nitro rock crawler

[joshy1991]

hi can you make nitro rock carwlers.? and also what nitro car could i use .

[tq_racing]

Nitros can not crawle (at least not very well) you would need to gear so low and the motor would get VERY hot.

I have not yet seen a nitro crawler, and the first post in the General Crawler section at RCCrawler says "Nitros can not crawle"

TQ

[RCMadMatt]

Steve Slayden built a Revo with the Long-Travel suspension that crawled pretty well for a nitro. It can be done, just not as easily as an electric. Not nearly as easy.

Matt

[savage100]

That revo was a total rush crawler also. Not true rock crawling. It just kinda jumped over all the rocks. I guess on some it didn't though. Nitros will overheat and you can't go into water with them like you could with a waterproof electric. They just won't do good.

[CyberManiaK]

I have a Clod Crawler and a Revo with OS .18/TM and from my experience Nitro can't crawl. Just think about this. Electric motors have Instant torque that should traduce on little throttle to pass over a rock with a touch of style. Nitro Engines have a high RPM Range that should traduce on half throttle to pass over the same rock but bouncing all over the place ending with a jump :)

[thareelcauz]

I tried to build up a revo-ish crawler, and while it crawled surprisingly well, it overheated after about 5 min. There just isnt enough air flow to keep it cool when its moving so slow. It might work if there was a high flow fan cooling the head......

[ericem]

LST1 is a perfect crawler, you can easily add 4 wheel steer, has ALOT of suspension travel, and low gear!!!! and i don't understand why you guys think it will overheat, if the engine can rev without stress, it SHOULD NOT overheat, thats what the cooling head is for, i monitored temps rock crawling, i hold 200F. Also i would suggest 1.1 springs and aluminum clutch shoes, other then that should be just fine! low gear is fitted, and reverse so your good to go pretty much.

Keep in mind with the LST2, and AFT, you need to change the side rails, because the wholes for the bellcrank are not there, and with the lst2 you need front end spindles, and c hubs.

You cna get a LST1 on ebay for pretty cheap.

[jamesbernatchez]

Eric- LST is not a perfect crawler.....far from it. Give me a tlt and some other stuff and ill build a crawler that can out crawl your nitro for cheaper than your truck stock cost you. Can you make a nitro actually crawl? I say no!

Would you want to try...probably not IMO. I would put up ANY of my electric crawling rigs that I have had against a nitro rig and would pretty much guarentee that I will out crawl you. The electric crawler will have a lot more instant low end torque, lower center of gravity, longer run time, more flex(solid axle vs. independant suspension setup),drag braking abiliity, be able to climb steeper inclines, etc. etc.

Not to mention enjoy burning up your clutch shoes and getting oily residue all over the rocks your trying to get up :D

Id say a nitro can "rock hop"....but not crawl. Stick with electric for crawling and youll have more fun. Trying to build a nitro crawler....its stupid IMO.

:wave:

[tq_racing]

Could not have said it better myself.

Eric- LST is not a perfect crawler.....far from it. Give me a tlt and some other stuff and ill build a crawler that can out crawl your nitro for cheaper than your truck stock cost you. Can you make a nitro actually crawl? I say no!

Would you want to try...probably not IMO. I would put up ANY of my electric crawling rigs that I have had against a nitro rig and would pretty much guarentee that I will out crawl you. The electric crawler will have a lot more instant low end torque, lower center of gravity, longer run time, more flex(solid axle vs. independant suspension setup),drag braking abiliity, be able to climb steeper inclines, etc. etc.

Not to mention enjoy burning up your clutch shoes and getting oily residue all over the rocks your trying to get up :D

Id say a nitro can "rock hop"....but not crawl. Stick with electric for crawling and youll have more fun. Trying to build a nitro crawler....its stupid IMO.

:wave:

[RCMadMatt]

Eric- LST is not a perfect crawler.....far from it.
I think he meant as far as nitros are concerned. Not against an electric.

Matt

[savage100]

if the engine can rev without stress, it SHOULD NOT overheat, thats what the cooling head is for,
But you realize that rock crawling creates stress? If you get your tire stuck in a bad place, an electric can usually pull it right out with enough torque. But with a nitro engine, it would keep reving and not really do anything. There is lots of stress in rock crawling. How do you think people break their axles and driveshafts? And i would rather drive a nylint than a nitro crawler. A nylint is probably more capable.

[jamesbernatchez]

^

A nylint probably is more capable than a nitro. Way more torque and a lower gear. When i had mine I thought it was pretty nice for the price($40) but once I started building "real" crawlers i came to find out its just a decent crawler for somebody just looking to dable in this sport. With a few mods though they are pretty capable.

[savage100]

Yeah, they just can't be compared to a "real" crawler can they. Also, IMO, crawlers can't be baught, they have to be made. Even though you buy the parts, you can't really get a true crawler in a rtr version. Although if you modded the nylint, it is kinka like a half true crawler i guess. :)

[ericem]

I think he meant as far as nitros are concerned. Not against an electric.

Matt

ya, sorry, lol i thought everyone would understand since the thread said nitro rock crawler.

I understand a electric can have more torque, because there is no clutch, but if you have it geared really low on first gear, and put it in low speed, im sure it can crawl easily, just JB the front and rear diff. I won't be the first to test this, because a crawler SHOULD be a electric in rc. But real crawlers are not electric, but they have a real clutch, that they can be engadged but those still rev up but they use a VERY low gear, and it works.

[Mini-TBasher55]

^

A nylint probably is more capable than a nitro. Way more torque and a lower gear. When i had mine I thought it was pretty nice for the price($40) but once I started building "real" crawlers i came to find out its just a decent crawler for somebody just looking to dable in this sport. With a few mods though they are pretty capable.

Yup, the average scaler would put up a big fight against a nitro.

A while ago in RC Monster Trucks, Kevin built a Revo Crawler while everyone else made Clods and TLTs. Personally, I thought it was beyond stupid. Nitros aren't great crawlers, especially when compared to electrics. Maybe a sold axle truck like a nitro converted TLT/TXT or Kyosho MadForce would do ok. Not amazing though.

[seanmanibog]

XTM X-Factor???

[Mini-TBasher55]

XTM X-Factor???

I am not familiar with such a truck, but I think I may have heard of it. Link, please?

