Is it really offroad ?

[Peterbilt]

I have seen many pic of offroad tracks and have noticed something. Alot of them extremely hard-packed. I am not offending off road racers, but simply stating a noticed fact. I kinda wonder why its called offroad when really you could almost race touring cars on the tracks if the jumps weren't there. Also on these tracks theres a "preferred racing line", and people are using special blue groove tires and such. I really can't consider anything so hardpacked with a preferred line, and special racing designated, blue groove tires, offroad racing. Everything is too smooth, even the transition from the track up the jump. The jumps are awesome but hardpacked "offroad racing" ?. I'm not flaming anyones interests, just stating what i have noticed and i like hearing peoples opinions.

:rollin

[TC3Racer]

yea we've had this argument before.... i also do agree about some off-road tracks very hard packed.... i took a practice day on one of those tracks with my T3 and i was running bow ties on a stock P2K and by the end of the day the inside of each tire had turned to slick.... the only real track that are that hard packed are really popular tracks that are IFMAR, NORRCA or ROAR sanctioned... i mainly race at a hobby shope track that is not sanctioned by any major organization and although we have 100+ T-maxxers alone every race day we like to keep it dusty and an actual off road track with lots of oversteer!

[Peterbilt]

Yea, i'm more into the kinda truck where your flingin dirt, and your truck might actually look like it went offroad. Its seems more like offroad when you sorta slide the truck into the turn and counter steer, like rallying. Not like fulll scale on road racing where theres sort of a preferred line and you turn perfectly into the turn.

[Nutter]

I totally & utterly agree with what you're saying - Part of me is dissapointed in those who create & advocate these blue-groove 'off-road' tracks. Of course, the other part of me says 'whatever floats your boat; I'll just stick to real off-road tracks'.

I've made a fair few posts here about this subject as I do feel quite strongly about the subject because I truely do think it's doing the off-road racing scene more harm than good having blue-groove tracks. I would really like to see a return to the looser surfaces of the 80's & early 90's. Ahh.. the good 'ol days! :p

Unfortunately there's not much racers can do apart from start going to a different (non-blue groove) track and hope that others will follow your example until it makes enough of an impact on the first track that the maintainers change its surface. After all, if a track is popular, why would they change it if they think they're onto something "good"?


-Nutter

[Grease-Monkey]

If you tried to race a normal off-road truck on loose packed sand you wouldn't be able to controll the truck.

[Skribble]

Actually, you can because my last race was on a track like that. :) I mean, if it's Off road, why is the track so smooth? It's also easier to break parts since it's so packed. It would be more fun if the track wasn't like a Touring car track ..

[Anthony]

just tink of it buggy/ralley raceing id perfer and actuel off-road track where theres rock piles and asand pit for you truck to get stuck in

[trunz4]

I know what your saying...............I miss the good old days. In the late 80's or early 90's, when you raced a dirt track......you raced a dirt track. I'm talkin' spiked tires on loose dirt and it took all you had not to spin out in the turns....that was fun! Not to mention when we raced, there were many different brands out there racing: Associated, Losi, kyosho, Tamiya.

The local dirt oval that I go to is hard-packed clay. Its smooth enough to run my TC3 around it. (It turns some great lap times by the way).

[Anthony]

i love the monster truck that i have its a txt-1 it bigger than a clod buster but it has the same tires its more like a juggernaut II

[Rick Hohwart]

The reason hard core races like blue groove tracks is consistency. The same conditions exist at all times and fast runs are always possible. Consistency was a big problem in the past. If you leave tracks as is they would break up and if you did not have a fast run in the first round of qualifying you were finished.

Some will say you should adapt to the conditions which is fine but you can't make up 1-2 seconds per lap because the track conditions are different.

Think about off road in general. Do real off road cars ever encounter jumps 10 times the height of their cars? or ruts the size of their entire cars?

Times change also. I bet it would be hard to sell a track that didn't have good traction. Seems like spinning out is the last thing a beginner wants to do.

Look at on road. If blue groove off road tracks are silly then what about spraying sugar water on asphalt tracks to improve traction. There is a big difference in traction on full size road race tracks. And what about racing on carpet!

[Skribble]

Think about off road in general. Do real off road cars ever encounter jumps 10 times the height of their cars? or ruts the size of their entire cars? I'm not sure if ruts are they big, or they jump that high, but Baja/Desert Racing is similiar.

[Anthony]

i dont evenlike buggy raceing all that much its bore boring that on-road raceing

[Skribble]

Buggy Racing as in 1/8 or 1/10? :confused:

[Anthony]

t3 and i think ultimas?
that style

[Skribble]

1/10 Electric 2WD .. That's boring? Why?

[Anthony]

there just so simple then you go to mt's there complcated thats what i like

[Skribble]

Jus' cause there simple? Lmao. They're faster then some nitro cars. Good enough for me.

[Anthony]

thats becuse theres nothing to them i dont hate them i own a origanal rc10 i dont like the racing

[Poolboy51]

simple works for me:)

[Anthony]

my rc truck has about 800 part inclueding screws

[hpiguy]

Anthony:

One, try to stay on topic. This isn't a monster truck thread. Nobody cares how many parts you think your TXT-1 has compared to a T3.

Two, try to be coherent in what you are typing. I'm assuming that you are about 11 years old and fail English class. You have been on these boards for a short time and all your posts are one sentence with no punctuation, and usually lack any real point besides rambling. Slow down while typing and explain the answers you give. Saying "this sucks, mine's better" will get you nowhere.

[Nutter]

Rick: I know the consistancy is a plus for some.. but I definately feel that it's a huge minus. The whole 'thing' about off-road is that it's inconsistant - it changes over the period of the race day; and even the race itself.

Real life example: In sprint car racing (far from my favorite sport in all honestly) the berm moves out towards the wall over the race day and as the fastest line is riding the berm, the driving line has to change to suit it. Same with ruts, they develop over the course of the race day and also alter the driving line. Sprint car racing is the #2 motor sport in the US btw, only behind Nascar.. and if inconsistant tracks are that 'unpopular'.. well.. umm.. :D

As for the jumps being 10x the size of the car, you have to remember that the suspension on off-road RC's is made for that much travel, unlike a real cars suspension.

On-road tracks being sprayed with sugar water is one thing - they're meant to be high traction & requiring precise driving.. that's not off-road. If you want high traction & precise driving, then you should be racing on-road, not off-road! :p


-Nutter

[LokiOs]

I race both type of offroad track's and think ther are definate differences between the two. But I in no way feel one is so far ahead of the other. I can understand why you would want consistancy in racing. If the track is going to change dramatically throughout the day, the first couple of heats are going to have a SERIOUS advantage over everyone going later and having to race on a "worse" track. If you could make a track consistant and non hard packed, the thats may be a way to go.
Now personally I prefer the hard packed tracks, even though I do much MUCH better on the outdoor, fluffy, unpredictable tracks. It's just my personal prefrence.

[Anthony]

I'm assuming that you are about 11 years old and fail English class. do you have proof of that?

You have been on these boards for a short time and all your posts are one sentence with no punctuation, and usually lack any real point besides rambling. what do you do stalk people?

Saying "this sucks, mine's better" will get you nowhere. i have never said that unless they really do but that is my opinion NOT YOURS K...

[InspGadgt]

I agree and disagree...kinda split on the subject...being a racer I'd prefer ideal conditions at all times...but your right...it's not like the baja racing where everything's loose...but from a race director's point of view...I prefer the tight packed tracks with very little dust. Less dust messes up the computer's insides less...also makes it easier to count the cars if your not using transponders. I had one race that was quite literally so dusty that the 1st run of the day all the turn marshall saw at the end of the straight was this huge dust cloud coming toward him with the little buggy noses sticking out of the front...

