Associated RC10B3 Forum v1.0

[LouisB]

If your club follows BRCA rules then 3300mAh cells will be legalised on 1st April this year. If you can race with whatever packs you bought for your tourer then wait until April to get new cells then do that. If you have to buy packs now then you can get 2400s very cheap, they should be fine for stock buggy:)

I wouldn't say that the Factory team graphite chassis was poor, and it would be hypocritical if Drescher said that as I'm pretty sure he and all AE team drivers run a graphite chassis. How can a stiffer, lighter chassis not be good?

[roberttatefan]

the chassis would/can be overly twitchy, and lighter isn't always better, you have would just have to re-add the weight you take off, so as for weight there is no advantage.

[GA Maxx]

Originally posted by LouisB
If your club follows BRCA rules then 3300mAh cells will be legalised on 1st April this year. If you can race with whatever packs you bought for your tourer then wait until April to get new cells then do that. If you have to buy packs now then you can get 2400s very cheap, they should be fine for stock buggy:)

I wouldn't say that the Factory team graphite chassis was poor, and it would be hypocritical if Drescher said that as I'm pretty sure he and all AE team drivers run a graphite chassis. How can a stiffer, lighter chassis not be good?

being only 16 and having to buy all my stuff my self i had to sell the 3300's to buy the car

Craig Dreschers exact words were

"Take you Graphite B3 chassis, and cut it up into so many small pieces that you can never use it again, then proceed to buy a team chassis"

This is also the verdict of every B3'er at my club, inc a national champ

Im going to order 4 sets of matched 2400's Vmax matched for about £150

I managed to get a pratically factory team B3 (team upgraded) without that stupid chassis for £70 :D Ive set £70 aside for set up

[LouisB]

I don't doubt that the standard chassis has advantages, as everyone at your club has discovered but I'm interested to know what they are:confused: My B3 seems to go fine with the graphite chassis, just the driving that lets me down;)

I mostly run 2400s in mod buggy, Orion and Integy. So they should be fine for stock.

£70 isn't bad for a team/FT B3:)

[GA Maxx]

nope i think il lorder 6 cpacks of team orion matched 2400's for £180, any idea on what stock motor?
The graphite chassis makes the car alot more aggresive, and dont forgot we are racing on a touring carpet track, for cars liek pro3's but the amount of fun is tremedous

[LouisB]

OK, I like my B3 aggressive because on the dirt track i race on most 2wds have a problem with understeer when the track is damp but my car is very responsive. That's the only time I win races, but when it's dry and dusty it does suffer from a little twitchiness. If I decide to continue with 2wd in the summer I may try the composite chassis, but i might get a 4wd:D and save the B3 for the winter.

[LouisB]

How big is the track? That's the most important factor in choosing a stocker. The Trinity P2K2 should be a safe bet but if the track is larger then a Monster stock may be better. I would think (but I've only raced mod on carpet) that because of the high grip levels on carpet you would wnat a high torque motor for best acceleration, ie P2K(2)

[GA Maxx]

yeah agresion is not the way on carpet, im thinking BRM i had to sell mien to buy the b3 as mone ywas tight, man that thing hauled, ill try a p2k2 and a moster

[GA Maxx]

ttt

[Mystracing]

Myself and most of the fast drivers I know run the plastic instead of the graphite chassis because we can't tell any difference handlingwise between the 2. However; eventually if you race a lot with a graphite chassis the battery pack wears through the foam and shorts out on the chassis. After that happens once in the middle of a race, the driver takes great joy in smashing the thing to pieces.

[GA Maxx]

come we cant let this thread die!

[desertgeek]

are you all going to get the B4?

[GA Maxx]

nope

[LouisB]

only when I can't win with my B3, or when it wears out.

[GA Maxx]

or when all its teething problems are fixed

[pudder]

.

[Mystracing]

I'm getting a B4 as soon as humanly possible.

[pudder]

I will probably get a FT B3 because prices will go down.

[GA Maxx]

y b3 was supposed t ocoem today but it didnt :@

[nelson8708]

I just bought some 3000 and I heard that they can be messed up by pulse charging them. I that true? I dont want to mess up my new batteries. I have a durtrax deluxe pulse charger with peak charging.

[pudder]

I don't know if you can mess up NIMH on pulse, but I know linear charging is highly reccomended. Are you sure you don't have a linear setting?

[nelson8708]

I am sure it is pulse charging. I have a durtrax intellipeak deluxe pluse charger.

[Xtreme7]

Does anyobody know where I can get any aluminum or any shiny metal parts for my B3?

[pudder]

Trinity makes a rear transmission brace, and Racer's Edge makes a front top plate and front hingepin brace.

All above parts are aluminum.

[kilrbzz]

Louis - Did you ever get your money back from Ti? I heard they had a factory fire and shut down for awhile. Sounds fishy. I'm still in search of a lighter outdrive that will hold up.

[LouisB]

kilrbzz, I got the money back:) , but they PROMISED, by phone, to send the outdrives for free (and e-mailed me saying I'd get a free pinion too)
I spoke to a Ti Racing employee on another forum and explained the situation, he said he would sort it out when the factory re-opened after the christmas holidays but instead there was a fire. Probably for insurance purposes. My guess is that they'll be closed for months, maybe years.
I'm not going to chase them up, it seems like a waste of time:(

[losixxx213]

I have an idea for lighter outdrives and drive shafts. get the losi sliders for a buggy and the plastic outdrives that come with it. the outdrive will hold up. I don't know if it will work, you might have to do some grinding on the sliders to get them to fit properly.

[clw]

Picked up a used B3--looked on the Associated site for setup info to get the car to a known baseline. Their setups are all old, mostly 1999, 2000 and 2001. Where's the new stuff?

Several of the setups there have a CUT blue front spring??? Is that a Losi spring or something?

Or just go back to the out of the box setup in the manual. I'll be on sandy clay tracks in Florida.

Thanks

[LouisB]

The B3 is an old car (but still fast) and the AE drivers have found all the set-ups that work:) If you can't find a set-up for your type of track then go with the stock set-up, it works.

The blue spring is AE, it's the stiffest front spring, stiffer than green and silver.

losixxx213, I don't think the outdrives are the same size. If the XXX outdrives are the same as on the XXX-S then they are definitely much larger than B3 outdrives and wouldn't fit.

[pudder]

I thought red was stiffest?

Losi outdrives won't fit, they are a lot larger than AE.

clw: just use the stock setup like Louis said if you can't find a good one for your track. I did that on my T3 because I race offroad on a fairly loose track, and different from the majority of the tracks in the US I'm sure. The stock setup worked pretty good for me, just make sure your buggy is sitting at good height, arms level in the front, axles level in the rear. :)

[adam lancia]

AE's stiffest spring is red, you're right pudder, but they don't make a red or gold front buggy spring. the stiffest front buggy spring they make is blue. as for why they used a cut blue spring, it might be because when you cut coils of a spring, it changes it's tension...maybe it made it perform in between a silver and a blue?? we could always email AE and ask.....

clw: there a few clay set ups on AE's site...don't be too concerned with how old they are, they work very well.

adam

[LouisB]

I read somewhere that Kinwald cut a couple of coils off his springs to make them more progressive. It could be to increase stability on high bite tracks.

race update: Last Sunday my car was really fast but i was a bit unlucky (or it could just be my driving). In the first round a ball cup popped off on the 2nd lap when I landed a jump a badly and then scooped up some mud so it couldn't be put back on. I was playing catch-up for the rest of qualifying but managed to get on to the back of the A grid. In the final I made a good start and stuck to the tail of the leaders, moving up to 3rd after a couple of laps. I then got taken out by lapped traffic and that set me back half a lap but i was still in 3rd. I caught back up to the leaders (my car was hooked up) just before the end of the race but then hte leader crashed. A marshal (about 6 years old) righted the leader's car and i went wide round the corner to avoid him, then he walked backwards without looking where he was going, tripped and sat on my car! It broke the rear shock tower:( and I was only 10 feet from the finish line, then the finish tone sounded. I finished 5th, but could have done better.

[Mystracing]

Actually when those blue front spring setups were developed Associated didn't make a blue front buggy spring. The base of that setup was developed in Rauma Finland in 99 by Pavidas and Masami. The reason for cutting the coils is because they are actually blue rear springs. They needed to be cut for obvious reasons.

I edited this post, I mistakenly thought that made for a much softer front spring, read the following posts to see what it does.

Just as a general comment because a lot of people assume all springs of the same color are the same rate. They aren't even close. Here are the actual spring rates.

Buggy and Truck Rear Springs
6481 Black 1.740 lb.
6480 Green 1.900 lb.
6478 Silver 2.100 lb.
7434 Blue 2.550 lb.
7435 Gold 2.750 lb.
7436 Red 3.030 lb.
Truck Front Springs
7426 Black 2.765 lb.
7427 Green 2.990 lb.
7428 Silver 3.225 lb.
7429 Blue 3.450 lb.
7425 Gold 3.700 lb.
7430 Red 3.900 lb.

Buggy Front Springs and 10L Center (VCS Macro Shock) Springs
8232 Black 3.200 lb.
6494 Green 3.500 lb.
6496 Silver 3.850 lb.
6497 Blue 4.200 lb.

[clw]

I didn't even see a blue front spring on their on-line chart.

So, I can just use their new spring in place of a "cut" blue, right?

[Mystracing]

It means they cut coils off of one end of the spring so it would be short enough to fit on a front buggy shock. More precisely you start at one end of the spring, count up seven coils, them turn the spring 1/4 turn and cut it off with a pair of wire cutters.

[clw]

Thanks guys, great answers.

Can I ask one more????
What's the importance of orifice size on the shock pistons? Example: To gain more bottoming resistance on the front is it better to increase oil viscosity from 30 to 35 or change pistons from 2 to 3? And why?

Thanks again

[clw]

Cutting a spring does more than just shorten it. It also increases the rate making it proportionally stiffer. A coil spring is just a deflecting beam and the shorter the beam the less deflection for the same amount of force. My guess is that they (Masami and Pavidis) were just making a stiffer spring.

[Mystracing]

clw - you must be an engineer:) I stand corrected, I had never taken that into consideration. I'll edit my post above so as to not confuse people. If my math is correct the cut blue rear spring should be the following.

