Is Modeling really dead?

[Mode One]

If you look through the magazines on R/C today, you can't help but come away with the feeling that ARFs so dominate R/C, that nobody is building anymore! However, when I come here to the R/C Forums, I get the feeling that building from Kits and scratch is alive and well!

My own AMA District V.P. has stated just this past month in his monthly column: No one is building anymore!

I know this topic has been discussed many times here and elsewhere. I also feel the R/C press would not be displaying and paying so much heed to ARFs, if this wasn't where the market lays.

When I started, if you wanted to be in this hobby, you pretty much had to build. I built Free flight rubber power and gliders when very young, so building was something I did, enjoyed greatly and still do!

It really bothers me that the kit is basically gone! I derive such pleasure from building, that if good balsa was no longer available for scratch building, I'd find something else to do with my free time.

In my own club, I feel safe in saying that about 1/4th to 1/3rd of the members build regularly. Maybe 1/4th 1/3rd of the members never build and don't assemble ARFs and only buy built airplanes at Auctions.

What do you think about this and what do you feel the ratios might be at your club? Maybe by looking at this thing from the club level, we can get a better understanding of: Is building really dead?

[Mode One]

19 views and no commenets? What gives?

[Mode One]

27 views and no comments! Why would you visit a thread and not make comment?

[dnkehl]

Mode one,

Are you still out there?

This is the first time I have visited and I will make a comment. I got back into this hobby after 20 some years away and I have only(built) my planes I get ideas from reading the forums and go from there. I now have one done two that I am working on and two in the scrap pile. I will say that when I get comfortable with flying again I will probley look into an ARF.

[Mode One]

This forum is used very little, that's for sure!

[dnkehl]

Yes I agree. When I get a chance I will go thru and try to get things going but it seems that everybody is shy about asking or answering a thread. Maybe someday this forum will take off. What if any projects are you working on?

[Tarasdad]

Like the poster above I have been away from the hobby for quite a while, in my case about 15 years. There have been some huge changes in the hobby since then, that's for sure. The predominance of ARF aircraft is a big one. When I was still flying ARF kits were few and far between, whereas these days it seems to be the stick-built kits that are rare and hard to find. Guess it goes with the rest of the instant gratification mindset that is so prevalent these days. Such a shame, really, since a significant portion of the enjoyment I got from flying was watching the product of my labors take to the sky.

[Marsellaise]

We've been helping some of the more dedicated hobbyists and a few of the kit manufacturers get accurate documentation for their various projects so from our point of view, modelling is not dead.

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/FLUG-ARCHIV-20_Blueprint-Multi-CD_W0QQLHQ5fBINZ1QQ_fsubZ13QQ_sidZ119633348QQ_trks idZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322

http://www.manualsontheweb.com/

[jwaj2002]

well what it is I believe is the fact that people are working more and don't have the time/energy to build, or the know how, but even with an arf you would have to repair eventually, most people are comfortable repairing and not building, but after they repair their craft for a while they'll eventually wander towards building


and if your new arf or rtr is the way to go simply because if you crash it alot of the trainers don't cost as much as a kit would cost + build time

[dnkehl]

I have not compared the price of a kit to an arf. Does anyone have the numbers on this? Also, how does the price of an rtf and a arf compare? I know that this is a difficult thing to compare because of the radio and components. And there is a difference between what is included in the arf planes. How can we do this in a fair way?

[jwaj2002]

well most RTR's use standard (brand name) equipment, and used to be alot of RTR's were also offered as ARF's

[dnkehl]

I need some help with this one.

RTF= ready to fly
ARF= almost ready to fly
RTR=

please fill in the blank.

[jwaj2002]

RTF is RTR

[dnkehl]

Thank you but now I have to ask what does the R stand for?

[PipesCS]

I have built since 1965 and will say that the hobby while not dead has redefined itself continually.

In the last two years I have completed three designs and must say even I like to use a kit cutter to make it move along faster in the shop.

I have tried to give the plans away on all three designs and found very few takers.

I also build model ships where there is still a large builders group. Some of the arguments are sad. Some will say a scratch built is only if you drew the plans and cut every part. Next they will argue that the wood had to come from a tree that your grew and cut down.

As the ARF industry takes a beating during the current economic time it will be interesting to see what model airplane types do to keep flying.

[dnkehl]

First of all thanks for your 2 cents. Now I have some questions. I have only built or made my wings from foam so I am not familiar with a kit cutter. Can you give us some more info on that. My definition of scratch is any plane built from what you have at home. I have a 3 ring binder full of other peoples plans. I like to take the best features from several different planes and see what I can do with them. If you can please attach your plans so we can see them.

