Mamba Max ESC compatible with Novak SS13.5 Brushless Motor?

[viperx07]

Hi, im getting the MM package with a 5700 but also am thinking of getting a brushless stock motor and was wondering if the MM ESC would be compatible with the Novak SS13.5 Brushless Motor because it is sensored.

If not or not yet, are there any other brushless "stock" motors that I can use for stock racing? Thanks.

[JeffEmbracedDC]

No.. and no.

Any sensored motors are currently not supported by the Mamba Max. However, they are definitely planning on updating the firmware so that eventually they will be able to run sensored motors including the novak SS.

I am pretty sure that currently there are no brushless "stock" motors that the mamba max will run, although I may be wrong.

-J

[viperx07]

Thanks for the speedy answer

[glassdoctor]

Caslte has yet to release an update for running the sensored motors, but that doesn't mean it can't be done or even that it won't work well. It's just that they haven't tested and verified that the software is "right" for these other motors.

It should run them pretty well, but there could be some cogging etc.... other than that it would be fine.

I don't recall anyone running a Novak motor with the MM.... if I had one i would try it. I do have an older 5800 motor but I don't use it... it's noisy. maybe I can give it a try sometime anyway....

I have thought about borrowing a Novak 13.5 just to see how it does with the MM.

[glassdoctor]

So... I would say

maybe and no

:)

[pinolelst]

Years ago I sent an aveox sensored motor and controller in for service and they sent back a sensorless controller along with the original sensored motor.I wrote them back and they said it would work fine but might cog slightly..less of a concern since it was in an airplane anyway..regardless it worked fine.

Will the Novak sensored motors work with sensorless controllers ?? I'd also say maybe but would defer to castle creations for the bottom line

pinolelst

[glassdoctor]

Let me say this... we have been using about every brand of sensorless motors with the MM without much trouble. Some have a little cogging but otherwise they run great... better than with some other escs.

Novak motors have been run with sensorless escs like Schulze etc and they worked fine, so why would it not work with the Mamba? It should work...

Generally, sensorless controllers will run any motor, sensored or sensorless. You just don't hook up the sensor wires, that's all. Sensored motors aren't that different... they just also happen to have sensors built in... but that doesn't mean you have to use them.

[glassdoctor]

A couple years ago there was a guy who ran a Novak 5800 with a Shuzle controlller and he claims it was faster than with the SS esc. I don't know if it had any cogging issues. But obviously it ran very well with his sensorless esc.

Food for thought....

[JeffEmbracedDC]

That's pretty interesting. We definitely need to have someone try the novak motors with the mamba max ESC. If anyone's got both or has a friend who might, maybe give it a shot and let us know how it works.

So I don't know a ton about the novak motors, but are the SS motors legal for stock races? Thanks.

-J

[pinolelst]

I have both but not sure I want to be the 1st guinea pig :p

Think I'll wait for aomeone with more money than me to try it first :D

Steve

[glassdoctor]

Well, lol... nothing bad's gonna happen. I actually asked CC what they thougth about it and they just said they haven't tested with them, but they guessed it would run ok but maybe have some start-up issues, aka cogging.

[ElectricThunder]

If I can hunt down some 4mm plugs at the LHS, then I'll try running my 5800 on the mamba (it has a velociti rotor, not the stock one though). I'll also try the HV4400 motor too if I find enough plugs.

This all depends on whether or not the LHS has 4mm gold plugs though.;)

[JeffEmbracedDC]

I think we would all appreciate that. Thanks, guys. I'm really interested. I might want to race with a stock brushless and it would be cool to know that I don't HAVE to wait for the update. Thanks, guys.

-J

[Grizzbob]

That's pretty interesting. We definitely need to have someone try the novak motors with the mamba max ESC. If anyone's got both or has a friend who might, maybe give it a shot and let us know how it works.

So I don't know a ton about the novak motors, but are the SS motors legal for stock races? Thanks.

-J
No, no brushless motor is stock legal by anyone's definition I know of(though some clubs may allow one of those motors, like the SS4300 or the new 13.5 turn Novak). But neither is equal to a stock motor, they're both too powerful. just to give you an idea, the 13.5 motor has been rated by Novak to put put out a peak of 167 watts at 7.2 volts(that's about 40 watts or more than any stocker I've ever tested or seen), & that's with the standard rotor, with the new sintered rotor, it's even stronger(my 13.5 feels a LOT like a strong 19 turn with the sintered rotor in it)..... :cool:

[ElectricThunder]

I think we would all appreciate that. Thanks, guys. I'm really interested. I might want to race with a stock brushless and it would be cool to know that I don't HAVE to wait for the update. Thanks, guys.

-J
You're going to have to wait until the weekend unfortunately. Tomorrow I'm jammed up between school and errands/homework, and then wednesday the hobby shop is closed. Thursday and Friday I'm jammed up with school and then work. So Saturday is the earliest I'll be able to get out there and see if either of my LHS's has 4mm gold plugs.

[SpEEdyBL]

The ss5800 that I once had, ran exceptionally well on my MGM Compro esc so I'm sure it can't be too difficult to make appropriate software for the mamba max. If anyone is wondering, the ss5800 was not any faster on the mgm esc than it was on the super sport esc, though it may have run cooler. I used 10* timing during testing. Anyhow, a 380c 13T should be comparable to a stock motor. I have a 380 12s and I would guess that it is sort of like a stock motor, but it's been a while since I actually ran one. I remember when my 17 turn speed gems motor blew me away on 1500 mah nicd packs, but my perspective on speed has changed since then.

[viperx07]

No, no brushless motor is stock legal by anyone's definition I know of(though some clubs may allow one of those motors, like the SS4300 or the new 13.5 turn Novak). But neither is equal to a stock motor, they're both too powerful. just to give you an idea, the 13.5 motor has been rated by Novak to put put out a peak of 167 watts at 7.2 volts(that's about 40 watts or more than any stocker I've ever tested or seen), & that's with the standard rotor, with the new sintered rotor, it's even stronger(my 13.5 feels a LOT like a strong 19 turn with the sintered rotor in it)..... :cool:


Well on a light car such as a B4, the extra power wont mean too much since the rpm will be comparable to a stock motor and the B4 is too light to really make use of that power. Or am i wrong? Anyway my local track told me that I could use the ss13.5 if I wanted to so will probably give it a shot sometime.

[JeffEmbracedDC]

Well on a light car such as a B4, the extra power wont mean too much since the rpm will be comparable to a stock motor and the B4 is too light to really make use of that power. Or am i wrong? Anyway my local track told me that I could use the ss13.5 if I wanted to so will probably give it a shot sometime.

They said you could run it in stock if you wanted?

-J

[viperx07]

yep thats what they said. I mean on the novak website it says comparable to a 27 turn pro stock motor so yeah

[Grizzbob]

Thing is though, the 13.5's edge is in torque, not rpm, so it'll be similar if you gear conservatively, but in truth you can put HUGE pinions on 'em & they just keep on pulling. Also, your car won't feel the same with them as with a brushed stocker, because brush;ess motors have almost NO cogging at all(you can just barely feel any when you have the sintered rotor in the 13.5, without it, you can't really feel any at all) so it can be very easy to overshoot corners(took me quite awhile to adjust my driving to it). But when you get the gearing right & get comfortable driving with it, your lap times will DEFINITELY be better, & you'll be able to mow down cars with brushed stocks..... :cool:

[viperx07]

well thats good I hope they dont change their minds hehe. O ye i just got my package and put in the 5700 and it sure RIPS!!! Cant wait to get my 3s lipa and try that :)

[scoob]

Tekin is going to release a sensorless "stock" motor but I don't know how long it will be. It is listed at Towerhobbies right now as "order pending".

[glassdoctor]

For what it's worth there are some guys I know that run the novak stock system in 1/10 truck stock class and they do well. But the top stock class racers say they don't care... they think a good brushed motor is faster. And they are the ones running head to head with the novak "bl stock".

I don't know... I don't run stock... but imo you can't tell any difference just watching. The fastest stock truck I have seen lately was running a brushed... some of us thought he had a 19t or something, but it checked out legit.

I must say though, that I question whether or not the guys running the novak had found the best gearing (gear up some more?) or had equal batteries....

[Grizzbob]

For what it's worth there are some guys I know that run the novak stock system in 1/10 truck stock class and they do well. But the top stock class racers say they don't care... they think a good brushed motor is faster. And they are the ones running head to head with the novak "bl stock".

I don't know... I don't run stock... but imo you can't tell any difference just watching. The fastest stock truck I have seen lately was running a brushed... some of us thought he had a 19t or something, but it checked out legit.