[seanmanibog]

http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/145642.asp

[savage100]

The fact is that it is still nitro. It is the engine and stuff of nitros that make them bad crawlers, not the design. The nitro engines just can't crawl. They were made for going fast, not slow like in crawling.

[crazy4wdracer]

that looks like a crawler :D

[ericem]

I wonder how a 4 stroke nitro would be? Like i said, if it is geared properly i am sure it can make a great crawler.

[savage100]

I wonder how a 4 stroke nitro would be? Like i said, if it is geared properly i am sure it can make a great crawler.
It might be better, but i doubt that a truck with an engine could out crawl an electric.

[seanmanibog]

how is it that u me and eric end up in fights lol

[savage100]

this is a fight? oh, maybe im just slow from my mountain dew but this is not a big one. At least i dont think so. :D

[seanmanibog]

well, lemme re-fraise that and say "Arguments" lol.

[savage100]

Oh, then i guess i'm not slow from my mountain dew. Good. :)

[seanmanibog]

ohh no trust me i drink tons of mountain dew.... the only side effect ive ever heard of is loss of sperm... lol.

[ericem]

Has anyone actually proved a nitro can NOT be a good crawler?

[CyberManiaK]

Has anyone actually proved a nitro can NOT be a good crawler?

Anyone with both type of rig's would be smart enough to see by itself that nitros can't be good crawlers :rolleyes:

[ericem]

Anyone with both type of rig's would be smart enough to see by itself that nitros can't be good crawlers :rolleyes:

everyone says that because of the clutch, but has anyone went full out on building a 4 stroke nitro crawler?? And tried gearng it REALLY LOW, and using a special kind of clutch? No, is what im guessing, and no one went full out on building a LST1 crawler, people just tried it stock, and ti worked, just like me.

[joshy1991]

now now no fighting

[savage100]

Has anyone actually proved a nitro can NOT be a good crawler?
I have. I have a t-maxx and tried it. It sucked. I own a sw2 crawler as well and it is so much better.

[thareelcauz]

Has anyone actually proved a nitro can NOT be a good crawler?

I have proven it, its not the platforms that make them bad crawlers, its the fact that they are air cooled, always running with the throttle up to keep the clutch engaged, traveling at 1 or 2mph and getting no airflow to cool it down. 1:1 rigs can do it because they are water cooled. Nitro engines just cant run under load, with no airflow, for prolong periods of time without overheating.

[ericem]

I have proven it, its not the platforms that make them bad crawlers, its the fact that they are air cooled, always running with the throttle up to keep the clutch engaged, traveling at 1 or 2mph and getting no airflow to cool it down. 1:1 rigs can do it because they are water cooled. Nitro engines just cant run under load, with no airflow, for prolong periods of time without overheating.

i am well aware of that, you acn just wire up a 6v DC computer fan, which runs on barely any power, i still think, if i used a proper crawler frame, and suspension, it would work just fine.

[seanmanibog]

:flame:

[CyberManiaK]

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/cybermaniak/ntsa.jpg

[jamesbernatchez]

^ Exactly what I was thinking...i thought my post was the end of it :D

[RCMadMatt]

^^^That will probably get you a warning or suspension from the mods here! You might want to remove it before then! Just an observation!

Matt

[ericem]

But the idea of the thread was using a nitro in a crawler, all i see is electric is better, but i don't see a crawler that used a nitro engine. i understand there are other nitro cars, but still a proper crawler chassis would be alot better.

[shadowghost1]

i am well aware of that, you acn just wire up a 6v DC computer fan, which runs on barely any power, i still think, if i used a proper crawler frame, and suspension, it would work just fine.
No it will not. This topic has been beat with a stick over the past three years. How many nitros do you see at any of the major events? How many nitro crawlers have been covered in magazines? People get confused when they think of real scale crawlers and nitro rc, its a total different motor set up. They think well the real ones run off of gas so a nitro rc must work...wrong. I have tried to many times with Tmaxx, X factors and so on and they are fun for slow, very small grade crawling and hill climbing but they cannot handle the the rocks. The RPM kills them everytime. For rock crawling a constant slow movement is needed, and someone said it best when they called it rock hopping when refering to nitro crawler. They suck! Do not take this post as a flame on you personally because I have been crawling in real trucks and rc before alot of you readers were born, just trust me when I say they dont work. You can try for yourself and please prove us all wrong if you can.

[ericem]

i should eh, hmm. let me do some real crawling with my LST, i understand electrics are MUCH better in RC its UNDERSTOOD jeese. What im saying is it will be VERY possible to rock crawl with a nitro, and make it good. Once i get my job, i will do a few cheap experiments with my LST ok.

[jamesbernatchez]

What your not understanding is the center of gravity would be way to high.

Example:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j98/jamesbernatchez/Comp%20Rigs/IMG_0125.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j98/jamesbernatchez/Comp%20Rigs/IMG_0122.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j98/jamesbernatchez/Comp%20Rigs/IMG_0134.jpg

The one on the left is my only rig right now. Notice how all the weight is over the front axle and is very low. The SW2 on the right side performed well but had a tendancy to flip on very steep inclines or off camber sections. I could have lowered the esc but the other rig would still have outperformed it. With nitro the fuel tank, receiver pack, and engine are all very high and give the truck a higher center of gravity. Even if you designed a clutch to work well it would still be outclassed by electric and probably cost alot more to design.

Check out a few pics from our local crawling spot:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j98/jamesbernatchez/Branford%20Point/20061230_451.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j98/jamesbernatchez/Branford%20Point/20061230_431.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j98/jamesbernatchez/Branford%20Point/IMG_0030.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j98/jamesbernatchez/Branford%20Point/IMG_0029.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j98/jamesbernatchez/Branford%20Point/IMG_0012.jpg

It would be very very hard to get a nitro crawler to get up most of the stuff in these pics....it would need to go so slow and stop constantly without rolling.

Crawling is just that....CRAWLING SLOWLY! Its about deliberatly planning where to put your tires and thinking about the easiest and fastest way over an obstacle. Its not about going up to the obstacle and gunning it to hop over it...thats not crawling thats jumping.

i should eh, hmm. let me do some real crawling with my LST, i understand electrics are MUCH better in RC its UNDERSTOOD jeese. What im saying is it will be VERY possible to rock crawl with a nitro, and make it good. Once i get my job, i will do a few cheap experiments with my LST ok.