[PipesCS]

:wave::wave::wave:My experiance with Kit Cutters is probably more than most modelers today have delt with. The one great factor of a laser or machine cut short kit is that if they are done right the fit of the parts is awsome.:D

There are quite a few kit cutters are out there with most of them offering short kits with only a few offering full kits.

:teacher:They tend to offer planes that are popular from know designers (Ziroli, Trittle, Rake, etc.). They are looking to sell as many shortkits as possible as there is no magic software that takes a set of inked plans and produces the cut files for all the parts to be cut. The parts are laid out using a CAD program requireing a lot of trace or conversion work. Most plans have error that the cutter has to work out. If He cuts the plans as drawn without checking them, He will get the blame no matter how bad the original plans were drawn. :teacher:

Some will take a set of plans from you and cut a short kit. The problem here is that the cutters time is valuable. If he charges thirtyfive dollars an hour to take and develop a short kit for a plane he either has to charge you all the cost or be able to plan on selling a lot of other kits. If you want a one off kit of some strange bird that has no market value it can be expensive and may not be worth the cutters time. I sent Top Notch Products in Tennesse a set of plans for a .90 sized Boeing F4B biplane. Cost for the 90 some odd ribs and bulkheads was 125.00. Totol parts count was 175 plywood and balsa parts. I have been told this is expensive by modelers who cut all their parts from stock. Yes it is but not when you consider it was a custom piece of work.



But I have little time these days to work in the shop and enjoy the tight fitting parts. A few years back I built a Pitts Special that Nick Ziroli designed in 1967. Took me a month of spare time to cut the parts. I have sent a comprable sized design of my own to a cutter, had the parts in a week and the model framed up and ready for covering in a week.


Some kit cutters offer kits that were originally CAD designed for the laser cutting. They tend to be the best kits available today but can be a little pricy. I have bought short kits from Manzano Laser and find his work to be great on the Model Z by MadRob and Peter Rakes models.


One other dealing I have had with kit cutters is taking a design from scratch and having your own kits cut.

I have had good results with John Valentine at Top Notch Products. He is located in Tennessee and accepts my CAD drawings which he has taken the time to teach me to develope. I have all the parts layed out in a file that is Emailed to him. I only have to pay for his cut time and the cost of materiels.

You could do the same with paper scetchs but they would be more expensive unless you can sell the cutter on it being marketable.

These are photos of the first effort he worked with me on. It is a PT-19 with a forty inch span. Total cost with plans is around 50.00. It is a little more than a short kit as he is trying to put it more into the full kit arena.

As I am not a pro by any means I give my plans away by email and send the cut files to John with my permission to sell all he can to help him make ends meet.

I will say from talking to both Charlie at Manzano and John at Top Notch, niether getting rich on this. In this market today I am impressed they are surviving at all.:wave::wave::wave:

[jwaj2002]

somewhere I have a few discs full of cad plans

I've got a few plans for planes I'd love to build just can't afford to do it, a large scale c130 hercules with a near 10' wing span, and a really nice set of plans for a corsair, both require a few hundred bucks worth of ply

[dnkehl]

PipeCS,

I know that I am not the only one learning from this. I thought that a kit cutter was somthing on your work bench not someone you have lay out the pattern on balsa and ply. When you have somthing lazer cut does that mean that you can press out the pieces or do you still have to cut them out? I would like to hear from someone else on this but with their permission can you give us the contact info on Charlie and John so we can contact them to see what they have available. One more quick question please tell us what the difference is between a short kit and a full kit?

[PipesCS]

The two shops I have delt with are:

Top Notch Products
PO Box 1051
Goodlettsville, TN 37070
Ph 615-866-4327
tnPRODUCTS@cs.com
Web Site: http://www.topnotchkits.com/index_files/TN_Kit2.htm

Manzano Laser
Ph (505) 286-2640
charlie@manzanolaser.com
Web site: http://www.manzanolaser.com/index.html

They both do great work and are very quick in delivery. :D

I am sure they would like to do business with anyone that calls in these hard time.

I have bought kits from Manzano Laser which were very good. He does the kits for Peter Rakes light WWI types of note. I have had more dealings with John at Top Notch as he was willing to help me develope my own designs and cut prototypes for me. That means a lot when you are talking taking time out from production to do a one off.

What you get in a laser cut short kit is the ribs and bulkheads still attached to the sheet by small nibs of wood cause by the designer putting breaks in the lines to turn the laser off in that area. It is equivelent to the TABs in the older die cut kits.