(1/(7.25/11.25))*2.55 = 3.96 rate making it slightly stiffer than a buggy silver. Thanks for brining that to my attention.:)

[clw]

Originally posted by Mystracing
clw - you must be an engineer:)

It's that obvious, oh well. Why Mr. Myst, according to your profile, so are you.

I got the part number now so I'll pick up some Blues, thanks.

As to my other question relating to dampening it's confusing. Like a lot of RC offroad guys I'm primarily a dirt biker. I dabble in RC for awhile every few years (for some reason I keep coming back). So my confusion is the difference between motorcycle adjustments and those on a RC. Generally speaking MC suspension fluids are held constant, we change the valving and spring rates but hardly ever use thicker or thinner fluids. Why is that different with these little cars? Just beause one can change fluid easier than disassembling the shock to change the piston?

Is there a good web site that explains this clearly?

Thanks again.

[Mystracing]

Why yes I am an engineer, :D

The shock hole question is quite a can of worms to open up. Generally in R/C it's explained like this.

Smaller holed pistons have more pack. pack is a term that is used to refer to the high speed damping of a shock. High speed meaning the piston moving through the oil at high speed.

It's possible to get basically the same static damping with different combinations of oil and pistons. As an example a #1 piston with 40 wt oil and a #2 piston with 30 wt oil will give about the same static damping. Meaning the resistance when you push down on the car will feel about the same. Static damping is low speed damping.

The difference is in the high speed damping. the smaller holed piston with the lighter oil will develop more resistance to high speed piston movement than the larger holed piston with the haevier oil. Or in R/C lingo they'll have more pack.

This is a fact that can be easily proven on the track, and here is how and what it's used for. If your vehicle feels real good on the track but the rear is bottoming out on the face of a jump the solution is to increase the shock pack in the rear.

If in that case you have #1 pistons and 40wt oil in the rear, you can change to #2 pistons and 30wt oil, being as the static damping is the roughly the same and controls mostly the roll and pitch rate of the vehicle in corners, the car will handle basically the same in the corners and under braking and acceleration. Where it's different is when the car hits the face of the jump and the shaft suddenly accelerates to a high speed the increased pack from the smaller holed pistons will keep it from bottoming out.

[Mystracing]

I haven't found any web sites that really explain this clearly. I have a theory as to what is actually going on inside the shock.

Under low piston speeds I believe the flow of oil is laminar in nature, which gives a linear resistance to movement. x piston speed = x resistance, 2x piston speed = 2x resistance.

At some point the velocity of the oil flowing through the piston hole causes the shift from laminar to turbulent flow at which point the resistance becomes exponential. Meaning x piston speed = x resistance, 2x piston speed = X squared resistance.

This was developed because it makes sense, the one place this theory may fall short is that you have to look at the hole in the shock piston as a very short pipe to calculate this.

You can go to my web page with the www below my post and hit the link to car setup. My sections on car setup are more elementary than what your probably looking for but the best sources I have found are linked to from my setup page. If you go to the team Orion one pick car handling on that page. That's the best I've seen. There is also a lot of good info in the "marcs" link.

[clw]

Hey Mr. Myst:

Interesting theory, but what happened to transitional?

Sounds like for this application that the piston controls low speed and fluid controls high speed dampening for my simple mind.

Thanks for the links, I'll read 'em tonight.

[Mystracing]

It's a combination of the piston and fluid in both low and high speed cases. A smaller holed piston effects high speed damping because the velocity of the fluid has to increase to get the same amount of fluid through the holes causing the pack to occur earlier.

It's my opinion that transitional flow isn't something that actually occurs in the real world. At least not for any reasonably measurable period of time. Basically I beleive that in the real world fluids go from laminar to turbulent instantly when they hit a certain point. When a fluid calculates to be in transitional flow I think all that really means is the calculations aren't accurate enough to definatively say which it is. Being as many of the variables are based on assumed values like the roughness coefficient the point at which a fluid goes turbulent can only be calculated within the confines of those guesses.

In laymans terms transitional flow is the engineering worlds way of saying, we don't know which it is.

The only other explanation I could come up with for this phenomena is cavitation; however, my gut feeling tells me there's no way a R/C Car shock could handle the force required to cause cavitation in 30 wt oil without blowing apart. Not to mention if it was caused by cavitation that would require somewhere for the oil above the piston to go. Just doesn't seem plausible to me.

I should mention that fluid dynamics isn't my strongest subject by a long shot.

[Mystracing]

Just a note for people who read the posts above and are going, HUH?. The first post about the shock pistons is the only one that really matters to car setup.

One thing you have to be carefull of when messing with pack is a setup with a lot of pack won't allow the car to absorb bumps in the track. You can actually put black springs on the rear and end up with the back end bouncing because of too much pack.

[GA Maxx]

Originally posted by pudder
Trinity makes a rear transmission brace, and Racer's Edge makes a front top plate and front hingepin brace.

All above parts are aluminum.

u got a link to the racers edge parts.

i got my b3 and operation xtrem,e has started

its a team at the moment, with teh blue kick up platem hope fully nexty month uit will haev a new gody, wheels, tyres, springs and every blue hop up:D

Its got great electrics though

Novak XXL Reciever
Nosram Dominator Power ESC
Hitec flash Pro car 4 Radio
XTM matched Gp3300
Novak millenium pro
the new monster trinity stock

so as soon as all hop ups are here i can race

anyone use the titanium layshaft

[pudder]

try www.racersedge.com ? or else look at www.rcyellowpages.com and search for racers edge.

[YokomoRacer]

clw - try this link.

http://home.tiscali.be/be067749/58/

This site tries to explain the fluid mechanics causing pack.
I found it highly interesting myself.

L8tr.

[LouisB]

I haven't messed with the pistons on my B3, just because I haven't needed too. I run light oil and standard pistons because my local track is very bumpy, but there are also some big jumps. Would it be a good idea to use heavier oil and larger piston holes or should i stick with what works for me now?
Thanks

X-treme Pro 3, I use the Titanium Racing top shaft. It makes a difference, but as there has been a fire at the Ti Racing factory it may be tricky getting one from there. You could get the Robinson Racing version.

[pudder]

I wouldnt really reccomend the heavier oil. It will just cause your buggy to bounce around a lot more. If anything, just maybe go up one hole on the pistons and see how it is. My track I ran on for offroad was pretty bumpy, I had good results using 30wt with 2 hole pistons on my rc10 graphite and FT T3.

[LouisB]

Thanks Pudder, compared to the Losis at the track my B3 handles very well and I don't know if it could be improved. All the other B3 drivers have gone so i don't have any set-ups to compare:(

[Mystracing]

LouisB - If the rear of your car doesn't bottom out on the face of a jump. This is what usually causes the car to nose dive off a jump. Or get really squirly from bottoming out on the landing, there's really no reason to mess with shock pack.

The most common problem people have with a B3 in regards to this is the bottoming on the face of a jump due to the jump ramp being very steep. I solved this issue quite some time ago, but it requires quite an unusual setup to eleminate it and keep the car stable on the rest of the track. I drove the B3 from the time it came out until last fall. Below is the setup I ran on a bumpy track with overly steep jumps, basically a rough track setup. It's unbelievably stable for a B3, it has a lot of steering but isn't twitchy or loose.

Front:
No wieght in bulkhed
30 degree caster blocks
ride height = arms level
-1.5 degrees camber
king pin in middle position
1/2 degree of toe in
No bump steer spacers
Standard Ackerman

Front shocks:
2 - 1/4" and 1- 1/8' preload clips
.065 limiting in front shock (2 thin white shock washers)
3 holed shock piston, 5-5-6 shock pistons
(you can drill a #2 piston with a 56 bit, it's easier to use a Losi 56 piston and drill 2 holes with a #55 bit)
Black springs
25 wt oil
Shock top - Middle hole
Shock bottom - inside
camber rod - middle on shock tower
Total shock length 3.23"

Rear:
camber -1.5 degrees
rear ride heigh - bones slightly below level
3-3 a-arm cariier with no shims
short wheelbase

Rear Shocks:
1-1/4 and 1-1/8 preload spacer
5-5-6 pistons, see note on front pistons
silver spring
25 wt oil
top of shock - middle
bottom of shock outside
camber rod as long as you can make it. Inside on chassis, outside on hub.
Worlds shock tower

This setup has XXX like stability. If you try this setup make sure to use the whole setup. If you just try one part of it, it won't work.

[GA Maxx]

Originally posted by LouisB
I haven't messed with the pistons on my B3, just because I haven't needed too. I run light oil and standard pistons because my local track is very bumpy, but there are also some big jumps. Would it be a good idea to use heavier oil and larger piston holes or should i stick with what works for me now?
Thanks

X-treme Pro 3, I use the Titanium Racing top shaft. It makes a difference, but as there has been a fire at the Ti Racing factory it may be tricky getting one from there. You could get the Robinson Racing version.

i was thinmking of getting the Robinson Racing one. Louis where did you get yours from

wha tsurface do you race on

[LouisB]

I got mine direct from titanium racing but they closed while repairing fire damage.
Any shop that deals with CML distribution can get the RRP top shaft.

I run on bumpy dirt, an ex BMX track that the club has use of now they don't race BMXs on it any more. The club's been racing there for over 15 years. I'll try and get some pics of it next meeting.

Mystracing, thanks for the set-up, I'll try it next week. Sometimes it gets out of control landing off jumps so that could help. I haven't got any black front springs at the moment so I'll have to pick some up.
Just one thing "camber rod - middle on shock tower" :confused: I thought that there were only 2 camber link positions on the tower.

[GA Maxx]

cheers, im handing my b3 to a team driver with £200 he fitting all hop ups and setting it up
i can do it but having 5 cars that are used daily i dont have time

[clw]

Once again Mr. Myst (my new found buddy) a few questions:

On your rough track setup can you walk through your thoughts and how you implimented them to get this setup to work?

And, the order please. What was major and what was a minor adjustment.

And, a 5-5-6 drilled losi piston is where flow wise (total orifice area) in the Associated 1, 2 & 3 scheme?

Am I a pain or what?