Eric- Real crawling with your LST? Thats just not going to happen. I just dont think your understanding it. Its not very possible to make a nitro rock crawler. If it was somebody would have done it and more would have followed. Thats like me putting a lathe motor in a stadium truck and trying to race it in the stadium truck modified class......pointless. You make a nitro crawler that can crawl as well as my rig...ill give you mad props...

Problem is it will never happen :teacher:

[ericem]

Nice rides you have there, ya i see what your saying, i could mount the engine on its side though. The 3rd pic crawler must crawl pretty easily. WEll if anything the chassis would need to be more or less like the last pic. And the smallest tranny i could fit would be a, not a tranny :D id use a center diff lock it, mount the engine beside it on its side(i am confident it can run on its side no problem) and then mount a buggy fuel cell in the front and put the 5cell pack in the front. Then the only thing i would need to cover is(if i find a good solid axle, and frame design, and driveshafts and machine shop) i need to create the clutch so it can engadge very easily and hold it, but still the problem is it needs to slip somewhat, i could put indents in the clutch bell, in one spot, so it can't slip past the point. Once locked in. Then i need to worry about cooling it, but id just mount a small 6v dc fan.

I know im not there quite yet. I feel like just building a electric crawler now :p

PS: ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!!!

[savage100]

Not really. We can't jump off the empire state bridge with nothing but our clothes onto the cement and live can we? And it would take lots of money to get a good base for a nitro crawler. But the fact is, that the engine is not going to work for crawling. Just the design of it. If you wanted to make a whole new engine and a really neat design that could work, then maybe.

[ericem]

Not really. We can't jump off the empire state bridge with nothing but our clothes onto the cement and live can we? And it would take lots of money to get a good base for a nitro crawler. But the fact is, that the engine is not going to work for crawling. Just the design of it. If you wanted to make a whole new engine and a really neat design that could work, then maybe.

4 stroke engine, makes low rpm's and gives ALOT of torque.

and yes we can jump off it, just we need a parchute :p

[Mini-TBasher55]

4 stroke engine, makes low rpm's and gives ALOT of torque.

and yes we can jump off it, just we need a parchute :p

Pffft, thats Canadian's for yuh.







*Kidding, juuuussst kidding :D :wave: *

[ericem]

Pffft, thats Canadian's for yuh.







*Kidding, juuuussst kidding :D :wave: *

pfft american's thinking nothing is possible :p



*Kidding, juuuussst kidding :D :wave: *

[Mini-TBasher55]

I've been owned :(

[savage100]

Ope, we can't survive without water or food in the vacuum of space can we? And no space gear.







Or a parachute. :D

[ericem]

Sure you can,use the moisture on mars, and bring a oxygen tank. See, and a parchute is a waste, because there is no gravity, so who cares? What we need to know is how to swim. See im all ready :D

wait though mini-t what do you mean by thats canadian's for ya? needing a parchute? I didn't know canadians need a parachute a necessity just to reduce the affects of gravity thats all. sheesh. :D

[RCMadMatt]

Yes, electrics rule as far as crawlers go, we all understand that. But by saying that it's impossible for a nitro to crawl limits your thinking. If nobody pushes the limits as far as what's possible, we'd probably still be wearing loincloths and getting women with wooden clubs. A bit drastic, but it works.

Matt

[shadowghost1]

Yes, electrics rule as far as crawlers go, we all understand that. But by saying that it's impossible for a nitro to crawl limits your thinking. If nobody pushes the limits as far as what's possible, we'd probably still be wearing loincloths and getting women with wooden clubs. A bit drastic, but it works.

Matt
Matt, It will work if the Motor Manufactures made a motor designed for low rpm driving. You could change the clutch and gearing out to have "fun crawler" but it still would not match up to a electric crawler. The motor design is what is holding the project back from being successful. Example: Savage 4.6 turns at 35000 rpm to produce 2.9 hp= too high strung for low speed high torque manuvers.
Also since when did we stop wearing loin cloths and using wooden clubs?

[ericem]

Matt, It will work if the Motor Manufactures made a motor designed for low rpm driving. You could change the clutch and gearing out to have "fun crawler" but it still would not match up to a electric crawler. The motor design is what is holding the project back from being successful. Example: Savage 4.6 turns at 35000 rpm to produce 2.9 hp= too high strung for low speed high torque manuvers.
Also since when did we stop wearing loin cloths and using wooden clubs?

heli engine....... Slipper clutch.....

[shadowghost1]

If it worked then we wouldnt be having this disscussion right now.

[ericem]

If it worked then we wouldnt be having this disscussion right now.

im sure we can make it work, but no one got really INTO the idea. I tried crawling at a small park, it was like mixed rocks and grass, i put my truck in low gear, and i used my super soft springs, and i made it up, just went slow. I don't understand what is so difficult :huh:

PS: ill get a video, when i got up to my cousins, he has a great spot i can crawl, and ill see if it can do it well.

[shadowghost1]

When you said "You do not see whats so difficult" were you meaning crawling in general or the nitro rc crawling concept? You do not have to show me a video, I can believe you ran over grass and mixed rocks.

[ericem]

When you said "You do not see whats so difficult" were you meaning crawling in general or the nitro rc crawling concept? You do not have to show me a video, I can believe you ran over grass and mixed rocks.

ok fine. and i meant nitro crawling in general, i understand i did not do anything serious though, but it seems very possible.

[RCMadMatt]

Why the argument against a nitro crawler? If people started experimenting with them, who knows what advances could be made. Look at where electric crawlers started, and where they are now as far as batteries, motors, chassis designs, etc. If some more forward thinking people got into trying nitro crawling, the results could be very interesting (Water cooling, some kind of torque convertor or clutch that could hold in that harsh environment). A real nitro crawler would be very cool!

Matt

[savage100]

You got to believe me when i say this. Many people, including me, have tried and if they would have come out on top of the electrics, then there would be no electrics. It's not like people thought nitro wouldn't work and then not try it. I would be willing to bet that some have even gotten an electric crawler and then made it nitro. But it didn't work did it? Otherwise they would be a whole lot more popular and the guys crawling at the nationals and those comps would have them. They have some of the best crawlers out there and they are electric. I bet some of them have even tried a nitro and went back to electric because they could not match the performance. And maybe a nitro could crawl over some little rocks and what not, but why spend all the money when electrics are better?

