Firebat

[loumoll]

Hey, somone out there has one. Tell us about it. How do those forward canards work?

[Jethro]

I would like to know also

[2NG]

Canard in a nutshell: elevator in front of the wing. A Canard aircraft is one in which the horizontal stabilizer and elevators are ahead of the main wing. Such aircraft still have the same controls as the conventional aircraft they are just in different places.

Most classic example: The Wright Brother's Flyer. The Firebat as shown in the pic;)

[Dave Robelen]

Hi Loumol,
A canard works exactly opposite a regular elevator. If you want the nose to rise with a tail mounted elevator, the elevator lifts DOWN at the rear, causing the nose to rise. The canard works by lifting the nose directly when you call for a climb. This is why the elevator on a canard moves opposite that of a tail mounted elevator for the same effect.
Regards, Dave

[loumoll]

Last call for that hands-on Firebat Review! I saw the video review at the store but was only 45 seconds long. Lets here from a hands-on owner!

[teda]

Here's Mine,

It's going together well but I bought a german kit that Great Planes is obviously distributing in the US, so all the instructions are in Deutch! hehe. It's going together quite well.

[teda]

Here's the detail of the "flying canard" surface

[loumoll]

cool: Great Pictures!!! Get that thing together and get it up in the air!!! I think I'm going to buy one in a week or two so send me that air-to-air report ASAP.:cool:

[teda]

It flies! =). I crashed it the first time because for some reason, the recommended CG on my plans was way too far forward. It broke into three pieces so I had to glue it together to get it working again. Also Speed 400 made the bird a bit too underpowered, I put in a speed 480 to give it a bit more zip. The canards don't have a whole lot of control power. The bird doesn't wanna loop. The ailerons have plenty of authority and the thing rolls like it's attached to the bit on a power drill. It's a blast to fly.

Remeber,

Set your CG a bit aft of the recommendation,

Add more power,

Reduce Aileron throw a bit to help with control harmony.

[loumoll]

:D Great job on the feedback. I saw a local guy fly it and he said the same thing about the motor :( . It looked pretty underpowered with the Speed 400. I'm glad it's better with 480 :D . I can't believe it won't loop :( . Overall, I guess your report is favorable;) Keep me posted with any new development :D

[AirWarriorBelgy]

not being able to loop is real evidence of 1 of 3 things or a combination of all
1) not enough power
2) CG too far forward
3) not enough deflection (or too much w/ canards) in control surface

you guys have confirmed at least two of these detractors
but even if CG was too far forward, it could be compensated with power and surface deflection

CG alone will not totally restrict a plane from looping, if there is enough power and deflection it will loop... but very sluggishly

so i would say that the culprit in this case is, as you stated,
power...of course the next thing to consider would be, how tight a loop you tried to execute... i can see where canards would begin to act as flaps at a low thrust output (such as what happens when climbing to vertical, coming closer to stall speed. in essence the canard becomes flaps and actually dampens speed and manueverability.)

after you get a larger motor on it try looping gradually starting from a shallow dive and pulling out slowly....you should be able, at the very least, to perform a hammerhead...or stall loop.

just an idea in theory....i'm probably wrong

Belgy

[teda]

The bird will loop, HOWEVER, it eats up so much altitude it's not funny, and it's scary unless you are VERy high. This bird is so dinged up I'm half thinking I will build another one and incorporate all the improvements. Close-coupled canard airplanes have historically been very sluggish in pitch. That's why all the fighters that use this format (i.e. Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen, HAL LCA, Shenyang J-10) are relaxed stability designs, with the CG so far aft that it requires a computer to augment stability. The next firebat I build will incorporate the following changes:

1. Mid fuselage mounted motor, with a shaft driving a rear mounted prop, so as to lessen the nose weight needed.

2. Speed 480 right off the bat

3. Two micro servos to make the ailerons on the trailing edge of the main delta wing into flaperons. (The eurofighter mixes these controls for pitch, as well as flaps). Mixed to provide opposite input for pitch, and same direction input for extra lift during landing.

4. Drill a hole in the torque tube for the canards so that I can put a wire through the control arm into the tube, so the surfaces don't keep slipping.

5. Paint the sucker BEFORE I put it together!!!

[AirWarriorBelgy]

what my thinking is teda

very long very wide loops because of the canards

Belgy

[Dave Robelen]

Hi Belgy,
There are probably a couple of things combined here. The all moving canards certainly would be "softer " than a canard with an elevator. I have seen and flown canard pattern models where the elevator was hinged on the back of the canard. Plenty of pitch control.
Another factor is the wing design. Being nearly a delta, it will require almost twice the change in pitch angle for a given lift change. Combine this with the soft canard and it is a wonder it will loop at all.
Regards, Dave

[teda]

Not only is it a delta main wing, it's also a delta type canard, large deflections seem to add an AMAZING amount of drag. Of course this gives the bird a nice speed range but at high speeds it's kind of disturbing to jiggle the elevator and nothing happens. Also the foam ailerons suck big dookie, so I'd replace those with balsa strips next time. Oh! Did I mention that this thing flies and looks a lot like the Su-27 in the air? It's cool, with a bit more aft CG I might be convinced to try Pugachev's cobra.