THanks

OH, BTW, you've got a great website. Where do you guys find the time to do something like that?

[pudder]

Hmm... the site looks pretty good. I just took a quick look at it... I need to get some more reviews on my site, maybe this weekend I will have time, usually I need to take a few hours to work on my site when I do. :)

[GA Maxx]

i think it was you pudder who asked on msn my b3 is a team

[Streaks]

Hey guys,

I've not read all the posts so forgive me if anyone has asked this before...


Anyone remember back in the day, when the stealth trans was new? You could convert your RC10 to run a mid-motor setup by drilling out the chassis a bit and installing the stealth's top shaft backwards (there was a hole on both sides of the trans cases, came with a plug for the unused one).

Anyone tried this with the newer stuff?

I had plans back then of buying one of the MIP 4WD conversions and mating it with my mid-motor setup somehow, but they dropped the mod before I could afford it. That and their rear trailing arm chassis are things I miss today.



Streaks :D

[Mystracing]

LouisB - Some have 2 holes and some have 3. If you have a 2 hole tower it's the outside one. Also the setup will work fine with green front springs it just has a little less steering.

clw - If you work on a web site for 5 or 6 years it gets big.

The easy question first, a 5-5-6 has about 47% more orifice area than a #2. The Associated pistons are #1 - #54, #2 - #55, #3 - #56 holes. Of course they only have two holes instead of three like the Losi's. I'm not even going to try to make any sense out of this scientifically, but the three holed shock pistons give much softer static damping but still have a lot of pack to keep the chassis off the ground on the jumps.

The reason for the setup was because I couldn't get the suspension soft enough to handle a rough surface well without bottoming out badly on the jumps and landings. When set up for the jumps it was a handful on the rest of the track.

What I was trying to accomplish was get a setup that was soft enough to handle a rough track surface, but had enough pack to not bottom out on the jumps.

The biggest change was the shock pistons, followed by the limiters in the front shocks. Limiting the front shocks reduces the amount of weight transferred to the rear of the vehicle which results in more on power steering. The rest of the changes were made based on what felt best to me.

My best racer friend runs the same setup but with green front springs because he wanted less off power steering.

The funny thing about that setup is it looks really strange to start with, but if you compare it to the stock setup it isn't really that much different.

[Mystracing]

Streaks - The new stealth transmissions from the B2 on are very impracticle to turn around because they are structurally part of the vehicle attached to the shock tower, instead of just bolted to the chassis like the original stealth. It could probably be done; however, it would involve a lot more than drilling a few holes because of the way the tranny protrudes through the bottom of the chassis, and the location of the shock tower. Mostly meaning the lower chassis plate just isn't long enough.

Oh, BTW, Yea I remember those.

[Streaks]

The shock tower is what's giving me the biggest problem. It's now much more a bulkhead that serves as a tower than the other way around. And the notch in the chassis is no biggie. I have a dremel and am NOT afraid to use it! :D :D Just sand off that nub on the bottom of the trans. But then, hacking up the rear bulkhead is problematic, and finding bracing once it's all turned around would involve custom made parts I suspect.

It could be done but I have no woven graphite laying around much less the time....eh, well I'm unemployed.....ok, the patience to fuss with cutting graphite plates :D (not to mention I have no resperator handy atm).

I'd actually toyed with the idea of just buying one of the older, metal chassis models and running the mid-motor setup on it *grin*

That, and which model were the FWD cars? Would be fun to see how they would do in the current sedan scene :)





Streaks

[clw]

Surprise, Surprise, Surprise---

Stopped at the LHS and picked up a set of 30° blocks, Losi 56's and a #55 drill. Guess what the losi pistons are too big in diameter to go inside my shocks!! This is why it's sometimes notta such a good thing to buy second hand over the internet. I guess I have another kind of shock on the car. They are very smooth with a similar look (of course all shocks look about the same) but don't have the built in hex pattern for the wrench. Bummer! The ID is very close to 1.0mm, any ideas what I've got? The pistons are also a 2 hole design with the hole a little smaller than the #55 drill. Actually the way the pistons are molded looks higher quality than the corresponding Associated part.

Mr. Myst, thanks for all the info and guidance you lend to this board. I surely appreciate it!

[LouisB]

I'm not sure what type of shock it could be, what colour is the body, what's the cap made of and what colour is it?
You could make a roll of sandpaper and rotate the piston in it until it slides smoothly in the shock.

How many mm is a 55 and 56 bit?

[Streaks]

If you have a drill or dremel tool, simply take a the cut-off tool for a dremel, and put the piston on that, chuck it up and have at it with some sand paper. Little bit at a time and it should eventually fit. Unless there is a size problem with the screw of the bit and the piston which, could very well be as I have no clue what your dealing with there :)

Could it be a Shumacher part? Or Tamaya or Kyosho? Maybe an older Losi part?







Streaks

[clw]

Originally posted by LouisB
I'm not sure what type of shock it could be, what colour is the body, what's the cap made of and what colour is it?
How many mm is a 55 and 56 bit?

in order:
gun metal blue (blueish grey)
metal
a black wrinkle finish
#55=1.320mm
#56=1.181mm

Supposedly this car belonged toan Associated Team driver, maybe Yokomo?? It also fixes the shaft seals from the outside, not internal like an Associated.

[LouisB]

Thanks for the bit info, I had some but most have vanished. I might have to go out to my shed with a magnet and search the cracks in the floor! ;)

Not sure on the shocks, the new yoke TC shocks are that colour. It wouldn't suprise me if they were yokomo. But it could be Kyosho:confused:

[nelson8708]

I think that the ti mods are great motors to run in the mod class. At my track most of the mod racers are using the fantoms. I hear that the best one ( for my track at least ) is the 10X2. I was thinking about buying the MVP sounds a little bit better than the p2k2. I got a factory team b3 and I love racing. My friend i race with every weekend is running the kinwald edition and his runs great but, let me tell you the b3 can take a hit.

[pudder]

I would go with the MVP. I like it over the P2k2's. I run the regular one in my T3 and do pretty good with it.

[clw]

Originally posted by LouisB
Not sure on the shocks, the new yoke TC shocks are that colour. It wouldn't suprise me if they were yokomo. But it could be Kyosho:confused:

Man is Google neat! Searched around and found this site, That's them, I've got MX4 shocks on a B3. Classy Huh!

http://www.christian-keil.com/neu/yokomo-mx4-neu4.html

At least I know where to get parts, if they still make 'em. Thanks for the help.

[Mystracing]

clw - Everyone who runs a MX4 seriously has Associated shocks on it. You appearently got a donor car. The action of those shocks is terrible compared to the Associated shocks. It would be worth the money to get Asociated shocks back on it. They do look like good shocks but don't perform nearly as well. I tried running them on my MX4 for quite a while before I put Associateds on it. Just a bit of trivia for ya, Jokomo actually makes 1 holed pistons for those shocks.

Are the Losi Hubs your referring to on the rear? If so then it also has B2 rear a-arms. In order to get te XXCR rear hubs to work on a B3 without custom building a set of drive shafts you have to have shorter rear arms. This setup drastically lowers the rear roll center, it makes the car a lot like the old Losi's that pushed real bad.

Another note: If they are the newer Yokomo shocks they should have a bleed hole in the plastic cap (a setsrew that can be removed to bleed the shocks). If they don't have that; the caps are probably Associated, guys that don't know the easy way to fill a Associated shock would sometimes put the Yok caps on the Associated shocks.

[clw]

Originally posted by Mystracing
Are the Losi Hubs your referring to on the rear? If so then it also has B2 rear a-arms. In order to get te XXCR rear hubs to work on a B3 without custom building a set of drive shafts you have to have shorter rear arms. This setup drastically lowers the rear roll center, it makes the car a lot like the old Losi's that pushed real bad.

This could be an expensive B3! Were Yokomo shocks on a B3 ever the hot setup? A quick looksee at the correct Associated parts looks to be $70 or so to get this car back to spec. And even then it's an outdated car with the intro of the new B4 pending. Decisions, decisions....

What was the reasoning behind the switch to the rear arms and Losi hubs if it just introduced a lot of push? I guess a lot of my questions are relevant to me not being in the sport during the '99-'00 time period when this car was last used.

So, what do you guys think, fix this one up or sell her back on eBay to some other sap and pony up for a new B4?

[Mystracing]

The reason for the switch on the rear arms and hubs is it works on a real slick track. The induced push can be worked out of the car with 25 degree castor blocks, a little weight in the front, and cut down Holeshots, or taper pins on the front. This something a person would probably only wan't to do if they raced at the same track weekly and it was always slick. The car doesn't handle bad with the reworked rear end. The only problem it produces that can't be solved on the B3 is a mid corner push that only an advanced driver would notice. On a Losi you can chnge the front kickup to correct the condition, but on a B3 you can't. That's no big deal though to switch back to stock.

As far as "Were Yokomo shocks on a B3 ever the hot setup?", in a word NO! Most people just bought a new set of Associated shocks for their MX4 appearently the guy you got your car from had an extra B3 or just didn't run it after getting the MX4.

I don't think the car is worth fixing up personally. If you sold it for $75, and added the $70 it would cost to get it back to stock, you'd only be about $50 shy of enough for the B4. And though a lot of people aren't going to believe it till they see it. I'm confident the B4 is going to be a much, much better car for the average to real good driver. Just my opinion though.

Yoke shocks work okay they are just kind of an unknown quantity, meaning you'll have to figure them out for yourself, because even most Yoke drivers in the US haven't run them enough to really know how to set them up.

[clw]

Being the frugal guy that I am I must concur completely. 60 throw away dollars is a bit too much.

One final question if I may: Would it be to my advantage to return the B3 to the original rear configuration given the few $ needed?

Like you explained there was/is a lead weight in the recess area above the front bumper. I hadn't noticed the described push, the car did arrive with the 25° blocks and appears to be setup as you described. Our tracks are pretty loose so the conditions here are probably different than Ohio where the car was from.

Again Mr. Myst, thanks for all the help.

[Mystracing]

The answer to weather it would be to your advantage to switch back to the stock rear configuration depends on how good of a driver you are. It will make the car more twitchy and responsive.