[Got Speed]

I'm for both. I know alot of tracks couldn't have both but that would be cool to race my T-Maxx in real offroad terrain and my GT on dirt oval and hard packed offroad tracks.

That would be so cool not having to worry about a perfect suspension setup and bowties that wear out so quick and taking the perfect course through the track. I could imagine monster trucks rolling and jumping all over each other and everything.:D They could have like a sand pit, some large bumps(dirt clods, rocks pressed into the ground,ect), all different jumps, and could you imagine a muddy section?! That would be difficult to do but no more maintanence than a normal track once you have the hang of it. I would love to race that with one truck and race dirt oval and offroad with the other!:)

[jjstroke]

well I think it could also depend on regional conditions.. where we race in south carolina, they dont have DIRT dirt, it is just the really red clay... it is impossible no matter what you do to NOT have it packed.. about 30 min down the road and up into the mountains, red clay is non existent, and the dirt is normal 'dirt'

Since I have not raced on any other track other than ours here... I could be wrong..

but even though ours stays packed all the time, the track conditions vary tremendously from race to race, depending on how wet track is, hot the weather is, etc... sometimes its packed but very muddy, sometimes its packed but with a very light dust on it... the difference is night and day and requires to completely different setups on my part.

I am hoping to visit my dad in clearwater soon, and from what Ive heard they have alot of nationals races there, and I am imagining some very very awsome tracks... I hope to meet some cool guys too for tips hehe

[SnAtZeRpAzOoKa]

Man! I would love to see one of those. Just off road with dirt clods and all. but the bad thing is, I don't have a t-maxx. I got a RC10GT. BUT! I am going to sell the gt at the end of the summer and get a t-maxx. IT'S GONNA BE FUN!

[bohica]

Below is just a quick sketch from memory of an obstacle course type track that a hobby shop in Burbank had. You ran against the clock. It was cool but would get boring after awhile.

Bohttp://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v3/6/27/62/42062762lGUKoq_ph.jpg

[RC Freak]

you said you might come down to clearwater and race sometime, well i live right outside of clearwater and race at the track in Aiken SC. called ORA Atomic Racers Club. it is a great track. It is the real offroad track. It has dirt called Carolina Clay, but the dirt is no packed, and not loose like sand. We run stepins, and have huge jumps. If you would like i will give you their site and help with your setups if you would tell me the name of your cars. The Watermellon Classic is its largest race of the year. It is on July 25-28 and is limited to 350 entries. Last year it was not limited to entries and there were about 450 peaple. They also hold a race almost every weekend. It varys from sat. to sun. like this 1st and 3rd weekends of the month is on sat and 2nd and 4th weekends are on sun. I have not found anyone at the track who is rude or mean we all just try to have a great time and help each other out. well cya

[cnroman]

Does anyone watch the CORR series now on Speedvision? That's off road, no blue groove stuff, just dirt an dust.
I raced off-road in the mid 90's, the track was wet-down before each heat/main, by the halfway point you were spewing rooster-tails! That was fun! On the down-side, it involved a lot of cleaning between heats.

[ProjectTwin]

A true off-road track (http://www.maxxtraxx.com/cgi-bin/NewsPub/News/Stories/2002/05/26/10224444451.shtml).

That one is located right here in Augusta.

The triple is 30 feet from peak to peak.

It's clay too. No blue groove for us.

Jason

[WheelNut]

:eek: BLIMEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats an awsome track!

[Nutter]

Wow! :cool: If a r/c track can be beautiful, that one is a godess! :p I can see why it's called "Field of Dreams"!!! *drool*


-Nutter

[Poolboy51]

Holy crap thats the best track I have ever seen. I wish we had a track where we could even race at.:rolleyes: :mad:

[Little Al]

Originally posted by ProjectTwin
A true off-road track (http://www.maxxtraxx.com/cgi-bin/NewsPub/News/Stories/2002/05/26/10224444451.shtml).

That one is located right here in Augusta.

The triple is 30 feet from peak to peak.

It's clay too. No blue groove for us.

Jason



ProjectTwin, I agree awsome track!!!! Is there any way to see a few more pics of the track..........................:)

[racerdx6]

i dont race at one of those tracks. my off road track is not smooth. the only smooth part is the straight. there is grass and weeds growing in the middle of it. and even without the jumps a touring car could not race there at all. i think off road racing should be more about surviving the jumps and bumps. having to use bow tie or step pin rear tires and and having to survive the mud more than fast laps. thats for on road racing.

[Skribble]

Another thing I hate about packed tracks is the tire wear. :mad: You gotta buy tires pretty often, or you'll be driving in circles 'cause no traction. :(

[ProjectTwin]

Little Al,

There are more pics here (http://www.unlimitedengineering.com/RacerX.shtml) in the slideshow, and there are more here (http://www.therchouse.com/gallery/list.asp?CategoryID=12&Name=Building a Track Photos), building vids (http://www.therchouse.com/gallery/list.asp?CategoryID=16&Name=Building a Track Videos), and some front flips on the 30 foot triple (http://www.therchouse.com/video/SuperMaxxFlipping.wmv).

There are also some bashing vids of the Augusta track on my site (http://www.projecttwin.com).

RC Freak mentioned ORA, there are pics of ORA here (http://www.therchouse.com/gallery/list.asp?CategoryID=31&Name=ORA Pictures), and videos of ORA here (http://www.therchouse.com/gallery/list.asp?CategoryID=32&Name=ORA Videos).

ORA is nice, but the guy that runs the place is hard to get along with. Since so many people in the Augusta area were tired of dealing with him, they decided to build the Field of Dreams.


Jason

[Little Al]

That is a freaking awsome track Jason, I printed the first pic that you post this morning to take to out track and to show the guys I run with. How nice it would be to have a place like that to run.

If I read it correctly I thought I saw where this is at a county park.
The county which I live in has many very nnice county parks and two R/C plane air feilds......they have had them for years.
This got me thinking, I am friends with one of our county commisoners and wouldn't mind trying to get a project like this started in our area.
Can you tell me how big of a role you played in this? where did you start? I saw a modle of the track for a layout, did you make this to show them what you folks wanted?
Another one did you have county money and workers build this? Was it you guys building?
Love to hear anything you can tell me.

Like I said all our guy were in love with it.

Great pic and thank you for sharing them with us.:)

I think others from the board might enjoy hearing how you folks did this but feel free to e-mail me if you would rather not post it here.

I did not mean to change the subject.


Thanks again

Al

[ProjectTwin]

Al,

A bunch of the guys were tired of the "conflicts" that seemed to happen at ORA, so they decided to build their own track.

The county had an old softball field that wasn't being used. A buddy of mine (a civil engineer) with the help of a few maxxers, laid out the general idea for the track. The design was put into CAD and presented to the county.

The driver's stand is located so that another track can be installed on the opposite side as the current track, meaning the stand would be in the middle of the two. The big floodlights used for softball games are more than adequate for night racing. :)

I was in Korea during all of this, it's just a group of friends that went to the county and put the offer in front of them. The land was otherwise going to waste.

The county will get a percentage of what the track makes (hardly anything), but it's not even open yet.

The wood for the driver's stand was donated by International Paper, Hughes Machine donated the scaffolding for the stand as well as some equipment, and Ultimate Hobbies donated money for supplies. Between having a civil engineer and guys familiar with landscaping and in-ground irrigation, as well as an electrician, it all worked out well.