[RCMadMatt]

And why did your nitro crawler attempt fail? Clutch, overheating, both? I'm not looking to start any kind of flame war, just want to see why a nitro can't crawl. I have a Venom Mini-Giant that I converted to crawl, and it's great, but I am curious as to the specific failures of a nitro crawler setup. Like I said before, a nitro crawler would be cool.

Matt

[savage100]

And why did your nitro crawler attempt fail? Clutch, overheating, both? I'm not looking to start any kind of flame war, just want to see why a nitro can't crawl. I have a Venom Mini-Giant that I converted to crawl, and it's great, but I am curious as to the specific failures of a nitro crawler setup. Like I said before, a nitro crawler would be cool.

Matt
First off, if anyone thinks i'm starting a fight, that is not my intentions here. But anyways, it wasn't a "true" crawl. It went over the section in about 1/5 the time of my electric crawler. It jumped over everything and is not what most people would consider crawling. Second, if you get stuck a little, and you give it throttle, when you get out, it is going flying out of there and is half way down the trail. I didn't have a problem with overheating i think. (i didn't have a temp gun) but it was running a bit hotter than normal but not really overheating. But i dont have a true explanation why it didn't do good. It is just not real crawling. Yes, it could go over rocks on flat ground, but when you get on a little hill, forget it. It just flipps right over onto the lid. I don't think their is a way to explain it. But once you have driven a nitro and tried to crawl it and an electric crawler, you will see what i'm talking about in an instant. And i do think it would be awesome to get a real nitro crawler like the full sized trucks, but i don't see it being possible with any of the engines that we get now. Either 2 or 4 strokes, car, boat, or plane. There has to be a totally different design.

[RCMadMatt]

It's all good! If I understand what you're saying is that a nitro crawler doesn't have the "touch" needed to do the really slow crawl well, right? Prolly the whole nitro powerband thing, I guess. What we need is a liquid cooled ohv/ohc 4 stroke that would fit in a current crawler chassis, or a new style chassis to accomodate it, with some form of automatic transmission or a different design for a clutch. I agree it would take a lot of rethink to make it happen, but isn't innovation the backbone of this hobby?

Matt

[ericem]

Hmm, i think the torque converter idea is great! but torque converter on a nitro? I don't recall ever seeing one, and i think it needs to be electronic. You can adjust a clutch to kick in much much later too, but its kind of hard on it. I would think using the slipper clutch would be my best bet.

[savage100]

Anyone remember that 1/3 scale ferarri video on here a little while back? All we need to do is that to a jeep and lift it. Then hook servos up to the pedals. Then it should crawl. :D But then i guess, if it was an exact replica, it wouldn't be nitro, it would run on gasoline. Still, that would be awesome.

[ericem]

Anyone remember that 1/3 scale ferarri video on here a little while back? All we need to do is that to a jeep and lift it. Then hook servos up to the pedals. Then it should crawl. :D But then i guess, if it was an exact replica, it wouldn't be nitro, it would run on gasoline. Still, that would be awesome.

ya i remember that! why can't we use those gasoline engines??? It was tiny! but i would prefer a subaru boxer engine design instead, would be better balanced and smaller.

[RCMadMatt]

I wonder if there is a way to design a clutch that can either be manually controlled to lock and unlock, or like ericem said, an electronic one? Maybe set it up with a mixing function like on a heli? I think that is probably the major sticking point with a nitro crawler.

Matt

[savage100]

Good luck to all you who think you can get it to work, because i'm sure not going to try it.

[ericem]

I wonder if there is a way to design a clutch that can either be manually controlled to lock and unlock, or like ericem said, an electronic one? Maybe set it up with a mixing function like on a heli? I think that is probably the major sticking point with a nitro crawler.

Matt

well, thats how a torque converter works i think. Why can't the clutch engadge more like a full scale car?

[500swmag]

A torque converter in a car works on hydrodynamics. Very simplified, a hub with fins (similar looking to a turbine) sits inside a hollow case lined with fins and filled with fluid. When the outer case spins fast enough (from the engine turning it) the inner hub begins to spin once it reaches converter stall rpm (the speed at which the fins generate enough lift, similiar to the wing of a plane) which then turns the input shaft of the transmission.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/481957.jpg

Wasn’t the XTM X-Factor 2 Monster Truck supposed to fill the niche of nitro crawling? Anybody have any experience with it? Have they done anything about cooling the engine with a fan?

[jamesbernatchez]

Good luck to all you who think you can get it to work, because i'm sure not going to try it.


Me neither...



I'll stick with my eletric crawler anytime! I will crawl with anybody who has a nitro crawler...cause when you see that a nitro cannot crawl anywhere near what an electric can you will go and build an e crawler.

Ive made some points in one of my first posts in this thread...feel free to read up on it.

[RCMadMatt]

Me neither...



I'll stick with my eletric crawler anytime! I will crawl with anybody who has a nitro crawler...cause when you see that a nitro cannot crawl anywhere near what an electric can you will go and build an e crawler.

Ive made some points in one of my first posts in this thread...feel free to read up on it.
Please stop trying to naysay what we are discussing. Everyone is very aware of the limitations of a nitro crawler compared to an electric, and that a couple of people here aren't going to build them, or attempt to. Whatever. Maybe by talking about what is needed to make an idea work, someone will put their skills to the task and just do it.
A nitro will require some form of torque convertor, lower gearing, perhaps a new chassis design to make it work.
It seems funny that a nitro cannot be made to crawl considering that 1:1 crawlers are all gas. Yes, I realize nitro crawlers are impractical, but with some innovation, the limitations could be overcome, and a competent nitro crawler can be built.

Matt

[savage100]

It seems funny that a nitro cannot be made to crawl considering that 1:1 crawlers are all gas. Yes, I realize nitro crawlers are impractical, but with some innovation, the limitations could be overcome, and a competent nitro crawler can be built.

Matt
It would take lots of money to do it, and it might not even work.

[RCMadMatt]

It would take lots of money to do it, and it might not even work.
At first it might cost a lot, but that would change if it worked and people started buying it. Look at how much an electric crawler can cost. Or an 1/8th scale buggy! I hope someone with some machining talents could make this go!

Matt

[awnelson]

It seems funny that a nitro cannot be made to crawl considering that 1:1 crawlers are all gas. Yes, I realize nitro crawlers are impractical, but with some innovation, the limitations could be overcome, and a competent nitro crawler can be built.