I must say though, that I question whether or not the guys running the novak had found the best gearing (gear up some more?) or had equal batteries....
Precisely, that's what I learned from the Novak USTC in Milwaukee. I had run against guys using the 13.5 before that & noted how much better they accelerated out of corners(geared more conservatively), & at the Novak race discovered how tall everyone was gearing it. That's also when I decided to try it myself(I already had a GTB in my car, so it was easy to get going with it). And I spent a good deal of time with Charlie Suangka(works for Novak) & Bob Novak (the man himself) learning about it & getting the gearing right for it, & by the end of the event, we were all gearing them INCREDIBLY tall. To give you an idea, before putting one in, I was running brushed stocks there & gearing them around 7.00:1-7.3:1 final drive ratio, but by the end of the event with the 13.5, I had my car geared at about 4.6:1(went from a 104T spur & 33T pinion to an 88T spur & 43T pinion), & my car could accelerate at least as well as any brushed stock, & would just blow past them on the straight(but it was difficult to drive the line I wanted, because of the way the car would keep on rolling, as I think I mentioned before, kept overshooting corner entries, but that was my fault, not the motor's), & Bob even told me he was trying something like a 3.9:1 FDR & said it was still running cool & pulling hard. So yes, I think a lot of guys are probably undergearing them..... :cool:

[ElectricThunder]

Precisely, that's what I learned from the Novak USTC in Milwaukee. I had run against guys using the 13.5 before that & noted how much better they accelerated out of corners(geared more conservatively), & at the Novak race discovered how tall everyone was gearing it. That's also when I decided to try it myself(I already had a GTB in my car, so it was easy to get going with it). And I spent a good deal of time with Charlie Suangka(works for Novak) & Bob Novak (the man himself) learning about it & getting the gearing right for it, & by the end of the event, we were all gearing them INCREDIBLY tall. To give you an idea, before putting one in, I was running brushed stocks there & gearing them around 7.00:1-7.3:1 final drive ratio, but by the end of the event with the 13.5, I had my car geared at about 4.6:1(went from a 104T spur & 33T pinion to an 88T spur & 43T pinion), & my car could accelerate at least as well as any brushed stock, & would just blow past them on the straight(but it was difficult to drive the line I wanted, because of the way the car would keep on rolling, as I think I mentioned before, kept overshooting corner entries, but that was my fault, not the motor's), & Bob even told me he was trying something like a 3.9:1 FDR & said it was still running cool & pulling hard. So yes, I think a lot of guys are probably undergearing them..... :cool:
:huh: How hot did the motor/ESC get geared 4.6:1? That's INSANE! And that was with a sintered rotor? Maybe I should invest in the sintered rotor for my 5800....:D

[JeffEmbracedDC]

Jeeeez.. I've never even heard of a 43t pinion! How would you even fit that in there with an 88t spur?! Hah! That's really interesting. That might be awesome for off-road oval racing :D

-J

[viperx07]

I think hes talkin about a touring car with 64 pitch gears? Cuz for offread I dont think a 43 tooth will fit, or even exists :)

[glassdoctor]

Precisely, that's what I learned from the Novak USTC in Milwaukee. I had run against guys using the 13.5 before that & noted how much better they accelerated out of corners(geared more conservatively), & at the Novak race discovered how tall everyone was gearing it. That's also when I decided to try it myself(I already had a GTB in my car, so it was easy to get going with it). And I spent a good deal of time with Charlie Suangka(works for Novak) & Bob Novak (the man himself) learning about it & getting the gearing right for it, & by the end of the event, we were all gearing them INCREDIBLY tall. To give you an idea, before putting one in, I was running brushed stocks there & gearing them around 7.00:1-7.3:1 final drive ratio, but by the end of the event with the 13.5, I had my car geared at about 4.6:1(went from a 104T spur & 33T pinion to an 88T spur & 43T pinion), & my car could accelerate at least as well as any brushed stock, & would just blow past them on the straight(but it was difficult to drive the line I wanted, because of the way the car would keep on rolling, as I think I mentioned before, kept overshooting corner entries, but that was my fault, not the motor's), & Bob even told me he was trying something like a 3.9:1 FDR & said it was still running cool & pulling hard. So yes, I think a lot of guys are probably undergearing them..... :cool:

Somehow I'm not surprised...... this is what I have suspected. They guys around here running the Novaks in 1/10 trucks just haven't geared them high enough yet.

BUT, my local track is not the only one I've heard of where the word is that a good brushed is still faster... maybe I will have to grab a 13.5 and try it for myself. And I don't race stock... but I could give it a shot :)

[Grizzbob]

I think hes talkin about a touring car with 64 pitch gears? Cuz for offread I dont think a 43 tooth will fit, or even exists :)
Correct, that's 64 pitch gears in my Tamiya TA05(& remember I said I started out with a 104 tooth spur with brushed stocks) And about temps, I did check it a couple of times, & the hottest my motor ever got was about 145 degrees F, which is well within what Charlie & Bob said to watch for(they warned that running it over 170 could be bad, but I think that mostly had to do with the original rotor, they also said the sintered one can handle another 100 degrees above that & as a result, some guys were pulling out the wire that goes to the temp sensor to avoid any chance of thermal shutdown(but I don't really see a need at the temps I saw)..... :cool:

[BobNovak]

Correct, that's 64 pitch gears in my Tamiya TA05(& remember I said I started out with a 104 tooth spur with brushed stocks) And about temps, I did check it a couple of times, & the hottest my motor ever got was about 145 degrees F, which is well within what Charlie & Bob said to watch for(they warned that running it over 170 could be bad, but I think that mostly had to do with the original rotor, they also said the sintered one can handle another 100 degrees above that & as a result, some guys were pulling out the wire that goes to the temp sensor to avoid any chance of thermal shutdown(but I don't really see a need at the temps I saw)..... :cool:
To give you guys an Idea of the comparison between the stock Rubber class and the 13.5 Brushless class just look up the final A main results of the two classes at Scotty's race. If memory serves me right there was only about a four or five second difference between the two classes.
Bob Novak.

[glassdoctor]

Bob... was there any difference in level of drivers in these classes? If it was equal talent in both a mains that's not bad...

If it truely is only the equal of a good strong brushed motor, and not faster... I think it's a good thing for the guys who don't have the motor builder skills or tools and budget to compete at that level in stock class. They get to run a car that can hang with the big boys.

But then you have to decide if removing the motor building/tuning skills from the stock class is a good thing or not... that's where a lot of hardcore stock guys don't like it. They like that part of the "game".

Oh then there's the thing that has me curious about the whole deal... what happens if/when:

1. LRP, Tekin, etc come out with a brushless "stock"? They all can't be exactly the same can they? One will be the fastest...

2. Brushed stocks continue to improve? At some point the 13.5 is no longer competive?

If it's not already done behind closed doors, maybe a sanctioning body needs to impose a cap on how fast stocks can be... and reject any new motors that are "too good". Just some rambling thoughts guys... not trying to open a can-o-anything.

[ElectricThunder]

If it's not already done behind closed doors, maybe a sanctioning body needs to impose a cap on how fast stocks can be... and reject any new motors that are "too good". Just some rambling thoughts guys... not trying to open a can-o-anything.
Maybe they should but tighter limitations on "stock" brushless motors, such as only allowing bonded neo rotors instead of sintered, mandating they be 13.5 or whatever the standard wind may become, and have them run a smaller front bearing vs. the larger ones that the upgraded rotor motors have.

[CRASH3]

The engineers at Castle are in the progress of getting the Mamba esc to run the Novak motors. Look for a software update very soon.

As I have seen so far a great brushed motor is still faster then a brushless, when comparing the 4300 to a 19T and the 13.5 to a stock motor. Time will only tell if this stays true.

Later, :)

[ElectricThunder]

The engineers at Castle are in the progress of getting the Mamba esc to run the Novak motors. Look for a software update very soon.

As I have seen so far a great brushed motor is still faster then a brushless, when comparing the 4300 to a 19T and the 13.5 to a stock motor. Time will only tell if this stays true.

Later, :)
Around when do you think it (the update) will be out?

And secondly...brushed motors still have the advantaged of being able to be tuned and hotrodded. Brushless motors are pretty much fixed (with the exception of timing in the ESC). To my knowledge, there's no real way to tune a brushless motor the way you could a 19 turn spec or 27 turn stocker. You can mess with timing, brushes, spring tension, hood alignment, etc. So I kinda agree with you on that one, but still think brushless, with the right setup/batteries, can out-power either (SS4300 out doing a 19t, and SS13.5 out doing a 27t stocker).

[SpEEdyBL]

I think 19t spec and stock are meant to stay brushed. Part of the challenge of those classes is to see who can tune their motors the best, not just who can drive the best. Of course there could always be a 10.5 or a 13.5 brushless class, but separate from brushed.

[ElectricThunder]

I think 19t spec and stock are meant to stay brushed. Part of the challenge of those classes is to see who can tune their motors the best, not just who can drive the best. Of course there could always be a 10.5 or a 13.5 brushless class, but separate from brushed.
Good point. That'd give insurance to companies like Trinity that brushed technology will stick around for quite some time then.

[CharlieS]

Glass, they were literally the same guys same cars.

The guy whow TQ's Rubber Tire stock was 2nd in BL. I don't remember for sure, but I think his times were about 4-5 seconds apart. His 13.5 Being faster. :)

Lee TQ'd 13.5 and was also extremely competive in Stock rubber class.

Arent' there several brands, types and styles of approved Brushed Stock Motors?? They all race together and no-one gripes??

We hope more BL companies make "stock" 13.5 turn BL motors. I'd love to see more stock BL racing, guys who Run BL all seem to have more time to enjoy things and spread the good word of the hobby. Not complain about the 5$ they put into the motor after they run it. Or perhaps the couple hundred for a lathe.... wait, we've all heard this before. Sorry. I get carried away sometimes.