I've gone out a few weekends since I came back from Korea to help, but with the new baby and job time is scarce.

Anyway...loamy clay rules! :D

Jason

[Little Al]

Thanks for the info Jason, I will think about how we can do something like that here. The feild with the lights already up were a big plus.

Thanks again.....:cool:

[rc_racer269]

Originally posted by Nutter
utter

hahahahahahahahahahahaha.....

[aspiringrcracer710]

The kind of track I would like is after a steady rain. The muddy surface is just the kind of racing we ought to have on non muddy tracks

[aspiringrcracer710]

I have a design that features a 120 ft front straightaway, 22 turns, and some impressive jumps. Im trying to find a track that would want to look at it as a possible nationals race layout

[Conman]

Back to what cnroman said about the CORR siries. Has anyone besides me ever noticed that the tires and A-arms do NOT stick out the side of the truck. The stadium trucks that we race don't even look like the ones in CORR. The buggies are all right but the stadium trucks look like an over sized buggy with a "truck" looking body. I'm not trying to rag on stadium trucks because thats what I race.

[Nutter]

Originally posted by Conman
Has anyone besides me ever noticed that the tires and A-arms do NOT stick out the side of the truck. The stadium trucks that we race don't even look like the ones in CORR. The buggies are all right but the stadium trucks look like an over sized buggy with a "truck" looking body.That's cos our ST's are buggies that were stretched a bit to make them bigger & more truck looking, duh. :p I love the look of out ST's though - they're very, very cool.. it'd take a lot of the cool factor out of it if they looked like the boring real-life ST's. Notice how much the car from the Final Fantasy movie looks like a mix of an RC ST and 1/8th buggy.. I think I know where they got the inspiration for it from. ;)
Can you imagine how poorly a realistic looking RC ST would look though, with the chassis as wide as the wheels?


-Nutter

[Conman]

Uh.......no.

Sorry you don't like them, but they look pretty kick a$$ to me!

[aspiringrcracer710]

CORR

now thats where its at when it comes to offroad. we ought to have all offroad tracks in RC like that

[Conman]

Well I guess you could put longer shocks on a Rally car and put a truck body on it.

[Conman]

Another-

[aspiringrcracer710]

Getting back on topic:

What really needs to be discussed here is what constitutes real offroad. I have a few designs that I am getting ready to send to a track in Cali(fornia), and They might try to use them for the world championships. But really offroad is dirt flyin everywhere, huge suspension travel, big jumps, even bigger airtime and door bangin in the corners for every position. RC offroad should be that way too

[R_C_hoodlum]

The off-road track I drive at ( Twin City Hobby and Raceway )is a blue groove track and you could never drive a touring car on it, even if you took out the jumps. Sure it's really hard packed but it's also really bumpy, you actually have to steer to keep your car straight on the straight away or else the bumps will make your car run straight into a barrier or wall.

[Conman]

Minnesota Yeaaaaaaah!

[R_C_hoodlum]

is that good or bad?:confused:

[Conman]

Good, has snow, good for snowmobiling. Has a lot of RC tracks, good for racing. I love this state.

[R_C_hoodlum]

well thats good, but I can't snomobile, don't have one, instead I snowboard.

[aspiringrcracer710]

Guys, lets keep it on the topic at hand. What is REAL offroad? I know that everybody's definition is gonna be different so lets not have any of this rippin each others heads off stuff

[Conman]

Sorry.
I think that it's any track that doesn't have a blue groove or a perfered line. I like to beable to powerslide though the turns.

[jeepinator]

Originally posted by Rick Hohwart
The reason hard core races like blue groove tracks is consistency. The same conditions exist at all times and fast runs are always possible. Consistency was a big problem in the past. If you leave tracks as is they would break up and if you did not have a fast run in the first round of qualifying you were finished.

Some will say you should adapt to the conditions which is fine but you can't make up 1-2 seconds per lap because the track conditions are different.

Think about off road in general. Do real off road cars ever encounter jumps 10 times the height of their cars? or ruts the size of their entire cars?

Times change also. I bet it would be hard to sell a track that didn't have good traction. Seems like spinning out is the last thing a beginner wants to do.

Look at on road. If blue groove off road tracks are silly then what about spraying sugar water on asphalt tracks to improve traction. There is a big difference in traction on full size road race tracks. And what about racing on carpet! Good points from a highly respected RC professional.
I would like to add that your average RC person may not be so surgically logical in their desires. I would fall into that category.
Your point, that since none of it is scale or realistic, give up and just use what works, is depressing. I would like to keep it just a shade more realistic than using buggies (or worse, trucks) designed for harsh off-road conditions on tracks that are nothing more than on-road courses with a 3rd dimension.
The super stable tracks we see at major events are mostly (IMO) desired by racers who can compete at this level. For the lowly enthusiast, like myself, this is not the case. Winning races is FAR less of a concern to me than, say, Mark Pavidis (my hero, hehe).

What the big dogs of RC, like Rick here, seem to forget is WHY people get energized by RC. The draw, as far as I have witnessed, is not sterilized dirt tracks you see in RCCA. It is the tracks with character, the tracks that match the theme of off road. Proof of this can be witnessed by visiting many of the amateur sites offering videos. It seems pretty clear that the more realistic dirt tracks are preferred by the vast majority of RC enthusiasts. It would seem that only the pro and semi-pro drivers/racers tend to prefer the less realistic hypergroomed tracks.
I guess my opinion is that there is really no problem here. Most small venue tracks have what the racers want, as do the mega venue tracks. The pros can keep there on road tracks.... I'll stick with bumpy, loose, and fun :)

[aspiringrcracer710]

Originally posted by jeepinator
Good points from a highly respected RC professional.
I would like to add that your average RC person may not be so surgically logical in their desires. I would fall into that category.
Your point, that since none of it is scale or realistic, give up and just use what works, is depressing. I would like to keep it just a shade more realistic than using buggies (or worse, trucks) designed for harsh off-road conditions on tracks that are nothing more than on-road courses with a 3rd dimension.
The super stable tracks we see at major events are mostly (IMO) desired by racers who can compete at this level. For the lowly enthusiast, like myself, this is not the case. Winning races is FAR less of a concern to me than, say, Mark Pavidis (my hero, hehe).

What the big dogs of RC, like Rick here, seem to forget is WHY people get energized by RC. The draw, as far as I have witnessed, is not sterilized dirt tracks you see in RCCA. It is the tracks with character, the tracks that match the theme of off road. Proof of this can be witnessed by visiting many of the amateur sites offering videos. It seems pretty clear that the more realistic dirt tracks are preferred by the vast majority of RC enthusiasts. It would seem that only the pro and semi-pro drivers/racers tend to prefer the less realistic hypergroomed tracks.
I guess my opinion is that there is really no problem here. Most small venue tracks have what the racers want, as do the mega venue tracks. The pros can keep there on road tracks.... I'll stick with bumpy, loose, and fun :)

Here is my opinion of the state of "offroad":

The tracks that the "mega racers" (aka the factory hired guns who are always running in the A main at every RC event known to man) prefer, the reason that they do is because that is what they are used to setting up for. They havent had to set up for tracks with a ton of bumps and jumps, massive rooster tails, uphill and downhill elevation changes, 3-5 foot tall jumps with big dropoffs, and the like.

Offroad needs to return to the kinds of tracks where the RC10, Triumph, SRT, JRX, etc. were battling it out. There needs to be more doorbanging for positions.

