Budget electric off-road versus thread! :D

[Helgaiden]

Driver skill aside, what order would you guys say the following RCs belong in terms of on-track performance?

Buggies

Evader BX Pro (http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/duratrax/dtxd28.html)

Bandit (best version) (http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/traxxas/trac05.html)

Thunder Tiger Pheonix BX (http://www.thundertiger4u.com/thunder-tiger-phoenix-110th-offroad-buggy-p-13112.html)

Tamiya Sand-Viper or other DT-02 based kits (http://www.tamiyausa.com/product/item.php?product-id=58374)

Sportwerks Raven BX (http://www.sportwerksrc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=SWK1510)


If i forgot any 1/10 buggies please let me know, trying to stick to the sub $200 range (i know the losis and associated RTRs arent too far but whatever lol, same to the below category)


Now for budget electric trucks!

Rustler (http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/traxxas/trac14.html)

Thunder Tiger Pheonix ST (http://www.thundertiger4u.com/thunder-tiger-phoenix-carl-wbatt-p-13111.html)

XTM X-Cellerator electric (http://www.hobbypeople.net/review1/145612.htm)

Duratrax Evader ST Pro (http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=564)

Sportwerks Raven ST (http://www.sportwerksrc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=SWK1500)



Cool...

go! :D :)


p.s
if you're wondering "why?" then its just cuz im curious because ive been in the "zomg AE or Losi bust!" mindset for a while (ive got a friend that wont buy anything other than Losi, HB, AE, or HPI....mainly Losi). :)

[Tamiya4ever]

Hmm for me the Tamiya would be a good choice. But you also have to condisder parts availability. What cars do your local hobby shop carry and the parts. And are they stocked with them? The Bandit is another car I would go with. I am sure that they stock Traxxas parts.

[Rear Admiral]

I've only looked at the Evader, the Bandit and the Sand Viper. For me, the Evader was the clear winner in terms of build quality and tunability (ball diff, slipper clutch, graphite parts, decent ESC etc)

[skylineTT]

the bandit wins in durability but its not as racey as the other ones. evader might be okay but the plastic is weak and the parts support sucks around here. other than that, id hit a losi truck/buggie or an AE truck/buggie. i have a nice AE buggy for sale really cheap if you want it. i guess pm if interested but yeah

[badboy2]

id go with the traxxas ones.theyve been out for a while..although i like the raven also..

[timie1]

You guys know that Thunder Tiger bought AE right? and also that they make a lot of the parts for AE? You have a look at the Thunder Tiger BX, and IT IS a RC10B3. Based on that alone I'd say it's the most raceable.
About build quality of the Duratrax being really great......bollox!! My brother has a duratrax evader (truck) and it's really adjustable and all, but quality wise I'd say Tamiya are leaps and bounds ahead of the evader series. Everything on Tamiya kits just fits, it works and is built quite strong. The DT02 may not be the most raceable of that bunch out of the box, but it's probably the most durable, that and the Traxxas. The Traxxas is just an old old old style and it doesn't look right IMO.

NOW, in terms of on track performance........ you can't compare them. The best version Bandit has a brushless setup. The best available Tamiya DT02 has a silver can mabuchi. Of course the Bandit is gonna win.
The best duratrax evader has a 15t motor, which when geared right is a seriously quick RTR without going brushless. Do yourself a favour if you go the evader way, gear up a lot. The orion motor can handle it and you will be really impressed with the serious improvement.
I don't know enough about the sportwerks performance. It looks similar to the thunder tiger and evader in chassis layout.

If it was me, I'd get the Thunder Tiger for being closest to an AE or Losi style, which probably makes that the most raceable and apparently most AE RC10B3 parts fit that. Then again I do have a soft spot for Tamiya, cos they are a kit. So you could save yourself the money and put it together yourself and buy a decent motor and ESC and shocks and you'd have the best all-round car of the lot probably.

[vaderbxman]

Here's the fun part. Duratrax doesn't make the Pro version anymore. Which leaves you with the shaite-tacular 20T motor.

[timie1]

Here's the fun part. Duratrax doesn't make the Pro version anymore. Which leaves you with the shaite-tacular 20T motor.

Aye, that sucks. Probably cos the graphite parts are seriously weak and brittle, and with that guarantee they had on those parts, it was costing Duratrax more than they were making. Admittedly, you got some good electronics for the price they were selling them at.

[timie1]

I wouldn't get an RTR if you can help it. You pay for electronics you will chuck away very quickly. Buy without all the electronics and pay less, then pay for the electronics you want, not what you are given by the company.

Motors are notoriously garbage with RTR (the evader pro's were an exception) and the speed controls are mediocre at best.

