ROAR: No LiPos allowed for 2007

[PeterV]

Latest from www.roarracing.com :

For 2007 Lithium Polymer batteries are not permitted to compete with NiCad or NiMh batteries in electric class racing because the voltages are not equivalent nor do the pack dimensions match those currently observed by ROAR and IFMAR. This rule does not currently affect receiver packs at this time, however ROAR is concerned with the overall safety of these cells when located near or around flammable/combustible materials. ROAR will investigate this further.

The key words here are, "For 2007." ROAR has not adopted a "no LiPos ever" policy. Just wanted to clear that up before the discussion begins! --Pete

[CarbonMadness]

It's a good idea as long as they will keep the current mAh rating where it is. It will help out the people with less money who can't buy new batteries every month just to be competive. But however I was hoping to get so Li-po's for racing, but I guess I will have to wait. We will find out next year at or around this time if we could use them for 2008.

[B4 Stealth]

but lipo's last longer (through more cycles) and hold their charge. there is one racer at my track who charges his lipo's thursday or friday and then runs 3qualifiers and a main without ever touching his charger. and if his lipo battery gets near the point where it would lose punch his lvc just stops the car completely. now I understand we will have to wait another year (or more) for lipo's but can NImh really come any farther forward? and brushed motors have had some new concepts in the past year and they have helped alot, but can anyone really deny the fact that brushless motors and lipo will be the way to go in just a matter of years, would be less but roar is holding us back. anyway before I lost track of myself, as far as your new batteries everymonth theory, lipo's could probably last an entire season on one pack and unless we start running 20min mains lipo's have plenty of capacity, so although it would be more expensive per pack, in theory it would be cheaper in the long run than buying competition level nimh packs. and why did we choose to pull the "more money should not be allowed to equal more performance" card when it comes to batteries. think about it, there is no way with equally skilled drivers a Bandit could catch a B4. and geuss what, you pay for that performance in a chassis. and what about the difference in performance bettween a handwound tuned fresh cut silver brush checkpoint motor and a machine wound reedy flash quad mag owned by someone who cant afford a lathe or good brushes? this is the exact same Higher price == Higher performance. it always has and IMO always will be.

I could go on and on about how you pay for your performance, like dtx streak v.s. novak GTX, and traxxas TQ3 v.s. Futaba 3PK. this will always be the case, so the question is, why is it a problem when you pay more for batteries to achieve higher performance?

that is my rant and thank you for reading, if you have a varying opinion I will respect that as long as you present it in a civil and socially acceptable manner.
NOT THIS
"Well.... you cant make that comparison they are two totally different things"
if you have that point of view explain it, dont just state and run.

p.s. an opinion isn't worth having unless it is worth defending, remember that.

this is not by any means ment to be a flame towards carbon madness, this is just my $.02 plus tax and this seemed like a good place to put it.

[nicholcgn]

The battery cost excuse does not fly with me. I need 3 nimh packs to run 2 cars with no or little practice or I run 1 8000 lipo and have practice time and no issues with the # of time I use the lipo in a day. Basic math is simple and shows that lipo is not realy more expensive. Add a discharge tray and replacing the batteries once a year and lipo gets cheaper.

Voltage excuse - In stock I can buy it to some extent. But If you have to run against someone who drives well and buys top end nimh then you are out of luck. In mod I think it is bogus. You can get more power out of any set of cells than you can put on the track.

Lipo + Mod is probably a good start.

Safety - This is probably the most valid issue all around. But ignoring it is not the answer. ROAR should\could put out some standards as to what they see needing to happen to move legalization forward.

[fastharry]

well,I guess I'll have to forego my ROAR membership fees this year..so I can afford to by 1 extra Nimh pack to run......


Instead of killing this hobby,how about a way to INCREASE racing?..

[InspGadgt]

Voltage excuse - In stock I can buy it to some extent. But If you have to run against someone who drives well and buys top end nimh then you are out of luck. In mod I think it is bogus. You can get more power out of any set of cells than you can put on the track.

Lipo + Mod is probably a good start.

And most likely this is how it will start when it does get legalized just like brushless is now legal in mod classes. Stock is the hangup in both brushless and LiPo because using that technology gives a clear advantage to that driver. The good driver who buys top end NiMh is probably the same driver who will go out and dump a lot of money into brushless and LiPo to have as much advantage as possible so those at the low end of the budget chain are still out of luck.

[Craps]

Latest from www.roarracing.com :

For 2007 Lithium Polymer batteries are not permitted to compete with NiCad or NiMh batteries in electric class racing because the voltages are not equivalent nor do the pack dimensions match those currently observed by ROAR and IFMAR. This rule does not currently affect receiver packs at this time, however ROAR is concerned with the overall safety of these cells when located near or around flammable/combustible materials. ROAR will investigate this further.

The key words here are, "For 2007." ROAR has not adopted a "no LiPos ever" policy. Just wanted to clear that up before the discussion begins! --Pete

What does this mean to 99.9% of ALL RC Racers at 99.9% of ALL RC Races?

NOTHING!!!

There is alot of non-ROAR membered non-ROAR Sanctioned racing events!

[LasagnaCat]

I'm with the above poster... the simplest solution: Don't attend ROAR events.

I won't, and haven't for over a decade for various reasons, most of them backwards thinking ideas like this.

[iiweeldman]

Yeah I don't think I will be attending many ROAR events, if any this year. We have many people at our club track that use lipo batteries. Many of them not super die hard competition junkies, but most just like the convenience of having just one battery per car and not having $300 worth of battery maintenance gear.

Lipo batteries are just as safe as the users that use them. I don’t understand how ROAR can trust people with gallons of Nitro fuel, but not even a small receiver pack in their cars.


-Scott

[dodgeguy]

I have a membership now only because of a track I raced at req it to race. I plan to race at the ROAR onroad nats. But that is probably it. I do not plan on renewing next year. it seems once again I gave away some money and got nothing back. It seems ROAR does not listen to its voting members. I can only vote for the pres and region director. Why can't I vote on the rules to? If I could vote for rules then I would stay a member.

[Ed237]

It's the manufacturers fault, not ROARS. All the lipo companies needed to do was make the batteries the same size and voltage and they would have been legal. But they didnt.

I dont like ROAR either, but somebody has to establish the rules.

Whats the big issue anyhow? If LIPOs are so cheap and last forever everyone can have 1 or 2 for Non-ROAR tracks and also have a couple traditional cells for ROAR tracks.

The bigger question is why faster cars and longer run times are not translating into growth for the RC industry. I dont know the asnwer, but thats the dilemma. It might have something to do with their decision.

[car breaker]

they shouold first abandom the strict body rule. yes racing body make perform better but people want their car look cool. for newby teh body don't matter that much. so quit the boring body rules

[B4 Stealth]

but orions pack is (I think) the same size as a nimh, and I it fits everywhere, land why is size considered a fault anyway? as long as they are similar volts. i think they should be legal. runtime doesnt matter, when was the last time anybody's pack was charged properly and dropped off during a race? unless we get to race times that challenge the runtimes of our cars runtime doesnt matter. and as far as voltage goes, next time your batts come off the charger, measure it, going into the mains my batteries are putting out 7.4-7.8 volts. that is with the benefit of a doubt BETTER than lipo batteries.

[B4 Stealth]

AHAA!! if lipo's and brushless give so much of an advantage, put them in their own class. brushless should be allowed to run in mod, because at the top lvls of competition, brushless isnt winning, now that may be because no1 sponsors it but still, ultimately brushless motors and hand wound BD motors are equal, just brushless motors never need any maintenence. back at the farm, how bout we make a new class where anything with lipo's goes in there? if you read it word for word (the roar announcement) it says that lipo's cant run WITH nimh, maybe this is some genius plan to create a seperate lipo class. I sure as H*** hope so.

[kufman]

Whats the big issue anyhow? If LIPOs are so cheap and last forever everyone can have 1 or 2 for Non-ROAR tracks and also have a couple traditional cells for ROAR tracks.

The problem with "traditional" cells is that they will not be competative 2 months from now when the next new cell comes out or after you run them 10 or so runs.

People think stock class is great for beginners, but I know better. Stock class is just a bigger battery war than any other class. At least lipos hold their performance for a longer period of time. ROAR has pretty much already defeated the advantage of burushless and LiPo anyway with their weight rules. My solution, back to the grass roots tracks in the area. I am tired of buying batteries, motors, brushes, comm tips, bushings, and magnet zappings, all just to get 67W of power at 46.5% efficiency.

For 2007 Lithium Polymer batteries are not permitted to compete with NiCad or NiMh batteries in electric class racing because the voltages are not equivalent nor do the pack dimensions match those currently observed by ROAR and IFMAR

This hasn't stopped ROAR from approving the ever expanding sub-c cell sizes that we currently see in the hobby. Heck, you can't even fit a current cell into older cars because they are not actually sub-c anymore. When will it stop, when we are running 1.5 lb, 4-cell, sub-D packs? The racing organizations around the world have things completely backwards. If they want to help reduce the stress on electronic components and batteries, the solution is not to go down in voltage (but this is a different topic).

[rocknbil]

...... however ROAR is concerned with the overall safety of these cells when located near or around flammable/combustible materials. ....

From the other thread
. . . . I think all lipo batteries should have hard cases on them like Orion's. . . .

If you've done any serious research on what happens when these things blow, you will know a hard case will only make for a more intense exposion, with shrapnel. Lipos burn at over 1000 F. People have trusted in fire safes and they've blown open.

Safety is a legitimate concern with lipos because a very large percentage of those using them don't practice safe handling and charging. All it takes is one short. In the ground RC hobby, there is a much greater potential for damage due to the speed and shock involved. There are hundreds of threads and posts out there, entire houses and cars have burned down.

Those experienced in charging and handling lipos are not the concern here. Some of you are forgetting that the largest percentage in this hobby are NOT experienced racers, they are NOT educated in the handling and dangers of lipo abuse, they're the kid down the block with money to burn and the need to go fast, and all they gather from lipos is lighter-faster-better-I-want-it.

I don't oppose lipos, I use them regularly, but I take the precautions. ROAR has good cause for concern. There are too many inexperienced hobbyists throwing these batteries in like they're harmless. In this age of litigation, what else would you expect? We've really got no one to blame but ourselves.

[nitrothugg]

i'm kinda ignorant when it comes to the lipo technology. so my question is - why are lipo packs pretty much trouble free in other forms of technology like my cell phones, VOIP modem from Comcast or this laptop i'm using now?

what makes "hobby grade" lipo cells so much more riskier then all the other cells out there?

and all of these cells are enclosed in hard plastic cases, why does my cell phone blow up violently?

i just want to know the difference incase i am missing something. :confused:

[Craps]

i'm kinda ignorant when it comes to the lipo technology. so my question is - why are lipo packs pretty much trouble free in other forms of technology like my cell phones, VOIP modem from Comcast or this laptop i'm using now?

what makes "hobby grade" lipo cells so much more riskier then all the other cells out there?

and all of these cells are enclosed in hard plastic cases, why does my cell phone blow up violently?

i just want to know the difference incase i am missing something. :confused:

Good point!

I have over 3 YEARS of offroad racing experience with li-pos and have gotten around 50 racers in person to start using them to make it the most popular electric class in the Charlotte area with 20 minute mains in offroad stadium trucks that we have broken chassis in half and have thrown the batteries out of the trucks with not one accident in 3 years of offroad racing. Now we have over discharged them and swelled them up that I still don't understand why they want to enclose these batteries to hide any kind of problem with the cells.

Been using Thunder Power TP8000-2S4Ps with some of them 2 years old still being raced in 20 to 25 minute races. Great batteries and once they go li-po, they never want to go back to nickel batteries again. Li-pos are cheaper per mah than quality nickel cells per mah!

The truth is that nickel batteries are more dangerous than li-pos with the metal casing that explodes like hot shrapnel from a grenade. At least the li-po will warn you with something wrong by swelling up first.

The future is with li-pos!!!!

[volracer]

What does this mean to 99.9% of ALL RC Racers at 99.9% of ALL RC Races?

NOTHING!!!

There is alot of non-ROAR membered non-ROAR Sanctioned racing events!


The big news was the number of people that even bothered voting.
http://www.roarracing.com/

When you get more people at a national event than bother voting, you can see how irrelevant this organization has become. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[LD3Furious]

Im no electric expert..this is just a guess...the question was raised as to why cell phone, lap top, etc LiPo's are not as dangerous as ground going RCs....fast, high amp charging methods used in RCs.

[CarbonMadness]

Im no electric expert..this is just a guess...the question was raised as to why cell phone, lap top, etc LiPo's are not as dangerous as ground going RCs....fast, high amp charging methods used in RCs.
Don't forget they are used in RC planes.

[fuzzychickens]

Roar just feels it would rather keep technology in the '80s for their events.

I haven't bought anything but li-po batteries for my electric cars for years now. Roar seems like the last to realise there's better technology out there.

Rather than keeping Roar sanctioned racing in the stone age, they should embrace new technology and help define the criteria (rules, specs).

[fuzzychickens]

What does this mean to 99.9% of ALL RC Racers at 99.9% of ALL RC Races?

NOTHING!!!

There is alot of non-ROAR membered non-ROAR Sanctioned racing events!

258 votes out of 4550 members? Holy crap....now I know there are more people racing in RC than that! I think this really shows that ROAR is becoming irrelevant.

[B4 Stealth]

an earlier point made in this thread was that the danger was with the kid's who wanted to go fast up and down the streets, to prevent that would require banning all lipo's in all cars period, to the point of federally illegal, and that just won't happen, the audience roar is directed at is the people who either know how to run lipo, or are in within 30 ft of someone who does!

[volracer]

On another forum, the reason that the Li-Pos were not approved was due to the concerns for fires causing property damage and injuries having an adverse effect on ROAR's ability to get liability insurance. It was stated that the issue would be revisited next year, obviously after they get quates for insurance again.

[Nomadio_Sales]

D.S. has to GO. We are stuck with the president for a while but VP is up for a vote next year. VOTE!

I called the insurance company they KNEW NOTHING about LIPO packs. SMOKE SCREEN FOLKS! It is your insurance policy if you are a ROAR member call them and ask for yourself.

We have to have ROAR because of IFMAR. SO sad

Why is RC PRO doing so much good for the sport and ROAR is not?
RC PRO has less people less money but man are they doing a great job!

[MattHiggins]

What does this mean to 99.9% of ALL RC Racers at 99.9% of ALL RC Races?

NOTHING!!!

There is alot of non-ROAR membered non-ROAR Sanctioned racing events!Wow! Check your blood pressure, man. :) There's no need for anyone to freak out over this. I think we all know LiPo's are the future, and while I think the bold and huge letters are a little over the top, I fully agree--this doesn't impact the vast majority of the people in this hobby and it even doesn't impact even close to the majority of racers. So, don't shoot messenger, and don't let this news get you fired up. Most tracks around the country play by their own rules and you can do whatever you like in your own backyard. Unless, you compete at the ROAR Nats, this probably won't change your life too much.

[Nomadio_Sales]

Problem is ROAR insurance is what is used at a good number of tracks. SO if you have a problem and your not in the rules your exposed.

[MattHiggins]

The way I understand it, ROAR insurance is really just secondary. Should there ever be a claim filed, I have been told that ROAR's insurance kicks in after the track owner's insurance is tapped.

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but most tracks I go to are not ROAR affiliated. It's impossible to really say for sure without surveying all the tracks, but in my experience most tracks are not affiliated and/or carry their own insurance.

[Nomadio_Sales]

Some do some do not there is a $60 fee to get full coverage for your track.
But you are correct most cases it is secondary to the DRIVERS home owners insurance not the tracks.

Adrian with your company coming out with a new Lipo 1:8 scale on road car are you sure you want to back ROAR in this?

[MattHiggins]

I'm not really up on the subject, but I've never heard of the home owner's insurance coming into the picture; to tell you the truth in the 20+ years I've been in the hobby, I've never known of a single claim that's been filed at a track I race at. I would be surprised that a home owner's policy covering any claims that have nothing to do with the policy/property being insured.

[InspGadgt]

Ok first off it 99.9% of the ppl out there aren't going to be effected they why get so upset over something that isn't going to effect you.

The strict body rule: Yes there are a few racers out there who just want a cool body and are unconcerned about performance. However those racers are in the minority. And it won't take long for them to get tired of getting beat all the time by the guys who have advantages like better equipment and better performing cars.

Put them in their own class: While great in idea often all this does is fragment the class to the point that there really isn't enough people in either class. Race attendances and popularity was much better back when there was only stock and mod pan car. The more classes there are the more fragmented the racers become and the sport suffers as a whole.

"The problem with "traditional" cells is that they will not be competative 2 months from now when the next new cell comes out or after you run them 10 or so runs." : This same argument was made for NiMh batteries when they first started coming out because they had so much more run time then NiCad. But we all know the same things kept happening with NiMh as NiCad in terms of the haves and have nots. It is likely the same will happen with LiPo as they become more main stream as well.

"why are lipo packs pretty much trouble free in other forms of technology like my cell phones, VOIP modem from Comcast or this laptop i'm using now?
": The amp rate at which we charge batteries is a lot higher then those technologies...but more importantly the load or amp draw we put on those batteries is considerably more as well.

"Don't forget they are used in RC planes.": Planes have a lot less amp draw as well.

[idontknowwhatim]

Uhh the "safety" thing holds no water...LiPo batteries exist in the drills I use at work and we use them daily in industrial conditions even around gasoline powered compressors etc...conditions that would be on a completely different scale...3 years, no problems at all and UL approval ;)

[rocknbil]

^ ^ But you don't charge them with your Triton charger do you, and it's not up to you to set charging rate, is it? No, you use the manufacturer's charger, see below. (Welcome aboard, even though I don't agree. :D )

why are lipo packs pretty much trouble free in other forms of technology like my cell phones, VOIP modem from Comcast or this laptop i'm using now?

I don't think it's so much the charging amperage, see below. And the truth is, there have been incidents of lipos blowing up - as I recall one law suit about a year an a half ago involved a kid's ear nearly being blown off by a cell phone, and wasn't it Dell that recently recalled thousands of computers due to concerns over potential lipo explosion?

But the point is well taken, consumer electronics definately have less incidents with lipos for three reasons: most of these units have a single cell, the cells themselves are lower amperage, and the most importantly the charging and discharging takes place under conditions created by the manufacturer within measurable tested ranges. You can't shop for 10 different chargers to plug into your laptop like you can with your RC lipos - and therein lies the danger.

(Lipo techs pardon my layman's understanding here . . .)

RC lipos in **whatever** vehicle you put them in are largely mutli celled units. In this hobby most users - air or ground - try to get the most out of their cells, bringing them dangerously close to the 3.0 v discharge per cell under load limit. When you work cells this hard, sooner or later one cell dips below the recommended 3.0 volts under load, or worse yet, the 2.7 VPC redline. You may not notice it immediately, but this damages that cell. It will not keep up with the other cells under charging or discharging. If you don't monitor it - read the voltage of each cell immediately before charging and after discharging - you will never be aware of this imbalance. Charge by charge, run by run, the out-of-balance cell becomes closer and closer to meltdown. It doesn't charge evenly, it doesn't discharge evenly, and the imbalance causes it to discharge faster than the other cells, causing it to also heat up more than the other cells.