When the race starts, there should be doorbanging all the way up and down the grid. Races where the polesitter goes and runs away with it are just plain boring.

There should be separate divisions for Factory racers and Indy racers (Independents, privateers call them what you want) The reason privateers go to so many of these races is because they believe that they have a chance to make it to the higher mains (especially the A) If they are getting blown away by factory boys who can get everything they want just by walking into their tent, they become discouraged, and maybe stop racing. Thats not the way it should be.

Also, I really think that the only way that tracks that host the nationals will ever create tracks that could constitute "real" offroad is if all of us go out and design those kinds of tracks and then send them to them (go to the ROAR website and look for the nationals schedule. odds are the layouts for the remaining 2002 events are locked in so this would apply to as soon as the 2003 schedule goes up), but people like us should be designing tracks and sending them to these host tracks and who knows, when RCCA comes and covers the race, they could have something like "on a beautiful track designed by (insert name and RCCA username here)..." But you never know until you try

Just my $.02

[jeepinator]

I am certainly not disagreeing with you here...

I am always for adding a touch of chaos to any system. The element of suprise and the hope for luck is fun for me. There is skill in navigating a less than perfect track. Why is this skill being ignored?

I once attended a large race that did the cool "snake race" at the end. This is where all the TQ's in each class all race together, backwards. Electric buggies, gas trucks, 4 wheelers, all of 'em. The track was extremely fun. Possibly the best layout and composition I have ever raced on. It was rough in places, had multiple lines, loose sandy dirt (TONS of traction though, mod trucks were pulling wheelies out of some turns), etc
This one guy, a racer who from what I hear is one of the world's top 1/8 4WD on road racers now, beat the stock buggy TQ *running BACKWARD* with no practice at all. The stock guys were no slouches either. The guy has so much skill that it actually depressed me sometimes. He was unbeatable. Anyone who can do this well, without all the primping and fussing over track conditions has FAR more skill than the Barbie Doll track driver.

[jeepinator]

BTW, I have this snake race on video. In it you can hear the announcer just about crap a brick when he sees this guy on a TQ pace. It was truly inspiring.

[TC3 Benjammin]

Originally posted by jeepinator
Good points from a highly respected RC professional.
I would like to add that your average RC person may not be so surgically logical in their desires. I would fall into that category.
Your point, that since none of it is scale or realistic, give up and just use what works, is depressing. I would like to keep it just a shade more realistic than using buggies (or worse, trucks) designed for harsh off-road conditions on tracks that are nothing more than on-road courses with a 3rd dimension.
The super stable tracks we see at major events are mostly (IMO) desired by racers who can compete at this level. For the lowly enthusiast, like myself, this is not the case. Winning races is FAR less of a concern to me than, say, Mark Pavidis (my hero, hehe).

What the big dogs of RC, like Rick here, seem to forget is WHY people get energized by RC. The draw, as far as I have witnessed, is not sterilized dirt tracks you see in RCCA. It is the tracks with character, the tracks that match the theme of off road. Proof of this can be witnessed by visiting many of the amateur sites offering videos. It seems pretty clear that the more realistic dirt tracks are preferred by the vast majority of RC enthusiasts. It would seem that only the pro and semi-pro drivers/racers tend to prefer the less realistic hypergroomed tracks.
I guess my opinion is that there is really no problem here. Most small venue tracks have what the racers want, as do the mega venue tracks. The pros can keep there on road tracks.... I'll stick with bumpy, loose, and fun :)

Truly one of the best posts I've seen in a long time. :)

[ProjectTwin]

I remember reading about Kinwald using diesel fuel for traction compound in a mag...this was on a "blue groove, off-road" track.

Traction compound and off-road do not belong in the same sentence. Not when the compound is actually being used on the off-road track.


Jason

[speedydave]

Yeah, that was on a track where he was using slicks. Slicks and offroad don't belong in the same sentence either.

[dcshoelover]

Offroad racing shouldn't be about turning perfectly in and out of turns, turning out the fastest lap times, and racing on rock hard dirt. It should be on what you would encounter in ur backyard, and getting to the finish 1st.

[R_C_hoodlum]

I don't think it really matters how hard the dirt is to be considered an off-road track, as long as it's dirt and there is jumps made out of dirt. But it is stupid if people make blue groove tracks so smooth that you could drive a touring car on it, they should have bumps and uneveness every where like the blue groove track I drinve at.

[Nutter]

I think jeep just hit the nail on the head with his posts - that's exactly how I feel about off-road.

I (and jeep, and others) probably feel a lot stronger at heart about this issue than most do these days as we were at the track back in the days of the JRx2, original RC10, etc.. we actually experienced those 'good old' track designs.
One of the things (RC at least) I remember from the very early 90's was racing my 4WD Yokomo on our local off-road track.. after the second corner it was so muddy from raining on the loose dirt surface that my car slowed down to a crawl at max throttle, meaning that you had to do your best to avoid 90% of that section of the track - the mud wasn't very deep at all, and was hardly even noticable from the drivers stand, but it was there, and thick enough to alter the driving line for that entire section of the track. Did we add saw dust to the mud to dry it up? No. Did we try to shovel the mud off of the track? No. Why didn't we? Because it added a challenge to the track, it was something different; it added unpredictability from race day to race day.
Whenever I build a track, I always make it like those tracks from the late 80's & early 90's were.. loose surfaces, big elevation changes, banked corners, big jumps, bumps, and all of the good stuff. I'd rather race on a BMX track than a blue-groove track anyday.


-Nutter

[Conman]

I for one would like to see less blue grove tracks and more of drivers having to slide their trucks and buggies side-ways through the turns like in real off-road racing. Roosting out of the corners big jumps, sudden elevation changes, and rough sections that through the car out of wack.

[aspiringrcracer710]

I for one agree wholeheartedly. Tracks just like they run in CORR (Antigo, Crandon, Edmeston, etc.) are the way that tracks should be setup. I began following RC back in the early 90s when the B2, the XX, and a few others went riproaring around offroad tracks, creating huge roostertails, powersliding all over the track, flying off huge jumps, racing over huge elevation changes (Freedom Hills Raceway is one of the tracks I am reminded of). Now THAT was offroad. Track designers should try to remember the good old days, or maybe we should just race touring cars on the current offroad tracks

[jeepinator]

It seems that us "average Joe's" don't have a need for the on-road wannabe dirt tracks. This thread pretty much proves it!
Why then do they exist?
To suit the pansy pros? :D

[audiR8]

This is my first post I thought this thread was a good one to start on. I was able to attend the ROAR Modified Off-Road Nationals this year. I had raced at this track a couple of times before and it had encompassed a good mix of jumps, tabletops, and elevation changes. However, when I got there for the nationals, the track consisted of one triple jump and one pitifully small double. The only other real obstacle was a slight hole before the triple. The surface was so hard packed that it looked like asphalt. With so many vehicles running on it, there was a groove of rubber laid down about 16 inches wide around the whole track. Everyone was on slicks and was using traction compound. There was so much traction that they were flipping over at the end of the main straight going into the first turn. After taking all of this in, I decided this really did not represent off-road racing. I figured a touring car with a raised ride height could have done pretty well on this. What happened to sliding around turns and having table tops and multiple jumps? I think its time to move away from these tracks and go back to the way they used to be. If a driver is really skilled, he should be able to adapt to and handle different sorts of tracks. If blue-groove tracks continue, they might as well race off-road on an asphalt surface with wooden skateboard jumps as the jumps. Sorry so long but my 2 cents

[jeepinator]

Helluva good first post.
Why on Earth did they dumb down the track so badly? That is pathetic.
Bring back Jammin' Jay! He'll show these pavement queens how to OFF ROAD :D

[jeepinator]

...and while your at it, gimme some step pins, octi grabs, and pyramid pins in the XT (Pro-Line) or "real rubber" (Losi) compounds!

