Waiting for Mamba Monster

[GSMnow]

I guess the title sums it up. I am 80% complete with my 1/8 buggy electric conversion. I just need the right motor to make it go.

I have been testing the drive train with a brush motor to make sure it will at least work for a bit when the brushless goes in. I have determnined without a doubt that a 36mm dia brush motor CANNOT push a 1/8 buggy. I tried a few differnt motors. I had several non replaceable brush units from various cordless tools. Many rated for the 14.8 volts of 4S LiPo. When I geared it to go over 20 mph, the motors quit. The brush springs loose tensions, the comm turns blue, and the windings turn black. Today, I finally got frustrated, and just wanted to see what I could make it do. I don't race any of my brush motors any more, so they were just gathering dust. I took a near new condition (but 15 years old) Twister 19 turn double wind 540 motor that I used to use for slick track racing. With 19 turns and 0 timing, it revved very nicely on 4S LiPo. I put in the smallest pinion I could find, a 14 to the 96 spur I stuck in there. It sure is spinning the tires much faster than any of the surplus motor. It also has heat sinked brush hoods and ball bearings. First pull of the trigger was a big WHOO HOO!. It bolted to 25-30 mph with the front tires breaking loose. I didn't expect this type of performance shoving around over 8 pounds o buggy. I rolled it up to top speed for a couple passes and did a temp check. The batteries and ESC are fine, the motor is about 135. Not too bad. I figured I would rip a few more passes and feel out the chassis now that it is actually fast enough to make the body lean. I would say I was running just over a minute when I tossed it into a tighter turn, and it spun out about a 180. I pulled back into the trigger and it spun the front tires, got the mass moving forwards instead of back, made it 3 feet or so, and POOF!!! smoke poured out of the poor little twister motor. I am sure glad I didn't try my Mamba Max 5700 in this thing. I bet the result may have been close. The torque needed to throw around the mass is just huge. I keep looking at a Feigao to use with a Mamba Max, but I think I just need to wait it out and get the Monster. It is obvious that the power demand is not double the 1/10 truck, it is more like 5 times the demand. That twister motor used to throw around a 3.5 pound buggy like nothing. So the buggy is going to sit and wait until the MMM is available. I will just plan out what gear I need to get for it. 35-40 mph with a 2200 KV motor on 4S LiPo.

[SpEEdyBL]

Yeah it certainly is amazing how much power it seems to take to run a 8 lb buggy. I used to run the Mamba max with a feigao 8xl and 9L on 4s and regardless of how i geared it, the mm would get to at least 160 in 5 minutes, even on 3s. I wasn't running a fan, or an extra cap, but i didn't need to when running my 380c 9t on 3s in my xxx4, which btw was much faster than either 1/8 setup, except for the 8xl geared with a 20t pinion gear (8:1 FDR) which heated both the motor and esc to 195 degrees in 5 minutes.

Theoretically, it shouldn't take more than twice the power to run an 8th scale vehicle, since there isn't double the wind resistance and not more than two times the rototing mass. (the 1/8 tires seem to weigh exacty twice as much as my xxx4 tires). It could be that 1/8 scale vehicles handle much better and can take much higher speeds, which will cause you to use more throttle, and therefore more power in addition to the power needed to carry the extra weight.

[GSMnow]

I wonder if there might be a square factor in there?
Since it weighs twice as much, it needs 4 times the power??
I melted down that poor Twister 19 turn mod motor in under a minute of actual driving. I opened up both motors for an inspection, and the damage was insane. The twister melted about 25% of the com bars away on the trailing edges, and wire was all black, ans come was bubbled up when the winds shorted. The brushes melted to 1/2 length. The long can motor lost over 1/2 of it's brushes, and the nylon blocks that hold the brushes were blackened around the metal parts that carry the current. A wind was thrown out and showed signs of hitting the magnets.

The real amazing part is that I tan the long can motor on 12 NiMh cells for almost 5 minutes and it was still fine. It got hot but lived. On the LiPos, it went up in smoke. Those little 3000HV cells can really crank out the amps.

[Muck]

I'm running a MM with a fan in a Losi 8, 4s Neu 1512 2700kv the gearing is I think 46/12. I have no heat problems what so ever. The hottest thing is the motor at 135*F after a 20 minute run. A good motor really makes a difference. I don't think I will even switch it to the MMM. I'll reserve the MMM to bigger stuff like 1/8 truggies. Unless I need to go to higher # of cells.

[Robman]

Where online can you find a monster max? None of the hobby web sites list it for preorder.

Thanks

[ElectricThunder]

It's not out yet.