[Helgaiden]

meh, a friend got an evader pro BX and within 5 runs the motor burnt out. Wasnt very impressive (though the electronics were worth it imo). Anyways, i was just assuming they were level as far as motors go...like if they were all running stock 27turns like the CO27 or something. I did know TT's stuff were AE's last generation stuff...but Duratrax is doing that too so that means Evader vs. Phoenix is the classic B3/T3 vs. XX-CR/T you know?

Im noticing nobody said anything about the sportwerks stuff or the XTM truck...

ps
I already own a B4, im just wondering about all this for my own knowledge because every review is always positive when i know that in reality there ARE weaknesses, and this forum is reality so i wanna hear all the criticsm versus threads can bring about over this.

[GSMnow]

I have a Hobby People a short distance away. The XTM Accelerator Electric is actually a very good truck and can run quite fast. Several show up at the local track to do battle. One I know ran modified, the others were in 27 turn stock. The fastest of the27 turn stock guys was running a CO27 and he changed out all of the radio gear for a Spektrum DX 2.0, a fast HiTec servo, and a better ESC. So he bought an RTR for $129 and then stuck about $400 in upgrades onto it to run with the basic AE and Losi guys. And at the two races I have seen him at, he cracked the main chassis right behind the front bulkhead. Yes, at both races. The chassis plate is about $14, but you have to remove and remount EVERYTHING. When I looked it up on the web (I almost bought one) I found ALOT of people complaining about the cracking chassis and a few sites showed hand made braces to prolong chassis life.

Conclusion? I bought a XXX-T and I am very glad I did. My total expenses are on par with what the fastest XTM owner ended up spending, and I have only ever failed to finish 2 race heats in almost a year. Lost a rear camber link ball stud once and broke a ball cup once. On poractice days I have broken a few other parts, but I can't blame it on the truck. I was slammed bu 1/8 Buggies and or Truggies which finally took out 1 front A-arm and on another hit, cracked the gearbox housing. Both fixes were just $6 parts.

[Helgaiden]

saying "he put $400 worth of stuff" into it where that investment is mainly in a radio then comparing that to a losi or AE is kinda dumb. A radio doesnt make a car anyways, the ESC...yeah i can understand that one i guess. Usually when someone claims they have X amount of dollars in their cars, they are referring to servos/chassis/arms/shocktowers/shocks/bearings/etc, not so much radio or ESC (tho some would count esc, but w/e). So in effect, basic X-cellerator was running with basic AE/Losi RTRs and keeping up according to you, just breaking more (and you only mentioned the chassis plate, which i was aware of as well and easily fixed).

but yeah thanks for bringing up that chassis issue, not sure how many people knew about that.

[timie1]

No, it's not kinda dumb.
I think what GSMnow is trying to say is that you can buy an XTM and spend loads of money on it and it still won't beat a Losi or AE. If at the end of the day you have spent $400 but have broken the chassis and not WON any races, and to repair the chassis problem you have to pull everything out of the truck, then buying the XTM in first place would be a waste. For an extra $400 you expect to see a return on your investment, and with the XTM you won't see it because the weakest link is the principle design of it - the weak chassis; $400 won't change that!!
On the other hand, if you bought a AE or even Losi kit, which isn't far off the price of the XTM, and spent the $400 on extras, you'd have a pretty much indestructable racer capable of winning, providing your driving skills are equally as good.

I believe that is what GSMnow was getting at.

[Helgaiden]

Hobby people had the XTM for $120, if you ask me that is QUITE far off the price of an AE or Losi, especially for someone who just wants to get into the hobby. If they are knowledgable enough, they can find/make a brace and all is well after that. $400 in electronics doesnt change the capabilities of the vehicle itself (except for the servo in this case), so what I was getting at was just that. I understood what GSMnow was saying. The "loads of money" spent on the XTM as GSM was saying can be easily transferred over, which in case has nothing to do with actual capabilities of the car itself.

I do agree that that weak point in the XTM is rather disappointing, but its not like its hard to prevent/fix (but i guess thats besides the point eh?)

[GSMnow]

I don't have a full list of everything he changed. The main points were that the ESC, motor, and steering servo were crap. Of course he bought tires to suit our local track, I go through a set every two races, no biggie there. He is still in stock class, so the gearbox and diff are still holding up. He felt the stock radio was just too glitchy, so he poped for the Spektrum, yes, it can move to another car. He is a good driver, and with the right power system for the class and a good setup on the suspension, he can hang with the other locals running in stock. XTM did a very good job of making the suspension geometry really close to the AE and Losi trucks. I think he is even running Losi springs. I have 2 sets of XTM wheels I use on my Losi. Most people can't tell which rim is which. It is a very good copy. Local store price iot $129 and it will get you on track. For 100 more, I got the Losi XXX-T MF2 edition. Just graphite arms and titanium turnbuckles will cost you that much. I also have a full graphite chassis and much better shocks. The big difference is you MUST purchase a radio, ESC, servo, and motor to go anywhere. The free radio gear may not be junk, but I have yet to see anyone run well with the original stuff. And of course, the broken chassis situation.

