfy this single individual.

-WJ

[TypeR 126]

Any idea on the timeframe for the new tooling? 1 month, 3 months, etc. Just trying to get a general idea if possible.

Thanks,
Mike

[neobubi]

I think I have all the rights to be pissed off after blowing $400 on packs that are not deliver the performance they are ADVERTISED for. Let's say I buy a product which is not up to its specs I will expect the supplier to replace it or give my money back not next week not three months later but immediately. I don't care about safety I'm talking about performance. If I buy a digital camera which is not working the right way I don't ask for authorization from anybody to return it to the manufacturer I just do and expect my issue to be resolved in a TIMELY manner. Three months is not acceptable. Unfortunately I don't know my rights as a customer in this country otherwise I would seek legal help to get my money back (or replacement which may come sometimes next year).

I've sent you emails every two weeks in the first two months asking for updates and in only one (on 8th of November) I mentioned that I think every pack has the same problem (simple statistics: sample size is 7 out of 7 exactly 7 has the problem thats 100%) and I recommended to recall the rest of the batch and kick your supplier's ass. If that offended you then I'm sorry I had no intent to tell you how to run your business but obviously our opinions are different.

It's funny that you still beat on me and you are the one who still sells those packs and claim that the issue is sporadic. If the packs on your stock are OK then we have nothing to argue anymore just send me 4 new ones of that stock. If they are the same like mine then in my opinion you should stop selling them or you are going to see more pissed of customers soon.

I brought this issue public because I think nobody should buy those 3800 LiMn-s until this issue is sorted out for good.

[nicholcgn]

Well the way I see it is Apogee can do one of 2 things.

1. Hold their ground that they are right and hope that the fairly straight forward evidence does not scare poeple off that they will not get the capacity they pay for. I do not see a safety issue.

2. Immediately work out shipping arrangements of new packs that meet the
capacity or return the customers money so that they can purchase another product.


If you are still selling these packs then you must have some that meet spec.

[neobubi]

It is on backorder on their site since yesterday... that's at least something

But it still on stock on Towerhobbies

[neobubi]

Update on the packs: they are back in stock on pfmdistribution.com. Is this also means that the capacity problem has been solved???

[Craps]

Wow!

After reading this thread, the problem with the product, the false advertizing and the way a customer was handled, I don't think I will be buying any Li-Mn batteries for a very long time.

I'll stick to the Li-pos I have been racing with for over 3 1/2 years!

[neobubi]

Just to close the story: the replacement arrived Yesterday in the mail...