[nicholcgn]

I think 19t spec and stock are meant to stay brushed. Part of the challenge of those classes is to see who can tune their motors the best, not just who can drive the best. Of course there could always be a 10.5 or a 13.5 brushless class, but separate from brushed.


I disagree. If it was meant for the racer to tune them only then what about people who buy tuned motors? Isn't that against this grand thought? Why is it bad that brushless motors are a little more equal out of the box? Is it different than 2 guys buying a tuned motor from the same second hand tuner?

Also I think that brushless motors will be able to be tuned. Actually to more of an extent then brushed. I see people learning tricks in the can as well as programable esc that you can customize to the track. I actually see this becoming more of a tunable system than any brushed system out there.

[viperx07]

another thing, whats the point of making the 13.5 be their own class. There is no need to separate the classes even more and make even less racers in each class. At my local track all we have is stock and pro stock for 2wd buggies and I dont think there would be anyone in a 13.5 class I mean why would anyone want to buy a specific motor thats not even that much faster if its faster at all just to be in their own class? I think the best thing is to have the 13.5 with the brushed stock class to the people that dont have a motor lathe and dont want to spend 5 bucks on brushes every five runs can still compete.

[Demon-TC3]

Hey all -Sorry to bring back an old thread but just wanted to know, has anyone had any luck running the Novak ss13.5 Pro BL motors on the MM? i have one on the way and am wondering, for Carpet touring, will the thing work out at all?


Cheers.
Demon

[kufman]

I dont' run the 13.5, but I do run the 10.5. It works ok, but not great. I use it for dirt oval, so I am not really worried about a fast takeoff from the line. I have also run it in my TC5 and it is ok. It tends to take off backwards about 1 in 15 tries, but only for about 2 inches and then it figures it all out. I have heard others say that lower turn motors work better because they are not geared as crazy as the 13.5 (usually runing about 5:1 in a sedan). For sedan, you will probably be ok for the qualifying heats (if you do IFMAR style heats) but the start of the main could be ugly.

[Demon-TC3]

HAH - i will warn the people behind me... ok, well the software will hopefully be out to run the novaks in the next few weeks, but in the meantime, lets see what happens.

Oh, once it started moving, how well does it run?

Cheers.
Demon

[kufman]

After it starts moving, it works just like it does with any other motor.

[Demon-TC3]

hey all,

well i got my Novak 13.5 pro motor today, rebuild it, cleaned it all, rewired and ready to go.

So, i wire it up to my MM (dont remember settings) and just gently started to run it no load. started up VERY smoothly with no cogging (again, no load), so far so good.

Then, i applied a small ammount of preassure with my fingers to the shaft to "Simulate" the resistance of the driveline, the motor didnt really Cog, but did need a little more stick to get it turning over, but still very, very smooth!

Then, started reverse throttle (about 50% of a flat pack) and then neutral and throttle, got a very small ammount of Cogging and then it ran fine.

may be a while before i test it on a track, but it seems like the MM, with the right speedo settings would be fine with the Novak 13.5 Pro.

Take care all,
Demon

[ElectricThunder]

Ooooooh. Let us know how it fairs in whatever you put it in. I've been eyeing the 13.5 Pro to run on 3s, and the only ESC I have that can run 3s without having to get an external BEC is my MM. My HV ESC would require a stupid Ubec to run right with the way it's wired now....and I'd rather not spend the extra money if I can get away with what I have at my disposal.

[Demon-TC3]

will do that for sure, although a Ubec cost about 8bucks from UH, i ordered one for my Truggy conversion and it seemed a good price for what it was...


May be a week or so before i post my testings, going to an event this sunday so i wont be testing anything "New" just sorting my gear out :P

Take care all,
Demon

[ElectricThunder]

I decided to hook up my SS5800 w/ sintered rotor to my mamba max. Preliminary testing in my Rustler shows that it's actually pretty smooth; then again, I've only driven it back and forth in my hallway indoors. But I can grab WOT from a dead stop and it doesn't hesitate 9 times out of 10. The one time it did hesitate/cog a little was when I had gone in reverse, kinda stopped, and then grabbed WOT.

I'm going to be using GP3300s assembled in shotgun configuration using an SPT for testing geared 20/87 in my Rustler with road rages. Hopefully I can get some testing done tonight.:D

Edit:

I got two packs through my Rustler before I decided to call it quits (gettin' eaten alive outside by mosquitoes). Anyways, here are my results

-6 cell Gp3300 SPT pack
-Low Start Power
-High Motor Timing
-No Punch Control
-70% reverse
-Cutoff set at 5.4 volts (never even hit it; I stopped early for both packs, but still got about 12 minutes run time out of each pack with consistent performance).

Result: Cogged some if I tried to grab full throttle every so often. I noticed that surface type and condition definitely makes a difference. There'd be a 70% chance that if I grabbed WOT on the smooth asphalt, it'd take off fine. If I did the same on the sidewalk, it'd usually cog. I figured out that rolling up on the throttle helps, even if you just roll up on it maybe the first 10%, and then grab full. Even then, it'd cog sometimes (generally on the higher traction surfaces though).

My second test setup:

-6 cell GP 3300 pack (stick pack configuration, so not as powerful as the previous pack; charged this one at 3.3 amps until it peaked)
-Medium Start Power
-Highest Motor Timing
-No Punch Control
-70% Reverse
-Cutoff Set at 5.4 volts (again, never hit it because I stopped after around 12-15 minutes and still had consistent performance)

Result: Much better on the cogging. It was easier to grab full throttle from a dead stop and the probability of cogging was decreased noticeably. Even on the sidewalk, which is higher traction, I could grab full throttle with a higher success rate. It was much easier to start from a stop on the asphalt as well; much more consistent taking off on the asphalt than before. Rolling on the throttle had a better success also. It was almost like driving with my feigao or 5700. I could still get it to cog if I got overly aggressive on the throttle from a stand still on the higher traction stuff though. After about 5 minutes of driving, I got a better feel for it and launching from a stop improved greatly.

My overall impression; I think that if I could use highest start power and some lipos or IB4200s, it would probably run very very well. Even with my GPs, it ran pretty well anyway. I'm sure the sintered rotor greatly helps with things too; a 13mm tuning rotor would probably decrease cogging even further.

The best part about this setup was the consistent performance and pretty nice runtimes on some older GP3300s (these things have to be at least 2 1/2 years old). The motor came off of a 12-15 minute run the first time at around 135 F. On the second run, it came off at around 140-145 F. Comparatively, my 5700 and 540 8s would come off at least 20-30 degrees hotter after the same amount of time. Then again, the 5800 with its sintered rotor "only" pushed the truck to around 30-33mph, which is plenty for bashing around on the street, and if I took it offroad, I'd probably even gear 2 teeth down! Good stuff though.

[kufman]

You may want to try using a lower motor timing, just for kicks. Leave the starting power on one of the higher settings, but turn the timing down.

[Demon-TC3]

thanks for the review ET - im sure with the correct setting you can get these motors to run pretty much as well as the sensored esc's as long as you got a sintered rotor...



Still, thanks again,

Take care,
Demon

[ElectricThunder]

I used "normal" timing this time out, and it was ok with the cogging. About equal to the second try last night. The motor, of course, ran MUCH cooler after 15 minutes. I'd say it was around 115 F (didn't have my temp gauge with me). The ESC was about ambient temperature, and the batteries were maybe a little above ambient (it's about 80 F right now in this area). I could probably stand to gear up more, but the cogging would probably get worse. Lipo is certainly in the future; these tired ol' GP3300s work fine, but lipo will really get this setup going.

[rowdy]

Hi all,

I (like others) would like any suggestions about which 13.5 motor to run with my Mamba Max ESC (1/10 touring cars on carpet) . I'm the only one at our club with the Mamba Max, these are no where near as popular here in Australia as there the US.

From what I've read the Feigao/Orion 13.5 runs smoother with the Mamba Max but are not as competative as the Novak 13.5. My preference would be the Novak as that is what everyone at my club is using and they seem very fast but I don't want to fork out $ for a new ESC if the MM doesn't run it well.

Anyone with experience with the new Tekin 13.5 motor? This is a sensorless design I think? I don't think Tekin would release a system that is less than competative.

I really like the MM a lot but In hindsight I should have bought a Sensored system to run BL stock as open modified is beyond my skill level.

[Demon-TC3]

Whatever you get, make sure its sintered rotor.

the Novak 13.5 PRO works bar a little cogging occasionally.
i have heard the orion vortex works fairly well because it was designed as a sensored / sensorless motor but have no idea if its true.

i have yet to test my system on a track but from bench testing i can say that i was impressed with it.


Good luck,
Demon

[rowdy]

Thanks for that.

I have requested some info on the Tekin 13.5. To me this seems the best option as it is sensorless. As it is new it will take a while for info to filter through regarding performance and reliability.

[Demon-TC3]

Hey all,
well i finally got the system installed into my car today (FT TC4) - with a Mamba max, Novak 13.5 pro motor and 6 good quality cells.

and im overjoyed to say that it works VERY well - start up is actually very smooth, no low speed cogging, the only difference i see between this and a brushed set up is that occasionally (once every 5 or so starts) the car willgo backwards - maybe less than half an inch for less than half a second and then go perfectly. i only noticed this by REALLY paying attention to the
startup or else its not even noticeable.

Not only does this set up work - but it seems to work well.

Testing has so far been in my bedroom on the floor - but it seems perfect.