Matt

Until they find a way to make them electric!!!!

[savage100]

I don't know how crawlers got to be electric, but i would be willing to bet that they started as nitro and then someone realized that nitros can't crawl, so they tried electric and it worked. So now you are going back to the beginning of where crawling started, and failed.

[RCMadMatt]

I don't know how crawlers got to be electric, but i would be willing to bet that they started as nitro and then someone realized that nitros can't crawl, so they tried electric and it worked. So now you are going back to the beginning of where crawling started, and failed.
Is that a statement of fact? I believe that people use electric because it's the easiest way, not necessarily the best. To each his own.

Matt

[xfusion]

Hey, if anyone is thinking of getting a nitro to crawl, simple, get a low geared tranny and get an airplane engine, like one of those .61+ engines that are very low reving but have TONNES of power. They're meant to have lots of power at relatively row RPMs while staying cool at the same time.

[RCMadMatt]

Hey, if anyone is thinking of getting a nitro to crawl, simple, get a low geared tranny and get an airplane engine, like one of those .61+ engines that are very low reving but have TONNES of power. They're meant to have lots of power at relatively row RPMs while staying cool at the same time.
Would a stock clutch handle the torque?

Matt

[xfusion]

http://www.teamboytoys.com/rockbuster/index.htm

I say yes. A good clutch will probably take a fair amount of punishment, it'll probably wear out prematurely, but it's not like every 10mins you have to put in new shoes.

[shadowghost1]

Hey while you guys are hard at work with this nitro thing, why dont ya put a supercharger on it too! Heck even a cool machined down working Holly carburetor. Man think of the endless possibilities.


Guys really...... I know you are getting upset with people chimming in saying that it wont work. On the other hand it sounds like experienced crawlers are the ones saying that they can be made, but not on the electrics performance level. No matter how hard you try to fight it and prove us wrong, you wont. Nitro trucks are made for speed, every thing about them is made for speed, everything. Even the X Factor is made for wheelies and speed, I know because I have one and I tried to lock the diffs and gear it down, but that 24-7 just wont let me crawl. What that needs to happen is the manufactures need to do some research on nitro crawling and develop a motor that is low rpm and consistant while staying cool. Some are saying to use a airplane engine, well you still have to cool it. Also something left out for a while...... its going to be top heavy unless you can mount it on the axles some how. A nitro crawler can be made and they can be fun to play with on limited surfaces but they are limited.
Im going to end this with a good luck to all that tries, may the force be with you. :wave:

[RCMadMatt]

^^^You're right. We should just completely give up on the idea. How dare we look at a problem with fresh eyes. That's how progress is made, right? I've had enough of this thread.

Matt

[savage100]

Look, it is a complete fact, a nitro crawler cannot out crawl an electric. If you want to build a nitro crawler, go for it, but there is absolutely no point if it isn't as good as electric. Not to mention, it would cost a butload of money to make one that actually will work. And even then it probably won't be as good as an electric.

[jamesbernatchez]

[Please stop trying to naysay what we are discussing. Everyone is very aware of the limitations of a nitro crawler compared to an electric, and that a couple of people here aren't going to build them, or attempt to. Whatever. Maybe by talking about what is needed to make an idea work, someone will put their skills to the task and just do it.
A nitro will require some form of torque convertor, lower gearing, perhaps a new chassis design to make it work.
It seems funny that a nitro cannot be made to crawl considering that 1:1 crawlers are all gas. Yes, I realize nitro crawlers are impractical, but with some innovation, the limitations could be overcome, and a competent nitro crawler can be built.

Matt


Ok, ill stop the naysaying :roll2: Have fun wasting money.....

Its not like im saying it wont work. Here is my last post in this pointless thread. People are giving good advice here but most people seem to be avoiding it.

Can a nitro crawl as well as an electric...no. Can a nitro crawl....kinda but nobody with crawling experience would consider it crawling. With money anything is possible. You would have to make so many of your own parts and fab up almost the whole drivetrain that its just not worth it IMO. Ive noticed that the only ones saying its possible seem to be younger people that dont have enough experience in this. Go to RC Crawler and ask the same question and you'll have the top crawlers in the country telling you it wont work.....This same question comes up there at least once a week. Its been tried before with not so good results. This is like beating a dead horse over and over. I can take a tmaxx, gear it low, hop over some rocks and call it a crawler. Doesnt mean it is. Im not trying to discourage you guys, feel free to make it, but just dont expect it to perform well.

shadow - I was one of the first people to say about the center of gravity on the first page. A nitro crawler will never go anywhere an electric will.


How are you going to get the fuel tank, engine, throttle servo, receiver pack all so low without sacrificing ground clearance? Its going to be very hard to do so. Enjoy trying to do the impossible(as far as im concerned right now). If you scaled down a 1:1 jeep for instance with transfer case, etc. etc. then it would be pretty decent but an electric will still outperform it. Since your not asking if a nitro will crawl as well as an electric then build a nitro crawler and have fun. The things im able to do with my crawlers is half the fun of crawling...which wouldnt be accomplished with a nitro.

J

[shadowghost1]

^^^You're right. We should just completely give up on the idea. How dare we look at a problem with fresh eyes. That's how progress is made, right? I've had enough of this thread.

Matt
Quitter, now we may never see a real nitro crawler. Thanks guys... :roll2:

[savage100]

Also, think of this. When a real 1/1 crawler goes over some rocks, going over a rock as big as the tires are tall, is pretty intense. This is talking about 37's to like 42's btw. But when a rc crawler goes over the same thing, a rock as big as the tires, is it intense? No, of course not. You have to go almost vertical and over some massive rocks for a rc to be intense. So, when you think of it, electric rc's, if they were full size, are much more capable than the 1/1's now. And, i bet that if you tried to build a nitro crawler, it would be probably a little less capable than the 1/1's if it were scaled to full size. So, it makes no sense to me why you would want to do that.

[Smib]

I'm actually a little mad that this thread has gone on for four pages. Granted me posting isn't making it any shorter, but jeez people.
I would like to point out Jamesbernatchez's last post. If anyone disagrees with any of it, you are wrong. Sorry, that's just how it is. So go ahead and make a nitro crawler, because it is possible and it would be pretty cool so see a scaler with some scale-ish sounds coming out of it, but please don't get made when a quiet piece of aluminum channel with wheels steals your thunder by crawling the wall next to your truck.