Hey, the Pro-Line Plus Pins kicked ass!

[ProjectTwin]

In another 10 years we'll have outdoor off-road tracks that are carpeted.

either that or they'll be slapping VHT, sugarwater, Dr. Pepper, Coke, or something on the track. :rolleyes:

Jason

[Conman]

God forbid that that should ever happen.

[Nutter]

Originally posted by audiR8
I had raced at this track a couple of times before and it had encompassed a good mix of jumps, tabletops, and elevation changes. However, when I got there for the nationals, the track consisted of one triple jump and one pitifully small double.wow.. I'm in shock. Simply.. shocked. That actually brought a tear to my eye reading your post. :p How very, very, very sad indeed it has become. And to think that the nats are supposed to represent the pinacle of the hobby, the best of the best; track, driver, and car.

*wanders over to petitiononline...*


-Nutter

[aspiringrcracer710]

yeah, its pretty bad when the tracks they use for the NATIONALS of all things dont even look like real offroad tracks. I just mailed two designs for offroad tracks to KZ Speedway in Sun Valley (site of the 2003 1/10 Offroad Worlds), Im hoping they like em because those tracks are the way that offroad should be. I mean if you want offroad, imagine Laguna Seca, only covered with loosely packed dirt and a bunch of jumps. Now THATS offroad. BTW, just as a side note (I dont have a website or anything), but I design tracks as a hobby but as soon as I can get a new computer (mine blew up), and a workng scanner, I'll be able to show some of my designs. Who knows, some guy from a track may wander in here, see my stuff and my work might get noticed. But getting back on topic, I think that if those namby pamby professionals want something to race on, they can take their touring cars and race em on the offroad tracks because their buggis and trucks certainly shouldnt be there.

[Conman]

Except for the front straight there should hardly be a straight section of track without a jump or something. Besides wouldn't it be more chalenging to race on a track with more jumps, bumps, and a nice washboard section.

[aspiringrcracer710]

I like to add a little something called "slalom mounds"

[Rick Hohwart]

There are some very undertsandable reasons for the way the off road tracks are these days.

Commercial tracks like where the Nats were held are for the most part not big moneymakers. They are not even full time occupations for the owner. Many tracks can't afford to hire crews to work on tracks that have to be maintained. For those of you that want to bring it back to the old days, that is how it was done. Grroming every couple of heats or between rounds was the norm as was frequent watering. It takes alot of manpower to build and maintain a track. Where are the volunteers?

Back in the day many of the big Nationals tracks and most local tracks like in Tampa were run by clubs and relied on the racers themselves to run the races which included maintaining the track. People are just not as willing to volunteer their time like they used to when they can go and pay to race at a commerical track and be done with it.

Local conditions play a role. Red clay found in Florida and Georgia seems to naturally pack and dry under the hot sun. Unless you do something to prevent that you will end up with a hard, blue groove track. See above.

Sometimes it is easier for tracks to look for the solution that requires the least amount of people and money, and this is the upside of a hard packed track.

As far as pros racing on hard packed or soft packed tracks. it does not make a difference. The challenge is the same. In fact I raced since the early days and seen it all as far as tracks go and the most challenging tracks are blue groove tracks. Just my opinion keep in mind.

This is why i say off road is what it is. This is the way it is now whether it be because of driver preferences or the way the industry has turned (commercial, indoor tracks versus clubs).

And for every complaint someone has about the way things are now, there was a complaint about the way things are back then. The "good old days", like in life, just seem better.

[R_C_hoodlum]

I agree, it doesn't matter what the dirt is like. Off-road is a track made out of dirt with a whole lot of jumps and bumps hard packed or not so hard packed.

[Conman]

Still I think that a lot of us would like to see less mainly flat hardpacked/bluegroove tracks, and more loamy rough tracks with lots of jumps.

[HauntedMyst]

I picked up one of the other mags and was reading through it. I came across what I consider to be the single most candy @ssed thing I've ever seen in R/C, a picture of some pork chop blowing the dust off of an off road track! What is next? Lace doilies to set their transmitters on while they wait? Team logoed silk panties? RC ball boys who carry cars across the jumps so their bottoms don't scrape when they hit?

While "professional" racers may want consistency, isn't off road about inconsistency? Most of the times, you see the same names in the finishes of big races. I assume these guys are good enough drivers to drive around dust or to compensate for changing road conditions. Let's face it, in the A-Main, every one is racing on the same track, the conditions don't change so drastically that ruts pops up like obsticles on a Disney ride. Jeep said it best, blue groove tracks are nothing more then on road tracks with a 3 dimension.

[Peterbilt]

Man, 4 pages, now i finally have a thread that accomplished something. Sorry, just enjoying a happy moment...

Oh, and i totally agree with Haunted Myst

[audiR8]

I totally agree with Haunted Myst. In fact, I seem to remember the photo he is talking about. It was a guy with a gas powered leaf blower blowing the dust off of a track. At the time I was like 'that seems kind of strange to blow the dirt off'. It appears that real offroad racing will only to continue to exist in its real form at the club level. Since 95% of the people that have off road vehicles will never race at a national event, true offroad will live on at the club level (kind of like SCCA). It seems as if the "industry" is determined to move away from its roots and move in the direction of ultra groomed, blue groove tracks so it is always consistent and fast, and requires no adaption to changing conditions. Real off-road racing (CORR and Baja 1000) is about adapting to changing conditions. Sandwashes, burms, jumps, ruts, whatever the land throws at you. How interesting would it be if they raced the Baja 1000 on a paved freeway? Pretty boring huh? I say let the pros have their dirt asphalt and the rest of us will have our unprepared, real world tracks. Just my thoughts

[ProjectTwin]

Ever see a track that squeaked like a gym floor?

That happened while I was in Texas.

Jason

[HauntedMyst]

Originally posted by audiR8
It seems as if the "industry" is determined to move away from its roots and move in the direction of ultra groomed, blue groove tracks so it is always consistent and fast, and requires no adaption to changing conditions.


I hear some places in california are building little car washes that the trucks have to go through after each lap and 4 guys in white suits run out and clean the tires and spray them with traction compound as it exits.

[Poolboy51]

Originally posted by HauntedMyst
I picked up one of the other mags and was reading through it. I came across what I consider to be the single most candy @ssed thing I've ever seen in R/C, a picture of some pork chop blowing the dust off of an off road track!

I SAW THAT!:eek: I am 99% sure it was RCCA but I could be wrong. I WILL find that picture unless it was from one of my friends' old RCCA's

Ever see a track that squeaked like a gym floor?
We're they waxing it or sumthin?

[ProjectTwin]

poolboy, nope...

It was just that hard packed. The track was great until the Texas rain came...I think you could've drowned a frog that day.

The sun came out, guys ran on the track all weekend and no maintainence was done...it became packed and stayed that way.

There was a rock on the track. While walking the track looking for a broken part, I decided to kick this rock with the toe of my shoe...squeak!

Jason

[Conman]

Kick*squeak* What the he**

[aspiringrcracer710]

Anybody else got pics, hot lap video, or drawings of offroad trax? Do peterbilt a favor and post em up!