Will try it out at the track tomorrow and let you know of the results.


Take care all,
Demon

[kufman]

Hey all,
well i finally got the system installed into my car today (FT TC4) - with a Mamba max, Novak 13.5 pro motor and 6 good quality cells.

and im overjoyed to say that it works VERY well - start up is actually very smooth, no low speed cogging, the only difference i see between this and a brushed set up is that occasionally (once every 5 or so starts) the car willgo backwards - maybe less than half an inch for less than half a second and then go perfectly. i only noticed this by REALLY paying attention to the
startup or else its not even noticeable.

Not only does this set up work - but it seems to work well.

Testing has so far been in my bedroom on the floor - but it seems perfect.

Will try it out at the track tomorrow and let you know of the results.


Take care all,
Demon

Let us know what happens when you get the ratio down around 5:1. This is where there seems to be the most trouble.

[ElectricThunder]

Nice Demon. I'm still waiting for the CC update. I just killed my HV ESC, so if I want to do anything HV with my Novaks, I need to use the mamba now.

[NovakTwo]

Nice Demon. I'm still waiting for the CC update. I just killed my HV ESC, so if I want to do anything HV with my Novaks, I need to use the mamba now.

Why don't you just let us replace your HV?

[ElectricThunder]

Why don't you just let us replace your HV?


Well, if there's going to be a newer model of either the GTB or HV ESC that'll handle higher voltage, I'd rather just wait. It's not of immediate concern. It was my "spare" ESC for all my stuff and it hasn't been used in some time.

I'm going back up to college anyways to finish out the second semester, so I won't have time to deal with anything RC until the summer.:(

How much would an out of warranty replacement cost, and then how much would it cost to upgrade from the HV ESC to a Spread Spectrum GTB?

[NovakTwo]

Well, if there's going to be a newer model of either the GTB or HV ESC that'll handle higher voltage, I'd rather just wait. It's not of immediate concern. It was my "spare" ESC for all my stuff and it hasn't been used in some time.

I'm going back up to college anyways to finish out the second semester, so I won't have time to deal with anything RC until the summer.:(

How much would an out of warranty replacement cost, and then how much would it cost to upgrade from the HV ESC to a Spread Spectrum GTB?

The replacement cost is $65.

Speed Control Replacement Options (http://www.teamnovak.com/cs/web_options/index_esc.html)

[ElectricThunder]

Thanks NovakTwo. I'll sort it out over the summer I suppose.:(

[Demon-TC3]

Hey bud,
I just had a think and i doubt i will ever need to gear it that high...
But, the main difference with my set up compared to everyone else is the fact that 1 - im using an FT TC4 with a VERY smooth driveline and 2 - im running indoor on carpet which is flat.

Now, i have also tried holding the rear shock tower to simulate some resistance (i.e driving up a hill) and to be honest it was still performed Damn well. frankly i dont see in this case how an update to the firmware will make it run much better...

Take care all,
Demon

[kufman]

If you are going to race the 13.5 in stock class, you will be approaching 5:1 to be competitive. You almost have to gear them like silver can motors.

http://www.teamnovak.com/tech_info/brushless/br_gearing.html

[ElectricThunder]

Hey bud,
I just had a think and i doubt i will ever need to gear it that high...
But, the main difference with my set up compared to everyone else is the fact that 1 - im using an FT TC4 with a VERY smooth driveline and 2 - im running indoor on carpet which is flat.

Now, i have also tried holding the rear shock tower to simulate some resistance (i.e driving up a hill) and to be honest it was still performed Damn well. frankly i dont see in this case how an update to the firmware will make it run much better...

Take care all,
Demon


I can. Seeing as how if I were to put my Novak in a vehicle with the mamba, it would be the Rustler. That's definitely not a light RC by any means (though since going lipo it has shed maybe half a pound). Even still, I can get cogging on hard acceleration from a stand still.

I'm just sticking to the CC motor for now. Maybe I'll throw a 9L with a 1/8" shaft in the Rustler, 3s lipo, and be done with it and move on to a new vehicle to mod and tweak.:D

I wonder though....is it possible to kill the windings in the motor so that the performance drops a little bit, but not a whole lot? I'm running the sintered rotor in my SS5800, and it seems a little "off" when I ran it on the lipo and mamba.

[Demon-TC3]

if you damaged the windings the performance would go down - allot.

Just got back from my first brushless outing. 4 heats and a final running stock.
all i can say is - wow. from brushed to brushless i had to go up 6 teeth on the pinion and even then, neither esc, motor or cells where hot. (6 minutes final). my final ratio i was i think near 7.5. car was very fast topping out and had excellent punch. i did get a bit of cogging twice in the entire meeting (less than a seconds worth of stuttering) but that was about it - bearing in mind its a sensorless set up i dont think i really care.

Overall - very impressed, if your running indoor and want a legal brushless motor on the MM the 13.5 pro works very well. Offroad wont be as good im guessing sicne you will have more resistance, but onroad it was a blast.


Take care all,
Demon

[rowdy]

Thanks for posting your results. That is positive. Still, as kufman mentions, I'm wondeing how it will go when you gear it higher. A FDR of 7.5 is about the gearing I would use for a brushed stock motor.

[Demon-TC3]

well i just checked my ratio - with a brushed i was running arround a 9.5 with the brushless in there i was running a 7.12 cogging was no worse with the 7.12 than 9.5 (which i started at).

i intend to go arround 6.8 for the next round (if its not too much overkill for our track) but i dont think it should have any trouble.


All i can say is try it - with the 13.5 PRO it works very well. you can pick em up for abou 70$ from some forums and worse case scenario you wont b able to use it untill the new firmware is out...IF it ever comes out... but regardless of gearing, i dont think cogging will be such an issue that you wont be able to use it. i think in my case the advantages (not skimming motor, motor overheating, changing brushes, worrying about motor getting too hot after racing...) GREATLY overshadow the dissadvantages (mild cogging).


Take care all,
Demon

[Kden46]

Mahalo's Demon for posting up your results!

There is a chance that our small local club will be letting us run the 17.5 BL motor in the near future?(We run in a 60'x60' parking lot track using Tamiya Sport tuned ie Black can motors. The track area is pretty tight so these work o.k. for the space) And having just bought a Mamba Max system for my T4 this has convinced me that it will most likely be o.k. for me to use the MM for TC racing.

We have done testing with the 17.5 and with gearing it works well for our track. Just hoping the change will come sooner rather then later :confused:

[Demon-TC3]

yea just got back from second meeting with the motor and have got to say its still a hell of a set up.
will post a video later on to show how it works out - but with sintered rotor, its deffinately a hell of a set up.


Take care all,
Demon

[burnineyes]

i tried my ss5800 on my mamba max and it wouldnt even start. on the bench it sounded nice, and i was excited. as soon as it hit the ground it spit and sputtered and never moved more than a few feet. it was bad enough i pulled it out immediately.

[Demon-TC3]

really?
what rotor do you have in the 5800?
also, make sure you set it up properly, i will list the settings on my esc later on for refferance and will post the video.

what conditions where u tryin to run in?

Take care,
Demon

[kufman]

i tried my ss5800 on my mamba max and it wouldnt even start. on the bench it sounded nice, and i was excited. as soon as it hit the ground it spit and sputtered and never moved more than a few feet. it was bad enough i pulled it out immediately.

Without the sintered rotor, the max controller cannot startup the roar motors. The stock rotor for the ss5800 is a very weak magnet that essentially reverses it magnetic polarity for an instant when hit with a strong magnetic field. This confuses the sensorless controllers pretty bad.

[Demon-TC3]

I didnt know the sintered rotor played that big a role but, yea that would prob be it :P

Only other thing i would say is to make sure your driveline is very smooth, the easier it is for the motor to pass the first revolution the faster the mamba is able to start working correctly...

i took the vid with a friends phone so im tryin to get it to post on youtube. will let you know when its up.

Take care,
Demon

[ElectricThunder]

So, the sintered rotor seems to be a huge key to success for running these ROAR motors on the mamba. Now....has anyone tried the 13mm tuning rotor? It's .9-1mm larger in diameter than the "regular" sintered rotor. I wonder if that rotor would improve startup and help the mamba receive better feedback (for example, people have reported the vortex motors run awesome on their mambas, and the main difference for those motors is that they have a 14mm sintered rotor instead of a 12.1mm sintered nickel plated rotor).

[Demon-TC3]

Yea i would say im very pleased with the performance im getting, i will say tho -if the resistance is a bit high (i.e a few times my body shell tucked under the rear tires) the car did cog a little much (about a second) and then kicked off - a second may not sound much but under a race where u are doing 8 - 9 second laps...its a fair bit.

i am in the process of getting the vid on youtube - track looks tiny for some reason but, whatever. ok, so on a used battery (after the 6 min final) i did a few more laps - first two laps just to show it works, then start and stop just to show how little it coggs. will let you know when its up.


Take care,
Demon

[Demon-TC3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiqOv03AdeM

Ok, so im behind the stick - pack is slightly worn down.
final ratio was arround 7.6 but cant remember. if you want me to post the MM settings let me know.

(P.S the track looks allot smaller than it is!)

Take care,
Demon

[Kden46]

Looks Good Demon!

Track looks like fun.