This in combination with some of the cheaper balance chargers out there, which don't balance and cutoff each cell as they say they do, set up the potential for one cell to swell, burn, or even explode. Sometimes it's not the faulty cell, it's a poor charger that overcharges one or more of the good cells trying to bring the damaged one up. Or maybe you don't use a balance charger, which is even worse. Many people charge directly through the power jack. It's deadly.

If you read between the lines here, none of this happens instantly. If you meter your cells, you know the cells are drifting out of balance long before there is danger, and you will know if a cell has been overdischarged. Even if you don't meter the cells, there are many signs that will alert you of pending danger. Most cells that blow during a charge precede the event with sizzling, swelling, or smoking with plenty of time to unplug the charger before it blows. (Plenty of threads and video out there.) You just can't charge lipos unattended, period.

So once again, I say that the danger of these cells is not in the technology, it's in their abuse by the end user. And since ROAR cannot control handling by the end user, they have to consider their liabilties. I'm not for it, but I see the reasoning.

[Craps]

So once again, I say that the danger of these cells is not in the technology, it's in their abuse by the end user. And since ROAR cannot control handling by the end user, they have to consider their liabilties. I'm not for it, but I see the reasoning.

What is sad there has been alot of houses burn down due to nickel batteries being charged unattended. This problem of abuse is not just li-pos only....it is all batteries including NICKEL batteries that I see as alot more dangerous than li-pos with that metal casing that hides potential problems and becomes hot flying shrapnel like a grenade when it explodes.

I also find the negative comments about li-po batteries are coming from those with very little to no experience with them and really don't know what they are talking about!!!!!!

[Craps]

Wow! Check your blood pressure, man. :) There's no need for anyone to freak out over this. I think we all know LiPo's are the future, and while I think the bold and huge letters are a little over the top, I fully agree--this doesn't impact the vast majority of the people in this hobby and it even doesn't impact even close to the majority of racers. So, don't shoot messenger, and don't let this news get you fired up. Most tracks around the country play by their own rules and you can do whatever you like in your own backyard. Unless, you compete at the ROAR Nats, this probably won't change your life too much.

Matt
My blood pressure is up over this issue that is holding ROAR back and may even be hurting the future of it by letting itself be influenced by the GREED of a few manufacturers and a few who don't want to lose a performance advantage by having access to a huge amount of nickel cells keeping the best for themselves along with selling all the expensive trick equipment to maintain and increase the performance of nickel cells. :teacher:

To sum it all up, it is all about the money!

[MattHiggins]

Matt
My blood pressure is up over this issue that is holding ROAR back and may even be hurting the future of it by letting itself be influenced by the GREED of a few manufacturers and a few who don't want to lose a performance advantage by having access to a huge amount of nickel cells keeping the best for themselves along with selling all the expensive trick equipment to maintain and increase the performance of nickel cells. :teacher:

To sum it all up, it is all about the money!I can cynical as the next guy, but I'm not sold on the idea that this is 100% (or even 1%) motivated by greed. I run LiPo batteries and I have never had a problem, but I know experienced RC'ers who have. Yes, I also know people who have had NiCad and NiMH packs go bad. I firmly believe LiPo batteries are the future and to a great extent the present, but there have been problems. The issues with the LiPos used in laptops and the related recalls didn't help perceptions.

I do not believe this will be a set back for LiPo technology or its use in RC. The technology will advance and improve outside of RC and we will benefit. If anything, the laptop battery recall and the mainstream attention it received will help us as it will push the battery companies to create even safer cells that are easier to use.

[jocktheglide165]

The big news was the number of people that even bothered voting.
http://www.roarracing.com/

When you get more people at a national event than bother voting, you can see how irrelevant this organization has become. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
ok thats funny.

[MarkWesterfield]

Matt Higgins and rockinbil are the only two sensible ones on this forum.

[Nomadio_Sales]

volracer do you really think that? Because there are SO many things that ROAR allows that are more dangerous, Smoking in the pits with all the brake cleaners and de-greasers not to mention the fuel, Hard Plastic Blade Bumpers on 1:8 scale on road cars, No helmets for off road turn marshals, exposed gears and belts, Hot tuned pipes with no heat shielding the list goes on and on.

[Windsorguy99]

Lithium based technologies are improving in charge/discharge performance as well as stability at a rapid rate.

The problem with the technology lies with the racers who push their packs to (and sometimes beyond) their limits. We've all been in the pits and heard racer's cells start to vent as they push to get that little bit extra out of them...and the charge can be stopped with relatively low damage done...

Overcharging with Lithium based tech isn't quite as simple though, as my understanding is that the only indication of overcharge will be some swelling of the pack, by which point the internal cell chemistry has destabilized and the pack is rendered unsafe to use.

These are issues that are being addressed by the cell manufacturers and IN TIME Lithium based cells surely will take over. I just don't necessarily think that they are ready yet TODAY...close....yes...ready...no..

The problem doesn't sit with those who have run them for years, respect them and take proper precautions...it's those who are careless, or push the envelope.

Another issue that will help Lithium based cells gain acceptance is a standardized size and voltage.

Current chassis designs are optimized for a certain size/weight cell distribution (yes even the Losi although to a lesser degree than most) Chassis manufacturers will need to re-engineer their platforms to suit the change in mass distribution with these packs. How can they do this, though when there IS NO SET mass distribution or size for lithium based packs?

These are minor hurdles..but they are issues that will need to be addressed prior to the cells being accepted for sanctioned racing and broad-based acceptance.

[Nomadio_Sales]

But by placing a ban on the cells the hurdles will not be addressed as fast as they could be. Would you not agree? If a mfg knows that the cells can't be used in ROAR races then that pushes IFMAR and the other blocks to ban them as well. Thus the car companies, cell companies and charger MFGs will not put the R&D into them any time soon. However, if you allow them the R&D will flow and flow very quickly. NO ONE wants to burn up a car or a house or a Pit table at a race. NO ONE! Let the market push the safety and design.

[Windsorguy99]

That same arguement could apply to placing the rules wide open with no restrictions on *any* technology we are currently using.

I believe the the onus falls on the manufacturers or those with a vested interest in the technology to present a sound business case to gain acceptance. Opening everything up would create a vastly uneven playing field with potential safety issues in order to go through this development cycle.

A successful petition by a manufacturer, showing that it has addressed the issues with the technology can be used to set a blueprint as the standard. Simply observe what happened when Novak successfully petitioned for brushless and the standard was set with their product layout (sensor wires, colours, etc) being adopted as standard.

[metalry101]

A successful petition by a manufacturer, showing that it has addressed the issues with the technology can be used to set a blueprint as the standard. Simply observe what happened when Novak successfully petitioned for brushless and the standard was set with their product layout (sensor wires, colours, etc) being adopted as standard.
What possible safety issues were there with BL? Sensored brushless setups are allowed while sensorless systems are banned because Novak and LRP have more sponsorship dollars, not because of any safety reason.

[Windsorguy99]

Didn't mean to imply that there were safety issues with brushless, merely that Novak and LRP successfully petitioned for their products to gain acceptance and made the successful arguments to be legal for implementation....

[metalry101]

Didn't mean to imply that there were safety issues with brushless, merely that Novak and LRP successfully petitioned for their products to gain acceptance and made the successful arguments to be legal for implementation....
Gotcha.

The point about sensored being allowed while sensorless is not still stands however.

[Windsorguy99]

Which sensorless systems were submitted for approval and denied?

[metalry101]

Which sensorless systems were submitted for approval and denied?
I have no idea if any were submitted, but the fact that ROAR wrote the rule stating that only sensored systems are allowed implies that someone in ROAR, or at Novak or LRP, is worried about a competing technology. I could be wrong, but that's what it says to me.

[RrR]

Uhh the "safety" thing holds no water...LiPo batteries exist in the drills I use at work and we use them daily in industrial conditions even around gasoline powered compressors etc...conditions that would be on a completely different scale...3 years, no problems at all and UL approval ;) Who make those drills?

[RControl Freak]

they may be waiting for lipos to improve, since they are pretty new, and still slightly unstable!

[LD3Furious]

Home Depot has a Skil 18v Lipo drill...Im sure there's others out there.

[InspGadgt]

volracer do you really think that? Because there are SO many things that ROAR allows that are more dangerous, Smoking in the pits with all the brake cleaners and de-greasers not to mention the fuel, Hard Plastic Blade Bumpers on 1:8 scale on road cars, No helmets for off road turn marshals, exposed gears and belts, Hot tuned pipes with no heat shielding the list goes on and on.

Yes those things are dangerous...but more dangerous? Only smoking in the pits I would consider more dangerous because that is the only thing there that has explosive potential.

[InspGadgt]

But by placing a ban on the cells the hurdles will not be addressed as fast as they could be. Would you not agree? If a mfg knows that the cells can't be used in ROAR races then that pushes IFMAR and the other blocks to ban them as well. Thus the car companies, cell companies and charger MFGs will not put the R&D into them any time soon. However, if you allow them the R&D will flow and flow very quickly. NO ONE wants to burn up a car or a house or a Pit table at a race. NO ONE! Let the market push the safety and design.

Actually I think quite the opposite is true. If you place bans and manufacturers want their products to be usable they will have to try harder to make their products meet ROARs approval which will promote safety faster. If you just allow the products there is no incentive for manufacturers to change a thing.

[ElectricThunder]

I have no idea if any were submitted, but the fact that ROAR wrote the rule stating that only sensored systems are allowed implies that someone in ROAR, or at Novak or LRP, is worried about a competing technology. I could be wrong, but that's what it says to me.
Sensorless is allowed in ROAR. It just so happens that there hasn't been too many sensorless motors that follow ROAR specs yet that I know of. However, I believe the motor Hacker is working on is sensorless and ROAR legal, and Trinity's motors are sensorless and I think they were recently approved as ROAR legal.

And Bob Novak is the one who got brushless legalized for the most part in terms of taking the initiative. He's the one who apparently got everyone (manufacturers and ROAR) together and set a spec for brushless. That's why the specs "favor" Novak motors. I think initially ROAR stated only sensored, but that must have been changed (8.7.5.1 I think is where it states sensored and sensorless are both legal).

I personally don't give a crap about ROAR or any other race sanctioning bodies though. :D

[RControl Freak]

I personally don't give a crap about ROAR or any other race sanctioning bodies though. :D


AMEN!!!!! :D

[Windsorguy99]

Sensorless is allowed in ROAR. It just so happens that there hasn't been too many sensorless motors that follow ROAR specs yet that I know of. However, I believe the motor Hacker is working on is sensorless and ROAR legal, and Trinity's motors are sensorless and I think they were recently approved as ROAR legal.

I personally don't give a crap about ROAR or any other race sanctioning bodies though. :D

The conspiracy theories are much more entertaining though....

[Nomadio_Sales]

Windsorguy your argument is moot until such time ROAR sets what the specs are no one is going to spend dime one to develop cars batteries or chargers until they have a set of specs to build to that ROAR will accept. Just SAY NO attitude from ROAR is not helping. ;)

For those of you who can give a rats about ROAR your not going to see cars and batteries take the next leap unless they can be used in racing on a world championship level with IFMAR and ROAR. Yes ROAR holds a BIG chunk of clout with IFMAR it is in the IFMAR charter. So you should give a care ;)

[Windsorguy99]

Brushless and the current sub-C technologies gained acceptance when manufacturers sent specification proposals and samples in...why should lithium cell technology be different?

[ElectricThunder]

Yes ROAR holds a BIG chunk of clout with IFMAR it is in the IFMAR charter. So you should give a care ;)
I don't race, so it doesn't really affect me at all in terms of what I can and cannot run in my RC trucks and cars. I can STILL go out and buy a lipo and use it despite ROAR ruling them "illegal" because I just bash around.

I've NEVER been into racing, and most likely never will be. This hobby is supposed to be fun, and to me, racing just isn't fun. :eek:

[The_Mini_Me]

Im a 1/18th scale racer (and yes, I used to do bigger scales and ROAR events). Roar has no effect on me currently. Wish it would sometimes though as I see manufacturers "bending" rules as what is 1/18th scale.

Anyhow, I hope ROAR does get on board. We need a specific balancer plug standardization. Versus each manufacturer having their own. rocknbil is on the right track. When ROAR does get around to recognizing, what they should focus on is making it ALL lipo sanctioned chargers have a balancing function, and ALL lipo packs must use the same balancing plug setup.

I cant believe that many higher end manufacturers are coming out with Lipo chargers and packs without a balancing function (*cough Orion *cough). Sure, with 2 cells this isn't necessary as much. But its still part of the safety issue. Even the vaunted Ice lacks this.

With Apogees new Li-mn technology really is leading the way to making lithium a much easier idea to swallow.

[volracer]

volracer do you really think that? Because there are SO many things that ROAR allows that are more dangerous, Smoking in the pits with all the brake cleaners and de-greasers not to mention the fuel, Hard Plastic Blade Bumpers on 1:8 scale on road cars, No helmets for off road turn marshals, exposed gears and belts, Hot tuned pipes with no heat shielding the list goes on and on.

Absolutely

My comments about the insurance coverage come from an industry insider posted on another board. I have worked for commercial insuranance evauluating liability exposure. These companies are run by paranoid people trying to stay ahead of what the courts might say tomorrow and what a "reasonable person" should do. I just hope that they did not read your suggestions. But ultimately, some insurance company will decide thaere has not been a history of losses and moeny can be made insuring r/c racing with lipos and the rules will change.

[Nomadio_Sales]

If the insurance company was really looking at ROAR / R/C racing or bashing at tracks I can assure you that driver’s stands and pits would be bigger issues then batteries ;)

Heck one of the main tracks in So. Cal where Rick Wilson used to race uses a Pallet rack not even secured to the ground as their drivers stand and has from day one they opened. So do not hide behind insurance issues.

Most tracks I see have fire violations up the kazoo just in the electrical hookups in the pits. Which I might add seldom have fire extinguishers required under ROAR rules as well.

[volracer]

http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/03/technology/batteries/index.htm?cnn=yes

"ROAR fully intends to revisit the LiPo question annually. For now LiPo's are banned in R/C vehicles due to how sensitive the pack are to crashes. Between the fires that have happened this year from LiPo reciever packs and the insurance companies worries about LiPo we had no choice but to ban them until there is a more stable cell technology.

For now LiPo Transmitter packs are still allowed since thay are not subjected to the jarring and crashing packs in cars are subjected to. However, if we see ANY problems with their use we will have no choice but to ban them too."

The link may explain part of the perception of LiPo batteries. And the quote above is what I read on another forum.

[The_Mini_Me]

You should read the article you posted futher. It was referencing Lithium Ion. Later in the article:

"Donald Sadoway, a professor of materials science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said it's often the case that new technology isn't greeted with open arms.

He's been researching lithium polymer batteries, which hold lithium in a solid state rather than liquid form, which makes them more stable and capable of withstanding more heat."

[volracer]

Yes, the article is not directed specifically at LiPos, but just as the media makes generalizations about different groups of people; the public accepts these characterizations and applies them to their judgments.

When evaluated product liability, I once was sent to a company that made drills for brain surgery. The insurance company backed away because of the possibility of a wind failure in the motors, even though there was no history. The potential for loss was too great.

Also, the market forces for laptop batteries is far greater than the R/C market. Maybe the need for better batteries in small electronic devices will provide a more acceptable battery for R/C.

[MarkWesterfield]

Guys please read thorugh the ROAR rulebook if your going to complain about ROAR rules. Then perhaps you might find that it is yourself or your own local track that perhaps isn't following and upholding the rules that some complain don't exist.

1.5.1 Tobacco products: All ROAR tracks and clubs should provide adequate smoking and chewing facilities to separate (or at least place down wind) the use of tobacco products from those with children or those wishing not to be confronted by tobacco smoke and wastes. Since laws vary across North America, this rule remains a recommendation. ROAR cannot make something illegal that lies outside of our jurisdiction. Otherwise, ROAR would outlaw the use of tobacco products at all ROAR events.

1.5.2 Open flames or smoking are prohibited within 50 feet of areas where fuel (either nitro or gasoline) is present.

8.7.5.1 Sensored or sensorless motors are allowed.

6.2.1 Bumpers are not required in all classes, but when used, they must be shock absorbing and non-metallic, with no sharp edges. For safety, rigid bumpers, such as fiberglass and composites, are not permitted.

2.4.6 Off-road jumps should be designed so that they minimize damage to cars in the normal course of racing, do not pose a hazard to turn marshals, and do not interfere with timing and lap scoring. Special care should be taken when placing jumps close to the entry or exit from the pit lane to ensure that cars entering or exiting the pits are not damaged by cars negotiating the jumps.

Go complain to the LiPo manufacturers, your fellow racers and the track owners when rules are not followed. Don't complain about ROAR when it is your own damn fault for buying batteries that are not legal for ROAR races, you guys knew they were not legal when you bought them.

1.1.8 It is the responsibility of members, track owners, and race sponsors to meet all rules and specifications contained in this rulebook, in the National Guidelines for the current year, or issued by ROAR in the Rev-Up Newsletter, in letter form, or posted on the ROAR website.

The rules are not there to make sure everyone has the latest, greatest technology. They are there to make sure racing is fair for everybody.

[MarkWesterfield]

Special News just for all the ROAR haters...

RC Pro series has allowed LiPo...

Brushless Truck Class and 1/18 Open

1. Lipo batteries are now legal with no MAH limit. Voltage limit is 7.4v. NO built in or add on items of any kind to alter voltage.

Mod 4wd, Mod Truck and Mod Buggy

1. Brushless motors are now legal for all mod classes.
2. Lipo batteries that conform to the maximum 4300 MAH set for the 2007 will be legal for ONLY MOD classes. Voltage limit is 7.4v. NO built in or add on items of any kind to alter voltage.
Examples of legal Lipo packs
Orion 3200
Peak 3200
Apogee 3800

Stock Buggy/Truck, Mod Buggy/Truck and Mod 4wd
1. New MAH limit will be 4300mah. This includes Lipo/LiMn for the Mod classes.
2. NO Brushless motors in stock classes.
3. NO Lipo/LiMn in stock classes.

http://electricoffroad.rcprosites.com/

[MattHiggins]

Great posts, Mark. I've learned something--no wait! I know everything! Just kidding, of course. I admit I'm not as up on the rules as I should be, and it looks like others aren't as well.

LiPo cells are here to stay. ROAR can't change that and from what I can tell, isn't looking to change that.

The really good news is that by the time we finish arguing about LiPo cells and ROAR, all-new cell chemestry will be here and we'll have just wasted our time.

[Nomadio_Sales]

Not ROAR haters just wanting ROAR to pull its head out. You forgot to post the rules for drivers stands and fire equipment that go by the way side as well. Batteries are not the problem here.

Just shows how much RC Pro is doing on the positive side to promote R/C while ROAR gets lapped.

