Novak motor explainations (crawler, rotors, timing)

[GordonFreeman]

What exactly make a crawler motor a crawler motor? (rotor, timing?)

What is the effect of using different size rotors? (power, speed, torque, heat?)

What is the effect of changing the timing of the endbell? (power, speed, torque, heat?)

[kufman]

Larger rotor = more torque, more power, and supposedly less heat.

More timing = more power, more speed, more torque, more heat.

[GordonFreeman]

More dumb questions:

Will a larger rotor tend to spin slower? Just trying to get a handle on why all
the different rotor sizes are available. I remember sticking a Fiegao rotor in a Novak can and it wouldn't run, too big of a rotor and too strong of a magnet for what the ESC was expecting I guess. It was like a full size sintered rotor.

Can it be quantified such as a 12.5mm rotor will spin 4% slower than a 12mm and have 4% more torque? Seems that would kind of end up even for power.

I'm guessing the only difference in the "crawler" motor is the rotor size.

Is changing the timing equivalent to changing gears. If so, when would you want to change gears and when would you want to change timing? Can it be quantified such as 10 degrees is 1 tooth on the pinion? (or some percentage geat ratio change, or some percentage of top RPM)

Just trying to wrap my head around all this black magic. People at the track (onroad) are playing with these things on there ESCs now and I don't think a one of them really knows what they are doing. Reminds me of the early days when people found out you could "crank" the timing on the Novak motors. Did they know what they were doing back then? Probably not. They just like the idea of cranking the timing up.

How do Novaks ESCs timing work. Is it fixed or does it vary with RPM (that would seem like a good plan to me). What I'm getting at is these Tekin ESCs have a "turbo" mode that supposedly does something with the timing (advance it) under certain conditions. Supposedly this is "THE" ESC to get right now. Although I've heard that on smaller tracks it makes very little difference. Is Novak coming out with anything new in the ESC department? Escpecially something that is firmware updateable and computer programmable. Am I partial to Novak, probably a little bit.:) But I like the way the Castle stuff has been updateable now for years.

Thanks

[NovakTwo]

Ballistic Motor Timing Information Update

In an effort to answer a number of questions relating to motor timing we have compiled some information to help you better understand static motor timing and its effects with our Ballistic Series of motors.

“How many Degrees of Timing does my Ballistic Motor have?”

Our Ballistic motors come with their timing calibrated and set from the factory. Using custom built and calibrated electronic equipment we set each and every motor to 30 degrees of timing. After Calibration the timing label is added and this set timing corresponds to the “N” on the timing label on the side

Each line on the label denotes a 5 degree change, so the timing available on the motor the label corresponds as follows:

-3 -2 -1 N +1 +2 +3
15 20 25 30 35 40 45

N = 30 (rows do not line up correctly)

SPECIAL NOTE: The timing we are describing is the ACTUAL ELECTRICAL TIMING in the motor, not just some arbitrarily reference made from a point on the outside of the motor like many of our competitors' motors. This makes comparing timing settings between different brands of motors difficult without the proper equipment.

“What Does Timing Adjustment do?”

We set our timing at an optimized point for most general applications. Adjusting the timing should only be done in small increments and with great care to observe the changes in system performance and temperatures.

Ballistic Motor Timing Information Update (Preliminary)

In an effort to answer a number of questions relating to motor timing we have compiled some information to help you better understand static motor timing and its effects with our Ballistic Series of motors.

“How many Degrees of Timing does my Ballistic Motor have?”

Our Ballistic motors come with their timing calibrated and set from the factory. Using custom built and calibrated electronic equipment we set each and every motor to 30 degrees of timing. After Calibration the timing label is added and this set timing corresponds to the “N” on the timing label on the side

Each line on the label denotes a 5 degree change, so the timing available on the motor the label corresponds as follows:

-3 -2 -1 N +1 +2 +3
15 20 25 30 35 40 45

N = 30 (rows do not line up correctly)

SPECIAL NOTE: The timing we are describing is the ACTUAL ELECTRICAL TIMING in the motor, not just some arbitrarily reference made from a point on the outside of the motor like many of our competitors' motors. This makes comparing timing settings between different brands of motors difficult without the proper equipment.

“What Does Timing Adjustment do?”

We set our timing at an optimized point for most general applications. Adjusting the timing should only be done in small increments and with great care to observe the changes in system performance and temperatures.

We do not recommend running zero degrees of timing for most applications and would recommend running at least 5 degrees of timing to ensure proper operation of the motor.

NOTE: When running your timing lower than the pre-set factory 30 degrees your reversing function of your Novak ESC may not work properly as it accounts for this 30 degrees of timing in its commutation sequence.

To adjust the motor to this lower 5 degree timing setting:

1. Loosen the three 1.5 mm hex head screws on the back timing cap of the motor

2. Turn the end-cap clockwise until the stationary notch on the endbell lines up with the edge of the label as demonstrated in the picture below.

[Photos will appear on web-site when we add this update]

3. Re-tighten the three 1.5 mm hex head screws in a circular pattern to ensure that they are all tightened evenly.

[NovakTwo]

Our current Crawling motors---the SS Pro versions---have a different sensor assembly, so they are designed for crawling only and require a Crawling esc. Our 14mm rotor was initially introduced as a tuning rotor for crawling applications. So I'm not sure how many racers would add them for other uses.

Our new Ballistics are completely rebuildable, (http://www.shopatron.com/products/category/Ballistic+Motor/135.0.1.1.56.56692.0.0.0) so racers can customize them in several different ways. I posted our Ballistic timing info above to clarify the adjustments.