I would be interested in your MM settings.
Would be nice to have a point of references to start out with. :D

[kufman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiqOv03AdeM

Ok, so im behind the stick - pack is slightly worn down.
final ratio was arround 7.6 but cant remember. if you want me to post the MM settings let me know.

(P.S the track looks allot smaller than it is!)

Take care,
Demon

WOW!! That is a tiny track! Looks like the startup is pretty darn good with that ratio.

[Demon-TC3]

lol its not actually too bad - when you get a few cars going round its allot of fun. we actually have allot of very good drivers at the club- they claim becuse its small a driver has to work harder to keep everything flowing.


anywhom, i will need to hook the MM back up to the pc at some point to get the numbers out - untill that time, take care all,
Demon

[Demon-TC3]

Ok here are esc settings:

Proportional / wo reverse

Brake - 50%

Punch control - 0%

Start power - high

Timing - high

Drag brake - 0


My cells are good so the settings work well.

P.S in the vid was rinning 10% punch control - not tested with 0 but since my cells come off cold (in fact - everything comes off cold) i want to start pushing it a little harder. next on the change will be highest timing...



Take care,
Demon

[GSMnow]

From what I was seeing from people running the motors with a stator lamination stack, they do seem to want (need) more timing advance and higher start power to make them run. I have been wanting to try it on my Mamba Max XXX-T for a while, but I can't talk anyone into letting me try their motor, and I am a little shy about buying one as a test. Your results are making me a bit more anxious to try it.

[Demon-TC3]

IF its got a sintered rotor in it, go for it bud - you can pick em up cheap from some forums and i doubt it will be so bad its undriveable....


look at the vid, there is practically NO cogging - obviosly not perfect, but frankly, if it means i never have do skim / clean or check for temps GO BRUSHLESS!


lol take care all,
Demon

[Cain]

Looks pretty good. With the new ROAR rules now, Looking into a 13.5 more since next year that will be 19T (this year 10.5 still is).

Would you say the mamba and 13.5 pro combo is a better value than say novaks XBR esc and a 13.5 Pro motor (not the cheapo one)? I like the fact that the XBR does 6V, but I have been quite happy with the robustness of the Mamba.

[GSMnow]

I have run my Mamba Max 5700 system on 5 cell (6.0 volt) and it ran perfectly fine. Smooth starts and excellent torque. I have not idea how it would run at 6 volts on a Novak 13.5 pro motor though.

SORRY, this post got long, I could not help running some numbers...
13.5 BL vs 19 turn brush ??? That seems to be putting the brushless at a disadvantage. The saving grace though is the fatter torque curve that will certainly allow a much taller gear on the brushless, and the greater efficiency that turns more input power into actual power at the wheels instead of into heat. So I will run some math and see if it works out.

The internal resistance of the windings in a 19 turn is actually quite high. I found the ROAR rule that states a minimum of 1170 mm of 19 awg wire making 19 turns on each pole. 19 gauge wire is 4 ohms per 1000 feet. 1170 mm is 46 inches, or just under 4 feet. 46 inches of 19 awg is 0.015 ohms of resistance on each pole. All brush motors are technically delta wound. In a delta wind, you have two poles in series and one pole in parallel at all times. This comes out to a nice round 0.010 ohms of DC resistance. My Mamba Max 5700 measures just 0.0075 ohms for comparison. Novak does not give DC resistance specs on their web site, but they do have power specs. Are these input or output? Their 17.5 is rated at 130 watts and the 13.5 is rated at 195 watts. Using that as input watts at 7.0 volts (a rough estimate of loss form a 7.2 pack), it is at about 18.6 amps on the 17.5 and 28 amps on the 13.5. Even the 28 amps in a 19 turn spec motor would only make 8 watts of heat. That seems very low to me. 540 size motor cans can usually deal with over 20 watts of heat for a 5 minute race. Even going to 40 amps at 0.01 ohms works out to just 16 watts of heat in the armature. I have no idea how to estimate the losses in the brush drag and resistance. In any case, 40 amps in makes a 19 turn take more like 280 watts of input power. Now the fun guess work. The 19 turn makes alot of that power into heat compared to the brushless. Lets say the brushless 13.5 is 85% efficient (guessing, I get 83% on my Mamba Max) so it take 195 watts in and puts out 166 watts. The 19 turn is 50% efficient, but sucking up 280 watts from the battery. It puts out 140 watts at the shaft.

Wow, I guess the math actually does support the 13.5 for 19 turn. The BL could have a 26 watt (over 18%) power advantage, even though it will run 44% longer on the same battery capacity. Brush motors really need to go away. The gearing will be very different. a 13.5 will only turn a little over 23,000 rpm under load. A good 19 turn should rev well past 30,000. My CO27 stocker dyno sheet shows 21,000 rpm at 5.0 volts. That would be over 29,000 at 7 volts, and this is just a 27 turn stocker.

Of course, this is all speculation from a little math and loose data. I actually expected the 19 turn to be more output power than the 13.5, but it didn't work out that way.

[Demon-TC3]

to be honest it wouldnt surprise me - a 13.5 pro us supposed to finish a race hot / warm. ive geared it so i can top out just higher than the brushed guys and everything is coming off at room temp! no really -cells, motor, esc - all of it is comming of cold. thats even after a 2 mins practice, followed by the 10 second brake during set up of the race / countdown - followed by the 5 min race which proceeds the post race bash - another 5 minutes.

After all that, i only put back arround 2000 into my cells, nothing is warm, i got more punch and top end than the brushed stockers and im running the tallest gearing i can find! every time i go up on the gears this thing gets better - i think if i geared it arround 6 FDR this thing would easily stay with the 19's....



as for the XBR's. as far as i know they have allot of resistance -but of course they are sensored. so, in theory they have more torque due to sensored, but less due to resistance. ive now turned off the punch control on the MM so i expect allot more punch, if i do then it will probablyh exceed my friend's set up of an LRP SPhere TC spec and speed passion 13.5 motor. at the moment, he has just that little bit more off the line (prob because my car is 170 grams heavier) but i would say they are fairly evenly matched. having now tweaked my settings some more (i.e punch control is off, timing set to high) the car should hopefully keep up with hin perfectly.


Since i have not tested the XBR i cant say for sure, but it seems like the MM is a hell of a combo!.


Take care all,
Demon

[Cain]

Anyone read the info that is on stormers website about the Tekin R1? I was looking forward to this unit, but it sounds like unless you use a hot motor (more than 10.5) it has cogging issues? I am curious is this with there sensorless 13.5 version too as I am not sure on that.

[GSMnow]

I am really thinking about the Speed Passion GT ESC. It is a bit more money than another Mamba Max, but if it really does what it is advertized to do, it should be the best of both worlds. Smooth sensored startup and low rpm and dynamic timing advance for strong sensorless like high rpm.

I am thinking that Stock class with 17.5 BL, and 19T with 13.5 BL is going to become the race of the ESC's and LiPo batteries. Starting with the lower rpm than the brushed guys is going to change the way you setup. Proper timing control can extend the rpm range, and in a low KV setup like this, that extra .2 volts from the LiPo and the timing advance could mean a lot. Also factor in that the more current you can stuff into the motor, the more gear you can run, and I can already see people disabling the motor thermal sensor to allow more gear in a 5 minute race. Using a Mamba Max ESC will get all the top end you will probably ever get out of these motors, and it doesn't monitor the thermal sensor. Except for the startup it should be at least a match to the speed passion GT.

[timie1]

I'm not chiming in with any advice on running a Novak brushless motor with the Mamba Max because I don't really know. HOWEVER, here is a video I found running a Novak 3.5r on a MM with some high voltage. It seems to run alright!! Don't try the super high voltage at home, kids!!! :D

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wS-1i11mjMw

[Demon-TC3]

the streight is bigger than my track...SUBSTANTIALLY :eek:


lol, yea they do work!


Take care,
Demon

[Demon-TC3]

FINALLY the new firmware is out - supposably makes this esc run silky smooth with any motor, only one way to find out...

will let you know how it changes handling with the sintered rotor.


take care all,
Demon

[Demon-TC3]

Ok just positng an update,
Got back from racin just a few minutes ago after installin the new firmware - i would say cogging was actually about the same (more or less) start up was smoother but cogging was still there. BUT there was more punch - and lots more of it. previously i would struggle to keep up with those running the real sensored esc's, not it has no problem hanging with anyone. the punch and top end is just surreal! unfortunately we didnt have a long streight this week so i hardly ever topped out - would still be spooling up almost to the end of the streight. i couldnt be bothered changing ratio's as it still had tonns of torque.


overall, very impressed!

take care all,
Demon

[burnineyes]

I just got to try the new firmware with my sensored motor. Im running the SS5800, WITHOUT the sintered rotor. With 1.09 firmware it wouldnt even move, just sit there and scream some strange noises at me and buck back and forth. I really thought I was going to burn something up the way it sounded. Anyways, with the new firmware it makes a little noise and bucks one time then takes off! Honestly its about how it was with the 7700 before. Once rolling there is no problem and its silky smooth unless I come to a complete stop again. I am very pleased.