[MarkWesterfield]

It also shows how RC Pro is willing to milk the Lipo cash cow while ROAR takes a more cautious approach to ensure safety. Didn't somebody mention something about ROAR being greedy? Of coarse this new rule isn't fair to the guys that have sponsors that don't allow them to run other companies batteries. Trinity, Reedy, SMC, you know, those companies that sponsor and promote R/C racing and have done so for decades.

The best part about the new Pro Series rules, there is no difference between a truck that can run in brushless class and a truck that can run in modified class, except the mah limit in mod. But since there are no size restrictions on the size of cells, number of cells or really any specific criteria what-so-ever except for a voltage of 7.4 volts (which a charged lipo is anywhere between 7.4v and 8.4v). How do they plan on teching the Lipo's? They don't even require manufacturer labels on the cells! Maybe its because they have no intention of checking them at all? Are hastily, non specific, and unfair rules good for r/c racing?

I personally don't have a problem with Lipo batteries, I've owned them without problems, but I don't want some newb pitting next to me that doesn't have that same fortune.

[Craps]

Special News just for all the ROAR haters...

RC Pro series has allowed LiPo...

Brushless Truck Class and 1/18 Open

1. Lipo batteries are now legal with no MAH limit. Voltage limit is 7.4v. NO built in or add on items of any kind to alter voltage.

Mod 4wd, Mod Truck and Mod Buggy

1. Brushless motors are now legal for all mod classes.
2. Lipo batteries that conform to the maximum 4300 MAH set for the 2007 will be legal for ONLY MOD classes. Voltage limit is 7.4v. NO built in or add on items of any kind to alter voltage.
Examples of legal Lipo packs
Orion 3200
Peak 3200
Apogee 3800

Stock Buggy/Truck, Mod Buggy/Truck and Mod 4wd
1. New MAH limit will be 4300mah. This includes Lipo/LiMn for the Mod classes.
2. NO Brushless motors in stock classes.
3. NO Lipo/LiMn in stock classes.

http://electricoffroad.rcprosites.com/


You were doing so well with the above post and then you went off in the wrong and very very inaccurrate direction with the post below!!!!

It also shows how RC Pro is willing to milk the Lipo cash cow while ROAR takes a more cautious approach to ensure safety. Didn't somebody mention something about ROAR being greedy? Of coarse this new rule isn't fair to the guys that have sponsors that don't allow them to run other companies batteries. Trinity, Reedy, SMC, you know, those companies that sponsor and promote R/C racing and have done so for decades.

The best part about the new Pro Series rules, there is no difference between a truck that can run in brushless class and a truck that can run in modified class, except the mah limit in mod. But since there are no size restrictions on the size of cells, number of cells or really any specific criteria what-so-ever except for a voltage of 7.4 volts (which a charged lipo is anywhere between 7.4v and 8.4v). How do they plan on teching the Lipo's? They don't even require manufacturer labels on the cells! Maybe its because they have no intention of checking them at all?

I am sorry to correct you, but I raced in the first Electric Pro Series in the East division this year in the Brushless class that I lobbied Carlton Epes very hard to add li-pos the first season and was rejected that cost the series alot of entries in my area due to so many that use li-pos in our 20 minute main Pro Truck class. Carlton wanted to, but polled the tracks nationwide and learned that so many track owners had been misinformed about li-pos with the usual BS about explosions and safety issues. He did assure me in the next season he was going to add them and he lived up to his word. I was pushing for the approval of 8,000 mah packs and longer mains in brushless truck that has been successfull in my area that he delivered as his racers requested.

ROAR should learn from the Pro Series and listen to the racers instead of the greed of a few manufacturers.

I applaud Carlton Epes in the Pro Series for being a visionary for RC racing and listening to his racers.

[MarkWesterfield]

point specific where I was VERY VERY INNACCURATE.

Was it here?...
It also shows how RC Pro is willing to milk the Lipo cash cow while ROAR takes a more cautious approach to ensure safety.

or here?...
Didn't somebody mention something about ROAR being greedy?

maybe here?...
Of coarse this new rule isn't fair to the guys that have sponsors that don't allow them to run other companies batteries. Trinity, Reedy, SMC, you know, those companies that sponsor and promote R/C racing and have done so for decades.

how about this one?...
The best part about the new Pro Series rules, there is no difference between a truck that can run in brushless class and a truck that can run in modified class, except the mah limit in mod.

try here...
But since there are no size restrictions on the size of cells, number of cells or really any specific criteria what-so-ever except for a voltage of 7.4 volts (which a charged lipo is anywhere between 7.4v and 8.4v).

this one?...
How do they plan on teching the Lipo's? They don't even require manufacturer labels on the cells!

it has to be this one...
Maybe its because they have no intention of checking them at all?

[MattHiggins]

This isn't directed at any one person. It goes for all of us.

Just a friendly reminder to keep this thread respectful. Let's not get wrapped up in an online debate. Let's stick to the facts and talk like adults. Remember opinion are like ... well, you know.

[Aluma]

plus when is ROAR gonna get rid of that dumb bushings in stock motors deal too?

It's really getting annoying having to lube the motor every run...seriously, how much more rpm's can you get with a bearing?

[MattHiggins]

plus when is ROAR gonna get rid of that dumb bushings in stock motors deal too?

It's really getting annoying having to lube the motor every run...seriously, how much more rpm's can you get with a bearing?That's a legit question, but off topic. No worries, though. I'm as guilty as anyone of hijacking threads, but this thread isn't about what people think ROAR is doing wrong. It's specifically about ROAR's recent ruling on LiPo batteries.

Should everyone posting be listing their current ROAR member number? I don't really think they should; my point is just how many of us are actual ROAR members, and how many of us are doing anything more than complaining. Nobody is voting; that's for sure. If you're not voting, are you getting involved in some other way. How many people here volunteer at the regional level. ROAR is what we make of it. In my opinion, you get involved before you sit back and complain. The person you should be blaming may be yourself. ROAR is 100% volunteer driven. If you want it to change, get involved.

[ElectricThunder]

8.7.5.1 Sensored or sensorless motors are allowed.
Ah...I was right about what number rule that was. Thank you.

Anyways... Just how many people DO race in full out electric ROAR races anyways who are from this board (which this lipo "ban" would affect)? I'm curious actually.

[motoxr]

earlier in this thread, somebody made a comment about how these batteries are used in laptops ect without probs. well, sony had to recall more than a million batteries because of guess what? fires and explosions related to the lithium polymer batteries. and there are countless other recalls with these kind of batteries including phones catching on fire! So yes these bats can be used responsibly, but there is the distinct possibilty of having problems with them especially in the wrong hands. :rolleyes:

[tallyrc]

as these batteries gain acceptance, the knowledge and understanding of proper use and care will follow... i've seen plenty of NiCd blow up like bombs too before folks learned how to properly charge them... and we had them in the hobby for years!

[MattHiggins]

In over 20 years of RC I have never seen a NiCd or NiMH explode like a bomb. I've seen a few make some noise, smoke and melt due to improper charging, but I have never seen one blow up. I have also never seen a LiPo explode, but I know people that have had them expand and basically go bad during charging. In all honesty when comparing the different types of cells, if I were to recommend a battery type to someone new--I would recommend NiCd or NiMH. In my personal opinion, you can screw up any of these cells, but it is easier to screw up a LiPo.

[tallyrc]

lemme look for that picture i saw posted on here of the nimh cell that went through the trailer..

[tallyrc]

here ya go.. i've been doing this since 88' and have only gotten one to go off real good once.. http://rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=125601&page=1&pp=30&highlight=amps+explode%2A

my only point is that anythng when mistreated can be dangerous.. and like i say "everytime i make something idiotproof, they make a better idiot"

[B4 Stealth]

it's like an arms race for the destruction of humanity! lol

[RControl Freak]

Hey, if you're stupid enough, anything can be dangerous, but, I'd have to agree with Matt above, if you're new, than the proven Nicd and NiMH are the way to go!

[trailranger]

Its there game, they can ban it. I'll put my bets on Ag-Li being a saffer bettery than Li-Po.. This shows some promise in safety, but I havent heard any word on voltages and capacity. I have heard that they are not as voltage sensitive and be dropped lower volts than Li-Po.

[tallyrc]

Ag-Li you got me on that one. i googled it and can find nothing. what are they like?

[MarkWesterfield]

I think that Lipo's should be made legal when more speed controls have voltage cutoff to prevent the batteries from getting damaged internally and more manufacturers encase them to prevent physical damage. Chargers are widely available, but there are only a handful of speed controls that help prevent damage and only one manufacturer that has protected cells.

I think a major concern with Lipo's is that they become damaged after over-discharge, which is easy to do without a cutoff, and then become become dangerous when charged thereafter.

[trailranger]

Ag-Li you got me on that one. i googled it and can find nothing. what are they like?
I ment to type Ag-Zn

Google "Zinc Matrix" "Solicore" "Silver Zinc"
Also not Ag-Zn, but maybe worth looking at.
"Nexelion"
"A123systems"
"Tyco"

[The_Mini_Me]

earlier in this thread, somebody made a comment about how these batteries are used in laptops ect without probs. well, sony had to recall more than a million batteries because of guess what? fires and explosions related to the lithium polymer batteries. and there are countless other recalls with these kind of batteries including phones catching on fire! So yes these bats can be used responsibly, but there is the distinct possibilty of having problems with them especially in the wrong hands. :rolleyes:

Also earlier in this thread someone linked to an article that just disproved your complaint. Those are lithium ion packs.

However, you comment does demonstrate volracers point about the unfortunate ignorance of the public between cell types with "lithium" in the name.

[trailranger]

Pretty much all I can gather is that these cells have 1.5 working volts, Slightly higher than 1.2V for NiMH. They are absolutly safe from toxic chemicals and thermal run-away. They should have between 2x~3x the power density of NiMH batteries but I could not find any discharge rates "C"

[fastharry]

In over 20 years of RC I have never seen a NiCd or NiMH explode like a bomb. I've seen a few make some noise, smoke and melt due to improper charging, but I have never seen one blow up. I have also never seen a LiPo explode, but I know people that have had them expand and basically go bad during charging. In all honesty when comparing the different types of cells, if I were to recommend a battery type to someone new--I would recommend NiCd or NiMH. In my personal opinion, you can screw up any of these cells, but it is easier to screw up a LiPo.



You should have been at barnstormers in NY 2 years ago.....I almost jumped from chester to the NJ border.......

[NitroBoy24]

Woohoo, way to shut the door on more advanced technology!

[Craps]

Putting li-pos in a case like Orion and few of them do is the WRONG thing to do with them. The case will hide doing a visual inspection of cells that a li-po will swell up if there is a problem with cell imbalance giving advance notice of a problem along with they need room to expand versuses being in a case you can not see any problems and like nickel batteries make them explode without any warning due to being hidden in the case throwing hot metal casing like shrapnel from a grenade.

Li-pos are tougher than people give them credit for and they are most sensitive to over discharge abuse. There is several ESCs in the brushless world with automatic low voltage cut offs and Novak has even came out with an add on one.

Some of the li-po manufacturers do at least offer a limited warranty to replace them for any kind of problem that occurs that nickel battery manufacturers don't have. Most will let you send in an older li-po to exchange or upgrade to the newer type for around 1/2 price.

Most of the Pro Truck racers just own 1 8000 mah li-po that never comes out of the truck. Recharging is like filling up a fuel tank and with an 8 amp charger it cuts the charging time down. Most recharge while TMing the next race and it will almost be ready to go when they get finished TMing.

I know of over 50 people who have owned li-pos in the Charlotte area for Pro Trucks over the 3 years of using li-pos with not 1 accident. Alot of this information is what Carlton Epes has based his decision on allowing li-pos in some of the classes. We were asking for the Brushless Truck Class to go from 10 minutes to 20 minute mains that 4300 mahs will not make, but the 8000 mah li-pos will go for 25 to 30 minutes with no problems. I know Carlton was allowing Brushless in the Mod Truck class for those that don't want to convert to li-pos and race in the shorter mains. Again he listen to the racers that is something ROAR should do!!!!!

Common sense in off road racing is that 80% is driver and of the remaining 20% equipment I will lay on tire choice being alot of it. What good is all that power if the driver don't have the skill to use it and the tires to hook it up.

[B4 Stealth]

i think he has it down, I vote him for the roar president!!!

[MarkWesterfield]

Common sense isn't for common people.

I've been racing r/c cars for 25+ years, know hundreds of people, and I don't recall ever seeing a nicd/nimh cell explode throwing hot metal casing like shrapnel from a grenade. Doesn't mean it has not happened.

the same applies to your personal experience..."I know of over 50 people who have owned li-pos in the Charlotte area for Pro Trucks over the 3 years of using li-pos with not 1 accident." That doesn't mean that accidents wont happen.

I don't have a problem with Lipo being legal, don't get me wrong. I would like for the industry to be more prepared for it when it is legal. I would suggest something as simple as Lipo would be ROAR legal as of January 1st, 2008. Not that specific date mind you, just plenty of time so that the majority of the racing public knows well in advanced when they need to have the required equipment to run Lipo's safely. I gather from your posts, that you would like Lipo (an obviously better technology, no argument there) legal right now, even though the majority of racers (majority rules) have older style chargers, speed controls, and batteries.

Now, you bought your batteries and the support equipment knowing that Lipo's were not legal for ROAR racing. Why should the majority of racers be put at a disadvantage because the minority purchased illegal equipment and feels it should be made legal because its better? Why should the majority be obligated (to remain competitive) to purchase new batteries and support equipment when they have been buying legal equipment and following the rules and supporting ROAR? Note how this point has nothing to do with Lipo misconceptions. Simply, be patient and give the hobby time to adapt. Everybody knows that Lithium based batteries are where the industry is headed, nobody is arguing that, just stop trying to cram it down everybody's throats. You guys act like bullies, and its not working, try another approach, try patience and understanding. Try developing a set of guidelines and rules for a trial lithium based class to be used at regional and national events. Make sure they include a cutoff system, battery capacity, battery weight, number of cells and configuration, correct charging means. See how popular your class is.

[Craps]

I've been racing r/c cars for 25+ years

Forgot to welcome the newbie to RC Zones Forums since you joined 11-13-2006 almost 8 days ago with only 9 post that are all in this thread! :roll2: :roll2: :roll2:

Welcome!!! :D :wave:

I don't have a problem with Lipo being legal, don't get me wrong. I would like for the industry to be more prepared for it when it is legal.

Like Trinity and others who are behind in the technology to get geared up to sell them that will be after they unload all the old nickel batteries, nickel battery accessories and anything else nickel battery related. It is all about greed with the ones in control and has nothing to do with the Racers. :teacher:

Geez! The airplane RC industry transformed overnight and you don't see them banning li-pos including alot of indoor competition.

[kufman]

if roar is truley worried about safety, they would make other changes that make more sense. For instance, ban the use of switches on ESC's, brushed and brushless. All they do is turn off power to the radio, they don't remove the voltage from across the FET's. I have been in the hobby for a long time and I can't tell you how many times I have seen an ESC be OFF and the motor going full bore as soon as the battery is connected.

How about the use of fuses?

Radio impound?

Shrinkwrap on batteries to prevent shorting?

How about smoking indoors? this keeps me from going to many tracks. You ban a battery because it might cause a fire and yet let people walk around with little portable fires... makes sense to me.

How about the forced use of connectors or other quick disconnect means in case of previously mentioned ESC failure??

Designated areas for aerosol cans like motor spray which is highly flamable and could easily ignite if it came into contact with a soldering iron. It also contains enough chemicals to kill a dinosaur.
......

The list can go on and on. Banning LiPo for safety reasons is just an easy out.

[CarbonMadness]

if roar is truley worried about safety, they would make other changes that make more sense. For instance, ban the use of switches on ESC's, brushed and brushless. All they do is turn off power to the radio, they don't remove the voltage from across the FET's. I have been in the hobby for a long time and I can't tell you how many times I have seen an ESC be OFF and the motor going full bore as soon as the battery is connected.

How about the use of fuses?

Radio impound?

Shrinkwrap on batteries to prevent shorting?

How about smoking indoors? this keeps me from going to many tracks. You ban a battery because it might cause a fire and yet let people walk around with little portable fires... makes sense to me.

How about the forced use of connectors or other quick disconnect means in case of previously mentioned ESC failure??

Designated areas for aerosol cans like motor spray which is highly flamable and could easily ignite if it came into contact with a soldering iron. It also contains enough chemicals to kill a dinosaur.
......

The list can go on and on. Banning LiPo for safety reasons is just an easy out.
How about the use of fuses? "Radio impound? Shrinkwrap on batteries to prevent shorting?"
Last time I checked they have that. (well the fuses are on the charger mostly, but that’s about it)


As for the aerosol zone, that would be a good idea if say it were out doors (or an area with really good ventilation, other wise it could cause an explosion. You mentioned that a soldering iron could ignite it, but what about the people who smoke as they already have the fire going (it will ignite faster with a fire over something that very, very hot).

[MarkWesterfield]

1.5.1 Tobacco products: All ROAR tracks and clubs should provide adequate smoking and chewing facilities to separate (or at least place down wind) the use of tobacco products from those with children or those wishing not to be confronted by tobacco smoke and wastes. Since laws vary across North America, this rule remains a recommendation. ROAR cannot make something illegal that lies outside of our jurisdiction. Otherwise, ROAR would outlaw the use of tobacco products at all ROAR events.

1.5.2 Open flames or smoking are prohibited within 50 feet of areas where fuel (either nitro or gasoline) is present.

2.3 RADIO IMPOUND
2.3.1 Radio Impounds are required for all Level 3 and Level 4 events. It is suggested that lower
level events establish a Radio Impound area if possible. All radio transmitters, including
those operating on 2.4GHz DSM/DSS, must be impounded prior to the start of the first
qualifier, and prior to start of racing on subsequent days. It is recommended that radios be
disarmed by the driver at the time of impound and when returned after a race, by removing
the battery pack, module, or crystal. Radios will be released at the end of the day's
activities, or when a driver is leaving the race site. If release is prior to the end of the day's
activities, the radio must be disarmed.
Note: The impounding of modules only without the full transmitter is not allowed.
2.3.2 The Race Director will provide:
 Protected and secured storage for impounded radios
 Procedures to ensure that impounded radios are turned off
 Procedures to ensure an orderly dispersal of radios for racing use
 Procedures to ensure that no more than one radio on any one frequency is released from
impound in any race.
2.3.3 Radios designed to operate servos without transmitting RF (usually by means of a direct
connection between the transmitter and the receiver) may be used in the pits if approved
by the Race Director. In such cases, all of the racer’s modules or transmitter crystals for
that radio system must be impounded.
Note: If drivers are allowed to impound their own radios, they should be reminded frequently to
ensure that their radios are off and disarmed when impounded.

[Nomadio_Sales]

When was the last time you say any of those rules used or the "recommendation" enforced?

Dawn will the RMT enforce the rules and recommendation at events they run?