I would steer towards a Losi RTR. Or if your LHS is all Associated, get their RTR. Sure they do cost more, but all the hot parts will bolt right on. Can you even get graphite arms for the XTM?

[Helgaiden]

dunno about the graphite stuff, but from what i hear pro racers dont use a graphite chassis anyways, and graphite arms and stuff are something to get into once more experienced has been gained (unlike what the xtm is more aimed at, new-to-racing people will need the flexibility of regular plastic). This IS a budget discussion, and as you said you paid about $229 for the kit, then had to invest in a radio and all other electronics...at which the pricepoint is very intimidating for budget minded racers/weekend warriors. I have a B4 and a TC3, i know what good quality is like. My lil bro had a stampede, nothing ever broke on that either. My HPI nitro MT broke arms now and then, but when i learned to drive better that problem too went away. My tc3 has broken some parts too but that comes with the territory of onroad racing. 3 of my friends have Evaders, 1 was bought new. Hes broken the shock tower, which was graphite thus brittle, now its plastic and no problems. The other one (his brother's) has a stripped spur, no biggie. Its taken a huge beating with no broken parts yet. The other Evader had a broken bulkhead i didnt see, its cracked, but was raced and held up fine. I really think that unless theres a major design flaw, decent driving and control will keep any budget RTR from breaking too often. The XTM of course, needs a slight mod.

anyone have ANY experience with the Sportwekrs stuff?

[timie1]

Hobby people had the XTM for $120, if you ask me that is QUITE far off the price of an AE or Losi, especially for someone who just wants to get into the hobby.

Well IF they had it at $120, they don't NOW. Now it's $140 http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/145612.asp compared to a $180 T4 kit at amainhobbies http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/products_id/13038 what with the discount coupons you could get it for about $160ish.
Sure you have to buy the radio gear and esc and motor with the T4, but you can then get what you want. With the XTM you can't use the 20t motor it comes with for racing, so you have to buy a motor for that. If you raced in the 19t class, you'd have to get a new esc as well. The only thing you can use in the RTR XTM is the radio - and so really, a T4 is not going to cost a lot more for a far superior product. You can easily get a full brand new set of 3 channel traxxas radio gear including crystals from ebay for $16 (I know cos I bought one) and it works brilliantly. You can get this esc http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=DYN4925 and that also works well for a budget esc.

So if an up-and-running raceable T4 cost about $40-50 more than an XTM for a superior product, it is not very far off. If you wanted to get used parts from ebay, you could get a T4 going for about the same price as an upgraded motor and esc in the XTM.

[Helgaiden]

it was $120 on sale this weekend so of course it isnt anymore. You're skewing the numbers and you're totally forgetting what this thread is aimed at! You think someone new to the hobby is gonna wanna go through the time to build their kit up, learn what kind of radio they should get and scour ebay for it or other places, know what kind of ESC would be good to go with or not, and then put it all onto the chassis? Nope. I understand the AE and Losi's are superior products (for now at least), but for the price and effort to get up and running with AE or Losi is ALOT higher regardless of what an RTR comes with. Any hobbystore that sells the XTM to someone wanting to dabble in racing will go "we suggest stock class for you, its $30 for a motor" and poof done. No new ESC needed.

For your first car would you take a ready to go, decently equpped honda civic for $5000 or a Corvette with no engine and brakes for $20,000? This is what this thread is about...ALL OF US know what the better product is. We want this hobby to grow, not intimidate newcomers by telling them "no dont get those cheap RTRs, get this more expensive kit you have to build yourself and get all the electronics for and solder everything yourself..."

so enough of that, im trying to get more varied responses...not "the xtm isnt as good as an AE or Losi" regurgled into something else. What i really want to see now is if anyone has had any experience with the sportwerks stuff.

[timie1]

I don't mean to offend you. I'm just saying for about the same price, or not a lot more, what can be bought if one puts in the effort. Both the title of this thread nor your original post is talking about a noob getting into the hobby, you purely mentioned "budget offroad versus thread" and then you say "driver skill aside". None of those is noob. Some people have dabbled in RC for 10 years and they still suck at driving.
Also, if you bought the Tamiya kits, you'd have to buy all the radio and motor and stuff which makes it as daunting for noobs as a T4.