[AE_racer38]

I just got done trying my SS5800 in my T4, with and without the sintered rotor. With the sintered rotor, it makes a bit of noise and gives a slight stutter before taking off. This is with start power on low, and timing at normal. This is also trying to take off slow and crawl it around. When i try to nail it, it just goes. Without the sintered rotor, it gave less noise and was smoother taking off at a crawl than with the sintered rotor. I tried both ways several times so i can confirm my results. I did find that i needed to turn up the brakes slightly, but other than that i am very pleased! I'm not sure i will ever run a Mamba MAx motor on the esc again unless it is high traction mod.

[Demon-TC3]

i think you will probably get better results running medium / high throttle punch on the MM on the novak's.

give it a go.

take care,
Demon

[serpent17]

hello:D i was wondering whats a good motor to use with my mamba max esc... the 5700kv wouldn't stop "cogging" I'm assuming its burned:confused: .

is there a motor i could buy that would be very fast but very reliable I'm looking for something from the price $100-$150 that's my price rang!:D!

can someone help me out i all i need it for is bashing in the parking lot, also maybe for a track I'm planning to go to.


THANXX:)

[Demon-TC3]

what car is it bein used in bud?


take care
Demon

[serpent17]

its going to be a electric tc3, also im running stock stick pack 3600mah sanyo. ive heard my 3600 packs are bad to use with brushless im not sure if thats true.



thanxx for helping!!:)

[serpent17]

what car is it bein used in bud?


take care
Demon
so would you know of a good motor?:confused:

[GSMnow]

serpent17 wrote
"so would you know of a good motor?"

For the TC3? What use? bashing around on the street, or real racing on a track? How big of track? lenght of straights, etc.

The MM5700 is a very good motor and should have no trouble pushing a TC3 to scary speeds. If it is still just stuttering, you have a problem, and it may not be the motor. See if you can have a local hobby shop (LHS) try a motor on your ESC to make sure it is working. It is very hard to cook a MM5700 motor. I over geared mine to crap and got it well over 200F and it still runs like new. I just had to replace the crappy bullet connectors.

For track racing, what are their motor rules? It sure sounds like the SS13.5 Pro is working out quite well. I am thinking about one myself so I can run 19turn (soon to be "super stock" class) as well as mod with my MM5700.

If there are no motor rules, and you just want to fly, most any slotless motor runs well on the Mamba Max ESC. You can get some prettyy cheap Ammo or Feigao motors for just about any speed range. Hacker and Neu motors are really strong as well. How much do you want to spend?

[serpent17]

I'm looking for something from the price $100-$150 that's my price rang!!

WELL THE ESC WORKS FINE WITH MY MOD BRUSH MOTOR ALSO MY STOCK 540 SILVER CAN..


im going to try again to check it out... ive bought the system 3months ago and the first week is was junk!! i havent try sending it in because i dont trust it anymore... im looking for something thats proven to be veerryyy good and fast and reliable.

does towerhobbies have anything good? ive checked and they have good stuff with good deals but i dont know what would work!!any clue on a good motor from there?

[tcolesen]

If you have been getting that cogging since the beginning, my guess would be that the gold connectors between the motor and ESC are bad. This is a problem that many have experienced, and direct soldering the motor wires to the ESC wires has fixed (removing the bad gold connectors).

[serpent17]

If you have been getting that cogging since the beginning, my guess would be that the gold connectors between the motor and ESC are bad. This is a problem that many have experienced, and direct soldering the motor wires to the ESC wires has fixed (removing the bad gold connectors).

YOU THINK I SHOULD TRY THAT?

if i do wouldnt that void the insurence? well i dont care ill follow what you say if it dousnt work ill still be on my search for a new motor to run with the mm esc.

so should i give it a go? cut the connecters and solder?

[chilledoutuk]

if you have bad cogging with the mamba max and a castle cm36 motor then you should definately solder the wires directlty together as that should not cogg at all really.

You wont void the warranty by changing the ends of the motor wires. however you are not meant to solder new wires to the esc pcb as that voids warranty apparently.

[Demon-TC3]

bud you say you have tried the esc with brushed motors and it works fine? then maybe your esc is set to brushed motor set up - link it up to Castle link and make sure its on brushless.


take care,
Demon

[party_wagon]

So guys, your allowed to run a rotor about 1mm larger then the current rotor. This will result in more power. Are there any aftermarket companies that currently produce such a rotor?

[Demon-TC3]

Novak make a 13mm tuning rotor for their motors...

[NovakTwo]

So guys, your allowed to run a rotor about 1mm larger then the current rotor. This will result in more power. Are there any aftermarket companies that currently produce such a rotor?

The new ROAR rules for Stock and Super Stock allow rotors from 12.3 to 12.5mm. The Novak 13mm tuning rotor is not allowed in these spec classes.

[kufman]

The new ROAR rules for Stock and Super Stock allow rotors from 12.3 to 12.5mm. The Novak 13mm tuning rotor is not allowed in these spec classes.


BAH!!! cruddy rule. :D

[chilledoutuk]

BAH!!! cruddy rule. :D

on the surface it does look to be a cruddy rule but think about it the point of stock class is that its meant to be cheap if people have to buy a novak 13.5 and a 13mm tunning rotor to be competitive then that sort of makes the class not much more affordable than a mod class.

[GSMnow]

I hate to say it, but this is certainly one of those places I have to agree with ROAR. They need a very rigid set of rules for a "STOCK" motor so that there is no room for tuning. I think the whole idea is that everyone has about the same power, so the motor is no longer part of the competition. It is supposed to be about chassis setup and more importantly the driving. If one guy can carry a better line and make that double after a turn, he did it with better setup and driving, not by spending a megabuck testing 50 stock motors for another 5 watts of output. With a fixed brushless stock rule, this may actually happen. I really don't care what rule they finalize on, as long as the motor meeting the rules is reasonably priced and the same for everyone. Magnet strength, air gap (rotor size), wire gauge, turns , and total length, should all be fixed. I would have preffered a coreless motor, but even the slotted stator motor is fine, as long as they are all the same. The higher turn counts, but timing limits was a good wat to go as well. Sensored vs sensorless should also be able to make the same maximum power out fo the motor. The power band and feel will be different, but that is a tuning option. And there is now an ESC that gives the best of both, but at almost the price of buying both. Thanks to new firmware, I can't wait to try the new Super Stock (ex 19 turn) 13.5 motor on my Mamba Max to see how it fairs.

[serpent17]

bud you say you have tried the esc with brushed motors and it works fine? then maybe your esc is set to brushed motor set up - link it up to Castle link and make sure its on brushless.


take care,
Demon

hello, thanx for the response well I've bought the MM system four months ago and ill say about a week after the the purchase it was making a "sputter" sound COGGING i was running it my tc3 so i changed the setting to brushed motor. so i had to downgrade to brush witch doesn't compare to brushless!! I've been using brush motors since i got in hobby. so ill never go back to them or i wouldn't want to atleast.

but my original question:

can you tell me what's a good motor i could use with my mamba max esc? I've seen some novak also some others from towerhobbies but I'm not sure if they will work for the mm esc. do you know of motor from towerhobbies that will work really well and reliable?

THANXX

[Demon-TC3]

to be honest im not aware of any motor in the $150 range - they are all betwen $40 and $80. you best bet is to actually pick another CM36 motor up from castle creations - either that or return your system and they will inspect it for ya.


take care,
Demon

[serpent17]

well if i could spend $150 on a motor ill be happy to save money. witch motor will work? bisides castle!!

thanxx man I'm just tryna get rollin again.

[Demon-TC3]

well to be honest, not many people have any problems with the castle motors...


another cheap motor to look into is the Feigao 540S motors. they are about the same size and come in numerouse winds.


take care,
Demon

[chilledoutuk]

i can recommend a hacker c40 brushless motor i have had one for like 5 years still as good as it was new.
The plettenberg extreme works well with the mamba max with the new firmware update.

I like the cm36 motors but they do get quite hot on extended runs not as hot as feigao motors but still quite a bit hotter than the german motors i have.

Technically one of the sensored motors such as a novak velocity or a lrp vector x11 should work quite well with the new firmware.
And i think they are higher quality and more efficient than the feigao or mamba max motors.

[Demon-TC3]

yea - as i was sayin before, i was runnin the 13.5 before the update and it was fine, with the update it is a little better with the 13.5 but im thinking with the lower turn Novak's itl be even better.


Just depends what your doing, if your racing the Novak's are a good choice. if you want to make sure its running as smoothly as possible, the Orion Vortex motors apparently work well - but ive not had problems with my Novak 13.5 pro.


good luck,
Demon

[GSMnow]

Serpent17 wrote:
"can you tell me what's a good motor i could use with my mamba max esc? I've seen some novak also some others from towerhobbies but I'm not sure if they will work for the mm esc. do you know of motor from towerhobbies that will work really well and reliable?"

The Mamba Max ESC and CM36 motors are incredibly reliable. I have beaten the crap out of mine for almost a year of bashing around as well as racing on a track, and the only issue I ever had was withthe crappy gold plated bannan plugs Castle supplied on the motor leads. Before you spend a bunch of money, jump out the connectors. You can direct solder, or replace the connectors and it will not effect your warranty on the Mamba Max ESC or the motor. Just leave at teast 2 inches of wire out of the motor can and from the ESC PC board. I just used Deans Ultra Plugs in place of the bullet and they cured all of my stuttering issues.