[kufman]

1.5.1 Tobacco products: All ROAR tracks and clubs should provide adequate smoking and chewing facilities to separate (or at least place down wind) the use of tobacco products from those with children or those wishing not to be confronted by tobacco smoke and wastes. Since laws vary across North America, this rule remains a recommendation. ROAR cannot make something illegal that lies outside of our jurisdiction. Otherwise, ROAR would outlaw the use of tobacco products at all ROAR events.

This should be better. Just as a track must meet certain requirements to hold a ROAR race, the rules should also require this. Their last sentence is their cop-out statement.

ROAR has requirements for nitro running indoors and that is only for 5 minutes at a time. The drivers are smoking the rest of the time~! How do you kill yourself with an automobile again??? Oh ya, put it in a confined space and leave the engine running.....


For the record... I don't personally care anyway because I will not attend a ROAR event.

[MarkWesterfield]

When was the last time you have seen your fellow racers care about the rules anyway? How many racers have even read the rules. You've already seen a few on this forum that don't. They wont even check to see if a rule even exists before they complain about it not existing.

[kufman]

I hate to see a major ruling body stifle the advancement of this hobby because of an inconsistancy in the way they think. We have to ban this because it is dangerous, but not this.

[MarkWesterfield]

Hey Craps, you never did respond to my other comments. I still want to hear your opinion...
"Now, you bought your batteries and the support equipment knowing that Lipo's were not legal for ROAR racing. Why should the majority of racers be put at a disadvantage because the minority purchased illegal equipment and feels it should be made legal because its better? Why should the majority be obligated (to remain competitive) to purchase new batteries and support equipment when they have been buying legal equipment and following the rules and supporting ROAR?"

[trailranger]

But they won't rule on 1/18 scale classes so that cell count, size, mass, motors will be the rules so that manufactures will make class ready to race micro r/c vehicles. The micro scene, along with the monster truck scene is all mess with different standards. 1/18 has 4,5,6,7 cell NiMH and 2S, 3S lipos with differing motor sizes and motor systems. The Monster truck scene has an ungodly amount of tire sizes available, and scale choices along with engine choices. What scale should I race? 1/10 with 1/8 tires? 1/7th?, 1/8 with buggy tires? 6-wheels? Yes I have seen a 6-wheel truck on the track.

How can someone call someone out for cheating if the rules are not defined?
How can the consumers adjust to the changing market if the rules are absent?
The consumers deserve better treatment or the hobby will just degrade. Give the manufactures some guidance on what will be allowed to race, and the consumers will be supportive of those race classes. If not there will just be the flavor-of-the-week mentality that you will have to have this car, with this motor, with this battery this week to be competitive this week. This should not be an escalating arms race to see who can pack the biggest warhead to blow the competition away this week knowing that next week you'll have to buy all new gear to just finish mid-field.

[MarkWesterfield]

How are they stiffling the advancement of the hobby? Don't you guys have lipo battery packs? I don't recall ROAR telling anybody not to buy Lipo batteries. I believe they said there insurance company would raise their insurance a lot higher and they would have to increase membership fees to cover the cost. They didn't believe that would be in ROAR's best interest and decided to not to make Lipo's legal this year. Would you have paid more than $30 a year for a ROAR membership?

[kufman]

Unfortunately companies do gear their production towards race legal items. Look how long it has taken to get a car brushless system on the market from a car company. Boats and Planes have been using them for almost a decade. By banning certain technologies, the market will swing away from producing these items and slow the advancement of those technologies. When racing becomes fun again, people will come back!

[MarkWesterfield]

"Give the manufactures some guidance on what will be allowed to race, and the consumers will be supportive of those race classes."

If you've read this thread from the beginning, the consumers are not supportive of the race classes. The classes and the rules are defined, they want the flavor of the month type of racing. This months flavor is Lipo. Next months flavor might be hydrogen fuel cell, who knows.

[MarkWesterfield]

Boats and planes don't use brakes, reverse, or even much of mid-throttle. I doubt you would need too many drive profiles either.

When people become fun again, racing will come back. Touche :D

Would you have paid more than $30 a year for a ROAR membership?

[Ed237]

The more I read this thread, the more I am against Lipos in the immediate future.

Another class for lipo?
There are too many classes already (stock/19t/mod buggy/truck/eighteenth scale) and creating a new class for batteries won't help. The technology is changing so fast that we have to consider that an even better option than lipo is probably already being developed.

Common Sense:
ROAR can't consider legalizing lipo batteries until brushless motor systems have been homologized for racing in all classes. Thats because lipo batteries are tied to the advancement of brushless motors. There is no point to lipo cells unless they're combined with brushless motors. ROAR has just started to allow brushless in Mod events. The next step is brushless stock and 19t.

And then after that, maybe lipos, or whatever.

[kufman]

ROAR can't consider legalizing lipo batteries until brushless motor systems have been homologized for racing in all classes. Thats because lipo batteries are tied to the advancement of brushless motors. There is no point to lipo cells unless they're combined with brushless motors. ROAR has just started to allow brushless in Mod events. The next step is brushless stock and 19t. '

Makes no sense to me. You are going to tell me that a battery that weighs half as much will not help the performance of brushed motors?!?! Uh huh :confused:

[rocknbil]

Just to address a couple old comments in this thread:

....Overcharging with Lithium based tech isn't quite as simple though, as my understanding is that the only indication of overcharge will be some swelling of the pack, by which point the internal cell chemistry has destabilized and the pack is rendered unsafe to use.

If you is a GOOD charger, one that reads and displays each cell's voltage while charging, or meter your packs immediately after a charge, you can easily see if any cell has approached or crossed the 4.2 VPC maximum. Metering your packs is a must for cell life and safety, it should BE SOP. Speaking of which,

I ... ALL lipo sanctioned chargers have a balancing function, and ALL lipo packs must use the same balancing plug setup......

In the face of fair competition, this is never going to happen. Most of the posters upset in this thread are already pointing to ROAR as selectively supporting certain companies - can you imagine what would happen if they set a standard by one manufacturer, or even a set of them?

[Ed237]

It makes even less sense to switch to lipos just to run a 8000mah battery for 5 minutes!

The other factor that everyone here is conveniently overlooking is that IFMAR and ROAR and other sanctioning bodies are already looking at ways to slow the cars down. We might be down to 5 cells soon! So this is the wrong time to be a purveyor of 7.4 volt RC battery technology.

All I'm hearing here is "I want lipos or else . . ."

Or else what? Quit racing? Just bash? Only go to tracks that allow it? I have read many times that racers are an almost igsignificant segment of RC.

Simple logic tells me that the pro lipo crowd shouldnt be pounding on ROAR for their decisions.

Some major RC car manufacturer needs to take the risk first and the company you really need to start petitioning is Traxxas. Seriously. With their marketing and basher orientated mega-sales, they could start including lipos and brushless with their EMaxxs, Rustlers, and Stampedes and turn the industry upside down. That would probably force ROAR to legalize them.

[kufman]

Who wants to run for 5 minutes?? There are lipos in the area of 3200 to 4000 mAh if needed

[Ed237]

But why would we? We already have 4400 cells.

I can already run a 10+ minute main with my GTB and 3800s. But I wouldnt recommend doing it with a brushed motor.

Why exactly do we need lipos again?

[tallyrc]

yeaaaa, a pissing party

[ElectricThunder]

Why exactly do we need lipos again?
They're lighter, hold higher voltage under load (more voltage going to motor despite the voltage drop under load, meaning motors will spin a bit faster), and can have much larger capacities (which also means higher current draw is possible).

[ElectricThunder]

Unfortunately companies do gear their production towards race legal items. Look how long it has taken to get a car brushless system on the market from a car company. Boats and Planes have been using them for almost a decade. By banning certain technologies, the market will swing away from producing these items and slow the advancement of those technologies. When racing becomes fun again, people will come back!
I agree with you. This would be the only reason I think ROAR is being stupid in terms of banning lipos. Other than that, like I said...I couldn't give a flying... :eek:

[kufman]

Why exactly do we need lipos again?

My main reason for wanting them is higher voltage (3s or 4s lipo). ROAR tends to go the other way, like down to 4-cell touring (although it hasn't happened yet, it may just like the Japanese ROAR did). Higher voltage, less current, smaller wires, smaller controllers, less heat.

[InspGadgt]

But they won't rule on 1/18 scale classes so that cell count, size, mass, motors will be the rules so that manufactures will make class ready to race micro r/c vehicles. The micro scene, along with the monster truck scene is all mess with different standards. 1/18 has 4,5,6,7 cell NiMH and 2S, 3S lipos with differing motor sizes and motor systems. The Monster truck scene has an ungodly amount of tire sizes available, and scale choices along with engine choices. What scale should I race? 1/10 with 1/8 tires? 1/7th?, 1/8 with buggy tires? 6-wheels? Yes I have seen a 6-wheel truck on the track.

How can someone call someone out for cheating if the rules are not defined?
How can the consumers adjust to the changing market if the rules are absent?
The consumers deserve better treatment or the hobby will just degrade. Give the manufactures some guidance on what will be allowed to race, and the consumers will be supportive of those race classes. If not there will just be the flavor-of-the-week mentality that you will have to have this car, with this motor, with this battery this week to be competitive this week. This should not be an escalating arms race to see who can pack the biggest warhead to blow the competition away this week knowing that next week you'll have to buy all new gear to just finish mid-field.


In order to answer this we need to take a look at how historically classes have been created and how ROAR decides to create them, and what I see is a fundamental change in the manufacturers thinking.

In order for ROAR to make rules for a class there has to be a demand for it. That means manufacturers have to be producing these vehicles first, then as the class becomes popular enough ROAR will make a rules set for it. It is useless to make class rules before any manufacturer has even started making the cars and just as useless to make rules for a class that only a few people want to race. In the past this wasn’t a problem because manufacturers would usually follow each other so that bodies and tires would be compatible across any chassis manufacturers. For example the touring car class, Tamiya made these cars popular for the masses and other manufacturers followed suit by making their cars the same width and length and the same sized tires. Then as it became more popular ROAR was able to make a rule set for it. And classes prior to that were the same in that manufacturers were already making vehicles to the same specs before ROAR came up with a rule set. In some cases one class evolved from another one like in the case of stadium trucks which first started out as buggies with truck wheels/tires and a truck body thrown on them. As such there was already some uniformity inherent in the class and evolved into the class we have today by manufacturers pushing the envelope of the rules and gradual rules changes to accommodate these changes.

Flash forward a bit now to the RTR explosion. Manufacturers start to realize that the bulk of sales goes not to the racer but to the basher and as such are not confined by the rules set forth already. The TMaxx gets released, completely out of spec for any racing class, and is an instant blockbuster. Other manufacturers now realizing that an out of spec vehicle will sell so well now come out with their own vehicles but try to “one up” everyone else by offering bigger tires, more power, or bigger overall. Then manufacturers like AE and Losi want to capture some of this craze and release RTRs of their race kits but to please the need for more power they release them with bigger engines that are not race legal. This fundamental change in the manufacturers thinking and marketing is what is causing ROAR to be in such a quandary.

While this is great for the basher and has driven some phenomenal growth it is extremely difficult on the sanctioning bodies and will continue to be so as long as this trend goes on. But anytime you get 2 or more RCers together they are going to compete at some level…who’s the fastest, who jumps the highest, and so on. Eventually some of them will want to race competitively which always leads to the question “What do you mean I can’t race my vehicle? Why is there no class for it?”.

Change and innovation is great for the hobby in general. But change for the sport has to happen at a slower pace to ensure not only safety but fairness for all. A good example from my own past is the F1 class where I was the race director and rules maker locally. The class was initially started by F1 enthusiasts who wanted to have a fair, scale race that still allowed for innovation and followed as closely to the real F1 class as possible. It was decided then to restrict motors and batteries to Sport Tuned motors and generic sport pack batteries of a specific Mah rating. Changes under the body were fairly open so long as the dimensions of the car didn’t change. To keep true to real F1 racing we had to devise a way to make the cars come in for pit stops. What was settled on was to make the race long enough that people would have to come in and change batteries. Now the quandary comes in with the changes in battery technology…at what point to we allow a new Mah rating? If we allow it too soon then the class becomes a battery war and only those who can afford to buy new batteries every season stand a chance. If we wait too long then getting replacements for old worn out battery packs becomes difficult. Then the Mah ratings start to sky rocket to the point where someone can run a full 30 minute race on 1 battery giving them the advantage by saving them the pit time and again it becomes a battery war.

A couple of closing thoughts…Until you have made a comprehensive rule set for a racing class and had to deal with changes in technology and the headaches they cause you can never truly understand how difficult of a challenge it can be…And safety at a basher level is completely up to the basher and liability lies completely with him or her. Safety at a race level is much more complex and is the responsibility of the race organizer and sanctioning body. As such rules must be more complex and careful to limit the liability that one person or organization has to assume for 10, 20, or even 300 racers.

[LD3Furious]

[QUOTE=Craps][B][SIZE=3]Forgot to welcome the newbie to RC Zones Forums since you joined 11-13-2006 almost 8 days ago with only 9 post that are all in this thread! :roll2: :roll2: :roll2:


Up to this post, I have read this entire thread. I have NOT!!! read beyond it yet, however, so I have no idea where it is going...but I feel a need to make a comment on that quote above. I just want to say, while I may not fully agree with Mark, I race at the LHS where he is at and can vouch for what he says.

[RControl Freak]

Hey, enough people complain, and they'll make it legal!!

[Craps]

We use 8000 mah li-pos to run 20 minute non-stop no pit man required mains. This has appealed to guys who like electric, but want more runtime and not going to a gas class. Li-pos have kept electric alive in my area that has went to mostly gas classes. :teacher:

[InspGadgt]

You missed my point...we could have easily ran 35+ minutes on 3800Mah packs. One of the tenants of the class was that there would be pit stops to make it more scale to real F1 racing so that pit strategy would play an important role in the outcome of the race. With today's batteries we can run the same race with no pit stops so you lose some of the spirit of the class. How to address this difficulty and not lose the spirit was not easy. Unfortunately after over 13years as a class it has died completely now.

[Nomadio_Sales]

MarkWesterfield
Planes use do use brakes, hotliners and electric sailplanes need them. :)
Planes have higher amp burst discharge rates which is harder on lipo cells then a constant midrange draw and some bursts of max draw you see in cars.
Planes do not have the cooling as cars do the cells are in an enclosed battery tray
Most electric cars raced do not use reverse ;)

We need lipo packs as much as we needed to move to from Nicad to Nimh the laws concerning battery cell chem / disposal is making it hard world wide for cell producers.
Nimh for now are OK in Europe.

[trailranger]

I am fine with the ban,

Just I am upset with how niche classes become track-killers. Someone spots a cool new RTR and buys it. Then 2 other guys buy the same kit and start racing their own classes and do costly upgrades along the way. Soon half the track owns the RTR and is racing them hard for 3~6 months then wham it’s all dead. The old stable classes are not being raced, and the out-of-towners who driver over an hour to show up feel racing with one other car in the old class is not worth it. Then a newer RTR comes out and a few people say "Yeah, I'll race that!" And the same thing happens to that once new niche class, it losses racers to the newer class. Next thing you have several classes with only two to four racers showing up. Then that leads to nothing as between four people racing just isn’t fun when two get sick or have weddings to go to.

I just want to point that between the greed of manufactures to make changes in the market to generate sales and the inconsistency of ruling organizations to deal with changes the hobby is very fast approaching a burn-out from consumers not willing to adapt to the latest craze. This applies to all aspects of the hobby from RTR, kits, parts and technologies.

For ROAR to say that they will ban LiPo’s is their decision. In the long-run that imposed ban will hurt only their governing body. In the short run, it keeps everyone’s wallet a little fuller if they chose race at ROAR events or at tracks that follow ROAR rules.
I personally don’t want to spend more money on an ESC that is LiPo ready, or a new chassis, new chargers or new batteries. I understand that changes will happen but at the pace the manufactures are trying to get us to guy is ridiculous. I would think highly of ROAR if they started giving manufactures ROAR approval stamps on their packages for kits, RTR, motors, batteries, ect. Then there will be no question when I walk into a hobby shop if I can possible take those products to the track and race with them.

Remember this is not an ARMS RACE, but a Hobby. Just take it easy and enjoy the race classes that we love and be faithful to those race classes, race tracks and LHS.
:)

[Craps]

InspGadgt
My post was not directed at nor even meant to be related to your post. We have alot of electric racers who want to race in 20+ minute non-stop mains without a pit man and not worring about flame outs. Once they go li-po, they never want to go back to nickel batteries and wished they would have went li-po sooner due to less maintence and fewer batteries to own with great runtimes.

[RControl Freak]

Still, by the way things are going, whether ROAR likes it or not, Lithium Polymer batteries are the thing of the future!

[Windsorguy99]

A recurring theme in this thread is ROAR BANNING Li-Po...

Li-Pos were simply not approved for 2007. They even went so far as to state that the technology is being investigated for future implementations.

As they stand currently, the LiPo cells do not meet the battery rules as they are defined...this is due to the inherantly different technology behind their production. There really was no way that they COULD be approved under the existing rule set.

If they give an exception to allow LiPo, how do they regulate which packs can or cannot be used? With the number or differnet Lithium based cell technologies, pack shapes, capacities, voltages, etc....how could they possibly establish what is or is not legal?

And yes..I did see the post about RCPro Series...some indications point out that the technology posted about in this very forum from A123 seems like it could be the technology to bridge the gap, but it is a lower voltage technology that uses a converter box to bring it to 7.2V....a box that makes the use of these cells illegal by RCPro rules...soo.....it's a similar situation.

There are Lithium based technologies that are more stable than others. Rules and a testing/sumbission process need to be put in place to identify which suppliers and packs would MEET the set of standards (that still needs to be established) and rule out the others....

I believe that is the process that ROAR is currently investigating. Saying that they are holding the technology back by not blindly accepting all of these packs is ridiculous.

[Windsorguy99]

Still, by the way things are going, whether ROAR likes it or not, Lithium Polymer batteries are the thing of the future!

I haven't seen any statements from ROAR (implied or otherwise) disputing that Lithium based technologies are the future...

[The_Mini_Me]

Rocknbill,

Me: "I ... ALL lipo sanctioned chargers have a balancing function, and ALL lipo packs must use the same balancing plug setup......"


In the face of fair competition, this is never going to happen. Most of the posters upset in this thread are already pointing to ROAR as selectively supporting certain companies - can you imagine what would happen if they set a standard by one manufacturer, or even a set of them?


Thats my point though. Its been done with the cell type and motors. That arguement doesn't hold up because thats what a rule set always does to someone. And no offense, but its just the balancer plug. Its not like making each company have to use the same internal battery structure. I think this point would be the least complaint to lipo manufacturers.

I will restate, when ROAR does decide on making these rules and having to do with safety. Yes, the balancer plug issue must be addressed and decisive across all manufacturers. In the long run its better for all as the ability to not have to worry about specific balancers to specific systems. So a end user can switch from one company to another without being held back because of having to purchase a new balance setup.

[RControl Freak]

I haven't seen any statements from ROAR (implied or otherwise) disputing that Lithium based technologies are the future...

I'm not talking about statements from ROAR, but rather that eventually, if enough people start to use LiPo's, then ROAR will have to accept. Majority Rule!