[rccardude04]

Are you all really serious? Or are you just trying to start a fight?
Nobody.. ever.. asked if a Nitro truck has any capability to crawl over rocks as well as an electric flashlight-battery powered electric truck. It was never asked. The question was, can a nitro vehicle go over/up a rock(s).
Nobody has really tried hard enough to do it to prove it doable or undoable. With everyone's lack of imagination or willingness to experiment, nothing will ever happen anywhere.
We can't possibly put a person on the moon. It's not possible. You don't have any fuel to get back. Oh wait... We did do that. My bad.
Good thing you guys aren't in charge of anything. Nobody would create anything.
It's a good thing somebody else designed your electric stuff... You'd all say that it's impossible to make a motor spin without physical contact between the wires and the armature.
It disgusts me.
-Eric

[Smib]

You need to calm down a bit. As I said, it would be pretty cool, and I think it would make an excellent project for anyone that wanted to try it out. All I, and several others said, is that it won't work as well as an electric. And let's not forget that you seem to feel the need to insult those who have an opposing opinion. You don't know me, what I've done, or what I am capable of(creatively speaking, no threats here).

So to put hostility aside, I would not hesitate to congratulate anyone who took the time and made the effort to make a nitro crawler, and I'm kind of hoping you do it just to spite us. That way we get to see one.

[rccardude04]

Calm down? I almost fell asleep waiting for a reply.
I'm glad you know much more about what I'm capable of than I know of what you are.
I'm not insulting anyone any more than you are buddy.
-Eric

[ericem]

What are you talking about telling him to calm down? He just restated what this thread was about, and made a good point. Jeese. If anyone you should calm down, you just come in this thread, and tell us something is NOT duoble, when it is, does a 1:1 scale vehicle get full hp at 1,000rpm's? No usually its at much higher rpm's but they still made them rock crawlers, by using different gearing, whether it was in the front and rear diff, or it was the tranny. If its geared low enough, it will rev higher right. Just because the power band is low at low rpm's doesn't mean its impossible to make a nitro crawl.

[xfusion]

People need to figure out how to formulate an argument. There have been few posts in this thread that I would consider to be valid ideas and arguments, you just can't say:

When a real 1/1 crawler goes over some rocks, going over a rock as big as the tires are tall, is pretty intense. This is talking about 37's to like 42's btw. But when a rc crawler goes over the same thing, a rock as big as the tires, is it intense? No, of course not. You have to go almost vertical and over some massive rocks for a rc to be intense. So, when you think of it, electric rc's, if they were full size, are much more capable than the 1/1's now. And, i bet that if you tried to build a nitro crawler, it would be probably a little less capable than the 1/1's if it were scaled to full size.

There is no validity in this arguments. The flow of your thinking is so turbulent it just makes no sense and wastes a readers time as it's not proving or disproving anything, it's forming together sentences just for the hell of it. Real cars going over large rocks isn't intense, so if they were scaled down they'd be even less intense, so it's a waste of time. Dude, you making that comment was a waste of time.

Imagine this, you made an electric rock crawler into a 1/1 car. You would literally have two 3' high by 5' long electric motors and about 2 tonnes of batteries sharing the ride. Considering that a current rock crawling engine is about 1/2 the size of one of these motors alone, it is extremely capable to do the job. There are videos where these crawlers are climbing up huge hills and rocks, not little tire sized ones, so I don't know where you're getting your information from.

[shadowghost1]

Wow, it took you 3 days to respond to a dead thread. We all discussed the issue and dropped it and we dont need a hot head trying to stir the pot. This thread should be locked. popcorn

[ericem]

Wow, it took you 3 days to respond to a dead thread. We all discussed the issue and dropped it and we dont need a hot head trying to stir the pot. This thread should be locked. popcorn

why?????????????? NO ONE offically dropped it, a few people GAVE UP.

[jamesbernatchez]

You guys are too amusing! :D





Ok...THIS is my last post....i promise....well maybe :)

[shadowghost1]

why?????????????? NO ONE offically dropped it, a few people GAVE UP.
:wave: Im your huckleberry. Hey I got an ideal, build a nitro crawler that works and we will stop laughing at you. Until then stop boring me and put more effort into building the nitro dream, and not running your mouth so much and you will make some real progress. (I think that was a run on) :teacher:

[rccardude04]

Let's get something straight here...
I'm not a hot head. I was at work, bored because we were slow. A friend of mine showed me this thread and how silly it was so I decided to respond and stir up some commotion because I very much disagree that somebody should be told that something can't be done just because it's not guaranteed to be the absolute best possible way of doing so.

Second, I'm not really even into rock crawlers yet. This whole thing has given me at least a temporary mindset to spend a few bucks on a nitro crawler just to prove a point.

Remind me why, again, a crawler won't work as a nitro? There are a few problems that would need to be overcome. But it's far from impossible.
-Eric

[savage100]

Ok, since xfusion wanted me to prove a point then here it is. WOW!!! This is sooooooooo sad!! :roll2: Get it through your head, A NITRO CANNOT CRAWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you dont' believe me, go register on rccrawler and ask a simple question, "Can a nitro crawl" That would be the end of you thinking a nitro can crawl for sure.

If you want to spend your time and money trying to make one, just be sure to post the amount you have spent compared with an electric crawler. And two videos, one of your nitro and an electric and tell me that a nitro can outcrawl and electric. But the point is, even if it isn't against anyone, a nitro will never be able to crawl, period. I would be willing to bet that not one person in the WHOLE WORLD has made a nitro succesfully outcrawl an electric crawler. I would be so willing to bet that, that i would bet up all the money i have and all the rc's i have. And if someone can prove me wrong, i would give them that. Think about what you are asking ok? You are wondering if a nitro can crawl right? Umm, THOUSANDS of people have been making electrics crawl for years. I seriously doubt that trying to get a nitro to crawl has not been tried. In fact, i KNOW, because i have tried it. And let me tell you, i just laughed and laughed at how much it sucked. At my OWN truck, i just laughed!! So, if you want to try, let me know how badly you fail ok? I am really done with this thread for good.