For track racing, any of the Novak, LRP, Orion, or Peak motors meat all of the ROAR rules. With the 1.17 firmware, the Mamba Max should run any of them just fine. Might not be quite as smooth at startup, but the reports so far is that they will make all the power without a problem. For bashing a Feigao or great planes AMMO motor is going to be cheap and make good power, but they are also fragile with the end bells just glued in. Virtually any brushless motor will run on the Mamba Max. A KV between 3000 and 6000 is good for most Off Road cars and trucks, depends on gearing range, battery voltage, and required top speed. For a touring car on 5 or 6 cells, some people go as high as 10,000 KV, but the current will be huge. I still have to say, the Mamba Max CM36 motors are a very good balance between cost and quality. I have really thgouhgt about getting a 4600 for tight trcks where I can't gear my 5700 slow enough. The 4600 can also be geared to make insane speed run with a 3S LiPo pack.

[NovakTwo]

Novak has submitted our 10.5, 13.5 and 17.5 SS Pro motors for ROAR approval. All stock motors previously sold by Novak conform to the newly announced ROAR guidelines for Stock/Super Stock. Earlier, in Spring '05, our mod motors were submitted and were approved by ROAR for Modified BL racing.

Customers should check with the other companies selling sensored BL motors to see if their motors comply with the new S/SS guidelines. Many OEM companies have never submitted any motors for approval.

All ROAR approved BL motors must also be rebuildable from components readily available through distribution. Novak has always offered repair and upgrade parts for all motors---the earliest motors (4300 & 5800) can be upgraded to current configurations.

[kufman]

Novak has submitted our 10.5, 13.5 and 17.5 SS Pro motors for ROAR approval. All stock motors previously sold by Novak conform to the newly announced ROAR guidelines for Stock/Super Stock. Earlier, in Spring '05, our mod motors were submitted and were approved by ROAR for Modified BL racing.

Customers should check with the other companies selling sensored BL motors to see if their motors comply with the new S/SS guidelines. Many OEM companies have never submitted any motors for approval.

All ROAR approved BL motors must also be rebuildable from components readily available through distribution. Novak has always offered repair and upgrade parts for all motors---the earliest motors (4300 & 5800) can be upgraded to current configurations.

So will older ss4300 motors with the bonded rotor be taken off the ROAR legal list? Don't they have a 14mm rotor? I know you could buy a sintered upgrade but doesn't that defeat the original purpose of limiting the rotor selection, to reduce price? Kind of funny, we upgrade to sintered making motors more expensive and then we downgrade to smaller rotors to reduce cost caused by choice.

[kufman]

on the surface it does look to be a cruddy rule but think about it the point of stock class is that its meant to be cheap if people have to buy a novak 13.5 and a 13mm tunning rotor to be competitive then that sort of makes the class not much more affordable than a mod class.

I was kind of joking, I don't race anymore so I don't really care. It is just kind of funny since the earlier SS motors used a 14mm rotor. It is just kind of annoying to anyone that likes to run sensorless controllers (which is the topic of this thread). The smaller rotors cause more startup trouble for the sensorless. The sintered rotors helped, but hurt at the same time since they are so much smaller than the bonded rotor they replaced. I ran a 14mm sintered out of another motor in my 10.5 and wow what a difference. Sure there was not RPM to speak of, but start up was great and the torque was nice.

[NovakTwo]

So will older ss4300 motors with the bonded rotor be taken off the ROAR legal list? Don't they have a 14mm rotor? I know you could buy a sintered upgrade but doesn't that defeat the original purpose of limiting the rotor selection, to reduce price? Kind of funny, we upgrade to sintered making motors more expensive and then we downgrade to smaller rotors to reduce cost caused by choice.

If I understand correctly, all earlier Novak motors submitted for ROAR approval were submitted under the initial ROAR rules for modified BL racing. In actuality, no one would race the original bonded rotors now because they could not handle the heat.

When we introduced our 3.5R Velociti motor, it had our newly developed sintered rotor. Bob submitted that motor and ROAR expanded the initial rules to allow the sintered materials. Since then, all Novak Velociti and SS Pro motors have sintered rotors.

Although BL motors with S rotors may cost more initially than B rotors, the rotors---even for Stock/Super Stock racing---will hold up much longer. Therefore, the long term cost for the customer will be much less over the lifetime of the motor. The new ROAR S/SS rules are more restrictive to try to remove the "motor of the month" mentality from the spec classes.

[serpent17]

i can recommend a hacker c40 brushless motor i have had one for like 5 years still as good as it was new.
The plettenberg extreme works well with the mamba max with the new firmware update.

I like the cm36 motors but they do get quite hot on extended runs not as hot as feigao motors but still quite a bit hotter than the german motors i have.

Technically one of the sensored motors such as a novak velocity or a lrp vector x11 should work quite well with the new firmware.
And i think they are higher quality and more efficient than the feigao or mamba max motors.

so those will work!! well i was thinking of getting something from novak, because everything else I've bought through out the years last forever! so I'm thinking there BL motors/system should be good good as well. this is my other problem I'm looking for a motor that towerhobbies sells because i love there service and they eccept my payment option.


i was also looking at the motor called "vantage" also "vertec" I've heard the vantage (from peak ) is really stronge but yes i will look more closer at the novak 3.5. brushless motor.

[GSMnow]

The 3.5 is a seriously powerful motor, BUT... Don't jump right to a 3.5 The rpm is silly high and unless you figured your gearing will work with it, you will most likely just make a ton of heat and have a short run time. That motor is intended for low cell counts in a touring car with small tires.

What is your tire size? How fast do you really need to go? (DON'T BRAG, be real here, I only hit 35 mph on a real track, about 45 is the most I can use street bashing) What is the range of gears you can actually fit, spurs and pinions?

Having a motor that will turn at 70,000 rpm is no use if the fastest you can go is holding the motor down to 45,000 rpm. Going with a tiny 12 tooth pinoin and a huge 90 spur in my XXX-T, it would still try to hit 43 mph on just 6 NiMh cells. And I don't think that gearing would physically fit.

[serpent17]

The 3.5 is a seriously powerful motor, BUT... Don't jump right to a 3.5 The rpm is silly high and unless you figured your gearing will work with it, you will most likely just make a ton of heat and have a short run time. That motor is intended for low cell counts in a touring car with small tires.

What is your tire size? How fast do you really need to go? (DON'T BRAG, be real here, I only hit 35 mph on a real track, about 45 is the most I can use street bashing) What is the range of gears you can actually fit, spurs and pinions?

Having a motor that will turn at 70,000 rpm is no use if the fastest you can go is holding the motor down to 45,000 rpm. Going with a tiny 12 tooth pinoin and a huge 90 spur in my XXX-T, it would still try to hit 43 mph on just 6 NiMh cells. And I don't think that gearing would physically fit.


well the xxxt is a stadium/off road truck (more spinning mass tires) but that's awesome! bet that thing flyes on the straight!

but yeah i will love all the rpm and speed i could get all my onroads are fwd . my tamiya ff01 has 76t spur with a 25 tooth pinion. i could gear the pinion a little lower but not the spur. also my tc3 is custom fwd so there's so spinning out or donuts, my tc3 its stock 72t spur and i have a 31t pinion(just for speed) and that's with mod brush motor. my m03r got 22mph chasing a car.

my serpent cars and other nitros can exceed 45mph but there's no point for that speed since i could only use foam.


my tires are standerd 24mm nothing special but i get good drip.

so what motor should i get?

[SpEEdyBL]

Anything roar legal should be fine (they have more efficient designs than all the coreless motors) as long as it has a sintered rotor. You may also want to make sure it has a bigger front bearing, which will increase bearing life. The novaks all have sintered rotors and bigger front bearings, but what is good about novak is that you can get a 13mm tuning rotor which will lower the kv of the motor slightly and widen your gearing range. I think you would be better off choosing your wind, but I'm certain any 3.5 turn would be good for 50+ mph, any 4.5 turn would be good for 45+ and any 5.5 would be good for 40+ mph all in touring cars of course.

[serpent17]

thanx very much novak ill get:):D


i know this is a brushless thread but, are you onroad also?

[serpent17]

HEY, EVERYONE MY MAMBA MAX WORKS NOW!!! i don't know how! i bought it four months ago and it started cogging very badly. i pulled the motor out the box after months of not useing then pluged it into the esc then pluged to the computer then i seen the 1.17 vers. update got the update retuned the esc to brushless then braek ect....

ran it off the ground ALL GOOD. put it outside ALL GOOD!!! i haven't had one problem (yet) i sont trust it but it works I'm still looking at the novak motor though.

[Demon-TC3]

yea bud your esc and motor is probably fine, my guess is that your connections are a bit off or soemthing.


take care,
Demon

[serpent17]

no everything was connected propper. 15 minutes every night for one week in 50 degree weather running it soft. then the propblem came.

thanx for the trouble shooting though.

[Demon-TC3]

Well i ran my Mamba again tonight with the new firmware and it ramps up allot better now - once its going. to be honest i dont know what has happened but im getting allot more cogging as of late. this meeting i just had i had terrible cogging to the extent the car wouldnt move. what i managed to identify is one of the 3 connections to the motor is getting hot after use which makes me wonder if theres a bad connection?

will soon hardwire or change connectors and let you know hot it works.
take care all
Demon

[serpent17]

hey, there demon seems like your having the same problem like i did but my wires didn't get hot.