[dj_ski69]

Has anyone here realized including ROAR(who is not here) that When Li-Po and NIMH packs are fully charged they both have about equal volatges....
does 8.4V ring a bell to anyone.....Infact the average discharge voltage of the best NIMH IB4200's and a Max amps 4200mah Li-Po are about the same....I tested this myself with my own batteries....
Also my 6000mah and 8000mah Li-po packs are almost but a bit better in average discharge voltage than the IB4200SHV cells....

I find it insulting that ROAR gives such lame excuses for a very watched and listened too debate over Li-po's....
Where is ROAR's technical data to prove this apparent unfair advantage to be had concerning Li-po's....Clearly ROAR is alluding to Li'Po's being an unfair advantage over NIMH.....
has anyone here ever known what does it matter about dimensions of a battery pack.....If it fits...Wear it.....!!!!

Also someone earlier in this thread blamed it on the manufactures for not conforming Li-po batteries to ROAR rules....
The only thing I have to say to that is OPEN YOUR EYES....
In terms of buisness the manufacturers could give a crap about ROAR and thier short bus eligable rules....
Do you even realize beyond R/C how many devices are using Lithium Ion and Polymer batteries for usage....
3.7 volts a cell has long been used before R/C.....
There is absolutely no blame that can be thrown to the manufacturers at all for ROAR's shortcomings and obvious disregard to what is good for the Hobbiest and what is good for buisness.....


SkI

[MarkWesterfield]

ROAR's excuse is not really that lame. ROAR's insurance company apparently told them that it would be possible to lose their insurance for Lipo injury/damage claims. Imagine all the club owned tracks that could sue them from being forced to shut down because the club owned tracks require that insurance to lease/rent their property.

I think a lot of people have a jaded view of what rules are. It would seem a lot of people think the rules are there to ensure that they can use the latest or best available technology, which is not the case. The rules were designed so that a racer could compete in different areas of the world fairly and could compete with similar equipment. It would seem that today's hobbyists are not as interested in racing in fair competition and are more interested in just having the latest new toy. Look at the touring car market, companies come out with slightly updated kits every six months or so. Everybody complains about it, but they still buy them, no matter what the expense. If ROAR made Lipo legal today, the same guys would be blaming ROAR for something else tomorrow.

RC Pro series has made Lipo legal in modified classes (up to 4300mah). So all the ROAR haters should go race in his organization. Carlton has been pretty good with modifying the rules to conform to the internet complainers in a timely fashion.

[RControl Freak]

ROAR's excuse is not really that lame. ROAR's insurance company apparently told them that it would be possible to lose their insurance for Lipo injury/damage claims. Imagine all the club owned tracks that could sue them from being forced to shut down because the club owned tracks require that insurance to lease/rent their property.

I think a lot of people have a jaded view of what rules are. It would seem a lot of people think the rules are there to ensure that they can use the latest or best available technology, which is not the case. The rules were designed so that a racer could compete in different areas of the world fairly and could compete with similar equipment. It would seem that today's hobbyists are not as interested in racing in fair competition and are more interested in just having the latest new toy. Look at the touring car market, companies come out with slightly updated kits every six months or so. Everybody complains about it, but they still buy them, no matter what the expense. If ROAR made Lipo legal today, the same guys would be blaming ROAR for something else tomorrow.

RC Pro series has made Lipo legal in modified classes (up to 4300mah). So all the ROAR haters should go race in his organization. Carlton has been pretty good with modifying the rules to conform to the internet complainers in a timely fashion.

yeah, he is right, the last thing you need is one of those things exploding, however unlikely it may be, and injuring someone! ROAR is arguing a two way streak: both for our and their welfare.

[Nomadio_Sales]

ROAR's insurance company apparently told them that it would be possible to lose their insurance for Lipo injury/damage claims

The insurance company did not and does not know about this or lipo cells in use or not in use Call them if you have ROAR they are your insurance company as well call and ask. Smoke Screen.

DAWN please to post the letter from the insurance company dues paying members want to see it.

[MarkWesterfield]

Like I said, there is always Pro Series...

[Nomadio_Sales]

Yes but ROAR is our block for IFMAR unless ROAR lets RC PRO represent the block as well to IFMAR we have to push ROAR to look forward.

I am not anti ROAR I am anti ROAR holding back growth of ROAR, R/C technology and racing.

[The_Mini_Me]

Nomadio_Sales does have a point, as a (I assume?) non-profit organization, ROAR should be completely transparent to its members. A top down method is outdated these days.

This actually works into the early point about the lack of voting of ROAR members for their president.

"lot of racers claiming to be only members because their track requires it for insurance reasons and not because they wish to race in their sanctioned events."

http://www.redrc.net/

Again, this squarely is pointing to the problem of trying to run this organization as a top down idea. We live in the 21st century where better communication is possible.

[MarkWesterfield]

but Lipo's are not legal for IFMAR either.

http://www.ifmar.org/pdf/IFMAR_CELLS2006.pdf

http://www.ifmar.org/pdf/IFMAR_battery_tech_060530.pdf

How is ROAR holding back the growth of R/C? ROAR keeps its rules inline with the other sanctioning bodies, I'm not positive, but I don't think any of the other sanctioning bodies allow Lipo.

[MarkWesterfield]

That would be a great situation, Lipo legal for ROAR racing, then if ROAR sends you to the IFMAR worlds, then you have to go buy NIMH to race at the worlds. Oh wait, you have no intention of doing that, IFMAR is the next organization on your list to beat up on because you bought illegal batteries to begin with. What was wrong with following the rules in the first place?

[The_Mini_Me]

Im not sure if your talking to us in general or my response in particular. All I am saying if indeed the insurance issue is the problem. It should be fully disclosed to the members. Are the meeting notes/reports available online or posted for members review? I am part of the International Game Developers Association, and even they have such available to and from its members.

This is something you cannot deny Mark as a point that allows more frustration from members as it comes to be seen as being >told< these conclusions versus being part off or at least getting to see the conversation (which will help them choose who they re-elect or not) Without membership, ROAR is nothing. They aren't doing themselves any favors with people reading into reasons and conspiracies by keeping these decisions behind closed doors.

This isn't a nation. This is a non-profit. So again, there is no reason they cannot be more forthcoming and transparent with how it is run.

I know, not exactly on topic, but it fits right into the core of the reason members here are so frustrated with these decisions.

[Craps]

What is real funny is the top off road track in North America, The Farm2 in Charlotte, NC that got awarded the 2008 IFMAR World Championship for 1/8th scale and the 2007 ROAR Gas Truck Nationals will allow the use of li-pos in all of it's races in 2007 and 2008 except for those 2 races and I will even bet there was li-pos used at 2006 ROAR 1/8th scale Nationals they had there this year. :eek:

Again I applaud Carlton Epes with the Pro Series for listening to the racers and being a visionary to move RC racing into the future instead of listening to the greed of a few manufacturers who have not kept up with technology and making decisions based on selling out warehouses full of out of date technology. Sad, but true! :teacher:

[MattHiggins]

Does a dead horse take up as much band width as a live horse?

[Craps]

Does a dead horse take up as much band width as a live horse?
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i130/ellefun2/th_deadhorse.gifhttp://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i211/ijiwaru_sensei/th_beating-a-dead-horse.gifhttp://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k10/DocZaius/th_BeatDeadHorse.gif http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h207/Chazzom/th_Beatadeadhorse.gif http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k118/cmarkel/th_beatingdeadhorse.gif

[InspGadgt]

To quote god from Bruce Allmighty..."Since when do people know what they really need?" if it wasn't top down management then pretty much anything would get approved and racing would be a mess. There'd be too many classes with too few people in them and the gap between the average racer and the racer with money would be even larger. I remember one time in F1 when the slower racers all wanted to change the motor rule to allow any motor so they could run modifieds to keep up with the faster racers...I told them if we did that the faster racers would get modifieds too and still be faster. That would have killed the class in a year because of motor maintenance and the cost of broken parts. As it was the class lasted around 14 years before it died out.

[MarkWesterfield]

Craps,

Lipos were and still are legal as receiver packs, transmitter packs, and starter box batteries.

For 2007 Lithium Polymer batteries are not permitted to compete with NiCad or NiMh batteries in electric class racing because the voltages are not equivalent nor do the pack dimensions match those currently observed by ROAR and IFMAR. This rule does not currently affect receiver packs at this time, however ROAR is concerned with the overall safety of these cells when located near or around flammable/combustible materials. ROAR will investigate this further.

[Craps]

Craps,

Lipos were and still are legal as receiver packs, transmitter packs, and starter box batteries.

For 2007 Lithium Polymer batteries are not permitted to compete with NiCad or NiMh batteries in electric class racing because the voltages are not equivalent nor do the pack dimensions match those currently observed by ROAR and IFMAR. This rule does not currently affect receiver packs at this time, however ROAR is concerned with the overall safety of these cells when located near or around flammable/combustible materials. ROAR will investigate this further.

And I will still race my electric li-po powered truck at the top off road track in North America in 2007.

Amazing how ROAR's insurance will not let li-pos run in electric, but will let them run in gas powered RCs where alot of that group of racers has less knowledge about battery safety and care than the electric racers do. Most of the nickel battery packs I have seen explode were R/X packs from gas racers who do not know how to charge or take care of batteries.

[MarkWesterfield]

yes, both 'dead horse' and 'live horse' both have 9 characters each and take the same bandwith.

receiver packs have less stored energy to release.

[Craps]

receiver packs have less stored energy to release.

That's even funnier since it is the small packs that are the problem in both nickel and li-po. We don't have a problem with the larger packs we use. :teacher:

[dj_ski69]

Craps,

For 2007 Lithium Polymer batteries are not permitted to compete with NiCad or NiMh batteries in electric class racing because the voltages are not equivalent nor do the pack dimensions match those currently observed by ROAR and IFMAR. This rule does not currently affect receiver packs at this time, however ROAR is concerned with the overall safety of these cells when located near or around flammable/combustible materials. ROAR will investigate this further.

1) ROARS' statement lists voltage concerns before safety....
And I have already dissolved that excuse in my previous post....If anyone would care to argue that fact then feel free... But the standing voltage of a 2S Li-Po Pack upon completion of charge is 8.4v....
The standing voltage of a 6 cell NI-MH Pack upon completion of charge is 8.4v

2) If safety is such a concern then why is ROAR not pushing safety as the main reason for cause over voltage(which is irrelavent....)
It does not make sense.... None of this makes sense because there is no viable reason not too...
Concerning safety, both types of batteries are equally dangerous when pushed to the point of explosion... Acid spray and Fire is nothing to take lightly....and thats from NIMH and Li-PO....heck thats from any battery...

I still believe that ROARS decision errs on the side of buisness and certain manufacturers...

I consider myself very lucky that I can race my TC4 here in Japan using my Li-Po's.... Granted I'm limited to one Club and thier racing schedule but its better than nothing...
Even a mention of brushless/Li-Po powered car to the other club race venues and I get severe frowns and prompt NO'S.....
This I don't understand....Like its EVIL to use the current technology....instead of wasting money on a thing of the past (NIMH/Brushed motors)


SkI

[MarkWesterfield]

I'm tired of this debate. Its obviously endless. And you guys are more interested in using the latest technology rather then just complying to the existing rules of competition. ROAR would be interesting if guys like you guys had actually cared enough to volunteer.

[Ed237]

So if lipos don't have higher voltage or perform better, why do you want me to switch to them?

It seems like some of you think that legalizing lipo batteries is a way to take some sort of shot at the RC industry. Like you have a lot of buit up resentment. I don't get that. Is this still about improving the hobby or is it some kind of payback because you hung a brush during the A Main?

I've got news for you; Trinity will make just as much if not more money when we switch to lipos. The smaller manufactuers who took all the risks will sell out. Can you just let go that somebody makes money when you race?

Lastly, there is no conspiracy. Anybody who works for an insurance company can tell you that they do actually have experts and actuarys who analize risk and they FORCE businesses change the way they do things and not always for the better.

[Nomadio_Sales]

Mark you have no idea how much I have put into the local racing community and ROAR. At one time a very high percentage of all ROAR memberships came from my track. I would love to see ROAR pull it s head out.

Sure insurance companies do look at risks but in this case they did not look ROAR just used them as a smoke screen and that is what is wrong too many back room closed door deals in ROAR.

ROAR can't even put out properly taken meeting notes. Had they put out they decided not to change the battery rules for 2007 all the forums would not be going off on this topic. But ROAR put out a half ass set of meeting notes that had a ban on Lipo’s included and the ROAR membership went nuts. Those racers not in ROAR laughed at ROAR once more decreasing the chance they will get involved in ROAR.

ED it is about RUN time. I am sure many people would love to see electric cars in 30 minute mains no pit stops. You can do it with Lipo technology.

[Craps]

These hard core old school electric guys just don't get it and I bet they don't care that electric classes have been shrinking and gas classes growing.......it's all about the run time.

ROAR missed a golden oppurtunity to change that trend by stepping up with longer mains by allowing proven new technology to race in 20 to 30 minute non-stop mains that will appeal alot better to the masses in RC racing.

[RControl Freak]

The new Apple laptops have LiPo batteries in them

[InspGadgt]

Nitro classes are not growing because of the run time. They are growing because they don't have to buy the battery or motor of the week to be competitive. They are growing because charging techniques are vastly more simple in nitro cars. NiMh batteries now have enough run time to run more then one qualifier on but do the higher end racers do that? No...they still have a pack for every run and recharge inbetween to keep the voltage at it's peak.

You can have log run time races with electric using NiMh or even NiCad under the right circumstances...yet those are not growing. An F103 with a sport tuned motor is still quite quick and will easily run a 30min race on one battery.

Yes the new Apple laptops have LiPo batteries in them. But if you look back to one of Bill's posts you'll see that is no real comparison to running LiPo in RC as these batteries in consumer products are used under much more controlled circumstances and not charged and discharged as abusively as we do in RC.

[RControl Freak]

I was just pointing that lipos are becoming more and more popular

[Craps]

You can have log run time races with electric using NiMh or even NiCad under the right circumstances...yet those are not growing.

Maybe they are not growing in the RC meca of........Hawaii :roll2: :roll2: :roll2: where it says you are from, but here on the main land USA in the area I live in Li-pos are taking over the electric off road RC world along with longer electric races.

[MattHiggins]

While I would love it, I have yet to see any longer races for electric in the north east. We can run 10 minutes with 4200 mAh NiMH cells and we don't. If LiPo are taking over the electric off-road world, I have yet to see it. I hope it does someday, but I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.

[ElectricThunder]

The track Craps races at runs 20 minute electric mains or something crazy like that. Whether or not that kinda stuff is taking over the electric scene...I dunno, but I think there's at least one other person on this board who races with him in those mains. Crazy stuff I tell ya!

[InspGadgt]

Maybe they are not growing in the RC meca of........Hawaii :roll2: :roll2: :roll2: where it says you are from, but here on the main land USA in the area I live in Li-pos are taking over the electric off road RC world along with longer electric races.

If you read my statment it says that longer racing with NiMh isn't growing not that LiPo isn't growing. The point is longer run times are easily possible with NiMh yet very few races choose to take advantage of that, so run time is not the issue. Just because LiPo is growing in your area doesn't mean that it is growing enough nation wide for ROAR to do anything with yet.

[InspGadgt]

The track Craps races at runs 20 minute electric mains or something crazy like that. Whether or not that kinda stuff is taking over the electric scene...I dunno, but I think there's at least one other person on this board who races with him in those mains. Crazy stuff I tell ya!

LOL you think 20 is crazy...our F1 class was 45mins!

[InspGadgt]

Nomadio_Sales does have a point, as a (I assume?) non-profit organization, ROAR should be completely transparent to its members. A top down method is outdated these days.

This actually works into the early point about the lack of voting of ROAR members for their president.

"lot of racers claiming to be only members because their track requires it for insurance reasons and not because they wish to race in their sanctioned events."

http://www.redrc.net/

Again, this squarely is pointing to the problem of trying to run this organization as a top down idea. We live in the 21st century where better communication is possible.

However in the case of LiPos I would NOT want it left up to the ROAR members to vote on. Most people voting would have no clue as to what they were voting for or against. Few if any are chemical engineers who would fully understand every aspect of these cells. ROAR at least has contacts within the manufacturers and can tap that knowledge when making decisions such as this.

[Craps]

The Electric Pro Series last winter had all Stock classes at 7 minute mains, Mod classes at 6 minutes and the class I ran, Brushless Truck was at 10 minute mains using ni-mh batteries. Li-pos were not legal in the Pro Series then, but we practiced alot with our li-pos saving those nickel batteries for the quals and the main to be legal according to the Pro Series rules at that time. Carlton Epes with the Pro Series got to see our trucks using li-pos in practice along with inspecting them during that time to see that they were safe. In fact several of the local racers at the Daytona track in Florida got to see them too and they now have li-pos down there now. The lady that was over the track had heard so much negative gossip about li-pos that she was terrified about them being at the track until we showed them there was nothing wrong with them. Maybe one of the posters here that race there will post about it?

If the Pro Series would have allowed li-pos last winter, the brushless truck class would have been the largest class in the East divison at 2 of the races out numbering Stock Truck! I know other parts of the US are behind the times in RC technology, but it will be just a matter of time before they catch on too! The Pro Series allowing li-pos and longer mains along with the East Coast series involving the top off road track in North America, The Farm2 in Charlotte, NC allowing the only Electric class to race at it is the Electric Pro Truck class with li-pos and 20 minute mains.

Maybe the following year ROAR will allow li-pos.

[MattHiggins]

Believe me, I would love longer mains. I often complain that we don't run longer when my race setup can go 10 minutes easy--that's NiMH and brushed. I travel all over the place and just don't hear about long mains and LiPos taking over. Now, we all know people are running different progrmas all over the place, but for the most part the vast majority of people run 5-minute mains. At my local track, you can run whatever kind of motor and battery you want, but the majority still run brushed motors and NiMH cells. No mass take over to be scene. That's just one example, but it's the most common circumstance that I see.

I just see the racing scene being very slow to change. It always has been and probably always will be--to a fault. In my opinion, we don't use the high capacity NiMH cells to their full potential; why would you expect LiPo cells to be any different?

Right now, I think LiPo cells offer the most for bashers. Eventually, they will take over racing, and to dare to get back on point, I very much doubt ROAR's recent decision will stop LiPo advancement in general and in our hobby. I doubt the decision will even slow it down.

[InspGadgt]

We all know better battery technology will take over and I'm all for that. The question is when. But beyond that at what point do we start modifying the rules to take in account things like the lighter weight of these cells? Once the industry is converted then all the minimum weights in all electric classes can be lowered...but at what point do we do this? Who is going to tell the person still running nickel based batteries that they can no longer be competitive because their car will be significantly more heavy then anything else out there?

[Craps]

Matt,
Go see what won your own contest WFRCC and he crashed both cars using li-pos with one over 161 mph and the other at 134 mph with no big explosion. I would say Nic Case used the same li-pos from the 134 mph run/crash in the car he crashed at 161 mph. Even my big gas powered car had an 8000 mah reciever pack in it.