That's not necessarily a good thing. I'll let you in on the best kept secret in the world about car setup. The best setup for your car is the one that you can drive the fastest consistant laps with.

I know that sounds like a no brainer but if you think about it, it's not. Most people try to set their car up to be the fastest most dialed car on the track. Really good drivers don't do that, they set their cars up to be easy for them to to drive, so they can push them hard without ending up backward in every other corner. The fastest car with the most traction and a completely nuetral setup (No push or oversteer) is capable of turning the fastest laps. The problem is there are very few people that could drive it 2 laps consistantly with that "best" setup.

What a person needs to do with their setup is get the car to where it's easy for them to drive. If that means it loses a little speed because of push or not being super responsive that's okay, it's better than trying to drive on the razors edge and ending up backward or stuffed in the barrier on every lap.

As I mentioned the mid corner push that the type of setup you have causes is something only a super good driver would notice. And the kind of thing that would only make a difference if the guys you were racing against were also at that level. It's even hard to explain what it feels / looks like until you reach that point in your driving skills. The car will enter the corner fine, then for a fraction of a second in the middle of a hairpin it will slide out the front end, then as you get on the power the front traction comes back. The effect is the car moves about 6" to the outside of the corner. It isn't something that's going to hurt the average driver, but at the national level it's what those types of drivers need to get under you through the corner.

Your Welcome

[LouisB]

Mystracing, I've got your set-up on my B3 now (I had some red losi pistons lying around froom my XXX-S) and it seems a bit stiff at the rear. I normally run green rear springs and fewer pre-load spacers so I was wondering if this set-up was more for tracks with decent grip:confused: but I'll try it anyway and see if it works. The track's quite grippy and muddy at the moment so it should work but in the summer it is very dusty and loose and this set-up may cause severe oversteer, what do u think?

[nelson8708]

I was wondering if you could put a p2k arm into a p2k2? Some guy gave me a p2k and i was wondering if the arms are interchange able.

[Mystracing]

Yes

I somehow feel obligated to mention it isn't legal in ROAR sanctioned races to use a different than stock com in a motor.

[clw]

That 6" of slip would probably keep me off the boards! So, I guess that would be a good thing. I'll start playing with the settings to see if I can discern these subtle changes.

[pudder]

Originally posted by Mystracing
Yes

I somehow feel obligated to mention it isn't legal in ROAR sanctioned races to use a different than stock com in a motor.

He could always ask his race director if he would allow it. Really, the only difference between the two motors is basically the armature.

[Mystracing]

LouisB - Sorry it took so long to answer I missed your post at the bottom of the page until today.

The rear of the car does seem way stiff, but it isn't as bad as it seems. The stiffness in the rearend makes the car very stable. I did run 20 wt oil in the rear sometimes instead of 25. The setup was developed for a track that was basically a mess. Wet and soft in spots, dry, dusty and hard in others. The setup works on about everything, just try it. If your track is really rough you might want to try the 20 wt in the rear but the track has to be bad rough for that. As far as loose tracks go typically just going to green springs on the front will take away enough steering to compenste, without loosing the stability.

I'll be curious to hear how it works for you.

[LouisB]

Mystracing, thanks for the info:) I've got it all set-up and sorted ready for Sunday but i have a couple of Qs. You say to use a 1/4" and a 1/8" spacer on the rear shocks but have the CVDs just below level:confused: and where do you position the pack?
It doesn't seem so stiff at the back now I've put a motor and pack in it, I might do a little testing tomorrow if the weather's good, Hyper 7 testing too:D

[Mystracing]

LouisB, Just set it up with the dogbones a little below level. I had the shock spacers written down on the setup sheet, I don't know why I wrote it down and when I typed it I just typed what was on the sheet.

All of my setups are based on the pack being in the middle, that way I can move it forward or back depending on the track conditions.

[LouisB]

Thanks,
I gave it a test drive today and it seems very well balanced. I normally run the pack in the forward position when the track is damp to get more steering, but as it's been dry for a couple of days I'll leave it in the middle. Unfortunately the receiver I normally use in my B3 (hitec) doesn't work and when I use my PCM receiver at the buggy track it suffers from interference (but not anywhere else). I've got the PCM receiver in at the moment, I just hope it works, if not then I might be able to borrow one.

I ordered a Novak XXL a couple of days ago but the postman came to my house when everyone was out and couldn't deliver it:(

[LouisB]

I borrowed a receiver after glitches in the 1st round and in the 2nd round of qualifying I got pole. I didn't have such a good 3rd round and ended up in 2nd place on the grid, just a couple of 1/10ths behind the leader.
In the final I made a great start and after 1/2 a lap took the lead:D I pulled away b/c my car was handling so well (thank-you Mystracing) but got held up in traffic and went back to 2nd. Then I crashed off a huge jump because I was pushing too hard in an attempt to catch up. The marshal was very slow and it cost me 20 seconds. I was down to 4th and pushing hard, but on the last corner I went wide to let the leader through and 5th place sneaked past too! So, my car was handling perfectly, my driving was pretty good (only the one mistake) but I still can't win. I'll try again next time.

Mystracing, thanks for the set-up. I ended up with a tiny bit of toe-out and the pack split like this []000[]000 to give a bit more steering.

[Mystracing]

LouisB, Your welcome, and I'm glad you like the setup.

This might sound nuts, but don't push your car. Everyone is slower when they're pushing hard. 5 minutes is a long race, just drive the first 4 1/2 minutes at your best smooth pace. Then if your not in first push it the last 30 seconds. I'd bet if you did just drive smooth and clean for 4 1/2 minutes you wouldn't have to push it at the end.

This isn't really directed at you just a couple notes for everyone that keeps coming close but no cigar. When a person keeps comming close but doesn't seem to be able to get over the hump it's usually due to being impatient. When I'm out front I just keep repeating the word smooth in my head. It distracts me from worrying about the other drivers and lap traffic etc. Seems to help keep me focused on just driving and maintaining consistant laps. At our track the difference between first and 5th is usually just what you mentioned, that one mistake.

The other thing that a lot of people have a problem with is letting things go to their head. If they wreck, get hacked, or get a bad turnmarshall they drive porly for a number of laps equal to how upset they are about it. It takes a lot of practice to do it, but a driver needs to never get shook or feel like they're out of the race. When something goes wrong if a person can just continue to drive like they're on a practice run it's surprising how often they end up back racing for the win. This is usually cause by having a clear track while the leaders are racing with each other or pushing it too hard.

[pudder]

Good advice. I find when I am in a lower position I 'panic' and tend to drive worse... driving smooth is good.

For example, usually I get about 22 laps on the track I race at running my MVP on sundays. I raced wednesday this week, same setup as always and I only had one other guy that was just starting out to race against. I was relaxed and got a sweet 23 laps. I ran very smooth, no crashes or anything.

[LouisB]

I know what you mean, I usually get into a rythm quite quickly and lap consistently but if I get held up I lose concentration and start making mistakes. I think it happened a bit at the end of the race on Sunday but my usual driving style is to stick behind the people in front and wait for them to make a mistake. I'm still a relative newb at racing and I don't have much time to practice so I learn a lot every race.

I find smooth is fast with all my cars except my Corally 12th scale, it just doesn't like careful drivers, but once you show it who's boss it goes great LOL

I put some pics of my local track here (http://www.grccc.supanet.com/gallerytrack.htm)

[clw]

This is a stupid question, but...

Is a toe-in spec the total toe-in for both sides extended to their intersection or the angle from the vehicle centerline?

[LouisB]

I always take it as meaning the angle of one side (from center line), because that is normally how camber is measured. You can measure toe in (or out) by putting the front of the car perpendicular to a flat wall and using a camber guage with its base on the wall. That's the easiest way to measure toe in/out as the angle from the center line.

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, and this could be a stupid answer (but i hope not)

[Mystracing]

What he said. One other note about front toe. Make sure you push the rear of the tires in to take the play out of the steering when you set the toe. The friction from the car causes the tires to be pushed back when the car is running. There is usually 1 to 2 degrees of play in the steering linkage, if it's in good condition, so if you set the toe without taking the play out on the back of the tires it won't be what you set it at when the car is running. In bad cases you could set it at one degree in and actually be running a couple degrees out.

[clw]

Can you write real slow and explain to be how you use a RPM camber gauge (which I have) to set toe? I'm having a little difficulty understanding how the wall is used and how you can accurately establish parallelism with the wall.

Thanx

And, Myst, man are you right about those Yokomo shocks. The fronts are OK but the rear can not handle any roughness in turns. So, that means they have too much pack I believe or too slow rebound dampening. First step to lighter oil? Or drill out them pistons to??

Signed, helpless

[LouisB]

OK, I'll try to explain it. <slow>I usually just judge by eye if the chassis is perpendicular to the flat surface (wall, piece of wood etc) but you can use a big set square and line it up with the chassis as best you can. Do what Mystracing said about the front tires then put the base of the camber guage on the flat surface with whatever setting you want. +1* on the guage would give -1* toe in on that side. Adjust as you would when setting camber and then repeat on the other side</slow> Sometimes I re-check the settings after running for a couple of seconds to make sure they are right.

I've got a XX-L receiver now and black front springs, just a day late:( I tried the black springs in my garden (there's a track-like patch) and it improved steering. Mystracing, would you recommend changing to green rear springs on a very slick track or would you change something else first?

I've been toying with the idea of getting a XXX-4 for the summer championship (much easier to drive when there's zero grip) but I've decided that I'll stick with the B3 until at least this time next year. Maybe I'll even win for a change, I came 2nd in the last summer championship.

[clw]

Thanks Louis:
I still don't understand how you can freeze or lock up the steering. As soon as you turn the car around to adjust the other side the wheels can turn a little and screw up the adjustment. Do you have the car and the transmitter "on" so the servos hold the wheels centered (or at least in one place). Maybe that's it, I've always done this with the car dead.

[LEADFOOT]

I know it's common to use XXX stub axles on the B3 to widen the rear track. Do you then use B3 or XXX wheels? I thought the axles were different sizes. If not, what is the difference?

[chance]

If you use the MIP part number 1042 stub axle (for Losi XX) the B3 wheels fit. The reason for using that stub axle is to put a little more of the CVD bone into the outdrive. The amount the car is widened is next to nothing.