[rccardude04]

Why don't we turn this into something productive rather than arguing back and fourth...
What did you have trouble with exactly? WHat were the weaknesses?
Don't worry. I won't make you pay up. ;) lol
-Eric

[savage100]

First of all, sorry for making a big fuss over not a big argument. But i was just a little mad, has nothing to do with this thread though. But if it got stuck in a spot, and i gave it throttle, then it would either not move or go flying out of the spot and jump all the other rocks or just flip over. Also, it could not go up hills at all. I think that a nitro can go over rocks for sure, but i don't think people would think of it as actual "crawling". It is just too fast paced and rush crawling everything. And i am sure that the engine would overheat also, if you were consistantly running it. But maybe with a cooling fan or something, it wouldn't. But even with the cooling, it wouldn't change how the engine acts, it would still produce the type of power that it was meant for, not slow crawling.

[xfusion]

What you don't understand is that you can control the speed of an engine using gearing, clutches, slipper gear, adjusting the transmission, and modifying the transmission to do what you want it to do. Most of you have such a narrow mind set that it's clouding your judgement. It's like "the LST2 stock can't crawl, and nitro parts are meant for speed, so a nitro Crawler CAN'T work!" I wish someone would give me like 2K to make a nitro crawler. Then all of you would like "*sniff* My electric is still better, my mommy says so!*sniff* *sniff*"

[jamesbernatchez]

Why must it be said over and over and over again!? Does anybody read the posts in the thread? Myself and others have made MANY valid points that apparently people dont read. Im not pulling this stuff out of my you know what. Im on here and crawler and have built a fair share of crawling rigs(scale and competition) and have listed all a nitro's shortcomings. Its a fact that one will not crawl anywhere close to a elelctric. I think that has been understood for the last few pages. With what is out right now it is impossibe to get a nitro to CRAWL!! The way the engines are designed you need RPM's to get into their powerband..... You will never get the desired slow wheel placement that you would with an electric. Its impossible with the clutch setups we have today. A few years from now....maybe, but not now.

RCCardude04- You said that you are thinking of building one to prove a point....well than do it. You will only be proving the points that myself and others have been making all along. Im not attacking you directly but I just wanted to make sure that you understand where im coming from.


Everyone that is saying its possible...well than stop typing on the computer and BUILD ONE! Just do it...no ifs ands or buts. Then when your done you can come back on here and apoligize for not at least taking into consideration our side of the arguement. Somebody builds a nitro crawler...ill be happy to have a friendly competition against my 2.2 comp rig. If you beat me id be VERY suprised...but until that time comes your not changing my mindset.

Lets break it down once more:

Electric will outcrawl a Nitro: True
Nitro will outcrawl an Electric: False
Nitro can CRAWL: False
Nitro can rock hop and bounce: True
Nitro has too many shortcomings to make an effective crawler(in general, not against electric): True
I deserve a raise: True
This is the end of the debate: Probably not cause im sure somebody wont like what I have to say :D


J

[savage100]

Exactly. And haven't others said that they don't have a crawler? Me and jamesbernatchez do. We know how they work. We have built them and know how they are so good. Most of it is the motor and suspension geometry. Also, gearing. With different pinions and stuff, it changes the speed and torque. But changing a pinion or clutch gear on a nitro engine isn't going to help greatly. So for those who have never had or driven an electric crawler, think of those who have. And james, you do not need a raise, you got enough rc's already. :D

[rccardude04]

So if I ran a nitro engine, with the clutch fully engaged, at 12000-20000rpm, in its powerband, like helis do... and i had it geared say 300:1 so that the thing went maybe 5mph at 20,000rpm, it's not slow enough?
I am listening to both sides of this "argument" which has turned into more of a bash fest for some people it seems like.
Instead of arguing that it IS impossible, why don't we try and discuss what would MAKE it possible? If it was, you know you'd want one. Unless you're an electric guy which is fine. I used to be and still am to some extent.
I'll consider giving it a shot. I know a guy who can make me parts and I've pretty much figured out the transmission short of knowing what parts to use.


Savage... thanks for the reply. Your problem was that it seemed basically like on or off power, right? I see why that would happen. Clutch engagement. If you had a low enough ratio gearbox though, the problem wouldn't be there. An LST type low/high speed cam selector run off a servo could potentially be set up to run (random example) 20:1 in high, and 300:1 in low. Brakes could be placed on a 3rd channel so the transmission could be *loaded* before you tried to move, thus helping to eliminate the lurching that you experienced.
Whattaya think?
Anybody with anything negative, stay out of this. Please. I'm going for ideas.
-Eric

Edit: I don't have a tremendous amount of crawling experience due to lack of terrain. I do have a clod (zilla 3 chassis) that I'm trying to turn into one. It's a long project but it's coming along.

[EvilTwin v2]

Yes, with the right gearing, you can get a nitro to crawl. However, you'd better figure out a good cooling system for it. At rpm's necessary for full clutch engagement, you're going to overheat the engine in minutes at such low speeds. I guess if you were creative, you could rig up a cooling system using computer fans.

The other problem (less important) is that a nitro engine's power curve is so "peaky" that it just isn't as ideal as electric (which has a very linear curve). It's workable, but the linear power curve of the electric lends itself so much better to crawling.

I had an X-Factor which worked quite well as far as nitro crawlers go, but it ate clutches with the gearing, and got very very hot when going slow.

My suggestion would be to focus your attention on cooling, otherwise the engine won't last long.

[shadowghost1]

Eviltwin, your from Moundsville? Im from Morgantown we should meet up and do some crawling.

[awnelson]

So, I've watched an idea turn into a debate which turned into a flame war and now that it's heated up enough, I want to join in. JK

What I have been thinking about though is a small motor (.15 or less) with a ducted fan mounted on the front and a very small pulley on the shaft as well. That pulley uses a belt which connects to another pulley, but the second one has two pieces that slide in and out to allow for engagement. All controls are linked to the throttle and steering, no third channel unless you want rear steering. When you start the truck, it rests on enough drag brake (read: completely locked rotor) which holds it in place while on rocks or elsewhere. As you apply throttle, it engages the pulley sheaves (halves of the two piece pulley) until it removes slack in the belt and at the same time decreases the brakes. The throttle is also controlled by the same servo but has play in the linkage up until this point. When the pulley and belt configuration starts trying to move the truck, the truck rolls out at minimum throttle and the brakes become completely released. As you increase throttle from this point on, the clutch (movable pulley) doesn't engage any tighter but the throttle increases the speed of the vehicle. When you want to stop, the brakes work the same way that they did at idle. Any thoughts?