You guys at RCCA should be doing more stories about li-pos in racing. I think your readers want to hear more about them and with articles about them done in a true test like fashion, you will even see more people using them. I hope you guys are not holding back articles about li-pos due to certain advertizers don't sell them yet?

Yes I have read the article on Orion's li-po in a plastic case that I don't think the case is necessary. Nic Case in the WFRCC used regular uncased li-pos in his cars that were crashed at very high speeds that were even reused. Talk about extreme conditions.

http://image.rcuniverse.com/gallery/photos/113809/lg-61216.jpg

Picture of Nic Case's car that went 134 mph and was crashed. Please notice how the 8 cell li-pos are stacked up and just taped together. Again here is the most extreme test for them with no fire or explosion and they were even reused.

[MarkWesterfield]

they should leave the minimum weight were it is, that way the car manufacturers can beef up the cars to last 20-30 minute races. There wouldn't be too many cars left on the track after races that long at the tracks around where I live :eek:

[Craps]

they should leave the minimum weight were it is, that way the car manufacturers can beef up the cars to last 20-30 minute races. There wouldn't be too many cars left on the track after races that long at the tracks around where I live :eek:

Mark does your track come as big and as rough as this one?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/spookypoop/IMG_6129.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/spookypoop/IMG_6130.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/spookypoop/IMG_6132.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/spookypoop/IMG_6135.jpg
The top off road track in North America, The Farm 2 in Charlotte, NC that was home to the 2006 ROAR 1/8th scale Nationals and will be the home of the 2007 ROAR Gas Truck Nationals along with the home of the 2008 IFMAR 1/8th Scale World Championship is allowing the Electric li-po powered Pro Truck class with 20 minute mains as the only Electric class to race at that very prestigious track next year.

Drake, Tebo, Mayfield, Amezcus, etc. raced there several times this year and you would see why it is the top off road track in the USA. It is a first class facility.

Here is link to the track's website that has pictures and more information: http://www.thefarm2.com/

I would like to invite any of you li-po racers to come to Charlotte, NC and race on this great track next year.

The pictures of the track that was the large layout for the 2006 ROAR 1/8th scale Nationals last summer. It has been made smaller by taking out the back straight a way and some of the jumps changed a little for the fall races. Starting 15 1/8th scales on this track is no problem.

[RControl Freak]

I very much doubt ROAR's recent decision will stop LiPo advancement in general and in our hobby. I doubt the decision will even slow it down.

Yeah, if someone disagrees with this, than they just don't race in ROAR events, or rather save the LiPo's for events where they are legal! (We still have 5 minute mains, since our electric classes are composed mostly of beginners, and they (or their parents) often don't want to dish out another 50 to 70 bucks for a good LiPo pack, NiCd's and NiMH's mostly rule, though occasionally a hotshot comes along with a brushless and LiPo setup, and they often still get beat! :D

[ElectricThunder]

LOL you think 20 is crazy...our F1 class was 45mins!
I'd get bored after 10 minutes...:D Especially on the track. Bashing I can handle for hours on end, but racing would just become too monotonus for me.... :eek: :p

What kind of F1's are you running? Similar to a pan car style lay out/direct drive?

[MattHiggins]

Matt,
Go see what won your own contest WFRCC and he crashed both cars using li-pos with one over 161 mph and the other at 134 mph with no big explosion. I would say Nic Case used the same li-pos from the 134 mph run/crash in the car he crashed at 161 mph. Even my big gas powered car had an 8000 mah reciever pack in it.I'm not sure I see how that's relevant. I am not anti-LiPo. My point is that ROAR's new ruling will have no real impact on the present or future of LiPo cells in this hobby. I persoanlly believe people are making too big of a deal out of this and are more concerned with having some fun Internet drama. Even as a racer, I know and admit that racing is a small part of this hobby and officially ROAR-sanctioned racing makes up an even smaller part.

You guys at RCCA should be doing more stories about li-pos in racing. I think your readers want to hear more about them and with articles about them done in a true test like fashion, you will even see more people using them.You're clearly passionate about LiPos. I think you want to hear more about LiPos, and you will.

I hope you guys are not holding back articles about li-pos due to certain advertizers don't sell them yet?
That's a bit insulting, but to answer your question--no we are not holding back articles on LiPo. I have written two LiPo-related articles myself in recent months.

[Craps]

Matt
Sorry for the jab and please accept my apology for any insult I posted.

[schenck77]

Mark does your track come as big and as rough as this one?

I race with mark and no our track is not as big as that. I believe we are the biggest in CT but not even close to the size of the farm2. The track can get that rough though.
This is a gallary from our local track.
http://www.wolcotthobby.com/pages/track_gallery.htm
other pictures here http://www.wolcotthobby.com/pages/multimedia.htm

[LD3Furious]

And those pics are after a fresh re-design. It has a tendency to get very hard and rocky in between new designs. One/Eighth buggies sometimes whimper at the site...lol...forget 1/10 electric.

[Nomadio_Sales]

Some would say KZ speedway is the top off road track in the USA.

Do not think large tracks are just for gas.

[Craps]

Some would say KZ speedway is the top off road track in the USA.

Do not think large tracks are just for gas.

Karlton
Where is that track at?

By the way the tonegawa servos are great you told me about!

[InspGadgt]

I'd get bored after 10 minutes...:D Especially on the track. Bashing I can handle for hours on end, but racing would just become too monotonus for me.... :eek: :p

What kind of F1's are you running? Similar to a pan car style lay out/direct drive?

We started back with Tamiya's F101 chassis when it first came out and more recently were running the F201s. It lasted a long time...unfortunately 2005 was the final season for that race as we didn't have enough drivers to continue. Hopefully things will pick up again and we can get started again.

[MattHiggins]

Karlton
Where is that track at?

By the way the tonegawa servos are great you told me about!
KZ is in SoCal.

[MattHiggins]

Matt
Sorry for the jab and please accept my apology for any insult I posted.It's all good. No worries, man.

[tallyrc]

kz would be awesome for 6 cell or lipo pancars!

[Nomadio_Sales]

We were to host the IFMAR electric worlds at KZ in 2003 but ROAR got pissy at me and threw me out of ROAR for life then let me back in LOL. IFMAR came to inspect for the 1:5 scale worlds and said the off road track would have been much better at KZ then the little track ROAR held it at.

[RControl Freak]

man, this SUCKS!!!! There are NO tracks in Virginia (at least where I live!), though my friend and I are making one ourselves!

[dj_ski69]

I'm tired of this debate. Its obviously endless. And you guys are more interested in using the latest technology rather then just complying to the existing rules of competition. ROAR would be interesting if guys like you guys had actually cared enough to volunteer.

ROAR makes ROAR rules...and for them to say that Li-po's don't conform to the rules is ignorant when THEY make and CHANGE the rules themselves....
And a small amount of time and effort to give good technical data on Li-Po's performanve vs NIMH would surely help people understand thier way of thinking....
I'm sorry but the kind of response ROAR gave is cheap....

SkI

[Craps]

man, this SUCKS!!!! There are NO tracks in Virginia (at least where I live!), though my friend and I are making one ourselves!

The Tiltyard near Stauton, VA will host one of the East Coast Races that will have the Li-po powered Pro Trucks in a 20 minute main as the only Electric class. I have been wanting to race there for 3 years.

[MattHiggins]

Craps, do you know what other east-coast tracks will be hosting the Pro Trucks with the 20 minute mains?

[Nomadio_Sales]

If it were an insurance issue the AMA would have banned them long ago, pit issues would be about the same but a flaming plane would be a greater risk factor.

[NiMo]

Our RC Bikers (1/5th scale) run LiPo's in the modified class, the LiPo's they use are the ones wrapped in heatshrink, now these bike get a huge amount of bashing, being backflips, highside, collision, or simple brain fade, now in the years they have been running not one LiPo cell has failed in any form (some packs are now 3 years old), these packs are placed on the underneath area in the bellypan, and only the thin lexan/plastic of the shell protects them.
Do I need to add anymore?
The packs are as safe as any battery pack, if mis-used they are a danger, and I have witnessed a NiMh explosed after being charged at 10A.

[RControl Freak]

The Tiltyard near Stauton, VA will host one of the East Coast Races that will have the Li-po powered Pro Trucks in a 20 minute main as the only Electric class. I have been wanting to race there for 3 years.

Thanks, Craps! I'll guess I'll have to check into that one, next time I'm in the area! :D

[Craps]

Craps, do you know what other east-coast tracks will be hosting the Pro Trucks with the 20 minute mains?

Everything is preliminary right now with the East Coast Series because it combined the Farm 2s East Coast Nitro Series with the Carolina's Point Series and expanded out further too. I have no dates yet.

4 races at the Farm 2 in Charlotte, NC
1 race each at the Tiltyard in VA, Rodslingers in GA, Badlands in SC and the Proving Grounds in SC for an 8 race series that will probably be the best 6 0f 8 points races to make the series next year.

[DIMM]

I had to sign up after reading this thread. Regardless of this being my first post ever here there is information I feel has not been covered. This is long I do apologize but you need my background to understand where this post is going.

I use to race at a local club from the time I was 13 to about 16.
I could no longer keep up with the battires, motor maintnance, or vehicle maintnance. The cost was becoming too great. To move on to the next level for me would have resulted in exhausting a large amount of funds (mainly in batteries, motors, and all the other associated things to keep it going). So I got out of R/C racing.

I was about to go on a trip to FT. Myers florida with my wife and was trying to find something to do while I was in florida (2 years ago maybe). At a barnes and noble I picked up a issue of rc car action. On the cover was a losi mini-t. I figured "wow now that's cool". So 3 days before I left I found a local hobby dealer (which is a pain in my area cause there are only 2 left now) and bought a mini-t. Along with a trinity monster motor and the Losi battery pack and charger. I saw a set of cvd's bought those, and also bought a fiber plate for the front (felt there was too much flex for the front shock towers). I was extatic after setting this truck up. It was quick. Run time sucked though and brought me back to the good ol days of electric racing (was not just gearing issues either). Motor maintnance sucked also which really reminded me of the good ol days. Unfortunatly I became dissapointed with the quality of the shocks and the constant leaking on the mini-t.

A quest started for something more. Later I read about the associated 18t. Scarfed one up at the other local hobby shop, while there I happened to notice the x-ray m18, and so I had to have one so I bought that also. I also bought a new reedy battery and monster motor.

My first experience with brushless and lipo setup came from that day also. I was overly impressed by one of the cars performances that I saw there that day (mambo setup). Having just spent over 400 bucks I said I would wait a while and do more research on this.

Now couple months later a company that I was very familiar with from the past had returned and relases there brushless mini setup. Had to have one. Go to the hobby shop pick up this new brushless motor/speed control, and wouldn't you know it a 3 cell thunder power battery pack, e-flite charger, and some mini deans connectors.

Put that setup in the 18t and wow it made a huge difference. My first run lasted for 30 minutes!!!!
Just recently I bought a cell balancer because I want to ensure that I take good care of my li-po setup.
The point of all this and what we need to understand is the problem is several fold. Manufacturers, hobby monopoly, poor understanding of instructions, lack of info on the technology,and the main issue money (for more reasons then I care to state).

Li-po and brushless put fun back into the hobby for me. I still get the same run time and punch from my li-po (with many runs on it). Before this I had been threw several NiMh battery packs and spent twice as much as I would have for my one li-po.

The fear is the same as it was for the record/tape war. Music companys were afraid that It would be too easy for people to steal there music. It actually gave birth to the modern indie scene and loosened the monoply the music industry has had. The same is going on with the digital music war now (same exact argument differnt technology).

People are generally not fond of new technology and do anything to stamp it out. Needless to say moores law always will pre-vale when it comes to technology. NiMh was merely the steping stone to the better technology of Li-po. NiMh and NiCad will never disappear but it will begin to exist in less. Patience. Brushless will eventually take over also (sooner then some think).

Li-po is only dangerous in the hands of people who abuse them. Read your directions, know the limitations, and do not try to do things with these packs that were not intended to be done with them. Exercise caution.

ROAR will eventualy have to accept the technology. Don't complain here write them.

Considering that li-po's have been used in so many other consumer electronics without huge failures I would say they have a huge success rate in comparison to other technologys.

Thomas Edison once said to Henry Ford: "you idiot why make a gas engine! Don't you know the future is in electric". He is correct. Technology just has to catch up to his thinking. Gas engines in larger automobiles are merely the steping stone to the all electric low hassel equivalent. The technology just has to be embraced. Science has to do it's job. And us as people have to embrace it.

[InspGadgt]

No one is saying not to embrace it...LiPo is quickly gaining popularity among those who do and do not race. Since the hobby is mostly made up of those who do not race there is no problem with research and development to be done there in this respect. However for racing there is more things to consider and ROAR has for the moment decided not to allow LiPo...They will eventually, it took them some time to allow NiMh as well but it was eventually allowed. As far as consumer electronics...go read Bill's post earlier...there have been problems and thier methods are much more controlled then RC's.

[Ed237]

When LIPOS do become legal, its going to cost me roughly $1000 to convert. I'll probably go ahead and do it once they are legalized, but I know a lot of people who wont. And it wont be because they are afraid or hate new things or love ROAR. It comes down to actually spending the money, writing the checks and paying on those credit cards.

You're all thinking those who dont opt for Lipo batteries were going to get out anyhow, and that might be true. But the reality is, that kind of commitment could be the death nail for electric RC in small markets like where I live. The last few electric enthusiasts holding out might feel like it might be the right time to move into nitro, given what the cost will be.

There will be unintended consequences to such a huge change. Even as run times and performance improve and maintenance has decreased, electric is struggling to survive. None of you have convinced me that more performance and run time will make any difference.

In the meantime, I'm in no hurry. I have a 40 minute main to compete in this weekend with my old 3800s.

[RControl Freak]

forty minutes?! Geez! :eek: :huh:

[Ed237]

Its going to take 3 of them! (Tamiya Silver Can GT2 type class)

[NiMo]

What I like about my single TO LiPo cells is that I can charge it up one evening during the week, go to the track on race day, do a few laps to feel the track, repeak the pack (6 mins), do to 5m races, repeak the pack (20m), 2 more races, repeak (20m), the the 2 final legs.
No worry of discharging of memory effect, and no worry of "now which pack did I charge".
Now that I have run a LiPo I fell I can never go back to a 6-cell.
My next venture is a Brushless, just need to decide on which one for an F103GT.
I should mention that I run 2 cars at a meeting, my main car is a Nitro TM G4S Tourer (sedan), and I am a rated F1 driver in the Nitro class, the Electric is a second car, so minimal maintenance is a must.

[nicholcgn]

When LIPOS do become legal, its going to cost me roughly $1000 to convert. I'll probably go ahead and do it once they are legalized, but I know a lot of people who wont. And it wont be because they are afraid or hate new things or love ROAR. It comes down to actually spending the money, writing the checks and paying on those credit cards.

You're all thinking those who dont opt for Lipo batteries were going to get out anyhow, and that might be true. But the reality is, that kind of commitment could be the death nail for electric RC in small markets like where I live. The last few electric enthusiasts holding out might feel like it might be the right time to move into nitro, given what the cost will be.

There will be unintended consequences to such a huge change. Even as run times and performance improve and maintenance has decreased, electric is struggling to survive. None of you have convinced me that more performance and run time will make any difference.

In the meantime, I'm in no hurry. I have a 40 minute main to compete in this weekend with my old 3800s.


Well I converted and it did not cost me $1000 to convert. You can use lipo with brushed motors also and it has no issues. To convert to lipo I only needed a single 8000 mah battery, Charger (Ice can do NIMH), balancer, and a LVC. If you have decent equipment on the NIMH side you can sell it to offset some of the cost. I switched for about the same price as 3 top level packs. From my calculations I am at a break even point in just over 1 year without selling my nimh stuff. It will only get better for me as I only need to buy batteries now.

If you add the cost of brushless into this calculation it does cost more but that is not the cost of going to lipo.

[Ed237]

I run 2 classes (Mod Truck & Mod Buggy) and brushless is the future so I need 2 of the latest brushless systems that have low voltage protection for lipos 2 x $250 = $500 and then at least 3 batteries at $125 = $375 and an equalizer $50 and an a Lipo compatible charger $125.

You have a good point about selling off my old stuff. I could probably get $200 for my old escs, motors, packs, so it would only be $850. Obviously, it would only be under $500 if I ran just one class.

But I wonder how many at my club will follow? My guess is probably less than half would stay in electric and the rest would go nitro. What's really killing electric is the proliferation of high quality nearly race ready RTR nitro vehicles. You can get a Jammin RTR for about $500.

I prefer electric, but as time goes on, it's becomming clearer that nothing is going to slow down the expansion of nitro off road. Those guys burn through $2500-5000 a season and never seem to care or complain and apparently, their vehicles never flame out or break? To top it off, all the indoor tracks close to me have added ventilation so the nitro guys can run all year.

And when was the last time anybody read an agonizing debate over ROAR decisions regarding nitro vehicles?

[JakeE]

I run 2 classes (Mod Truck & Mod Buggy) and brushless is the future so I need 2 of the latest brushless systems that have low voltage protection for lipos 2 x $250 = $500 and then at least 3 batteries at $125 = $375 and an equalizer $50 and an a Lipo compatible charger $125.

You have a good point about selling off my old stuff. I could probably get $200 for my old escs, motors, packs, so it would only be $850. Obviously, it would only be under $500 if I ran just one class.

But I wonder how many at my club will follow? My guess is probably less than half would stay in electric and the rest would go nitro. What's really killing electric is the proliferation of high quality nearly race ready RTR nitro vehicles. You can get a Jammin RTR for about $500.

I prefer electric, but as time goes on, it's becomming clearer that nothing is going to slow down the expansion of nitro off road. Those guys burn through $2500-5000 a season and never seem to care or complain and apparently, their vehicles never flame out or break? To top it off, all the indoor tracks close to me have added ventilation so the nitro guys can run all year.

And when was the last time anybody read an agonizing debate over ROAR decisions regarding nitro vehicles?

Instead of spending $500 on brushless gear, why not just buy a separate LVC device(s) for use with your existing brushed gear? That will save you at least $400. Using Lipos doesn't explicitly require the use of brushless motors, although the gains in efficiency and reduced maintenance certainly are nice.

[Ed237]

In my mind, Lipo and brushless go hand in hand. I wouldn't want to run a brushed motor for 10-20 minutes because of the wear and tear and heat. And I agree with the point already made that lipos & brushless would save money in the long run.

The Tamiya silver can motor I'm using in the endurance race are notorious for their longetivity and can take the punishment. Even if I burn one up in the main (which I doubt) it only costs $17 to replace it.

I know lipo and brushless are the future. But I really do think ROAR did the right thing for 2007. But, I expect something to give in 2008. The best thing ROAR can do is to put a time table on it so that all the current manufacturers and racers that have so much invested in RC will have a chance to part of the change and and budget accordingly.