The advantage is never throwing an axle when using a shock mounting position that allows more down travel and being able to use a special washer behind the wheel drive pin that will keep the rims from rubbing the hubs under high cornering loads.

[LEADFOOT]

hey, who asked you anyways?:D


I read somewhere that people use the XXX axle to widen the rear end. I can't seem to find it, though.

[LouisB]

Originally posted by clw
Thanks Louis:
I still don't understand how you can freeze or lock up the steering. As soon as you turn the car around to adjust the other side the wheels can turn a little and screw up the adjustment. Do you have the car and the transmitter "on" so the servos hold the wheels centered (or at least in one place). Maybe that's it, I've always done this with the car dead.

Yep, do it with the car switched on.

[Mystracing]

clw - Ummmmm....... This is what I meant by your on your own with the shocks. I was never able to get a MX4 with the Yoke shocks to handle descent. The MX4 is referred to as the "Brick" here. It weighs a ton. At least half again if not twice what a B3 weighs. I'd guess it has too much pack but I'm just pulling that out of the air. Send me an e-mail, you should be able to do that from the link below. I'll dig around through my old parts boxes, I think I saw an old pair of rear shocks the other day you can have, but I'll have to check and make sure.

LouisB - It depends on how the slick track is affecting the car. If the problem is keeping the rear end behind the front end when braking or getting on the throttle adjusting the slipper and brake are the answer. Usually people run their slipper too tight on a slick track, and they have trouble controlling the car because it can't handle so much throttle. The car will feel really slow with the slipper loose but it doesn't tend to show on the lap times, if anything the lap times typically go down. If you have a balanced car on a high traction track it's usually still balanced on a slick track, and it's more an issue of throttle and brake control.

Matt Francis runs his slipper locked, and so do a lot of other people because they figure if it works for him it must be a good thing to do. I'm not Matt Francis, I usually have the most slip of anyone on the track. I'm also usually the most in control and the one out front here.

If the car is actually loose first I'd go to 20wt oil it will allow the rear to roll faster and take away some steering because of unweighting the front end entering the turn. If that's not enough then I'd change to the green springs.

[LouisB]

Mystracing, thanks for the tips. Everyone thinks I have the slipper loose when they hear it accelerate but i could try it even looser. I normally use the smooth modified drive profile on my GT7 and try to avoid using the brakes if possible. I don't think those things help enough, when I go round most corners (without strong acceleration or braking) the back end slides out. I was running green springs with 20wt oil for most of the summer championship so I'll try changing to 20wt, if that doesn't work then I'll put the green springs back on.

[Mystracing]

clw - lets see type real slow. After you set the camber three times and notice that you have a wheel that isn't straight you use the wall to stop the car when you throw it across the room. :D

Actually I have no clue what you'd use the wall for. When useing a RPM camber guage you should set the camber then turn the wheel 180 degrees and check it. If it's 2 degrees off; average that setting with the original setting and you'll have the correct camber. Some wheels / tires are pretty crooked.

It's a lot of money and a little work but with the help of a drill press and a little ingenuity the Hudy 1/10th touring car setup system will work on Associated offroad cars. It's pretty sweet. It's the only way I've found to accurately set the camber and toe. I seemed to do okay with a combination of the RPM guage and watching the dirt on the tires though.

[Mystracing]

LouisB - Sounds like a good plan.

[LouisB]

I'll try and take a video of a buggy race next time:)

Sorry for confusing everyone about the "wall", it's just what I use to put the camber guage on when setting toe-in/out in my shed!

[Mystracing]

I made a board for setting up my cars. My work bench isn't flat or particularly level so i bought a piece of 5/8" thick particle board. I cut it so it was big enough for my GT and T3 the put three adjustable feet on it. I set that on the work bench and use the feet to level the board so I have a flat level surface to do my settings. The whole thing cost me about $10. It also works great on crooked pit tables at the track.

I actually didn't do it for offroad, I made it for touring cars. When I quit running the touring cars I realized that the board and the Hudy setup station would work just as well for the offroad cars. Definately overkill but I don't feel so bad about having that stuff collecting dust.

Love to see the video :)

[Mystracing]

Oh? BTW I get the wall thing now. I was trying to relate it to the RPM camber guage.

[LouisB]

The Hudy guage idea sounds interesting. I've been thinking about getting one for my XXX-S but I thought it was a bit limited because I couldn't set up any of my other cars on it, do you have to modify many of the parts to get it to work with a B3?

Someone at my club made a board in exactly the same way, I just use his:)

I've been using my VERY cheap camera to take some videos of cars for my club's web site, there are some of a TC race (I'm the purple porsche!) and some 1:8th buggies. They can be a maximum of 10 seconds long and are rather poor quality, but you can get an idea of what's going on. Have a look at them here (http://www.grccc.supanet.com/videos.htm)
I'm saving up for a decent camera, and trying to convince my uncle (he took the TC videos) to come over and take some more videos with his £750 camera.

[clw]

1. This "donor" car doesn't have Losi hubs. Another lie by the online seller. Had a B3 owner look it over and compare to his and it has B3 arms and hubs. It may have a Losi axle like recently posted, maybe that's what the seller meant.

2. Like I posted before very little sideways traction in a rippled turn. Back end just skates and doesn't bite, not bad on a smooth turn but put some chatter and you are wide real quick. At least it didn't traction roll like a some cars did in that turn.

3. The car has a lot, and I mean a lot of off power going into the turn steering, so much my son (an XXXT kind of guy) couldn't (wouldn't) drive it more than one lap. Needs a better balance between off and on power steering. Doesn't hook up and respond halfway through 180° turns. Had to raise the front to above level and drop the rear to calm down the grabby front going in but I'm sure it adversely affected the mid and end of the turns pushing me into the marbles.

Questions if you please, answers graciously accepted:

Would 25° blocks help balance the steering?
Would some toe-in slow down the response going in?
A lot of the AE setups show weighting the front bulkhead 1/2 to 1 oz., is that for high speed steering or?

And LouisB, you're only 16! Sigh.....

One last thing, many years ago Cliff Lett said to hold the rear of the car 8" up and drop it and it should just barely hit the chassis, all the newer cars seem much stiffer, what changed in setup? Sorry I rambled.

[LouisB]

25* blocks would give more turn in.

Yes toe-in would slow the steering response and also improve on-power steering, when there isn't much grip I always run some toe-in.

I've tried weight in the bulkhead and it kept the front end on the ground better when accelerating round a corner and at high speed but i prefer Mystracing's idea or using limiters inside the front shocks to keep the front level round corners. If it's just high speed cornering that is the problem then weight should help.

I'm not 16 yet:p couple of months to go. How old are you?

[LEADFOOT]

Ha! I found it....

Most people have switched to using a Losi cvd axle because it's longer and you can extend the rear wheel out further from the hub widening the rear end. You use the stock cvd bone itself, but a Losi cvd axle mounted w/ it. Don't forget to use the Losi outter wheel spacer beneath the axle pin for the wheel to rest on...

As far as widening the rear end, yes, it does help. It helps the stability of the car a bit and provide a little more traction AND corner speed. This isn't something that I came up with, it happens to be something almost the entire team has done along w/ many people who run B3's.

(originally posted by buff in the B4 forum)

Anyone know if he's talking about the XX or XXX axle?

[clw]

Originally posted by LouisB
I'm not 16 yet:p couple of months to go. How old are you?

My youngest is 20, I'm your almost age (x)3.


Found this on the AE site.

http://www.teamassociated.com/basicshub/setuphelp/setuphelpt3/helpt3frsusp.htm

[LouisB]

OK:cool:

I always thought that increasing caster decreased turn in (that's what I've found with my TC and 1/8th buggy) but gave more steering coming out of the corner. When I tried 25* blocks on my B3 i noticed more initial turn in which seems to agree with that idea:confused:

[aspiringrcracer710]

I just thought Id ask, but with the B4 gettin ready to hit the shelves, will the B3 be easier to get?

[pudder]

I think the B3's should go down in price. I'm going to wait a while and see how the prices are, then decide if I will get a B3 or B4. I might just get a FT B3 since they will be cheaper in price, I'll just have to see. It wouldn't be until the end of June before I get another race vehicle.

[Mystracing]

LouisB - If you modify a Hudy setup station for a offroad car it will no longer work for touring cars. Kinda sucks, but I had enough of the touring cars anyway.

aspiringrcracer710 - A new B3 will go down in price for a short time because of shops trying to get rid of them. I can't imagine Associated would continue to make them though so don't wait too long if you really want a new B3.

[Mystracing]

clw - Thanks for making me feel good I've been racing for longer than LouisB has been breathing but I ain't that old:D, I'm just 37. BTW your package is in the mail with 5-5-6 pistons and 25 wt oil. you'll need to get a couple of the spring retainers for the bottom of the shocks. These shocks have Losi retainers on them for some reason.

Let's see where to start, "what happened to setup?" smooth high traction race tracks for the most part.

The 25 degree blocks will give you more low speed steering, and less turn in and high speed steering. They most likely won't solve the problem you described. Though they could help.

The toe in will slow down the steering response as LouisB said. That's the first thing I would add. Though I wouldn't give it more than 1 degree. I never run toe out, it's just a personal thing.

The weight in the front bulkhead works really well on slick dusty surfaces where the tires just aren't grabbing. On anything with traction it isn't necessary, and in your case will make your car worse because it will have more steering entering the corner.

What you described sound like a case where the car is transferring weight too fast on the front end, and then fighting with the rear through the rest of the corner.

When a car is too soft in the front relative to the rear, the front dives gets tons of traction for a split second making it jerk to the side, it then loses front traction because the rear doesn't roll into the corner resulting in a mid corner push. That is assuming the rear doesn't just break loose from the initial steering entry.

[Mystracing]

You probably need to soften the rear to balance with the front; however, being as you mentioned people traction rolling I assume your on a high traction surface so you may wan't to stiffen up the front. That kind of depends on what your setup is now.

In simpler terms what I'm saying is the front shock oil is probably too light and / or the rear oil too heavy, resulting in dis-similar front and rear roll rates.