[aspiringrcracer710]

Guys, you should see the track they are using for the European Offroad champs. IT HAS NO JUMPS AT ALL!! Maybe we should just put rally bodies on TCs and call that offroad

European offroad championships (http://www.petitrc.com)

[AEAddict]

Originally posted by jeepinator
BTW, I have this snake race on video. In it you can hear the announcer just about crap a brick when he sees this guy on a TQ pace. It was truly inspiring.

Hey Jeep... could you send me the video over AIM or ICQ or something? I'd love to see that man.

lemmie' know. thanks..

(AIM) ---> NMTSpazzzzzzzz ( 9 z's)

(ICQ) ---> 12819883


thanks man!

-Matt

[Got Speed]

Next they will start putting traction additive down on the tracks.

I like both tracks but blue groove tracks are becoming smoother, more traction, and less jumps. I like the blue groove style as much as a real offroad but they are becoming too blue groovish for me(is that a word :confused: ).:confused:

[Exterminator]

At least the corner marshals at the European offroad champs have chairs to sit in.
That track is so flat not much chance of having to do anything.

I did notice 3 bumps in the track. but I've seen larger speed bumps in the parking lot at Mcdonalds.

It's a nice big track to bad they don't have the gut's to build a real offroad track.

Setting up the car or truck should be easy. just put some shocks with only 1/4" of travel and lower the car down. Slap on some foams or onroad tires and your set.

Just a Opinion
Tim W.

[xxxntracer]

Originally posted by aspiringrcracer710
Guys, you should see the track they are using for the European Offroad champs. IT HAS NO JUMPS AT ALL!! Maybe we should just put rally bodies on TCs and call that offroad

European offroad championships (http://www.petitrc.com)

Now thats my kind of off-raod track!!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[xxxntracer]

Holy crud!!!! Look at this track!!!!:eek: :eek:

[audiR8]

To even call that track offroad is a joke. It looks like they put about an inch of clay on top of an onroad track.

[jeepinator]

That's pathetic!

[jeepinator]

Originally posted by AEAddict
Hey Jeep... could you send me the video over AIM or ICQ or something? I'd love to see that man.Well, I don't have it in digital form. I don't have any way of getting it in digital form. In fact, I don't currently even have a way to play the tape as my 8mm camcorder bit the dust. One of my projects is to digitize all the video I have. I have hours of cool RC stuff. Some of it VERY cool.

[xxxntracer]

Here is a pic of my LHS's off-road track. As you can see there are lots of good sized jumps.:D

[adim_x]

I think everyone here has valid points, i their comments, I just finished building our track at our hobby store(with two friends help) We have a soft loose surface, its really not bad I like it a lot for my 1/8th scale buggy. But i wish it were almost a blue groove track, because all you people that want a loose loomy surface arent out there everyother day rebuilding jumps filling ruts and sweatin ur a$$ off fixing the track from two hours of practice. but i cant complain too much because we do have one thing i like, and that is jumps, this is the reason i spent a grand building a buggy

[jeepinator]

adim_x, I have been to Vincennes.
Nice town.
A buddy from the Navy and I drove there from Norfolk, Va in about 1990. There were millions of fireflies!

Sorry for being OT... just wanted to add that :)

[AEAddict]

Originally posted by jeepinator
Well, I don't have it in digital form. I don't have any way of getting it in digital form. In fact, I don't currently even have a way to play the tape as my 8mm camcorder bit the dust. One of my projects is to digitize all the video I have. I have hours of cool RC stuff. Some of it VERY cool.

No prob Jeep. If you DO get a converter or something... lemmie know.. I gotta see that man.

[ProjectTwin]

Here's off-road....
http://www.projecttwin.com/saxtongt.JPG

Saxton's truck prepped for racing at my local track...notice the front tires. :D Pins!

Jason

[Skribble]

Here is a pic of my LHS's off-road track. As you can see there are lots of good sized jumps. Well, what do you know, Racer's Haven! :D The triple is now in the center, and so far a XXX-NT running a OS TR motor is the only vehicle the clear it. (Eric, the guy with the pierce lip and tonuge) Who are you? :)

[Conman]

That one track is one that you could actually run a touring car on.

[ILiketheXXCR]

Does anyone know of a track in southern california that is as huge as the ora or field of dreams....man those look freakin fun! Everyone at my track (including kinwald himself) SoCal is running a nice little prepped track...in their pretty little XXX kinwald editions...bahhhhhh wheres the real stuff!

[speedydave]

The Dirt, in Hemit(sp?)...can't remember others, but they're there.

[ILiketheXXCR]

Hey where is The Dirt? What county in Southern California? Any help would be appreciated Peterbilt! THANKS!

[Peterbilt]

Can't help ya there, i'm about 1500 miles away in Louisiana!

[Nutter]

How's this for an off-road track? Half the track looks like a rollercoaster! Not too many jumps that I can see, but the elevation changes are sweet. :)

http://www.rlhobbies.com/jpeg/Newtrack.JPG


-Nutter

[Got Speed]

That looks like it would be pretty exciting to race on! Where is that?

[Nutter]

It's at R&L Hobbies in Michigan. http://www.rlhobbies.com


-Nutter

[aspiringrcracer710]

go to www.rcpimp.com (http://www.rcpimp.com) and check out the videos. Some of those tracks (especially Vicksburg) have some absolutely huge elevation changes

[mazrc10]

I remember when i first got into rc, about '90 or so, I was looking at pics of the stealth cars in detroit and australia, and they had nice loamy tracks. The front tires were spiked. Then in 93 in england, the track was all clay, and real hard packed.

I can understand if that a track is hard packed due to its geography and its just not possible to get a loamy surface, then thats cool. But if its possible to have a track were the dirt is nice and loamy, id love to race on that.

It would be really sweet to see the 03 worlds on a loamy track, with huge jumps and some nice elevation changes. just for something different. i bet everyone would have to bust out they're old step pins and ht losi fronts!

maz

[Got Speed]

Originally posted by ILiketheXXCR
Hey where is The Dirt? What county in Southern California? Any help would be appreciated Peterbilt! THANKS!

Hey Im going to so cal during labour day(for 3 days) to visit different tracks there. I looked up the dirt and it is just south east of los angelas.

Skribble(or anyone who lives in cal.)-Like I said Im going to so cal for 3 days. I am trying to find some of the best nitro tracks to go to. I am going to 5 different ones. So far I know I deffinatly want to go to The Dirt, Extreme RPM, and possibly Racers Haven. Are there any others you could suggest? Either "real offroad" or just plain cool tracks. thanks:)

aspiringrcracer710-That place is huge! I have never seen a track like that before with grass, sand and all.

Nutter-Ive never seen a track with so many elevation changes and tight turns. That has got to be a blast to drive on!

[aspiringrcracer710]

Im tellin ya, Got Speed, if all tracks were like some of the ones they have in Michigan.

It would be really sweet to see the 03 worlds on a loamy track, with huge jumps and some nice elevation changes. just for something different. i bet everyone would have to bust out they're old step pins and ht losi fronts!

Well, KZ speedway isnt loamy, but its got alot to offer. Im sending a few designs out to them today. Maybe one of em will actually be used.

[OmegaTrac]

Got Speed:You'll have a lot of fun out here at the tracks. The Dirt is in Hemet, Extreme RPM is in Grand Terrace, Pegasus Hobbies is in Montclair, LPRP is in Lake Perris. These are all pretty local.