The difference in a short kit and a full kit is that you do not get any of the sticks, hardware, wheels or sheet wood needed to plank out the kit. Only the ribs, bulkheads.

That being said. Short kits may vary. I call my PT 19 a short kit but it has over 300 parts in it. I designed it to use mostly cut parts for the newbe builder that does not have a lot of the tools needed to truely scratch out a model form planks.

[dnkehl]

Thank you for the information. I learned alot about lazer cutting and how kits come from the cutters. I would also incourage everyone to take a look at these web sights. There are some cool plans there.

[PipesCS]

For anyone that might be a builder I will email them plans for the PT-10, Model D Gee Bee or the Model Y Gee Bee. The build alongs are in the scratch building area of this forum.

Plans are free to a good home. Send me a PM on this site with your email address and I will send the three sets of plans. You can have them printed locally at places like Kinko's on 36 inch paper.

Just trying to keep the art alive.

[glowplug]

OK boys here it comes. As most of you can tell by my age Ive been around for a while and have watch RC grow and die depending on the decade. But what is happening now is always the main topic at our flying field. Ive been flying for 35 years and I always prided myself on trying new thing and teaching as many people to fly as my time would allow. Ive had the pleasure of meeting a wonderful young new flyer at our field and when I asked him who was his instructor he said Chewey. I trained Chewey 15 years ago and now he's the instructor at his local field. I an very proud. What dose this have to do with this tread? When I trained chewey he was 15 and broke. I gave him a radio and plane because he was such a good young pilot I didn't what hime to get away. The prob for him was the cost of our beloved hobby. When I started just like every one back in the OLD DAYS "as new student put it" you spent alot and you built or you didn't fly. As Time passed the price went down WAY Down and really good ARFs hit the market and we saw RC bloom in the mid 80s into what it is today. {ARF/GOOD**. Now I know what I'm about to say next is going ruffel a few feathers but hey it ME. I rue the day I heard the word LIPO . This single change to our hobby has takin control and dominates all mags online stores and local hobby shops. And the cost has sky rocketed. I had a 14 yr old last month that showed up at the field with the things he had bought at the local shop and oh yes it was lipo. I know the owner of this place and fly with him so we will not mention the name of the store. Now this boy had a well to do father so this is not all bad but they had over 600$ invested and all they had was a toy. He sold them a toy cub that flew like crap but he did have 4 63$ battiers for it and a 150 dollar charger. Is this insane or is it just me. Remember those good arf glow models I ***** about earlier there still here but they get no press compared to LIPO. Now don't get me wrong I own LIPOs "notice the caps each time" but they are not ready for prime time. They have an entire mag deadicated to these things. And I hear it all the time how someone would love to do this but it cost so much . These are thing I have not heard for 10 yr. In a glow plane I can have a studet in the air for 250$ and he can fly all day for 10 in glow fuel. My god I was online looking for a new plane and they were selling styro for 300$ and you still needed batts and charger. Now look Im not some old coger crying about the good old days here hell I love where were at I just don't like where were going. If things keep up the way they are we will be back to the day when you didnt go to the field for less then a grand and every thing flew crappy. Remember I said I own LIPOs I have a 80" glider and a blade 400 heli and both are lipo. I have more in the blade in batts then my entire 60 size p-51 and I have bought batts for the heli and they were doa before I opened the package. This really happened Eflite batts. And Oh by the way when I get my glow planes(13) ready for a day at the field I dont have to worrie there going to burn down my House. This has all been a good marketing job on behalf of the companys selling this and our mags bending to the money they bring to the table. So now I pick up a mag that I have trusted for more years then I care to admit and Its full of over priced toys and poor flying models that just does our hobby no good when some one invests that kind of money and you can,t even learn to fly with it. This is a nitch market that has been over blow for profit. And by the way if you dont believe me go on ebay and look up the guy selling 1800 3s 20c lipos for 15 dollars and read what he says is happening. I own 6 of his batts and you can't tell the diff between his and e-flight So why dose theres cost 65 dollars. Its a scam plane and simple. And a few folks are getting rich at the cost of RCs continued growth and overall heath. Im nobody but if there is someone out there that can state this case better then me and has the platform to do it from DO IT! Chris Chianelli I hope you hear me up there.RIP (I miss him). Off topic whos idea was it to have a 12 yr old doing his show it blows I cant even watch it because its just a long commercial for who ever paid there advertising bill that month. that right I said it. In closing I just say lets use the stuff that work old or new and lets put the folks out there selling crap out of biz by not buying from them. And if model air plane news takes offence to any thing Ive said there new ED can look me up I have a few words for her too. later Boys Ron