[B4 Stealth]

I run 2 classes (Mod Truck & Mod Buggy) and brushless is the future so I need 2 of the latest brushless systems that have low voltage protection for lipos 2 x $250 = $500 and then at least 3 batteries at $125 = $375 and an equalizer $50 and an a Lipo compatible charger $125.

You have a good point about selling off my old stuff. I could probably get $200 for my old escs, motors, packs, so it would only be $850. Obviously, it would only be under $500 if I ran just one class.

But I wonder how many at my club will follow? My guess is probably less than half would stay in electric and the rest would go nitro. What's really killing electric is the proliferation of high quality nearly race ready RTR nitro vehicles. You can get a Jammin RTR for about $500.

I prefer electric, but as time goes on, it's becomming clearer that nothing is going to slow down the expansion of nitro off road. Those guys burn through $2500-5000 a season and never seem to care or complain and apparently, their vehicles never flame out or break? To top it off, all the indoor tracks close to me have added ventilation so the nitro guys can run all year.

And when was the last time anybody read an agonizing debate over ROAR decisions regarding nitro vehicles?
and when was the last time nitro had something this revolutionary? NEVER!!

[RControl Freak]

and when was the last time nitro had something this revolutionary? NEVER!!

still, you gotta remember, nitros are a little more limited, due to the engine!

[meancrxsir]

I wonder why they are not allowed?

[Craps]

When ROAR will allow LI-POs will be just like BRUSHLESS MOTORs is when Ernie P. with Trinity offers them for sale and don't forget Ernie P. is the ROAR electric technical rep to IFMAR.

Amazing how much influence one manufacturer has in ROAR.

While I was Indianapolis, IN on business, I spent last Saturday evening visiting Planet RC and I witnessed a low turnout of electrics for such a great place to race with 26 total entries. Several racers there told me electric is dying around there and they were ready for li-pos/brushless to come in and make a change that will hopefully bring electric racing back. Of course you had the few hard core electric racers that thought it would ruin it, but I also noticed these guys were the ones with all the high tech equipment in the pits to tune those nickel batteries and brushed motors in that tells me they do not want to give up that huge technical advantage that has drove alot of racers out of electric to gas. Then they wonder why electric is dying versuses compared to the RC airplane world had huge growth in electric when li-pos/brushless came in bringing alot of fliers back from gas to electric with longer flying times and less maintence.

[MarkWesterfield]

At the Northeast RC Pro Series off-road race this weekend at Long Island Raceway, a Brushless Lipo truck class was offered, and their wasn't enough entries (3 entries I believe was the word going around) to run the class. Plenty of racers in the modified truck class with NiMH though.

I see the same trend at my local track. The few guys that do run Lipo batteries are not willing to spend more money on a entry fee for a trophy race, let alone the extra money that it would cost to travel to a high level race, maybe its just the long days.

The guys with NiMH batteries in the Northeast are certainly more supportive of organized, sanctioned racing than guys running Lipo, thats for certain.

[MarkWesterfield]

I seem to remember Ernie mentioning that ROAR had developed brushless rules with LRP and Novak in a meeting without his knowledge. Brushless was legal for ROAR races well before Trinity had even had advertised selling brushless equipment, in fact, Trinity advertisements tried to persuade people not to buy brushless.

Perhaps ROAR will make Lipo legal when a majority of its membership wants it legal (not just a handful of non-member, internet complainers). Perhaps they will make Lipo legal when a Lipo manufacturer works with ROAR to develop a set of standards and rules for this new technology.

Have any of you guys pushing for Lipo legalization even contacted Maxamps, Apogee, or any of the other manufacturers to become ROAR affiliates and send some batteries to create rules for? My guess is no, I figure all you guys have done is posted a few complaints on a few forums. I imagine it would be comparative to the amount of effort you guys have put into making Lipo legal to the amount of effort you ACCUSE Trinity and Ernie Provetti making to prevent Lipo from becoming legal.

[WJ Birmingham]

Have any of you guys pushing for Lipo legalization even contacted Maxamps, Apogee, or any of the other manufacturers to become ROAR affiliates and send some batteries to create rules for? My guess is no, I figure all you guys have done is posted a few complaints on a few forums. I imagine it would be comparative to the amount of effort you guys have put into making Lipo legal to the amount of effort you ACCUSE Trinity and Ernie Provetti making to prevent Lipo from becoming legal.

Actually, I contacted ROAR earlier this year about our packs and having them legalized within ROAR. This was their response on 8/21/06 (1 week before the 2007 deadline):

"I will look into this further, but I do know we do not have provisions in the rules to cover these batteries. We have discussed some issues such as safety, cell shape and the voltage rating, but we never put this to committee to develop rules covering use. I will contact you once we have more information." - David Lee

We want our packs legalized within ROAR, however if they don't want to work with us, there's not much we can do.

-WJ
Apogee

[MarkWesterfield]

well, I would imagine there is a lot to discuss about cell shape, and capacity. Which lipo cells should they legalize? what dimensions should be legal? What capacity should be legal? For instance, a touring car that can fit a 8000 mah pack the size of a six cell nimh stick pack has a definite capacity advantage over a touring car that requires saddle packs. How could you make rules that exclude the "older" lipo technology from a few years ago that was dangerous? How can you tell the difference between the older cells from the new ones?

Thats just a few things off the top of my head, I would think a committee of people would have even more questions.

btw, which Lipo saddle pack on the Apogee website would be suitable for a Jconcepts BJ4 Worlds Edition?

[Maxx42]

btw, which Lipo saddle pack on the Apogee website would be suitable for a Jconcepts BJ4 Worlds Edition?

If you take the 800mah 20c cell and made a 2s2p pack with it, you could fit that pack in the same space as 3 sub c sized nimh cells. Now take that same apogee pack, duplicate it and place the second pack in the other battery tray in the bj4. Now connect the 2 packs in parallel, and you now have a 2s4p 3200mah pack that is rated for 64 amps constant discharge that will fit in the same space as a nimh saddle pack.

[nicholcgn]

Well specs should not be that hard.

Why not something like:

Set a standard for the min allowed amp draw cont\10 sec burst.

Overall Max battery size for width\length\height. (Cell size and # do not matter we only need complete battery)

Overall Peak Voltage for the pack. (Measured 5 min after charging or whatever time it takes a pack to stableize out. Should be 8.4 I believe for a 2s)

MAH rating for pack - (I kinda wonder about this. Most of my batteries never
had the peek advertised for NIMH. Always had more. My 3300
normaly had around 3700)

This should be listed on pack as well as: (But not required at a set level for approval.)

Average Voltage(Nominal) at XX amp discharge. (What would be a good standard?)

Cell Configuration

Recommended Cutoff Voltage for complete pack. IE (7.4 Average pack might have 6.4 for one man but another says 6 volt cutoff.)

Max Amp Draw continuous\10 sec Burst

IR Maybe?

ROAR Approval Date or atleast a line stating roar approved?

I would believe the battery guys could tell us what is most useful. I think peak voltage for a pack is useful and should be a standard max. Not sure if this matters as much for lipo or not.

I think we need standards for legality and the equivalent of a specs label that has some standard way of letting us see the batteries and what we can expect.

[WJ Birmingham]

Well specs should not be that hard.

Why not something like:

Set a standard for the min allowed amp draw cont\10 sec burst.

Overall Max battery size for width\length\height. (Cell size and # do not matter we only need complete battery)

Overall Peak Voltage for the pack. (Measured 5 min after charging or whatever time it takes a pack to stableize out. Should be 8.4 I believe for a 2s)

MAH rating for pack - (I kinda wonder about this. Most of my batteries never
had the peek advertised for NIMH. Always had more. My 3300
normaly had around 3700)

This should be listed on pack as well as: (But not required at a set level for approval.)

Average Voltage(Nominal) at XX amp discharge. (What would be a good standard?)

Cell Configuration

Recommended Cutoff Voltage for complete pack. IE (7.4 Average pack might have 6.4 for one man but another says 6 volt cutoff.)

Max Amp Draw continuous\10 sec Burst

IR Maybe?

ROAR Approval Date or atleast a line stating roar approved?

I would believe the battery guys could tell us what is most useful. I think peak voltage for a pack is useful and should be a standard max. Not sure if this matters as much for lipo or not.

I think we need standards for legality and the equivalent of a specs label that has some standard way of letting us see the batteries and what we can expect.

I think you're trying to over complicate this.

Battery technology has far exceeded ROAR's ruleset. Back in the 80s, when I entered the hobby, Sanyo SCR1300s were the best cells you could get. SCE1700s were just entering the car market when I left cars to get into aircraft.

Back then (I'm assuming it still can occur), it was quite possible to get single cell wrappers under the table from Sanyo (don't ask me how I know this). People were putting 1300 wrappers on 1700 cells to get the extra run time to run the hotter motors and get higher voltage on cells.

Too much has been focused on cell size. Size... Who cares? If it fits, use it. Unlike Nickel, we (the lithium community) can tool cells for any size at the drop of a dime. ROAR has allowed cells to grow in size for Nickel chemistry at will. Compare the "old" Sub-C 1300s from the 80s to the new 4200 mAh IB or GP cells.

There's not even a standard in the round cell world as to what testing paremeter is used. Some companies use 30 amps, some use 35 amps, and some even stop their testing "X" amps at 5 minutes regardless of total capacity to make their voltage under load look better.

All Li-Po chargers use a constant current/constant voltage charge scheme. They charge the cells to 8.4V (2-cell), or 12.6V (3-cell) and then stop. There is no "peak", there is no "trickle". They simply stop. So in reality, you will actually have a more equal field of cars with Lithium due to initial voltage than with nickel cells.

What it should come down to is 3 things.

1. Total capacity at 1C rating. Tested spec should be within +/- 3% of rated capacity. This keeps manufacturer's from understating capacity to overstate discharge.

2. Cell count. Back in the day we used 6-cell for stock, and 7-cell for mod (Nickel). Lithium should be the same way. 2-cell for stock, 3-cell for mod. Chances are the 3-cell packs will be too fast for almost anyone to use anyhow, making the power gains moot.

3. Total racing weight. The cars should have a RTR weight designated by ROAR. Whether Li-Po or Nickel, your car should meet this weight.

-WJ

[The_Mini_Me]

Well when we have you here Mr. Birmingham, can the basic one cell voltage/chemistry be increased? It sounds like there is a good chance of sedans going to 4.8. And with 12th scale and oval already this route in ROAR. It does limit more and more where lipos could be used if even allowed. In short, there wont be any classes left for this technology the way things are going!

Also, I mentioned earlier in this thread about lipo manufacturers coming out with a universal balancer plug system that ROAR should require. Has there been any talks between manufacturers beyond competition to trying to resolve this?

[WJ Birmingham]

Well when we have you here Mr. Birmingham, can the basic one cell voltage/chemistry be increased? It sounds like there is a good chance of sedans going to 4.8. And with 12th scale and oval already this route in ROAR. It does limit more and more where lipos could be used if even allowed. In short, there wont be any classes left for this technology the way things are going!

Also, I mentioned earlier in this thread about lipo manufacturers coming out with a universal balancer plug system that ROAR should require. Has there been any talks between manufacturers beyond competition to trying to resolve this?

I haven't inquired as to whether voltage could be increased or decreased. Anything is possible, I'm sure. The key is whether or not there's enough of a market to warrant production. You have to keep in mind that Lithium Ion is now a mainstay in a large amount of electronic devices ranging from cameras to laptops, and even electric shavers. The 3.6 nominal voltage is driven by this larger market, not R/C.

The technology is going nowhere soon. In fact, it's still in it's infancy, and is increasing at the rate that CPU's did back in the early 90s. If ROAR doesn't want to work with Lithiums, that's fine, the RC Pro Series already dwarfs ROAR, and they're pro-active enough to see that Lithium is a huge technology step forward (We've already been approved for next year http://electricoffroad.rcprosites.com/).

As for standardization of the voltage ports. Not sure what to tell you. We were the first to create such a port, and as such the standard was set. Why other's chose not to follow is beyond my comprehension. I selected a Molex plug that was used on EVERY CD-ROM in EVERY computer in this country, and possibly on the planet. It is a high grade low cost connector.

Balancing is a gimmick perpetuated by those who don't match cells. We put them on there to placate the paranoid...but that's another Springer show.

-WJ

[CarbonMadness]

Balancing is a gimmick perpetuated by those who don't match cells. We put them on there to placate the paranoid...but that's another Springer show.

:huh:
Can you go in def on this one?

Wouldn't balancing make the pack perform better months after you used it? Like with Ni-MH we equallize the batt. to help it last longer, and to get it better performance, so isn't balancing the same thing?

[B4 Stealth]

Good ideas guys

[The_Mini_Me]

:huh:
Can you go in def on this one?

Wouldn't balancing make the pack perform better months after you used it? Like with Ni-MH we equallize the batt. to help it last longer, and to get it better performance, so isn't balancing the same thing?

Not exactly the same idea. I will let Birmingham explain.

W.J., There is one major flaw in your idea. Its not just ROAR. Internationally, racing organizations are changing. Europe went 5 cell this year, and Japan has gone 4 cell in Sedans. It will only be a matter of time before IFMAR will soon reflect these changes. The RC Pro series for all its worth does not have as much if any say in these more global ideas that manufacturers look at. One of the major reasons given these days for this lowered voltage is that the cars are getting too fast, while the motors burn up easier (I would think a easier solution would change the max motor specs-but ehh, what do I know according to some of the ROAR leads).

[nicholcgn]

Cars are to fast? You don't think they will stress 4 cell? Do not buy that. Design a new stock motor that is not as fast. The lower the voltage the more heat my stuff makes. Give me plenty of voltage and design a motor that only runs as fast as stock should be on that voltage.

The only reason I like sizee is that you can now buy a battery that will work in multiple cars. This is for the drivers and saving my pocket book some.

I still think all specs should be on the batteries and charging and discharging recommendations\limits. If the information is right there then you have little excuse for following it. A sticker aint that expensive.
Kinda like the nutrition information on food. Too much info aint bad.

Some items are for safety - Min amp draw. Lets be real. Some people are just plain cheap. They will see 4800 mah and that is as good as the $150 batteries for $60. The discharge is 5c and now we have a hazard waiting for a place to happen. Roar should not approve a battery unless it has a certain amp draw. Thus the seal. Some specs are for fairness some are for basic safety.

[Windsorguy99]

LiPo does indeed have packaging flexibility...packs can be of various sizes and shapes...

How then, should manufacturers design their chassis layouts to accommodate LiPo cells? Should the designated battery areas be long and thin? Short and wide? how much height should they allow for the cells?

In disctributing the mass around the chassis, what basic range of masses and mass distribution will they need to allow for?

A dimensional standard is indeed important.

[WJ Birmingham]

Ok, let me see if I can hit all of the topics of the day.

Voltage
First, going to a lower cell count will NOT slow the cars down in the long run. They will eventually be just as fast as with current 6-cell counts. Remember when we used to run 7-cell mod? 6-cells are now just as fast a 7-cells back in the day due to increasing motor/battery technologies.

All decreasing cell counts will do is to put higher strain on the power system (all facets) thus increasing your maintenance and replacement costs as parts will wear out faster. It's Ohm's law. Double the voltage = 1/2 the amperage, given the same output. Amps generate heat. Reduce the amps, reduce the heat, and everything lives longer and performs better.

Cell Sizing
This should be pretty darn simple. Take the current length/width of a Sub-C pack and use that at maximum dimensional criteria. Sub-C cells are the same dimensions whether in side by side, or stick pack (or they used to be before ROAR allowed super sized sub-cs). Height is moot. Length/Width and Weight (total car weight that is) need be the only criteria.

Discharge Rate
You are exactly correct about some people being cheap. In fact, there's a LOT of cheap people who would rather buy the same cheap product 3 times before buying a good product once. Why? I have absolutely no idea. My other hobby is blown alcohol drag racing, and I learned a LONG time ago that you get what you pay for, and you can never pay enough for safety. But, back on topic...

The discharge rate is rather moot, and here's why...

Let's take two packs, and for simplicity we'll use the 4200 mAh limit of ROAR, but we'll assume Li-Po and not Nickel. One pack is a high quality known name brand at a reasonable price. Another is also a well known brand, but one who focuses on being cheap and the cells are slightly over rated as to what they can do.

From a basher's standpoint, they don't care. They will use the cheap cells until they are used up, then buy more cheap cells. They simply don't care about having the best voltage under load. They simply want cheap.

From a racers standpoint, they want the best, and to get the best they will pay top dollar (for the most part), but they expect for their top dollar to get products that perform as rated.

A basher's pack WILL work, but when matched against a racer's pack, the performance difference will be evident. The lower end pack will simply not put out the proper voltage under load (Ever see people complaining about "cogging"??? These are the same guys using cheap packs and even cheaper connectors), which causes a host of issues, including premature death of the battery.

From a safety issue (still relating to discharge), from the testing we've done, on stock motors, with a FT TC4, you're only pulling about 15A average (this is with a data logger), and about 22A max under initial acceleration from a dead stop. Using a 8T Mod motor, we were seeing ~45A average, and ~65A from a dead stop. This was on carpet that had been glued. Traction was at a premium. So even the cheapest 10C cells of 4200 mAh can give the required amperage for down to a 8-10T brushed motor (brushless of the same speed draw LESS amperage), however they won't give the same voltage as a quality 20C cell, and thus will have less snap and less top speed.

Balancing
I knew some day I'd slip up and open my mouth on a forum regarding this gimmick. I tell those who call regularly about this. I guess it’s about time to put it into words on paper.

Ok, let's do a history check here. About 5 years ago, lithium cells started infiltrating the aircraft market. People were buying surplus LOW discharge cells, and using them in small electric aircraft known as "Park Flyers". These aircraft weighed less than a pound, and didn't draw but about 5-7 amps at max. A 2-cell 1200 mAh pack would run the aircraft for about 20 minutes, which is plenty of flight time. They quickly realized that cell voltage imbalance was a huge problem if not monitored and could cause fires as one cell would be over discharge or overcharged.

So, guys started putting an individual lead on the pack that was linked to the center cell tabs. Now they could connect this center lead to either the positive or negative main lead output and get individual cell voltage. They could then further correct the individual cell voltage by charging one cell or the other, placing them in balance.

This was all being done by airplane guys who for the most part either didn’t know about the benefits of cell matching, or were too cheap to buy the proper equipment to do so. Matched cells in Nickel chemistry are a luxury that increases performance.

Matched cells in the Lithium industry are a requirement for safety. Repeated over discharging or overcharging a lithium cell will cause rapid deterioration of the cell matrix, causing an eventual internal dead short after which you have a high likelihood of a fire.

From day one, when we started Apogee, matched cells were a must. Due to this, we didn’t put a means to balance the cells on the pack (only one company was at that time, and you had no way of knowing which cell you were connecting to with 3 or more cells because they were using JST connectors).

After customer complaints of not being able to check cell balance, we added the Voltage Port to placate those wanting to check cell balance. We were the first to put a commercial grade connector on a pack, and Bob Boucher of AstroFlight liked it so much that he made a balancer to interface with it (but, with our packs, it was pretty much moot).