[LouisB]

I think I'll stick with my RPM camber guage for now;)

One thing I found on loose tracks was if you move the battery forward then instead of spinning out more it actually stops the rear end from coming round because it doesn't "snap" like it does with the pack in the back. I spent ages last year with the pack all the way back thinking more weight on the back end would give more rear grip but it didn't work that way.

Mystracing, what front tires do you run on slick/loose/dusty tracks?

[Mystracing]

LouisB, If it's loose so the tire can dig into the track Silver Losi wide bodies. If the tire can't dig in Red Losi Wide Bodies.

The Edge's work well on slick tracks. M2 if it's soft, and M3 if it's hard, but they wear quicker and the Wide Bodies just feel more consistant to me.

BTW if you ever get a chance to run on a super high traction surface that splitting the battery packs you mentioned earlier really helps calm te car down.

[clw]

Originally posted by Mystracing
clw - Thanks for making me feel good I've been racing for longer than LouisB has been breathing but I ain't that old, I'm just 37.

Well, I don't know what to say.... except.... the difference between 37 and 48 will happen so fast you won't believe it! Bet 26 seems like just a few years ago.

And Louis, for a young man you are to be commended for taking such an analytical approach to you racing. Most young fellows on this side of the pond just whine and ask their daddies to fix it. Hey, in Britspeak is the term "bugger off" in common usage? Hugh Grant said that soooo many times in About a Boy.

Originally posted by Mystracing
In simpler terms what I'm saying is the front shock oil is probably too light and / or the rear oil too heavy, resulting in dis-similar front and rear roll rates.

For starters I used 25w in both ends with the unknown Yokomo pistons (2 hole, smaller than a #55 orifice) and in comparision to other cars the front is a little bit more active. So I'll bump it up to 30w before Wed. night practice. Thanks

One more:
On Billie Easton's setup sheet for inside shock limiter he says 1. 1 what? they come in 4 sizes, is that the full answer or just a partial?

[clw]

Hey hey hey:

If you guys want an easier to get, cheaper B3 instead of a new B4. Just click the email button below, have I got a deal for you!

[LouisB]

Originally posted by clw
And Louis, for a young man you are to be commended for taking such an analytical approach to you racing. Most young fellows on this side of the pond just whine and ask their daddies to fix it. Hey, in Britspeak is the term "bugger off" in common usage? Hugh Grant said that soooo many times in About a Boy.


Thanks:) My Dad's never been that interested in cars but my parents are willing to help out (dropping me off at the track and picking up spares from the LHS when I'm at school) which is an arrangement I'm very happy with.
There are lots of father/son teams over here and they argue quite a lot. You hear much worse than "bugger off", more like "***** ****** *********" LOL

I've always been interested in technology (I've made several Robot Wars robots, boats and now cars) and I like physics. I'm going to study physics, maths, art and history for A-levels (I don't know what the American equivalent is but it's between 16-18 yrs) and hopefully study some type of engineering at university afterwards (has to be close to a good track;) )

Not sure on the spacer:confused:

[Mystracing]

clw - Your right I think I was 26 yesterday.

On the spacer, it has to be an incomplete answer. It's amazing how much information is missing from the published setup sheets. And the spacers in the shocks are absolutely critical to any setup.

I usually give a total shock length to avoid confusion. As much to avoid confusing myself as anything.

LouisB Ditto on what clw said.

[clw]

Wholesale changes made:
front toe to 1.25°/side, 25° castor blocks, from 25w to 30w front shock oil, lowered front arms back to level, front camber to 0.5°, rear camber to 0°, bones still level, no bump steer spacer, put the weight that was in front bulkhead when I got the car back in looks to be about 0.5oz. I know only make one change at a time but.....

Much, much better, transition between on and off power steering it's a lot more fluid in its movements. In fact the car almost, I said almost, has the not too grabby, you can push be harder it's OK, at either end Losi feel. Did that make sense? In techspeak have I slowed down what?? roll center? Front to rear bias? All of the above and more? Us throttle twisters don't understand 4 wheel dynamics very well.

I think a lot of the prior problem was probably that I had over 1° of toe out before given the slop in the linkage that wasn't being compensated for, great tip Myst and Louis. Toe adjustment affects steering more than I thought.

Got so comfortable with the cars handling that the coarseness of the old 2 pot Tekin was noticeable. It doesn't hum/squeal at small trigger settings it clicks. Not high tech!

Thanks guys for all the good advice!

[Mystracing]

Well technically you lowered the front roll center or more importantly brought the roll axis closer to parallel with the ground by lowering the front end.

The caster blocks reduced the camber change which gives more consistant steering throughout the corner.

You obviously moved the weight bias forward by putting weight in the front. This also slows the steering response because it's more mass further from the center of the car that has to be redirected in a corner.

The shock oil reduced the front roll rate which makes the suspension transition into and out of the corner slower.

The toe is the biggest thing as you suspected. With over a degree of toe out I'm suprised you could even get it around the track, on a soft slick track it's okay if you can't get it to turn into a corner any other way, but if you have any traction at all toe out is a bad thing in my opinion.

Who changes one thing at a time?

[clw]

Given the above, if I wanted a little more mid corner steering, like at the apex to get squared up for the next straight, what is the first adjustment to change? With the 0° rear camber the back end is locked on turn exits and will overpower the fronts. Maybe just a tire change is needed. Picky, picky, eh? Is this an anti-squat issue?

[clw]

"One of the best ways to change the pace of the steering is to flip the steering knuckles upside down and swap them to the other side", source http://www.off-road.com/rc/b3tech/

Does this really work? Just lowering the CG or the front roll center?

[LouisB]

I've never tried it before, I've always had plenty (or too much) steering. It looks like it just lowers the CG, the linkages and roll-center are not altered.

[Mystracing]

clw - Flipping the front steerong blocks actually changes several things.

First it lowers the center of gravity very slightly, because the front roll center is between the front wheels and the CG is in the center of the car it actually lowers the front roll center more than the CG. Most importantly relative to these issues; it tilts the roll axis more downward in the front of the car. The roll axis is a line drawn through the rear and front roll center. Exactly the same thing can be accomplished by running a lower front ride height.

It creates another interesting problem depending on how the front ride height is set after flipping the steering blocks. If the front ride height is set to where the chassis is level or slightly above level in the front. The static front roll center will be higher than with a normal setup, but dynamically it will move farther fromt he CG and then back closer too it as the suspension compresses. The result of this scenario is an upredictable front end. Depending on speed, radius of corner and traction, it can be a good or bad situation but definately an unpredictable one. In laymans terms, if you flip the block and set the ride height to chassis level or slightly above level you really hose up the suspension :D

The other thing it does is it alters the bump steer because the angle of the steering tie rod is increased. I don't have a clue how much effect that would have on the car. I haven't ever been able to really feel a change in bump steer. The purpose of bump steer is to compensate for the car wanting to turn into or away from a bump. When the car hits a bump on one side the suspension on that side is loaded heavier than the other side causing the car to turn away from the bump with toe in, or into the bump with toe out. The bump steer is intended to turn the wheel the opposite direction as the suspension is compressed. Bump steer is another dynamic thing that can actually turn the wheel one direction and then the other depending on how far the suspension is compressed, but is very hard to really predict the handling effect. I don't really mess with bump steer other than running one washer on the steering block with 30 degree blocks and no washers with 25 degree blocks. I have messed with more and less washers but unless you get silly about it, it doesn't seem to change the feel of the car. I think it's because the change from adding one #4 washer is so small.

In the real world on the T3, which is the only vehicle I've actually driven with the blocks inverted, it gives it way too much steering everywhere. It's my personal opinion that inverting the steering blocks to gain steering is like raising the front ride height to 1/2" above the rear to reduce steering. It works but there are a lot of better ways to get the desired effect without negative or unpredictable results.

I noticed in the guys picture he had Blades on the front of the car. I would hazard a guess that his push issue was do to those tires. In my experience car Blades are really weird tires. Sometimes the drastically reduce front traction and sometimes they drastically increase it. And they are so sensitive they can do both in one run if the track conditions are changing like they tend to do on a watered track on a hot day.

[Mystracing]

clw - On your question about the steering of your car it's unclear to me what exactly your talking about. Mid corner steering, or on power/ exit steering? To me mid corner steering is how the car reacts at constant speed around the middle of the corner. If your talking about the steering when you get back on the throttle I'd call that on power steering, and limiting the front shocks, anti squat and the stiffness of the rear springs are the major players in exit / on power steering.

If your talking about mid corner steering like the behavior in sweepers or wider radius turns generally slower relative roll rates make cars better in the wider corners. If you want it to square up like around a hairpin the fast front roll rate with a short camber link to keep the front from rolling too far will make the hairpins quick. This is one of those trade off situations. If the car really squares up like a setup for an indoor hairpin type track, it won't be good in larger radius corners.

[LouisB]

Thanks for clearing up the upside down blocks thing Mystracing, I've never seen a B3 with that mod before so I wasn't sure what it would change.

I tried blades on my truck a while ago, not good, very unpredictable.

[clw]

Originally posted by Mystracing
If your talking about the steering when you get back on the throttle I'd call that on power steering, and limiting the front shocks, anti squat and the stiffness of the rear springs are the major players in exit / on power steering.

Yes, that's it! It's very easy to drive to the apex now. Seemingly neutral steering up to the apex (usually the blunt end of a pipe). But I have to feather the trigger, not to avoid spinning out, but to compensate for (yes, you're right) on power push that will put me into the outside rail. With the contributing factors listed above I'll try limiting the shock first, then from 3° to 1.5° antisquat. This car handles the mid-turn ripples as well as any other buggy so I don't really want to mess with the rear shock/springs. Is this thinking OK?

Originally posted by Mystracing
If you want it to square up like around a hairpin the fast front roll rate with a short camber link to keep the front from rolling too far will make the hairpins quick. This is one of those trade off situations. If the car really squares up like a setup for an indoor hairpin type track, it won't be good in larger radius corners.