And for the record, I'd much rather buy the Civic. I'm a Honda fan. Always have been and always will be. They make far better quality cars than GM.

I am also interested in the sportwerks stuff, so I also hope someone with experience comes on about those.

In all honesty, probably duratrax, sportwerks, XTM, and Thunder Tiger are all much of a muchness. They are all made in China or asia and imported by an american company (Thunder Tiger excepted being they are not an American comp) and they are all virtually identical. The only thing the American companies do is maybe put their own electronics in like an orion motor and futaba radio. Only Tamiya truly designs and makes their own in Japan; and Traxxas makes their own ones and are a considerably different design and look.

[Helgaiden]

I don't mean to offend you. I'm just saying for about the same price, or not a lot more, what can be bought if one puts in the effort. Both the title of this thread nor your original post is talking about a noob getting into the hobby, you purely mentioned "budget offroad versus thread" and then you say "driver skill aside". None of those is noob. Some people have dabbled in RC for 10 years and they still suck at driving.
Also, if you bought the Tamiya kits, you'd have to buy all the radio and motor and stuff which makes it as daunting for noobs as a T4.

And for the record, I'd much rather buy the Civic. I'm a Honda fan. Always have been and always will be. They make far better quality cars than GM.

I am also interested in the sportwerks stuff, so I also hope someone with experience comes on about those.

In all honesty, probably duratrax, sportwerks, XTM, and Thunder Tiger are all much of a muchness. They are all made in China or asia and imported by an american company (Thunder Tiger excepted being they are not an American comp) and they are all virtually identical. Only Tamiya and Traxxas makes their own ones and are considerably different (for the low price things).

Budget tends to refer to those either cheap, or new to the hobby. Its greatly obvious why an XTM or the others listed fit into the budget category while the AEs and Losi kits do not (startup price difference is much bigger). Though if you'd like to point out misinformation from my first post, go ahead and look at the part that says to rule out the AE and Losi RTRs. "But im talking about the kits, not the RTRs," well im not, also notice all of the choices, sans the tamiya, are RTRs. Those more experienced with the hobby will look past everything I listed, and unless they have actual experience with what this thread is about, then its better to not post at all because arguments like these tend to pop up. This isnt a "dont get that, get this" thread, its a thread to discuss the capabilities of the LISTED items capabilities.

and about the Honda thing, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Nuff' Said.

[timie1]

..... "But im talking about the kits, not the RTRs," well im not, also notice all of the choices, sans the tamiya, are RTRs. .

Whatever. It sounds to me like your a bit confused on what you mean and I can't be bothered arguing.

Someone with Sportwerks experience please speak up!!

[Helgaiden]

cool ill be sure to be much more specific that way people like you dont come in here and pick apart the comparisons next time. As for the sportwerks stuff, yes, someone speak up.

[scoob]

Out of that group (looking just at the buggies) I would probably take the Thunder Tiger. It's practically an a B3 and I have a B3 and it handles well enough to race now. Also I wonder how many parts may be interchangable for added part support.

I have a Sand viper and I don't reccomend it for racing. It's missing A slipper and it has a hop in the rear that I can't get rid of . It's great for what it's meant for though.

The Bandit is another that will put you at a disadvantage on a track. The Evaders are very capable of racing and doing well too. I've seen them do it. I don't have experience with the sportwerks but it looks capable. I would just worry about parts support since I'm not sure how it is.

[bassguitar]

I've got a sportwerks raven buggy that I got in April - RTR. I'm not a great driver, but I'm not terrible either, and I've broken quite a few things on it.

- front arm broke (at the holes where the hinge pins go) - good thing is they're symmetrical, so they're the same on both sides
- rear arm broke (sames - at the holes where the hinge pins go) - good thing is they're symmetrical, so they're the same on both sides
- rear shock tower
- diff chewed up (no ball diff avail, so had to replace with a stock gear diff) and the whole back end needs to be dissasembled - I have a Dark Impact, and getting to those diffs is super easy
- diff outdrives get kinda stripped as the dogbones have a little too much wiggle room - have replaced once
- Bent 6! rear axles from what I think are just slightly off balanced landings
- the steering servo mount sucks - I've broken two servo cases where the screws go in to the upright mounting pieces
- the radio/esc is okay, but pretty basic - I think the esc will go to 15T, but I doubt the diff could handle that
- the 19T motor is okay speed-wise, but the brushes are strange (they're opposite of other ones i've used on venom, and team brood motors) and I've yet to find ones that fit though honestly I haven't tried that hard
- the shocks are decent - adjustable threaded aluminum
- comes will full sealed ball bearings
- has slipper clutch

The parts are pretty inexpensive and relatively easy to replace though, and there's a full parts listing with MSRP and part #'s in the manual. It does share some parts with the ST. The shop where i got it usually has stock, but there's very little support online which is where I primarily buy stuff as the hobby store is a bit of a drive away.