[Ball Racing]

The pure current killed that 540 can
I run them in Clod busters,
and 4s li-po,
except 15 turns

Well, The problem I had is throwing the winds, no matter who hand built them..........
I put one on the ground after blipping the throttle in the air once,
and in 5 foot it threw a wind, and lock-up...

Others went for a pack or two only to wear the brushes down in that time.

We used to run 12 cells, and that was the borderline point,
but the current of 4 s li-po is just lighting bolts to the 540 motors...

[starluckrc]

You haven't tried a good brushed motor. A good brushed motor will cost as much or more than it's brushless counterpart........Mega, Pletenberg, etc.

[GSMnow]

That is exactly why I am waiting for the Mamba Monster. Why spend $300 on a brush motor to take this power, when you can have brushless? I was hoping a large cheap brush motor would at least let me get some testing done until the Monster comes out. And I found out cheap motors can't take over 300 watts, even for a 5 minute run.

[Colby066]

With CC offering a 25% off everything in March, we wont see the MMM until mid to late April at the earliest.

[SeanF]

Just a guess?

[glassdoctor]

Discount price in March has nothing to do with it. (they make more profit that way than selling to distributors/hobby stores)

But don't expect it until sometime in April anyway....

[SeanF]

I am not going to expect it until July unless there is an update from a castle creations associate.

[Ball Racing]

You haven't tried a good brushed motor. A good brushed motor will cost as much or more than it's brushless counterpart........Mega, Pletenberg, etc.

who hasn't?
I bought armertures from a well known "drag" motor guy,and killed them in less than a few minutes.

THey cost plenty too.................

[SpEEdyBL]

he's not talking about the 540 stuff thats all over the place. There are specialized brushed motors made by plane companies that could be ~$200. They are usually awkward shaped and don't fit Roars specs, but they run more efficiently, handle more voltage and power, and dont require as much maintenance. They could fit in a 1/8 buggy, but there is no point in buying one unless it's what you already have, which is why you don't see them in rc-cars.

[GSMnow]

When I was at All Electronics (surpluss place, they are on the web) I looked over the motor selection, and I really splurged. I picked up a Buhler brush motor. It is about 40 mm around, maybe 90 mm long. It is onlyu a 2 pole can, but a 7 pole arm with proper hooded brushes with coil springs. It was wound for 36 volts, so at 4S it was too darn slow. I did a quicky re-wind to bring up the Kv a bit, but it just does not make any torque. I don't get it, the magnets seem strong, and I wound it with some pretty heavy wire. I got it up to 11 amps, and I could still stall it with my fingers. Oh well, it was only 9 bucks and 2 hours of re-winding. It even has a 4mm shaft and a large front ball bearing. I really thought it was going to work, Oh Well.

I WANT MY MONSTER MAX

[ElectricThunder]

Did you change the wire gauge? I would imagine that less turns with the same wire gauge still means more resistance, so less current draw capabilities and therefore less torque?

[Demon-TC3]

are you sure you have wound it correctly? i.e gone the correct way with the windings?


also, try taking two wires rather than one arround the windings (as a Double motor would...) that would increase the strength of the magnetic coil and increase current to the motor.


take care,
Demon

[GSMnow]

The motor had 52 turns of 24 to 26 gauge on it. I re-did it with just 17 turns of 8 strands of 26 gauge in parallel. That works out to the DC resistance of a 17 gauge wire. I tried to double wind it with 18 gauge (equal to 15) but the slots (7 of them) were to thin to get the fat wire to lay down in there. I single wound it with the 26 gauge to try a few different winding patterns for the 7 slot, even copying the factory wind, which really sucked to do, and nothing seemed to improve the response. I think it has to do with the 7 pole arm just being more for smoothness than raw power. It is also skewed for zero cogging. Also making it harder to wind with fat wires. I really thought the 8 strand would do it, but no luck. I have a fresh Johnson 3 pole arm that has a stack about 60% longer than a standard 540. I adapted the end bell from the Twister 540 that I burned up. So I hope to re-wind this one as a 15 to 19 turn with a double strand of the 18 gauge and it will have real brushes now. The big problem is the 15 volt drive to only a 3 slot comm makes for a ton of arcing. This is the same as the motor I was using at first, and in stock form it worked pretty well, but it melted the brushes, so I am thinking with the real end bell on it, it may actually run for a few minutes.

I really want the Monster Max. Of course, I will then need a new chassis to handle the power.

[garchpaul]

I am patiently waiting for the Monster Max also and this is what its going in...

[killermmn]

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w298/killermmn/image.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w298/killermmn/image2-2.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w298/killermmn/image3-3.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w298/killermmn/image4-4.jpg

the prototype of mmm at ihobby 2007
i want to look the final product!!