I’m getting long winded here, so let me try and wrap this up and get to the point. Even to this day, many of the companies selling Lithium packs DO NOT match the packs. They put the balance port on there and put the responsibility of maintaining pack balance on the end consumer. They buy cells in bulk, and assemble them in house to meet orders. This cuts down on their overhead because they don’t have to stock many pack configurations. This is not the safest way to build packs, nor does it contribute to good performing packs. If you take a properly matched pack and use it per the pack labeling (we’re still the only company to put tolerances on the labels), there should not be a cell voltage imbalance throughout the life of the pack unless there is a cell failing. If a cell is failing, there’s not a darn thing a balancer will do to fix it. THAT is why I say that balancing is a gimmick.

-WJ

[Windsorguy99]

Unfortunately Height is not moot as the Orion 4800 cell does not fit in many touring cars. their hardcase was designed around the basic length/height/width of an assembled pack, not taking into consideration that many (if not most) chassis are counter-sunk for the rounded profile of the sub-C.

In applications where batteries will be either held in place with a strap, or positioned between 2 decks, maximum height does indeed become a critical dimension.

[WJ Birmingham]

Unfortunately Height is not moot as the Orion 4800 cell does not fit in many touring cars. their hardcase was designed around the basic length/height/width of an assembled pack, not taking into consideration that many (if not most) chassis are counter-sunk for the rounded profile of the sub-C.

In applications where batteries will be either held in place with a strap, or positioned between 2 decks, maximum height does indeed become a critical dimension.

If it was 4200 mAh or less, it would fit. ;)

[neweuser]

WJ - what is your opinion on Maxamps?

[The_Mini_Me]

neweuser,

I dont think he can answer that for you since thats direct competition (remember, he runs Apogee batts). However, I personally highly suspect them to be ones buying cells in bulk.

I might mention having WJ Birmingham here to actually clear some misconceptions makes me all the more willing to choose Apogee packs the next time I need a lipo or limn for my 1/18th series.

[neweuser]

I see, but anyone has an opinion regardless. I have bought many packs from maxamps and I personally love'em. I would say they may buy bulk, not sure, talking to Austin several occasions, he tests his products prior to selling or building and really builds great packs. I have rarely ever had to balance them at all. The only pack that I have ever had to really balance was one of my 2s2ps. But after two runs its stays in balance and I only check ti every now and then but still never need to balance it.

[CarbonMadness]

...Balancing
I knew some day I'd slip up and open my mouth on a forum regarding this gimmick. I tell those who call regularly about this. I guess it’s about time to put it into words on paper.

Ok, let's do a history check here. About 5 years ago, lithium cells started infiltrating the aircraft market. People were buying surplus LOW discharge cells, and using them in small electric aircraft known as "Park Flyers". These aircraft weighed less than a pound, and didn't draw but about 5-7 amps at max. A 2-cell 1200 mAh pack would run the aircraft for about 20 minutes, which is plenty of flight time. They quickly realized that cell voltage imbalance was a huge problem if not monitored and could cause fires as one cell would be over discharge or overcharged.

So, guys started putting an individual lead on the pack that was linked to the center cell tabs. Now they could connect this center lead to either the positive or negative main lead output and get individual cell voltage. They could then further correct the individual cell voltage by charging one cell or the other, placing them in balance.

This was all being done by airplane guys who for the most part either didn’t know about the benefits of cell matching, or were too cheap to buy the proper equipment to do so. Matched cells in Nickel chemistry are a luxury that increases performance.

Matched cells in the Lithium industry are a requirement for safety. Repeated over discharging or overcharging a lithium cell will cause rapid deterioration of the cell matrix, causing an eventual internal dead short after which you have a high likelihood of a fire.

From day one, when we started Apogee, matched cells were a must. Due to this, we didn’t put a means to balance the cells on the pack (only one company was at that time, and you had no way of knowing which cell you were connecting to with 3 or more cells because they were using JST connectors).

After customer complaints of not being able to check cell balance, we added the Voltage Port to placate those wanting to check cell balance. We were the first to put a commercial grade connector on a pack, and Bob Boucher of AstroFlight liked it so much that he made a balancer to interface with it (but, with our packs, it was pretty much moot).

I’m getting long winded here, so let me try and wrap this up and get to the point. Even to this day, many of the companies selling Lithium packs DO NOT match the packs. They put the balance port on there and put the responsibility of maintaining pack balance on the end consumer. They buy cells in bulk, and assemble them in house to meet orders. This cuts down on their overhead because they don’t have to stock many pack configurations. This is not the safest way to build packs, nor does it contribute to good performing packs. If you take a properly matched pack and use it per the pack labeling (we’re still the only company to put tolerances on the labels), there should not be a cell voltage imbalance throughout the life of the pack unless there is a cell failing. If a cell is failing, there’s not a darn thing a balancer will do to fix it. THAT is why I say that balancing is a gimmick.

-WJ
"I knew some day I'd slip up and open my mouth on a forum regarding this gimmick. "
:teacher: It was for the better that you did.

[danhfvcsd]

cant be bothered reading all of this - but if you guys wanna race lipos - there's always the option of switching to boats next year? -lol-

[InspGadgt]

Ok, let me see if I can hit all of the topics of the day.

Voltage
First, going to a lower cell count will NOT slow the cars down in the long run. They will eventually be just as fast as with current 6-cell counts. Remember when we used to run 7-cell mod? 6-cells are now just as fast a 7-cells back in the day due to increasing motor/battery technologies.

All decreasing cell counts will do is to put higher strain on the power system (all facets) thus increasing your maintenance and replacement costs as parts will wear out faster. It's Ohm's law. Double the voltage = 1/2 the amperage, given the same output. Amps generate heat. Reduce the amps, reduce the heat, and everything lives longer and performs better.

First part is very true...the same thing happened in F1 racing over the years. To try to slow down the cars cornering speeds they reduced the size of the wings and changed their heights to reduce their effectiveness then they reduced the tire sized by adding grooves. All they ended up with was cars that are faster down the straights, just as fast in the corners, but more dangerous due to the less grip and downforce.

I'm not up on my Ohm's law these days or how it's applied...however this doesn't seem to hold true based on observation. I used to run 6 cell stock 1/12th scale and am now running 4 cell stock 1/12th scale and have noticed a significant decrease in motor temp and an increase in motor lifespan. Heck I ran 3 full races on a motor and the brushes still were not fully seated.

[The_Mini_Me]

I'm not up on my Ohm's law these days or how it's applied...however this doesn't seem to hold true based on observation. I used to run 6 cell stock 1/12th scale and am now running 4 cell stock 1/12th scale and have noticed a significant decrease in motor temp and an increase in motor lifespan. Heck I ran 3 full races on a motor and the brushes still were not fully seated.

He's not talking about the motor. Hes talking about the batteries and esc. Both are put under more pressure. Did you know that they basically went through a pack for each heat and mains at this years Japans nats in mod sedan on 4 cell? The packs were pushed soo much because of the increased amp draw, that the next charge reduced their total discharge curve significantly enough for non competition.

[InspGadgt]

He's not talking about the motor. Hes talking about the batteries and esc. Both are put under more pressure. Did you know that they basically went through a pack for each heat and mains at this years Japans nats in mod sedan on 4 cell? The packs were pushed soo much because of the increased amp draw, that the next charge reduced their total discharge curve significantly enough for non competition.

At least in 1/12th my batteries are not running any warmer either then they did in 6 cell. Seems to me most national races I've seen or had friends go to have had 1 run packs at the pro level.

Even so that's likely to happen to average racers too given the amount of stress on the drivetrain and motor in a touring car. However they are stuck in a catch22...make the motors slower and manufacturers will just find ways to make them faster just like in F1.

[Craps]

Actually, I contacted ROAR earlier this year about our packs and having them legalized within ROAR. This was their response on 8/21/06 (1 week before the 2007 deadline):

"I will look into this further, but I do know we do not have provisions in the rules to cover these batteries. We have discussed some issues such as safety, cell shape and the voltage rating, but we never put this to committee to develop rules covering use. I will contact you once we have more information." - David Lee

We want our packs legalized within ROAR, however if they don't want to work with us, there's not much we can do.

-WJ
Apogee

I want to thank WJ for coming in and backing up the exposure of the corruption involving ROAR and by being a manufacturers rep, educating the uninformed and the misinformed newbie posters here about lithium batteries!!!

Again when Ernie P. with Trinity is ready to sell lithium batteries, the approval process will happen overnight.

[MarkWesterfield]

Why keep complaining about ROAR? Just ignore ROAR and go race in RC Pro series, they allow Lipo.

[schenck77]

I knew that last post would get you mark. :D

[WJ Birmingham]

Ok, time for my next morning post before getting the day rolling...

Maxamps... No comment (which should be their same reply if you ask them about Apogee). It's not politically correct for competitors to be giving opinions on each other. I will say that I'm impressed as to how much he spends on marketing.

Gadgt, when you moved from 6-cells to 4-cells, did you change your gearing to maintain the same end MPH? If you didn't, then you lost voltage and speed, and thus pulled less amps generating less heat. If you did, then there's no way via physics and electrical principles to pull less amperage.

Minime, when I said "all facets", I meant "all facets" (motors/controllers/batteries).

Craps, what you're saying is not new, and has been known for decades about ROAR. They are a governing body made up by business owners within the industry. They are simply protecting their own business interests. That's not being corrupt, it's simply smart business.

I also don't know how you can say it's Ernie keeping lipos out of ROAR. He advertised viamently against brushless, and they made it into ROAR anyhow.

-WJ

[Ed237]

I havent seen anybody demanding lipos at the 3 tracks I visited this year. Granted, those tracks are small and only one of those tracks hosted a major event, but even so, the demand doesnt seem to be there when I meet racers in person.

This makes me wonder if this push for Lipos is just some sort of money grab. The 1 or 2 companies who sell lipos will make millions but they have to do it right now. If they wait another year there will be competiton and they wont get all the cash. I hate those kinds of cut-throat big business tactics. Thats what's ruining it for everybody. Its always about the power and cash. Those bastards are making Ernie P look like Santa Claus.

I dont belive that. I wrote that just to make a point. Thats what the 'ROAR is part of a conspiracy' argument sounds like to me. Its getting tired. Give it rest already!

At worst, ROAR might be making a mistake by delaying Lipos another year. I'm not convinced that they have. There was just another 'Can I run my Lipo battery until it dumps' question posed by a newbie on the forum here in the last week or two.

[CarbonMadness]

The main reason Li-PO batteries aren't selling as good as they should is because of the current push with Ni-MH (what are we at 4300), and not all of the racers want to buy a new high end charger just to charge Li-PO batteries. There are people who charge with there current charger who use a voltage cut off, because they don't know anything about charging LI-PO batteries (the charger is only for Ni-Cd and Ni-MH).

So in theory the main reason on why Li-PO batteries aren't selling is because no one wants to buy a new charger just to run a new type of battery.
Also what would be the point of racing if there were no such thing as rules? If there were no rules then you could run a 14 cell 4300mAh Ni-MH battery pack with a 4 turn single in stock class. (That’s a huge difference from going to stock to heavily modified, but that the way things would be without any sort of rule set)

[The_Mini_Me]

After this thread and a few other on rctech.

I don't think we are going to see ROAR for awhile if ever accepting Lipos. Again, the 4 cell shift being one of the primary reasons. Even if Lipo manufacturers saw a benefit of changing the core technology to make a 1 cell mimick a 4.8 4 cell nimh. Most all current Lipo chargers and the newer escs with lipo cutoff would instantly become obsolete. Which would be a worse situation than even ED describes.

RC PRO series is the future for Lipo. ROAR and in turn IFMAR isn't. Sure, call me a pessimist, but the voltage is being sourced as the issue to change in many organizations around the world calling for a "slow down" versus simply upping the turns or lowering the KV on motors. So Lipo or limn as it currently is not going to be the technology that replaces NIimh. Seems more like that li-ion 123 idea with the built in voltage conversion would only fit. 2009 is when we might see a change for at least those new li-ion types. But Lipo? Its over before it begun.

[InspGadgt]

Gadgt, when you moved from 6-cells to 4-cells, did you change your gearing to maintain the same end MPH? If you didn't, then you lost voltage and speed, and thus pulled less amps generating less heat. If you did, then there's no way via physics and electrical principles to pull less amperage.

Didn't need to...if anything I dropped a couple teeth...but I'm talking a difference of 8 to 10 years in motor technology. In that time motor technology has gotten much faster then when I ran 6 cell. After a 6 cell race my motor and batteries would be darn near cooking in pan car and close to nuclear in TC. With today's motors and batteries it's running much much cooler on the motor and a bit on the hot side for the batteries.

[The_Mini_Me]

Insptr, trying to obtain the same speed in sedan has been described like having to go from 6 cell 27 turn to 4 cell 19 turn. Thats how great a distinction you first need to realize just in the drop. Now, your requirements would be running a mod sedan on 4 cell. While your end goal would be trying to come as close as possible to reaching the same speed as you had on 6 cell. First you need to understand is your amp draw is increased; your amp draw actually decreases with more voltage (see WJs formula). Second, you will need to drop down 2-4 turns to get near the same top end. Now try to balance that with runtime with the amp draw being so tremendous.

People in sedan classes will be going through 4 cell packs much quicker than they did 6 cells. Dumping will once again raise its ugly heads. Batteries will reach higher temperatures when racing. The esc will have to work harder with the increased amp draws. Finally (and point of contention) the motor will still be very hot, as you increased the pinions, and possible depending on class went to a lower turn or higher KV.

So basically any advantage about it being cheaper for the end user is laughable in the face of physics. 4 cell 12th scale is a different beast. You aren't dealing with the much higher amp draws in it.

Dont forget that brushless motors can increase the initial amp draw on top of everything else.

Im curious with 4 cell oval if they have compared the life of their packs to 6 cell ovalers? But even they dont have the power draw a sedan does.

You know, the best thing to do since it wouldnt effect to motor nor battery manufacturers?

Increase the race time to double. I would rather people now have to contend with dumping, and so now gear and motor more conservatively than dropping to 4 cells which will just give more justification for people to jump to gas since they will get more tracktime. This way also, it will really help lipos to be accepted quickly as this is one area where lipos will shine.

[dj_ski69]

Some questions to all....
Who says that cars are getting too fast....?

I live in Japan and every track around my area races with 6 cells NOT 4....so where and who in Japan has made this monumental decision to goto 4 cells for sedans....?

Whats more important....the business of the hobby or the hobby itself....?

A question for WJ.... and anyone else who cares to addin....

What is the difference in performance between 7.4v Li-Po and a 7.2 volt Nimh Battery Pack....?
I say none and can backup my claim...But since the Almighty ROAR Rejects think that there is, I would like to know whats thier claim to that logic...


And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Ernie P's complaint against brushless more directed toward rule changes and implementations that favored a particular manufacturer and also because a brushless motor was used to win a national event that year....and that special treatent was given to that person and his team to use that motor....?
I don't think he was against brushless motors...just the shady stuff that surrounded the initial buzz....

SkI

[NiMo]

Just to let you know the BRCA (England) side of things:
BRCA have also banned LiPo's (on safety grounds),
4-cell, 5-cell, 6-cell ?
BRCA have retained 6-cell, but have also started 4-cell believing EFRA would do the same, but EFRA went 5-cell at a 4-cell weight (1350g), so what I believe is happening in 2007 is:
27T - stays 6-cell
19T - stays 6-cell
4-cell - runs with 19T
5-cell (1350g) and 6-cell (1500g) will run together.
Why?
so they can see the +'s and -'s off each combination and then decide which route to go in 2008

I believe that the EFRA decision to go 5-cell was actually based on the 6v issue, which then would mean that 6v is the magic number things will be run to (Li-Ion 123 is 6v without the booster)

The problems we are having with 6-cell is a number of blown ESC and Motors, and because of this the entry level has dropped, 5-cell (or 6v) should help in all areas.

Incidentaly I run a LiPo 4800 in an F103GT at club level, and as yet have not even come close to a safety issue, I have still to purchase that voltage cut off thing.

[dj_ski69]

I have raced off-road and now onroad for a number of years and have never blown an esc that ran brushed motors...
To me it sounds like a lack of knowledge on how to set up and run a race car per the conditions of the track.....
going down to 6v is just a bandage for a wider problem....if ignorance is the case....

[The_Mini_Me]

Dj, I assume the tracks you run at are outlaw tracks (same as tracks here that don't follow ROAR), or you don't run mod. But JRMCA indeed has implemented that rule. Here is a older press release (http://www.rcracer.com.au/news_detail.php?id=140) about it.

Here are the Japan nats.. running 4cell.

http://www.yokomousa.com/newproducts/movies/dvd06te.wmv

[RControl Freak]

pretty cool footage

[InspGadgt]

Mini Me I get it...4 cell seems fine in pan cars but sedans put a lot more stress on the system in general...then top that off by dropping a few winds to try and get back the lost speed and it's a recipie for problems. It'll be good for us pan car drivers because now they will be less expensive to run again but bad for the sedan guys.

[scoob]

If they drop to 4-cell, won't companies just start making 3,4,5 turn motors. A mod would just be pulling the same energy from fewer cells. I don't understand why they would want to slow them down anyway. It's not like it's dangerous to drive a fast RC car.
ROAR is not ready for lipo or any lithium battery yet, but they will be eventually. It may be a different type of lithium battery that eventually becomes mainstream. NiMh batts are OK but Lipo is on another level, from a performance standpoint. My favorite thing about racing with lipo is how much easier it is to use. To get consistent, excellent performance, you simply charge it.

[MarkWesterfield]

whats really funny about the four cell debate is that running four cells in electric class is and has been legal. 6 cells is the maximum. Woohoo! bring on the single turn motors!

[WJ Birmingham]

Glad to see some good discussion here rather than rants....

-WJ

[LD3Furious]

Wasn't a major 2wd buggy or maybe a TC race won recently where traction was so low that drivers were using 5 cells with a "dummy" cell so no one would catch on...it looked like a normal 6c pack? I know I read something somewhere about this...just don't remember exactly where.

[MarkWesterfield]

At the 2007 off-road world championship, some drivers were testing 6 cell with 13 turn motors and some tried 12 turn motors with 5 cells in 2wd. A 6 cell powered car won. It had nothing really to do with the amount of cells in the car, Neil Craig was pretty much the only driver to make a nearly perfect race on the loose, rough track.

there doesn't need to be a dummy cell, 6 cells are the maximum, there is no minimum.

[CarbonMadness]

At the 2007 off-road world championship, some drivers were testing 6 cell with 13 turn motors and some tried 12 turn motors with 5 cells in 2wd. A 6 cell powered car won. It had nothing really to do with the amount of cells in the car, Neil Craig was pretty much the only driver to make a nearly perfect race on the loose, rough track.

there doesn't need to be a dummy cell, 6 cells are the maximum, there is no minimum.
Ryan C was doing great out there also. ;)


I couldn't agree more with you on the cell count. It doesn't matter if you have more cells or not. All it means is that people will have to relearn how to drive without spinning out. lol

Isn't part of the fun of racing going as fast as you can?