There's three hairpins on the track and that's where other people had there way with me, by tucking under my car on exits. At the end of the evening I was doing two different driving techniques to compensate: 1) tapping the brake in an attempt to swing the rear end around (brake slide) but I'm not at a driving skill level to time this right every time; and 2) going wide into the turn, taking a late/deep apex and driving out on the inside. Trouble with #2 is that I gave up control of the turn as the follower takes away the inside line. High speed is good so I don't want to lose anything there either. I'm sure a lot of my problems will go away as I get more driving time, the rust is just starting to come off!

Oh, for a laugh I charged up a battery and drove my old Losi JRX mod car. Actually pretty good handling, but even with a 15Q wasn't that fast. Those were the 7 cell days so going down to a 6 cell made it feel no faster than a modern stock. But it drew more attention at the drivers stand than my B3 does.

[Mystracing]

clw - Your thinking is pretty much straight but you want to increase the rear antisquat if need be not decrease it. Pavidas runs 4 1/2 degrees a lot. It's too much on power steering for me but you might like it. Limit the shocks first though because that won't effect the bump handleing on the rear end. Increasing the anti squat will make onpower bump handling on the rear worse.

[clw]

Myst--have you ever noted the relationship of the front axle centerline to the chassis bottom at full drop? My B3 is about level, the boys XXXT is clearly higher than the bottom and so is the old JRX ( both maybe 5mm or so, I'll measure later). Got a call in to my bud with the XXX that is my target for B3 handling. I think you are, once again, correct about too much drop. The quest continues!

[Mystracing]

Not sure what you mean by "full drop", do you mean when resting at ride height?

[clw]

With the front suspension at full extension. What using inside limiters on the shock controls, how long the shock is. What I noted was that when I held the car in my hand, unsupported, that the relationship of the front axle was 4 or 5 mm above the bottom plane of the chassis. Got the call back on the XXX guy and his setup has one 0.05" inside limiter and the same measurement is 13-14mm above. It was just something I was looking at and tring to relate, again, to dirt bike setups. We always know how far from full extension our bike rests into the travel, both laden w/ the rider and unladen. There are % rules vs. total travel that you adjust to.

So, all other things being equal, under power if both suspension extend to full travel the B3 will be carring a lot less weight on its front wheels, right?

It was a question I asked because, once again, with the Yoke shocks I dodn't know if the Associated limiter spec will give a similar result.

Thanks

[clw]

LouisB:
Would you mind measuring something for me? If Yes, thank you, take off one front wheel and place a straight edge, ruler, yardstick, whatevever and note where the center of the front axle is in relation to the projected bottom of the chassis. For comparision I placed my straight edge in the middle right under the battery area. This should tell me if my Yokomo shocks are longer than the Associated shocks. You're using Myst's setup with the ".065 limiting in front shock (2 thin white shock washers)", right?

Anyway, Myst has already stated that he's sold off his B3 and is waiting for the B4 and warmer weather. Hopefully you've cloned his setup and can help me out.

Thanks

[LouisB]

OK, I think I understand. I measured the distance between the chassis line the middle of the axle is, is that right? It ended up with the middle of the axle 6mm above the bottom of the chassis. If it's just the shock length you're looking for then Myst put it in his set-up:confused:

I've got 2 thin washers in:)

[clw]

Excellent!!

The overall length of the shock would work if I had Associated shocks. But the Yokes must have a different eyelet casting thickness as the 3.23" doesn't quite work. For me to get the same measurement as you I need to add another 0.045" of internal limiter.

Thanks a bunch for your help. Who needs a B4 when you've got a Associated, Yokomo and Losi hybrid!

[LouisB]

No problem:)

Good luck with your races, I'm racing tomorrow as well but with my XXX-S.

[AussieSam]

Hi,

I think you guys are getting a bit carried away with your setups. As long as you have the right tyre combination, the right spring and dampening setup for the track or surface and your car tracks straight your should be right. With the amount of slop in off-road linkages a setup board is a waste of time and money. Even if you can get your toe or camber setup to within a degree the amount of slop can vary twice that much (even with a new car). If you think that half a degree of camber or toe will prevent you from winning a race think again... you better practise more.

Regards,

Sam.

[Mystracing]

Hmmmm - Don't know why I didn't think of that sometime in the last 18 years:D

If you re-read the post about the setup board you might notice; I said it was overkill. Being as I have it I use it.

Also when new there's typically only about 1 degree of play total, and it isn't a waste of time, I suppose I might feel differently if I practiced though instead of just testing setups on my bench.

BTW what's the difference between off road and on road linkages? My TC3 has all the same parts my offroad cars have just different sizes and shapes.

[pudder]

I think he means that you are getting bumped around so much, any little movements could throw your setup off.

I also think you guys are maybe a bit overkill on the setups, but as long as you are having fun!

(Myst- I think that was your shortest post in a long time!)

[clw]

Sorry guys if I'm asking too many questions. My B3 is used and a mishmash of parts. Just trying to get it close to Associated spec. I won't do it again....for awhile!

[Mystracing]

Pudder - The one before it was shorter. :D I'll try to do better this time.

I guess I could have been more polite. I used to totally agree with Sam, Then After years of practice I discovered I was actually a good enough driver to tell a difference when I changed even most very minor items on my car. For newer drivers Sam is totally correct, just keep the car in good condition and practice.

At some point if a person sticks with it long enough they become good enough to run with the big dogs, and at that point the difference between a win and second often comes down to a thousand little details. Driving is alway the biggest part but when your racing with a bunch of other really good people at pretty much the same skill level setup becomes a major factor.

I have to agree that 1/2 a degree of camber or toe won't cost a person a race, but typically peoples cars are way more off than 1/2 a degree. It's the cumulative effect that makes the difference. People have and do regularly loose races because their camber is 2 degrees off on one side and 2 degrees off the other direction on the other side in the rear. I couldn't beleive how far off my settings were when I started using the Hudy board. I thought I was pretty good at setting the camber etc and discovered I was still a degree or more off about everywhere. Probably didn't matter but I like to make everything as right as I possibly can.

Because of crooked wheels and sloppy bearings people often have each setting 2 or three degrees off add them all together and you can end up with an ill handling car and there's no obvious reason for it. Throw in 20 or 30 other things that don't make any difference like wheels out of balance, shocks that are a little low on oil and slightly different lengths, loose bearings, dirty hinge pins, tight or sloppy parts, a dirty motor, improperly adjusted brake, A little to stiff on the rear, a little soft on the front, too much rear pack, no limiters in the shocks etc. etc. and the cumulative effect is a car that looks just like Pavidas's but handles horribly.

It's not that I beleive even for a second that I can win a national championship by finding a perfect setup, I can stay on the same lap as my friend who won the stock nationals last year though. With a bad setup I'd be lucky to finish within 3 laps of him.

Bottom line is your not exactly going to win because of how your car is setup, but you can definately loose because of it.

[LouisB]

IMO anything that will help me get better results can only be a good thing (as long as it doesn't involve cheating);)
I find that a well set up car will, even if my lap times don't change much, improve consistency and allow me to get better results. I find I can drive a neutral and balanced car faster than one with an off set-up.

However, in off-road the track can do strange things and all this tiem spent on setting up a car will not ensure a win, but it helps.

How did your race go clw?
It started raining just before the mod TC final here, and I managed 2nd place (due to my good wet set-up)

[Mystracing]

LouisB - Good job, I envy you guys on that side of the pond getting to run in the rain. Over here most everyone tucks their tail between there legs and runs for cover at the first sign of rain.

[LouisB]

It can be good fun, but not all the time! I had tape all over the bottom of my chassis (which came off) an underbody and blu-tac all over my electronics, and it survived the standing water. Others weren't so lukcy, 1 guy blew his speedo and it stopped dead (boring and expensive) and another guy broke his receiver and got stuck at full throttle (more exciting and still expensive)
The best bit was when it disappeared into a hedge and they couldn't get it out again! LOL

It's not so much fun with off-road, MUD! Horrible slimy cars that need a complete rebuild after every meeting:(
Not to mention falling on your a$$ when you slip over when righting a car (I won't say who that happened to, just that my coat wasn't brown before;) )

[clw]

Lunchtime, wow are things stirred up!

Originally posted by LouisB
How did your race go clw?
It started raining just before the mod TC final here, and I managed 2nd place (due to my good wet set-up)

Tucked tail and ran, from the rain that is. Had a cold front come through and dump about an inch of rain in 1 hour. Had my race face on too!

Here's a few links to the local track:
http://hometown.aol.com/teamlucie/
http://hometown.aol.com/b4k2t/myhomepage/profile.html

The red clay used for the surface material has a terrible percolation rate. It takes too long to dry without regrading the track, something I guess they don't do at night races.

The biggest reason I'm so **** about getting the setup right is that I am trained to be machine sensitive. Over the years I've developed suspension valving and spring setups for 2 dirt bike suspension companies, a good setup can only help..

Plus my sons XXXT almost drives itself around the track, it's very forgiving, my buds triple x is too, instead of just buying new my goal was/is to make the B3 up to their level, I'm almost there.

Rain racing = too many $ for me!

Where's that box of raisins?

[clw]

HMMM... I triggered the software censor! Starts with an A and ends with a L.

[Mystracing]

I didn't mean to imply I really want to race in the rain, Id just rather race in the rain than wait until the next weekend to race. If it was very bad I'd have to wimp out on the electrics and just run the GT though.

[LouisB]

Yeah, I knew what you meant;) , it's just that there's a point where it can be better not to race and not risk damaging electronics. Most of the time it's not too bad, and there's plenty of grip to be had in the mud but it drains the battery very quickly. There isn't much of a problem in 2wd but in 4wd last time it was muddy EVERYONE dumped because the tires were sticking to the tacky mud.

If anyone happens to race their B3 in the rain then I have 2 tips.
1) Most importantly velcro the body to the chassis and CA the velcro on. As soon as the water meets the velcro it will fall off without glue.
2) Plug the ariel hole with blu-tack (and electronics if you feel like it)

The only time I got water inside was when I left the plug out.

[LouisB]

Yeah, I knew what you meant;) , it's just that there's a point where it can be better not to race and not risk damaging electronics. Most of the time it's not too bad, and there's plenty of grip to be had in the mud but it drains the battery very quickly. There isn't much of a problem in 2wd but in 4wd last time it was muddy EVERYONE dumped because the tires were sticking to the tacky mud.