Our current ESCs do not have the advanced timing adjustments; our upcoming AT controllers are still being tested and will offer timing and our new PC interface.

We have had serious reservations about the AT escs on the market; we are seeing many, many burnt motor stators from overheating motors. Many users do not adjust the timing properly and overheat the motors, vaporizing wire insulation which shorts the windings----thus destroying the stator and demagnetizing the rotor material.

But, advanced timing is what racers' want. With our new Ballistic style motors, the users can replace the damaged stators without returning motors to the factory for service.

Gordon, any time you have questions, you can email tech@teamnovak.com for answers.

[GSMnow]

Another answer I think you wanted, adding timing does give a bit more power, but at lower efficiency, which is why it makes more heat, with the resulting burnt stators if not done with care.

Most older sensored systems use a fixed timing, and therefore drive very similar to a brushed system, but at a higher power level in most cases. Dynamic timing, if done right, is capable if giving much better efficiency, especially at low rpm where high static timing would just make a lot of heat. As rpm climbs, the timing increase helps compensate for the time it takes for the magnetic field to build afte the ESC switches the power to the next winding. There are trade offs. If not done well, this can lead to more motor heating, and/or a "spongy" throttle feel, almost like a turbo coming on and adding power, even when you are just holding a steady finger. More power is not always faster, especially on a technical course where precise power is more important. I have driven several different brushless systems, both sensored and sensorless, with and without dynamic timing. I like the feel of a sensored with mild dynamic advance the best, fixed timing just feels like it is held back on the fastest sections. Going to a faster motor makes up for it, but it then runs hotter and uses more battery. Sensorless with aggressive dynamic timing was by far the most powerful, but very hard to keep under control on a tight track. Using a spec 13.5 motor was very interesting. Using a Mamba Max with the timing dialed up a bit gave great power with excellent driveability, easilly running as strong as any sensore system, but the start up from a stand still was horrible, costing me at least one position in the race. Using the same motor on a sensored ESC (tried both Losi and novak motors, with both novak and Losi ESC's) just didn't have the range of power. They started great, but once up to moderate speed, they felt so sluggish compared to the Mamba Max ESC. No gearing or timing setting cam even close to the feel I got with the MAmba Max. I can't wait to try the new pro that will use the sensors to get it rolling. That first 3 feet from a stop just SUCKED on the Mamba Max classic.

Not bad mouthing the Novaks at all, They do drive very nice, I just want a tick more power. Running more fixed timing just made way too much heat. Thermal shut down at 4 minutes is also no fun, but it does save you money over a fried stator. The MM 13.5 combo ran a solid 15 minutes without topping 180F while going faster. Good dynamic timing is very efficient.

[Grizzbob]

Another answer I think you wanted, adding timing does give a bit more power, but at lower efficiency, which is why it makes more heat, with the resulting burnt stators if not done with care.

Most older sensored systems use a fixed timing, and therefore drive very similar to a brushed system, but at a higher power level in most cases. Dynamic timing, if done right, is capable if giving much better efficiency, especially at low rpm where high static timing would just make a lot of heat. As rpm climbs, the timing increase helps compensate for the time it takes for the magnetic field to build afte the ESC switches the power to the next winding. There are trade offs. If not done well, this can lead to more motor heating, and/or a "spongy" throttle feel, almost like a turbo coming on and adding power, even when you are just holding a steady finger. More power is not always faster, especially on a technical course where precise power is more important. I have driven several different brushless systems, both sensored and sensorless, with and without dynamic timing. I like the feel of a sensored with mild dynamic advance the best, fixed timing just feels like it is held back on the fastest sections. Going to a faster motor makes up for it, but it then runs hotter and uses more battery. Sensorless with aggressive dynamic timing was by far the most powerful, but very hard to keep under control on a tight track. Using a spec 13.5 motor was very interesting. Using a Mamba Max with the timing dialed up a bit gave great power with excellent driveability, easilly running as strong as any sensore system, but the start up from a stand still was horrible, costing me at least one position in the race. Using the same motor on a sensored ESC (tried both Losi and novak motors, with both novak and Losi ESC's) just didn't have the range of power. They started great, but once up to moderate speed, they felt so sluggish compared to the Mamba Max ESC. No gearing or timing setting cam even close to the feel I got with the MAmba Max. I can't wait to try the new pro that will use the sensors to get it rolling. That first 3 feet from a stop just SUCKED on the Mamba Max classic.

Not bad mouthing the Novaks at all, They do drive very nice, I just want a tick more power. Running more fixed timing just made way too much heat. Thermal shut down at 4 minutes is also no fun, but it does save you money over a fried stator. The MM 13.5 combo ran a solid 15 minutes without topping 180F while going faster. Good dynamic timing is very efficient.

I agree, while I've always been a loyal Novak customer, I felt like I was being left behind by everyone running dynamic timing ESC's, so I finally decided to try the Tekins, & I have to say, I'm VERY impressed so far. While there are obvious risks to running extra timing, when used properly(right amounts at the right time, & with the right gearing), they do seem to offer better acceleration & top end & even run cooler to boot. Since I switched from GTB's to Tekin RS's, I've been running both 17.5 & 13.5 motors on them, & BOTH are now running cooler(by about 15 degrees over a 5 minute race), & I'm having an easier time balancing acceleration in the infield with good top end on the straight. I can see where inexperienced racers could ruin some motors by using it, but for those of us who know how to use it, I think the dynamic timing ESC's are the way to go.....:cool:

[rccardude04]

The tekin ESC is REALLY nice. Feels like a Mamba Max on top, but is nice and predictable/snappy like a GTB or any other sensored system off the line.

-Eric