[vashon10]

Looks like 10 ga pipes.

[chewie]

see the pic of it without case. id be PERFECTLY FINE with that
lol
cmon castle. PLEASE?!

[killermmn]

me too i want one!!!
castle have to realese this soon!!

[GordonFreeman]

http://www.naturesongs.com/cricket1.wav

[killermmn]

joe from castle said one thing is missing
the cases for esc !!

[GTX]

Yeah they should be out soon. We'll see.

[killermmn]

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w298/killermmn/mmm2.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w298/killermmn/mmm1.jpg

what is that:eek:

[Demon-TC3]

where on earth did you get those pics from?


if i didnt know better i would say it might be the MMM - although, the MMM was supposed to come prewired with 10Awg wire so im unsure...


take care,
Demon

[GSMnow]

Those are the pics Patrick Del C. posted as a sneak peak of the MMM. It LIVES!! Those are 6mm bullet connectors to take #10 gauge wire. Very nice to have the wires plug into the ESC like that. Makes it very easy to make the wires any length you want. I am still not holding my breath, but it is actually starting to look like it is coming soon.

[E-LST]

I just got a blue nemisis brushless (xlt7) and a CChydra 120 esc, for about $300 for both, from fine design rc, and put them in my muggy with a 4s. 10.5 pounds race ready and will out accellerate an 1/8 buggy, and get about 15 minutes race time on a 5000mah pack. The last time I ran the motor finished at 130 deg, the esc was 105 and the lipo was 95. Just my .02 but it works fine

[Demon-TC3]

Ok, for 300 bucks you have gotten an esc that can handle just over HALF of what the monster max can handle as well as getting what is essentially a feigao motor over what is essentially an NEU motor. for the same sort of price you would have gotten the monster max package (WHEN it comes out mind you...) which is i guess what most people are waiting for.


take care,
Demon

[E-LST]

Sure did, and it's IN my truck running!!!!

[ElectricThunder]

Do you use mechanical brakes on that setup?

[E-LST]

yes, I do use the mechanical brakes because the esc being for marine use originally does not have a brake, you can get a reverse tho.

[GordonFreeman]

Back on topic, Horizon says mid June. And what happened to the pictures killer? Did big brother get to you?

[killermmn]

there were old!!
so a delete them!!
man look like a summer upgrade for my e-maxx!!

[PatrickdelC]

Pre-release sales are now available for dealers and users. We will be shipping in the first and second weeks of May.

Patrick

[garchpaul]

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0095P?FVSEARCH=LNUWH2&search=Go

Could this be right?????
169.99
Adjusted price for us waiting so long???

[Demon-TC3]

i think that price is more or less correct isnt it? there was a retail of about 200 so its not hugely far off considering Tower is selling...

[garchpaul]

I guess I just thought it would be more...don't get me wrong I love it...I just thought it would be 300.00...Now I am going to buy one for my Revo and one for my new Emaxx...and I guess one for the new ERevo...Wow I will really be broke...

[killermmn]

170 is the esc only
300 is a complete system,motor plus esc

[garchpaul]

Oh ok that makes sense....

[killermmn]

now my question do a get a mmm system or erevo this summer!?!?

[ElectricThunder]

170 for what the ESC is capable of is a good deal. The new Quarks are probably going to be over 200 dollars for the higher current ones (125B).

Looks like Castle is beating out the competition with such a damn good price!

[Demon-TC3]

lol indeed - thats an unbeleiveable price indeed...maybe time to get rid of the 9920?


take care,
Demon

[garchpaul]

now my question do a get a mmm system or erevo this summer!?!?

BOTH!!!

[killermmn]

BOTH!!!


i cant man,but this combo is really great:cool:

[tireshredder]

Hi,
I have no idea how they do it! Years ago CC made my electric planes hilariously powerful and affordable. I have lots of cars and currently not much time for going to the flying field. I just got a SideWinder 4600 and put it in my XXXT MF1, it is just crazy fast and smoked the diff in 30 minuets. (My fault) didn’t check it and didn’t hear it start to slip running with nitro cars.

SideWinder 4600 XXXT MF1 18-78 w/ little 2-5/8” foam tires
On asphault, Tight road course, End of full run, about 13-14 min.
6c IB4200s 125F – soon to try 3s LiPo
ESC 102F
Motor CM4600 138F

With the US economy and exchange rates CC will totally own the US market on this! FUN/$$$=CC!

As always – 1/8th cars are still waiting for MMM! If you cant wait – you can always pay more now for a lot less. I will continue waiting, waiting, and waiting…..waiting…………still waiting…….

Later