[FLYBOY7]

one of the main reasons for hard pack is..... IFMAR starts... where time determines TQ...

throw out IFMAR/staggered starts completely, and get back to REAL racing.... and really, TQ means nothing (if you look at the true context of racing)... throw it out too.... give more mains, and less qualifiers.... Mc, RC, or Pastrana could care less if they "TQ" a supercross... all they care about is winning the main.... and that's the way REAL racing should be....

and for REAL racers... the rougher the track, the better... let the track "go away"... the best drivers will shine in the rough, while the whiners, posers, and weaker drivers will drop to the back of the pack....

[Got Speed]

Omega Track-I will probably go to all 4 you mentioned but is there another one I could or should fit in?

FLYBOY7-I completely agree. The first big race I watched was the cactus classic. The staggered starts were pretty boring to watch and I don't like the idea that TQs should get that much of a lead. They should get maybe the front of the grid but not 5 seconds. I think probably companys such as: Associated, Losi, Kysosho, GS, Ofna, ect don't want to take the chance that their factory drivers will get knocked out in the start of the race.:rolleyes:

aspiringrcracer710-That's cool. Tell us if they choose your design!:)

[Got Speed]

Originally posted by xxxntracer
Here is a pic of my LHS's off-road track. As you can see there are lots of good sized jumps.:D

Is that racer's haven?

Omega Track-Does Pegasus Hobbies have a website? If so do you have a link?

[aspiringrcracer710]

If you want a good start to use look again to the CORR series. At Crandon, WI, they use something thats called the "Oklahoma Land Rush" start. Basically, the entire field is layed out crosswise (just like motocross), and then they race full tilt for what is called a "funnel" basically the track goes from say 200 ft to around 20 ft wide. ROAR and IFMAR oughta try using that kind of start

[Got Speed]

Im sure that would be a very intresting start to watch and drive. Id like that better than a grid start too. Maybe they will if they get enough requests but I doubt it unless the requests are from someone "important".:p

[OmegaTrac]

Got Speed: The Pegasus Hobbies website is never updated. http://www.pegasushobbies.com. Heres their #: 909-982-6507


Where is Racer's Heaven? Do they have a website?

[Got Speed]

ok. Is pegasus very good? I don't see pics of it on there web site. Do you have pics?

Racers Haven- http://www.racers-haven.com/main.html It's in bakersfield

[ILiketheXXCR]

whoa The Dirt in Hemit looks really cool, I might have to make a road trip and head down there!

[RallyRoach]

Here's some pictures of the off-road track we have here in Nova Scotia. Small, but its some good eh!

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/john.egan/0502TrackWork.htm

[SkipGear]

Here comes a long one, I have been monitoring the TT thread on a similar subject. Here are the views of somebody that has been racing longer that he would like to admit (Since before the RC10).

The pic of R&L is my opinion of what a "race" track should look like. I'm not a big fan of blue groove tracks but hard packed and blue groove are too different things. The track shown is firm enough that it shouldn't rut too bad but loose enough that you are relying on the tread to bite the surface, not just friction from the rubber compound. A firm track is good....; dry, dusty, gravely tracks suck to race on. If I had to chose between dry and dusty, and blue groove, I would pick a groove. As I said, I prefer a some loam though, a happy medium is the best option though.

Like Rick said earlier, a lot of what determines your track surface is the dirt you have to work with. Down south, they have no real choice, if the tracks didn't groove, you would be racing on sand and that is not real fun. In Ohio, where I race, tracks groove after a couple of heats whether you want them to or not.

I run the races at Dirt Country RC Raceway (http://www.DCRCR.com). We have tried to keep a groove from forming by draging the track each week before racing. By the time the mains come around, the groove is back, although traction is still very good, there is still a difference between being in the groove and out of the groove. You just can't get away from a grooved track unless it is so sandy and loose that it won't hold it's shape at all.

The worst track I have ever run at was SEMMROC in Detroit about 10 years ago. The once smooth straight was a mogul section by the end of the first round. They did very little is any maintainance and you never knew what your car was going to do. Some of you may think that is fun but racing is more about racing the other drivers than racing the track. If it was about racing the track, we would run single car timed trials.

A track that changes through the day is OK. A track that changes through a single heat is a bit too much to deal with. For those of you advocating all these obsticle course tracks, have you actually raced on one, not driven or practiced, but raced? Most guys that are advocating this type of track can't actually race on it. When we built our track 4 years ago, it was a super cross track, 18 jumps, 2 high banked 180 berm turns, elevation changes, 36 second laps, just the kind of track you guys want. Guess what, all the guys that asked for that kind of track couldn't get around it without breaking their cars. We have tamed it down considerably in the interest of close racing and seeing more racers actually finish. It was turning away the guys that could not deal with the big obsticles. They just got more frustrated that the "fast guys" could clear this jump or that and they couldn't so they quit. The beginners were totaly lost on the track. In order to get more people interested, we simplified the track so that it was easier for the new racer. Everybody is happy now and racing is determined by tenth's instead of ten's of seconds.

Through the winter we race at CRCRC (http://www.CRCRC.com) in Columbus. It is considered a grooved track but it doesn't really blue groove. It would be nice to sling a little dirt but by the same token, it is nice to be able to have a consistant enough track that you can monitor your lap times. You can truely see if you are improving and know it is just not the track changing or going away that is affecting your driving.

Keep in mind, it is hard to design a track that can hold up to abuse of an 1/8 scale while still being user friendly to the novice guys running a stock Rustler. I'm all for a happy medium. There should be NO Slicks in offroad, but then again, I don't expect to have to climb boulders or wallow through mud and sand traps either.

[aspiringrcracer710]

Originally posted by SkipGear
Here comes a long one, I have been monitoring the TT thread on a similar subject. Here are the views of somebody that has been racing longer that he would like to admit (Since before the RC10).

The pic of R&L is my opinion of what a "race" track should look like. I'm not a big fan of blue groove tracks but hard packed and blue groove are too different things. The track shown is firm enough that it shouldn't rut too bad but loose enough that you are relying on the tread to bite the surface, not just friction from the rubber compound. A firm track is good....; dry, dusty, gravely tracks suck to race on. If I had to chose between dry and dusty, and blue groove, I would pick a groove. As I said, I prefer a some loam though, a happy medium is the best option though.

Like Rick said earlier, a lot of what determines your track surface is the dirt you have to work with. Down south, they have no real choice, if the tracks didn't groove, you would be racing on sand and that is not real fun. In Ohio, where I race, tracks groove after a couple of heats whether you want them to or not.

I run the races at Dirt Country RC Raceway (http://www.DCRCR.com). We have tried to keep a groove from forming by draging the track each week before racing. By the time the mains come around, the groove is back, although traction is still very good, there is still a difference between being in the groove and out of the groove. You just can't get away from a grooved track unless it is so sandy and loose that it won't hold it's shape at all.

The worst track I have ever run at was SEMMROC in Detroit about 10 years ago. The once smooth straight was a mogul section by the end of the first round. They did very little is any maintainance and you never knew what your car was going to do. Some of you may think that is fun but racing is more about racing the other drivers than racing the track. If it was about racing the track, we would run single car timed trials.

A track that changes through the day is OK. A track that changes through a single heat is a bit too much to deal with. For those of you advocating all these obsticle course tracks, have you actually raced on one, not driven or practiced, but raced? Most guys that are advocating this type of track can't actually race on it. When we built our track 4 years ago, it was a super cross track, 18 jumps, 2 high banked 180 berm turns, elevation changes, 36 second laps, just the kind of track you guys want. Guess what, all the guys that asked for that kind of track couldn't get around it without breaking their cars. We have tamed it down considerably in the interest of close racing and seeing more racers actually finish. It was turning away the guys that could not deal with the big obsticles. They just got more frustrated that the "fast guys" could clear this jump or that and they couldn't so they quit. The beginners were totaly lost on the track. In order to get more people interested, we simplified the track so that it was easier for the new racer. Everybody is happy now and racing is determined by tenth's instead of ten's of seconds.