If anyone happens to race their B3 in the rain then I have 2 tips.
1) Most importantly velcro the body to the chassis and CA the velcro on. As soon as the water meets the velcro it will fall off without glue.
2) Plug the ariel hole with blu-tack (and electronics if you feel like it)
The only time I got water inside was when I left the plug out.

clw, the weather forecast is not looking good for the coming buggy race:( If it rains then I'll still vote to keep racing!

[JIP2587]

Hi,

Sorry haven't been on the boards lately due to school work and good weather:D , so I'm just a bit late on this subject.

I read the upside down block idea long before it was posted here, and I've tried it. At my track it makes the car much easier to drive, and the formentioned instability and unpredictability don't seem to appear. It really does make a bit of a difference.

And to whoever asked who tunes their cars one adjustment at a time, I do.
Trying a thousand things at once never seems to work:p

James

[LouisB]

I tried Mysts set-up again, the track had a bit more grip. I didn't change oil or springs but added a slight amount of toe-out.

My car was flying, I was provisional TQ after the 2nd quialifying round but quailfied 5th for the final after some serious traffic in the final qualifier. In the final I got of to a good start (kept it smooth) and after a few mins I was battling for 2nd place with the leader only a couple of seconds ahead. After getting up to 2nd my servo packed up and wouldn't turn at all! I think it is an electronic failure inside the servo b/c the gears are fine:(

There was one good thing that came of it though. I put my TX down and started filming the rest of the final, unfortunately they weren't very good as I was a long way away from the cars.

[Mystracing]

JIP2587 - I know there was a lot to read but if you look back that was a sarcastic comment.

Louse - Me thinks you need a lucky rabbits foot or something similar:-)

It was our first race of the season today and it was torture watching the buggy class and not owning one. I sure hope they hurry up with that B4.

Took gas truck by 2 laps though.

[LouisB]

Originally posted by Mystracing
Louse - Me thinks you need a lucky rabbits foot or something similar:-)

You could be right there, LOL Or maybe a "lucky" KO servo?

Good job with your truck, I haven't got one yet but I'm saving up for a XXX-NT, GT or MST-1. I'll stick with my T-Maxx until then

[clw]

Methinks?? That word takes me back to reading Shakespeare in front of class! Now that's painful.

Congrats Mr. Myst on the 2 lap victory. Our nitro guy won by at least 6 laps, he was the only one still running! Maybe I should get one and just cruise to 2nd.

Louis, water get in the servo? LOL Could be!

Me, 1st race back in a dozen years, they put me in Novice with 11 other hackers and hasbeens. Qualified and finished 2nd, 8 seconds back. Had a good run going and was closing on 1st but botched 2 laps in a row and dropped back. The novice victor ain't no novice. His time would have put him in 4th in Mod. truck, so I don't feel too bad.

What's the Nitro vehicle charm? They seem so problematic and they aren't fast, at least lap times aren't so good. My average speed was only bested by one gasser!

[LouisB]

No water, LOL I can't workout how it happened. It's a 625MG which has lasted over a year. I'm gonna send it back, even if it starts working again b/c I'll never trust it to stay working!
What should I replace it with until then? What do u run?

It looks like I was the only person who screwed up his race last week;)

My 1/8 Nitro buggy is fast, sometimes too fast! I can get it round the track faster than my B3 and it is very reliable. The engine I have in it ran at an acceptable temperature for 45 mins non stop when I was racing some other guys round the track.

clw, r u going to win it next week? I need to win my race (and the other guy finish 4th or below) to get 4th place in the championship.

[LouisB]

I'm going to try and put a video up.

it's taken with this Kodak EZ200 camera, with an amazing 160x120 video capability and 4mb memory !!!!!
http://www.kodak.com/global/images/en/service/products/ekn011772.jpg

This is part of the 2wd A final, you may be able to see my car stationary by the guy in the orange/white jacket :(

Here (http://www.grccc.supanet.com/gallery/2wdafinal.AVI)

[clw]

Originally posted by LouisB
What do u run?

clw, r u going to win it next week?

1. Servo, don't laugh, the eBay special has a standard Hitec 303. Slow and weak, like me! In a high traction turn you can see the servo doesn't have the holding power to keep the wheels turned, it's my patented "anti-roll control".

2. Doubtful, a state race is next week. That's why we had a lighter than normal turnout (or so they say) because the racers don't want to screw up their cars before the big event! Odd, if it was me I'd want the practice! The local track organizers are into this big time and are all going. So I don't know if they'll have local races or not. If not I might try a more hobbyist track a little further away.

[LouisB]

"don't laugh" tough LOL LOL:D I have the same problem with my 12th servo, it carries on in a straight line when i go round high speed corners!

Does the video work now?

[clw]

Louis:

How do you make a work clickable? ie, the word "here" to open your video. A ubb code?

[LouisB]

I use the "http://" button because I uploaded the video to my club's website and linked to it. Unless it is already on the web then you can't do it like that:)

[Mystracing]

Louis - Cool track, it looks like a lot of fun. I run Airtronics 94357's and 94358's in everything. Actually some of them are the older versions (155's, 157's, 257's, and 258,s). They're expensive but good for 10+ years horsing a Gas truck around the track. I've never damaged one and I've been running them for over 10 years. There are other good servos but almost everyone at our track is running the high end airtronics.

clw - Good job.

We had 6 trucks still running at the end of the main. Good drivers that have put in the work will run very close to mod truck times with a GT on any track and faster on wide open tracks. My fast lap of the day was with the Gasser at 25.57, but my average was 26.82, my mod truck average was faster at 26.47. There's no charm for gas trucks they're simply evil.

Actually it mostly comes down to the following.

1. You can't get away with anything cheap. It's first class or forget about Nitro.

2. You need to be able to handle a serious mod in an electric, not necessarily be fast but know how to control the throttle.

3. Running fast lap times is mostly in the setup of the clutch and brake.

4. Being stubborn as a mule is a definate plus.

If there's a charm it's preparation and persistance more than anything else. I spend a lot of time during the week making sure my GT is as perfect as I can possibly get it. I can't remember the last time I failed to finish a nitro main, but I've finished several with a hurt truck including one with three wheels for a win in a 30 minute race. I broke a front a-arm at about the 25 minute point with a 7 or 8 lap lead, so the pit man just ripped the left front tire assembly off and I babied it in. Fortunately it was a predominantly left hand track and the truck actually still ran pretty good with the exception of braking.

[LouisB]

Everyone seems to like Airtronics servos! They're distrbuted under the name Sanwa over here and there don't appear to be very many models.
One thing a can get is KO, my uncle gave me a KO 712/713 (can't remember which) for my bday and it'ss been great in my TC. I have the top hitec digital in my gas buggy and it's survived great and makes a huge difference on the track, I think it's the 5945.

I'll have a look at the KO servos as they have a very good rep over here. I was considering buying a XXX-4 so I'm prepared to spend some money on a decent servo;)

Myst, what do you think the top gas truck is at the moment? At my club the Losis and GTs are evenly matched and there is 1 Mugen.

You see the big table top that the cars are on at the start of the clip? well I took a run up from the far left wall with my Hyper 7 and it flew right own to the opposite side of the track! A big crowd had assembled up where i took that video and there were plenty of "OOOOH"s :D

[clw]

Our nitro guys look out of control! Hit the downside of a tabletop? Nahh! They seem to be a little slower to spool up and when they do the straightaway is over and its OH MY GOD I GOTTA TURN TIME. Many broken trucks.

Myst-You're well prepared and it shows, beside obviously a talented driver. Did you TQ?

Louis-based on my extensive experience and khnowledge (not) no nothings use anything, the local track hobbyist will go a little more for a MG Hitec and the addicted guys mostly use Airtronics. Just my opinion though. Adicted, me, almost there!

[Mystracing]

Louis - I know KO makes some good servos, but I don't know which ones. There are a couple guys at our track running KO equipment.

As far as which gas truck I think is best I've never seen a mugen in person. Only difference I see between the other 2 is If a GT and Losi tangle hard the Losi will be the one damaged 9 out of 10 times. Losi's also blow trannies and other things periodically.

clw - No TQ's yesterday 2nd in Gas Truck and 4th in Mod Truck. I was about 3 seconds off tq in mod truck. There's a lot of tough competition in that class here. Ended up 4th due to some bad driving. I don't think I have much talent, but 18 years of racing every chance you get does wonders for your driving.

Definition of Gas Truck - Wide open throttle till you see god; then BRAKE!

I'm going to quit talking gas truck on this thread after this post. Sorry for those that are offended.

The typical gas truck driver flys to fast into the corner, brakes hard totally disengaging the clutch and dropping the motor to idle; spins thier truck around nails the throttle waits for their clutch to engage (that's about 3 tenths of a second with a cheap radio and servo) then their clutch locks at too high of an rpm and then they struggle to control massive wheelspin down the straight just to do it again in the next corner.

I slow at about the 3/4 point on a 100' straught, get back on the power going into the corner to re-enguage the clutch, drive through the corner, and when I nail the throttle the truck takes off like a rocked (with a servo transit of about 30 degrees to full throttle that's about 3 hundreths of a second, with no clutch lag) The difference is about a lap a minute on our track from the people that drive like mentioned above.

That's just one of a slew of things that make a gas truck turn fast laps but we'll have to switch threads to discuss it further.

Actually that's true of how I drive a B3 as well. If your braking or coasting through the corners your not running as fast as you can. you should brake before the corner then drive through it. You'll have a higher corner and most important exit speed which drastically reduces the chance of breaking the rear end loose when you nail it down the next straight.

Like how I tied that back into the B3:D

[LouisB]

Slick link Myst:)

No more nitro;)
I use a similar method when driving my cars. It's much more consistent to slow down ( I normally just coast rather than brake when the track is slick) before the corner rather than trying to slide the car round the corner. I drop back from people entering corners but always pull up or pass them through the corner. And as the corners are the best place for overtaking the method works well.

You're right about the track being fun to drive. I set that one myself b/c I wanted something smooth and fast even though I only have a 13turn in it. My B3 worked well because I could carry more speed down the bumpy section without flipping than anyone else, I bought the black front springs and those made the difference.