>>is seems that each connector was made so the wire could rotate . like they made it were you could rotate the connectet at . (do you know what I'm talkin about?)

the connecters have very good cantact BUT there seems to be ALOT of resistence and the power is surging.

i haven't tryed it but it seems cutting the connecters off, so it could be a straight flow of juice to the motor i like juice lol

[glassdoctor]

You definitely have a bad connector... and with that, it's going to cog no matter what software is in there.

New connectors will fix it for good.

BTW, Castle has the new style gold connectors that are great... hopefully they ditch the old ones and start including the new style in all future products.

Well i ran my Mamba again tonight with the new firmware and it ramps up allot better now - once its going. to be honest i dont know what has happened but im getting allot more cogging as of late. this meeting i just had i had terrible cogging to the extent the car wouldnt move. what i managed to identify is one of the 3 connections to the motor is getting hot after use which makes me wonder if theres a bad connection?

will soon hardwire or change connectors and let you know hot it works.
take care all
Demon

[Demon-TC3]

Cheers glass doc -well the first few times i ran the set up it was fine, no problems at all - in fact, hardly ANY cogging at all. now when i hold the wing and throttle it does nothing but cogg. when its rolling its fine.

what worries me is that they are brand new connections on there. they look perfect...i will replace the one thats getting hot and see what happens.


take care,
Demon

[wmartinlsmith]

hi all, i just put a m max esc with a velociti 5.5 hard wired to the motor.. with trx hc connectors in my tc3.. it was running fine till i lost the diffs. tightened them up and now it stutters.. i think im gonna loosen them a lil to see if that helps the starting.. it was late last nite and no lights on my street = lil play time.. i just peaked my batt this morn and im going to get my tools out of the garage.. ill check back later and share the progress...

and i just updated my esc to the current version too.. maybe that will help. Bill

[GSMnow]

[QUOTE=Demon-TC3;2311100]Cheers glass doc -well the first few times i ran the set up it was fine, no problems at all - in fact, hardly ANY cogging at all. now when i hold the wing and throttle it does nothing but cogg. when its rolling its fine.

what worries me is that they are brand new connections on there. they look perfect...i will replace the one thats getting hot and see what happen./QUOTE]

Which connectors do you have betweeh the ESC and motor? Are they the ones with the gold fingers that can spin free on the center pin? That is what my Mamba Max came with, and they completely suck. All of the current has to be carried by the think fingers, and there are two contact points in series. The pin to the fingers, and the fingers to the sleave. Once the fingers start to get even warm, they loose their spring tension which makes the connection worse, so it gets hotter, which makes it loose more tension..... you get the idea. Once you feel any warmth on the connectors they are already shot. And since the Mamba Max is sensorless, it depends on the tiny back EMF sognals on these same wires to find the rotor position for timing. So the bad connection does not just reduce motor current, it totally messes up the rotor sensing. When my first connector went bad, I would have sworn the ESC was fried. I finally just crimped the bullets together out of desperation, and it worked. I replaced the bullets with Deans Ultra plugs and it seems to make more torque than it ever did with the stock bullets.

[Demon-TC3]

strange thing is, the red and white wires are fine, no heat at all, the white one is getting hot and all connections are new...i just dont get it?

i will try new bullets - these are not the stock MM ones but aftermarket ones.


take care,
Demon

[Demon-TC3]

well, before i trashed the bullets alltogether i decided to try directly soldering the female bullets onto the 13.5 solder tabs so i have less wires dangling arround - well, still no good. the bullets get very hot for some reason and at the end of the race they are so hot that the car cant start rolling (due to resistance i guess).

at the start of the race - perfect, at the end -not so good.


so, im gona re-wire my MM with some 12Awg wire and also either direct solder or get some deans on there...or somehting allong those lines.

take care,
Demon

[Mister-T]

well, before i trashed the bullets alltogether i decided to try directly soldering the female bullets onto the 13.5 solder tabs so i have less wires dangling arround - well, still no good. the bullets get very hot for some reason and at the end of the race they are so hot that the car cant start rolling (due to resistance i guess).

at the start of the race - perfect, at the end -not so good.


so, im gona re-wire my MM with some 12Awg wire and also either direct solder or get some deans on there...or somehting allong those lines.

take care,
Demon

Rewiring is great solution, it did work great for a mate
http://capelle.freebox.free.fr/MCCD-03-02-2008/CIMG1073.JPG

[Cain]

Rewiring is great solution, it did work great for a mate
http://capelle.freebox.free.fr/MCCD-03-02-2008/CIMG1073.JPG

How is your buddies setup working out for him? Also, what did he gain with using the really big cap?

[GSMnow]

DemonTC3 wrote:
<<well, before i trashed the bullets alltogether i decided to try directly soldering the female bullets onto the 13.5 solder tabs so i have less wires dangling arround - well, still no good. the bullets get very hot for some reason and at the end of the race they are so hot that the car cant start rolling (due to resistance i guess).>>

If you soldered the wire onto the metal sleave for the bullet, and it still got hot, then it must have a bad connection where the wire connects tot he sleave at the other end. A properly soldered connection should not make any heat at all. The wire should run warmer than a soldered joint as it has all of the wire and the solder are to carry the current. Connecting to just one small point far down the sleave coiuld add a little resistance as the wall is not very thick like a Deans Ultra pin, but even then, it should never get hot, mearly warm is all.

I ran my LiPo's in 2S2P for a 6000 mAh pack with a constant current rating of 120 amps, and I did end up burning one of the battery lead wires off of the Mamba Max ESC circuit board. It turned out that the wire was maybe 1/3 to 1/3 broken strands due to the flex concentrated right where the solder stopped wicking into the wires. The remainder of the wire burned out like a fuse and the car just stopped after 18 minutes of very hard driving. Turned out I had quite a bit of battery left, but I still don't have an exact run time with the 6000 in the truck yet. Since the length of briken wire was so short, the total resistance didn't really hurt the performance, but it concentrated all of the heat from the wire loss in a tiny spot. If you wiggle the wires wherer the leave the ESC PC board, you can easilly feel where the solder ends. After it quit running, I tugged on the wire, and 1/4 inch of #13 pulled right out the end of the insullation, still firmly connected to the board.

Any connection making heat is BAD and needs to be fixed right away. I will check mine much more often now. Luckilly this happened to me in the practice beforre the race. I was able to solder it back before my first qualifier.

[GSMnow]

For Super Stock (aka 19 turn) I have my eye on the Team Orion 13.5 to use on my Mamba Max ESC. Anyone have a comparison with it to the Novak 13.5? When is ROAR going to update the legal motor list? All these sensored motors have come out "built to ROAR rules" but none of them are on the approved list yet.I may just end up with the Novak, but it is coming in from $10 to $20 more everywhere I look. I can get any Mamba Max motor (and many others) for a whole lot less. Having the ROAR stamp seems like an invite to gouge the customer.

[Demon-TC3]

well i dont know what it is tbh - the connections come off hot enough to burn you so its VERY confusing. they look perfect i have even blasted them with motor spray and made sure they are good..really wierd.


anywho - for 19 turn go for the 10.5, it will be legal - motors are homolegated - esc's are not (or shouldnt be) so its up to you.


take care,
Demon

[GSMnow]

If the connectors are getting that hot, you have a seious resistance issue. My deans plugs between the ESC and motor run stone cold. I had alot of bad issues with the bullets though. They had to go after just 2 or 3 race days when it would stutter trying to start. I peeled back the shrink wrap and just de-soldered them and put the deans right in their place, so I didn't shorten the wires at all. I could have, but chose not too. Try holding the connector and pulling on the wire. I just hade a failure 2 weeks ago when the red bat wire into the ESC let go. It actually was broken about 1/2 way through, and then burned off the rest about 1/4 of an inch up inside the wire insulation. It looked like it was connected fine, but it would come on and off when I wiggled the wires, when I gave it a pull, the came right off. 1/4 inch of bare wire sticking up ,and 1/4 inch of red insulation with no wire inside of it. Maybe your wire is doing the same thing behind the bullet connector.

As for ROAR, the 10.5 is legal for 19 turn this year, but they have already said that it will likely change to the 13.5 turn as the minimum wind next year. I would hate to buy a motor I can only race for one year. I have too much power now, I think I will drive better with the reduced grunt. But I do want to get a good 13.5 The Novak with the sintered rotor is a good motor, but is the considerably cheaper Orion Vortex 13.5 as good?? I also seem to remeber people saying the Vortex motors run better on the Mamba Max, but that was under the old firmware.

[Demon-TC3]

really? the Vortex is cheaper?

i was after a Vortex before the 13.5 and they wher eall at least 80$ used - the 13.5 i got for 60!


ah well, i will probably direct solder some 12Awg wire and see hot it goes.


take care for now,
Demon

[serpent17]

hey, how's it going everyone well i got the problem back right ofter i posted on here that everything was good BUT nope i got it back SO..


i cut the commentors off and the only thing between the motor and the esc is nothing. it runs really well know it has more torq also more runtime (i think so) so I'm telling everyone who has a very bad cogging problem just to switch to deans (if you switch kv time to time) or to run them direct.

also since i got better performence I've added a bigger pinion and now my tc3 is flying=)

when i first got this system(BL) i thought was cheap cr*p for $210! but you could really cure it for good if you lose those bananna connectors or go deans.