[timie1]

The shop where i got it usually has stock, but there's very little support online which is where I primarily buy stuff as the hobby store is a bit of a drive away.

Thanks for giving us firsthand experience with your sportwerks.
What hobby shop do you usually go to? I'm not far from Toronto and whenever I travel there I like to go to at least 1 hobby shop. Does this shop have a decent range of tamiya and associated stuff? Also do they have a decent range of electric accessories and kits? Most I have seen lately mainly have nitro :mad:

[Helgaiden]

thats quite disappointing news with the sportwerks, especially to hear it doesnt have a ball diff. I learned that the Thunder Tiger also comes with bronze bushings...no bearings...also kind of disappointing. The arms breaking, meh, that use to happen alot with me in the past with cars i was new to driving, but once i got better at driving i stopped breaking arms. The rear axle thing tho...sheesh! They need to make some universals for that.

Thanks for your input! If you can, try driving other buggies at the track for a few laps and see if you notice any difference! That would be great!

[bassguitar]

Helgaiden:
Yeah - I'm not too worried about the arms breaking - that's not a big deal. Though I have yet to break an arm on my Dark Impact. No ball diff sucks though. It is sorta new, so maybe Horizon will come out with some better upgrade parts like a ball diff or some universals.

Timie:
Most of the time I go to Hobby Hobby in Streetsville when I don't order stuff online. They carry associated, as well as Tamiya and lots of other brands. Decent electric support I think, and of course they'll order stuff for you if they don't have it in stock. It's a bit of a drive for me though as I live downtown TO and it's way out in Streetsville.

http://www.hobbyhobby.com/store/

There's one called Toys for Big Boys @ 427/Dundas which is a lot closer for me, but they don't carry Tamiya or Sportwerks and tend to have a lot of nitro stuff.

edit:
I just saw this:
http://www.sportwerksrc.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=&CatID=CPO
I guess they're starting to come out with more option parts.

Don't get me too wrong - for about 200.00 RTR it's not bad for those getting into the hobby. I was in a while ago, and then got back into it quite a bit this year and probably should have got something a little better. Which I sorta did in getting the Dark Impact. It's a lot more durable I think, and there's quite a bit of aftermarket support and hop ups around.

[timie1]

Don't get me wrong, but what is the benefit of a ball diff over a gear diff? I have had Tamiya cars both off and onroads over the years. They all have had gear diffs. I have NEVER EVER in the 16 years I've been using them done anything apart from clean the diff and regrease it. The diff always works well enough and there is never any chance of it slipping and ruining it.
Now I have a B4 and it's got a ball diff, and driving it, the diff is no better. It still works at rotating each wheel independently equally as good as the bevel gear diffs.
Some of the quickest RTR's out have a bevel gear diff, the Jato for one. Anything that can do 65mph out of the box has to be built to handle it.

On an RTR for someone getting into the hobby, a gear diff MAY be better. Far less maintenance and things to go wrong, and it's also cheaper.

A slipper clutch on the other hand........now that's a completely different kettle of fish. Those little inventions are great.

[timie1]

With that new information about the Sportwerks, I'd say you get the most with the Duratrax Evaders. They have full ball bearings, slipper, ball diff (if you must have one of those) decent electronics, if you can get the pro version a semi decent motor (from my experience) and fairly decent parts support in North America plus the option of getting everything in graphite if your little heart desires, and being able to interchange a lot of parts with a Losi.

To Bassguitar:
I didn't realise how far away Streetsville is. I'm in Peterborough so it's on the other side of TO. There are some good ones on this side of TO. A good one is Galaxy Hobby http://www.galaxyhobby.ca/
It's just a small place, but he's got lots crammed in there and good tamiya ranges and mostly electric, well about 50% electric.

[bassguitar]

From the peter-patch Streetsville is quite a bit further. There's one in Unionville too which is much closer to Peterborough as it's northeast of Downtown http://www.ajhobby.com/ @ about 407/Kennedy Rd. Same deal - crammed in, but lots of stuff.

[Helgaiden]

i agree, the evader seems to take the cake here but i figure the XTM puts up a fight, especially if you can make a front chassis brace for it. Same for the Thunder Tiger, with full ball bearings, its probably one of the more capable ones on the list.