[jamesbernatchez]

^ ......im confused :D

[suckfish]

all I can say is WHAT....

[savage100]

Ok, one thing also is that for a nitro to crawl the same as an electric, you would have to have the motors have the same power, torque, and everything. And a unique chassis/suspension design to get the cog lowest. But if you could get it to work, i think most people would rather spend $20 on an electric motor than $100 or more on a nitro one. And i don't think people that have had electrics all the time would want to deal with breaking in the engine and tune it. So basicly what you would be buying with a nitro crawler is the noise to make it sound better and more realistic. Also, the grease and all that other junk that builds up on nitros from the gas tank and stuff. I'm also guessing that the nitros would all be supers, just a guess. So that would be a lot less of a crowd that you are trying to sell to. It would leave out all the 2.2's and scalers. So, if you just wanted it for you and not try to sell them, it might be possible, but probably not the most practical thing to do.

Edit: And awnelson, if you drew a pic or something in paint, it would help explain a lot because i am confused too.

[EvilTwin v2]

I just viewed this thread from a "could it be done" stand point. However, there are a bunch of people taking either side way too personally. People taking either extreme acting almost equally childish.

My opinion, as I started into above, is yes it can be done. Is it practical? NO. It will involve a ton of custom work, and will still probably not come close to competing with electrics. As for sound, I don't think the high pitch, 2-stroke sound really goes well with the crawlers.

Now if somebody were to take the time to do a professional looking custom, using a 4-stroke, I'd be curious to see it. Otherwise, (and I'm going to be a bit harsher now) in my opinion, this, while it makes interesting conversation, would be a waste of time to pursue.

[awnelson]

You're right, it's a bashing and racing forum, not a talking one. Everyone back to your trucks and be careful that you don't run into anyone else!!! No more wasting time talking about anything. And... heaven forbid anyone do anything custom that they couldn't buy with their credit card since all they can spell is RTR anyway. Now, not a peep out of anyone here lest you be thought to be childish or extreme.

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

[EvilTwin v2]

You're right, it's a bashing and racing forum, not a talking one. Everyone back to your trucks and be careful that you don't run into anyone else!!! No more wasting time talking about anything. And... heaven forbid anyone do anything custom that they couldn't buy with their credit card since all they can spell is RTR anyway. Now, not a peep out of anyone here lest you be thought to be childish or extreme.

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Yep, that's the exact attitude. You are either not open minded or intelligent enough to understand the English language. By extreme, I'm not referring to how custom or extreme the project, but your stance on the issue. There are 4 type of people posting in this thread; 1. Those with a middle of the road stance, who have made constructive posts offering information to answer the question. 2. The extreme nay sayers who are calling anybody who would partake such a project an idiot. 3. The extreme other side who are completely offended that people would see any issue at all with the idea of a nitro crawler. The 4th group is the absolute worst. These people have absolute disregard for anybody or anything. They are the Trolls.

The only intelligent, free thinking people of the bunch are group 1, who are willing to see that there's a person for every project, and project for every person. They can see that it might not be the most practical, but it can make for interesting discussion, and if attempted, even more interesting results. Both groups 2 and 3 (and even group 4 to an extent), are so immature or egocentric (or maybe just ignorant), that they can't understand anybody having an opinion other than their own. They are willing to resort to insults and name calling in an attempt to "piss off" anybody who doesn't share thier view.

awnelson, I have yet to read enough of your posts to tell if you're unintelligent or just a troll.

[MattHiggins]

I see this thread getting closed soon. If I get motivated enough to read through all of this garbage, anyone flaming anyone will be instantly banned--no exceptions. So, go back now and edit or delete your posts that contain anything close to name calling, flaming, or being a jerk. And, I don't care who started it ... most of you aren't children.

Now, here's my opinion for what it's worth:
I've said this before and still stand by it ... whether or not nitro can crawl all depends on your expectations.

> A nitro crawler will never be as capable as the typical electric crawler. By the way, stock Clods and TLT-1's are terrible rock crawlers.
> If you want to compete (about 10% of you--maybe less), go electric
> This is a hobby and you can do what ever you like, so if you want your crawler to be nitro even though electric is better--that's fine.
> Just because one way is the best way to do something, doesn't mean it's the only way. My 1.9 crawler stinks up the joint, but I'm still allowed to do it. My Super crawler can out crawl my 2.2 any day of the week, but I don't get flamed for owning (and preferring) a 2.2 crawler.
> Not everyone is into hardcore crawling. Just bouncing over some rocks might be someone's idea of crawling. Guess what? That's fine.
> Hardcore rock crawlers do the worst job of representing themselves.

[jamesbernatchez]

^ What he said :D

[rccardude04]

:D
Just close it. I'm done here. If I ever tackle the project and try to build something, I'll post it so everyone can see its success or failure.
-Eric

[jamesbernatchez]

:D
Just close it. I'm done here. If I ever tackle the project and try to build something, I'll post it so everyone can see its success or failure.
-Eric


Please do! Id like to see how you go about creating it. It would be interesting to watch the build up of it. :)

[MattHiggins]

I've talked to Kevin Hetmanski about this a little bit, and the first thing he said was get a steel clutch. We use one on our dyno and it holds up very well. They also make water cooling kits for land-use nitro engines; that or a simple fan would help solve the heat problem.

Again, the goal is not to make a nitro crawler that is better or as good as an electric crawler. I've never heard one person say nitro would be better, but would think many people had said that based on the reaction by some people.

I personally have no interest in making a nitro crawler, but if someone else wants to make as capable of a nitro crawler as they can--more power to 'em. This is a hobby guys; lighten up.

[backyard-basher]

-engine weight adds to chassis weight
-nitro fuel/oil mess on the course (and the resultant loss of traction) would piss me off
-power curve presents problems
-vibration reduces traction
-fuel sloshes around making chassis sway and traction even worse
ALTHOUGH
I'd love to see a scaler with a 4 stroke gasoline engine. I believe the power curve would be better for what we do, although I'm not absolutely sure since I don't own one. A fellow hobbyist has a few stroker planes I've flown, and they get off the deck in a hurry! Also, the sound and smell would be very scale.