Through the winter we race at CRCRC (http://www.CRCRC.com) in Columbus. It is considered a grooved track but it doesn't really blue groove. It would be nice to sling a little dirt but by the same token, it is nice to be able to have a consistant enough track that you can monitor your lap times. You can truely see if you are improving and know it is just not the track changing or going away that is affecting your driving.

Keep in mind, it is hard to design a track that can hold up to abuse of an 1/8 scale while still being user friendly to the novice guys running a stock Rustler. I'm all for a happy medium. There should be NO Slicks in offroad, but then again, I don't expect to have to climb boulders or wallow through mud and sand traps either.

I agree totally. If tracks are essentially mud without the water, then they are almost impossible to drive. Havign the dirt packed enought to give traction, but just enough loam to allow for roostertails Now about the obstacle thing, What Im NOT calling for is a track where there is no flatbottom for building speed. What I am calling for is that offroad tracks not be all flat (essentially making them onroad tracks covered in dirt) THere should be tracks with more than one double, or one triple, or a couple of singles, etc. We need to come to a sort of balance between no obstacles at all and an obstacle every three feet.

Just my $.02

[SkipGear]

Wow, it looks like I single handedly killed the thread. No responses?

[aspiringrcracer710]

SkipGear- You didnt kill the thread, people just need to think about which side of this fence they are on. Some people wanna sacrifice speed for bump and jump action, some want to sacrifice bump and jump action for speed. What I wanna know is what do people think about coming to some sort of point of balance that is satisfying for offroad purists and people that crave speed. I think that having a larger track can allow for alot of obstacles, doorbanging action and speed, or instead of using the F1 (or heads up) type of start, or the IFMAR type of start, which is actually kind of boring, but using something like the "land rush" or a motocross type of start would be a step in the right direction. Then, tracks (especially sites of national events), should take suggestions from local hobbyists as to what the track should look like.


Just my $.02

[aspiringrcracer710]

Any other opinions?

[Nutter]

Well reading through a certain RC mag from this month starting with X, I come across some off-road race coverage, woohoo I think! Then I look at the pictures.. and see the reflection of the cars in the track!!! That is just so damn wrong. And slicks? ..yep, of course they were using them.

I was so disgusted that I skipped the whole article.


-Nutter

[surfer]

off road racing should have muddy cornes or sandy straights so you cant go straight etcedra

[aspiringrcracer710]

If you could convert one CORR racecourse to RC scale, what would it be and why?

[k_sw31]

With the roar mod 'off road' track for the nats, well, it looks like you could take a touring car on that track, hey.... that might be sorta fun.... Hmmm, maybe a micro with a bb :D

[DCLXVI]

They sould make the on-road tracks like the off-roads are today and make more "off-roady" off-road tracks...

/DCLXVI

[aspiringrcracer710]

I saw a Team Orion article and Dave Montgomery's (The 2002 ROAR Mod Truck national champion) and his truck had SLICKS! That is how far RC offroad has gone.

[LEADFOOT]

how can you tell those are slicks?

http://www.team-orion.ch/news/images/offroad-mod-nats2002.jpg

[aspiringrcracer710]

Open up your December RCCA and there is a article which shows his truck. You'll see what I mean

[Sorchy10GT]

pesanaly I like a track that is packed but wet not dry I dont like to much loose sthuff it makes the track to slow but blue-grove is too hard somewere in the middle is pefect because it not loose and not soo hard and I think that a wet track provides good grip.

[trakhak]

I raced off-road back in the 80's and early 90's and it was'nt that great, yes you had gobs of traction because they watered the track between rounds. But, do you know how hard it was to run 4 minutes with a mild mod motor on 1200mah packs and your car picked up about a pound of clay by the end of the race!
Now the other side is,the tracks today are too the extreme! If they run them so smooth and hard, how are the tire manufactures going to stay alive? I mean you could come out with stickier slicks all the time but really how many slicks would the club racer need? There has to be a happy meduim between the two styles.
Yes, I do miss the loamy tracks but with the introduction of Nitro trucks and buggys you almost have to run a packed track, or by the second round of heats you have a mogul field! I know this from experience because a local club runs a large 1/8 class,T maxx, and 1/10 nitro class. needless to say electric classes are gone because they run a loamy track and electrics just bounce around,if it wasnt for the boards they wouldnt stay on the track.
Now the other local track runs a blue groove track, but again they are lacking racers because they are on the hardcore side and beginners are intimidated by the speed and slickness of the track outside of the groove, and the elitess mentality of the club does not help either. Racing to me has changed, it used to be a good funtime and just hangout and chill, now it has turned into this serious, no time for fun and games stuff. It all has its place but it is getting hard to find that fun track that everyone has a smile on thier face, instead of that race face. Peace



Edit: you make a good point about the "elitist" nature of offroad clubs today.

[aspiringrcracer710]

In my humble opinion, offroad is turning into onroad on dirt. I mean guys are shaving the pins off of their tires because of how hard packed the track is. FWIW (For What Its Worth), if you want to know how to create an offroad track, check out the CORR racing series. Now they pack it enough so that it isnt a minefield, but they keep it loose enough so that these guys can kick the dirt up all over the place. Not to mention, since when should offroad vehicles have to use TRACTION COMPOUND!! I can understand when onroad vehicles (pancars specifically) had to put the stuff on their tires becase of the dust and debris that tends to accumulate, especially on the racing line, but OFFROAD SHOULDNT HAVE A "PREFERRED" RACING LINE!!! In short, packing it down so the dirt doesnt destroy the car is ok, just dont go packin it like your makin a new parking lot or something


Just my $.02

[trakhak]

I was thinking of this while stuck in traffic while the workers performed "IMPROVEMENTS"!!
Why use dirt, use asphalt instead, put in some small rolling "jumps" and then just put a coat of red clay colored textured paint!!! That way the cars would never get dirty, and tons of traction from the texture medium! Then the tire companies could develop a new spray additive to make the tires last longer! Then we could airbrush dirt "stains" on the bodies and the 4WD class would be huge with all the TC3s out there!!!
LOL!!!

[surfer]

thats actually a good idea

[Got Speed]

It would be alot of fun to race on a "true" offroad track. Where in one section of the track on about half of the lane there is a big sandpit, or drop off about 1 ft for 10ft in length where it is all slippery from mud, a section with a major minefield, slamon(sp) mounds, ect but you have to remeber that most RC couldn't do that. Those thing would pretty much be reserved for the MTs and 1/8th scales. Maybe the 1/10 gas trucks. What would be really nice is if a track had both, one night they race offroad, the next they run "real" offroad.

Personally I like the hard packed, damp, not perfectly smooth surface with large jumps to run my XXXN-T on. As for the T-maxx and 1/8th buggys those are alot of fun in the rough stuff. If a track has only one kind of offroad track it's better that it be a hard packed, damp, track so that all classes of offroad can run on it.

Here is a pic of part of my track, sorry it's not very good.

[aspiringrcracer710]

ttt

[mardigan]

All I know is I like our indoor track and if it was left dusty you wouldn't be able to breath after a heavy run of dirt slingin not to mention nitro and dust.