2wd onroad vs. 4wd onroad

[1/12 scaler]

why are all touring cars now 4wd??? So what if 4wds handle better? I would think that it takes more skill to control a 2wd more than a 4wd. From what i know most sports cars are 2wd. An acception is the audi tt and a few others(but idk which). 2wd cars are lighter because they have less rotating mass which = faster! 2wd also makes them more to scale.

I just want to find out the opinions of other rc'ers on which what type cars are better.

(by the way im going to make my tl-01 into a 2wd when i center my servo)

[FrankW]

On unprepared, low traction surfaces, 4WD cars will dominate because of their better handling characteristices. But you put both cars onto a smooth high traction surface, the 2WD car will chew up a 4WD and spit it out. I'm a 2WD pan car fan myself (mostly 12th scale).

-Frank

[ILiketheXXCR]

make it a Fwd!

[Burnout]

4wd is better, and plus its much more scale. No wonder you rarely see pan cars anymore.

[FrankW]

Burnout: I will take on any 4WD sedan on with one of my 12th scale 2WD cars, with equal set-ups, and we can see which is better. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, are you?

-Frank

[TEM]

"4wd is better, and plus its much more scale. No wonder you rarely see pan cars anymore."

4 wheel drive ONLY means you accelerate faster in slippery conditions. Ever notice people putting one-ways in their cars! NO, 4WD is not more scale! Or maybe you should describe what you mean by scale. I mean how many real TC's are 4WD? My background is in scale auto and RC for the most part is definately not "to scale"! Take your 4WD tc to a hobby shop and ask them how many "scale points" you would get at a scale competition!

The only reason why 4wd is so popular is because of the large amount of bashers(not people who race and bash, but just people who start out running their cars bashing!) got attracted to 4WD TC's cause pan cars(real race cars!) didn't appeal to them. Then more people get attracted to the crowd. Also, pan cars are too fast for them to handle! How many of us can really handle a 6 cell mod pan car? 4WD TC are suppose to be the easiest to drive! I think TL01's are the most sold 4wd anywhere; is that suppose to be the best car out there?

Frank, racing your 12th scale with a TC is not fair, you are a different scale and will kill them. BUT, how about racing my pantoura with a TC body and 4 cells against a 6 cell 4wd TC, would that be more fair? LOL!

[-=ADA$=-]

sorry wrong thread

[InspGadgt]

4wd can not only accelerate faster in slippery conditions but it can also decelerate or brake faster (granted no front one-way) and also hold more cornering speed in slippery conditions. But on ideal race conditions a 2wd pan car will just eat it up.

Another reason for the popularity of the 4wd vs 2wd is the rules under ROAR and NORRCA are written to favor 4wd more. Now 2wd I'm not talking pan cars here, I'm talking about a class for class comparison so that mainly includes the FWD TCs.

[Burnout]

4wd is just better, people see that, they love it, they embrace it, and they dump the pancars and go with 4wd better (and plus the coolness factor =P). And for some people, they see this 4wd craze and they don't like it, and it ignores the pancar scene thus taking more away from them. Oh yeah and you are probably a better driver than me "FrankW", how the heck does that have to do with pancars being better if you can beat me or other people? O_o. And since when did something that goes slightly faster but more harder to drive is better? 4wd isn't just better and easier to drive, it costs the same, wide selection of kits, plus with the aftermarket support and the huge userbase you can't go wrong, now YOU guys tell me if your pancars are better than 4wd. That is why your pancars aren't popular anymore.

To sum it up what the pancar guys are saying "2wd is better because it is harder to control and its faster than 4wd". Oh wow, those 2 features alone sure does make 2wd better. But wait, howcome pancars are dead? Howcome only a few people support them? Howcome noone is buying them anymore? Where is the support for pancars?! Why why why? Plain and simple, 4wd killed them. Hehe.

[Grant Tokumi]

Ouch.

It does seem to me like 4WD has the upperhand, or is at least more popular. One thing that made this even more obvious to me is the introduction of the Tamiya Formula 1 car. It sure looks like Tamiya's goal was to make it look like its full-scale version, but they went ahead and made it 4WD. My guess is they did this to give it the good control characteristics of 4WD.

Speed is nothing without control.

[newracer]

at my local track, pancars are making a come back. I have heard that this is also happening at other tracks. I am starting to lean towards only running pan cars due to their simplicity, speed, and run times.

[1/12 scaler]

but i thought roar ranted to keep these cars down to scale??? I read in rc car (not rcca) that at one time the cars needed full interiors. So if they want to keep the scale...why don't the go to 2wd racing????

[TEM]

Ok burnout, so I guess your only reasoning that 4wd is better is because they are easier to drive? Pan cars are not slightly faster, they are much much faster! A 4 cell pan car is FASTER than a 6 cell 4WD! And a 6 cell stock pan car is faster than a 6 cell MOD 4WD!,, I bet you never driven a pan car before! Most of us don't drive 6 cell mod pan cars cause they are too fast! PPan cars are not hard to drive, it's just that 4wd is easy! Aftermarket support?, you need mods because the car needs upgrading?, most pan cars are competitive out of the box and needs no upgrading! Pan cars are cheaper too. Less parts, less tuning. And they are much more durable! You're just a basher I assume? Maybe you are going to be better off with an offroad truck(or do you want to start aruging whether offroad is better than on road? or nitro vs. electric?). Can you explain why people run pan cars for oval and not 4wd TC's?

"But on ideal race conditions a 2wd pan car will just eat it up. "

There you go!

Notice people who understand the advantages of pan cars are REAL RACERS!

[david93073]

For people who been in the hobby long enough they will remember the reason for the start of touring cars. TC were originally for screwing around on unprepared parking lots( a relaxing alternative to high pressure pan car racing) also they were more scale than pan cars. If u were to take an RC 12 and scale it up it would be like 12 ft wide(not to many lemans type race cars are 12 ft wide) Where as an TC (190 mm) is more scale like to an actuall car. But racers being racers saw the potential in the class and the manufactures wanting to sell cars started making more sophisicated(sp) TC chassis. So the reason for 4WD was to make a car designed for parking lots( dusty and bumpy, a pan cars nightmare) easier to drive.

[Grant Tokumi]

I also noticed a comeback in pan cars. I don't frequent the onroad track so I don't get the impression from there, but mainly from this bulletin board and threads like this.

Interesting history david. I remember when TCs started coming around. I didn't take part in it, but grabbed some info here and there about them. An observation that stuck in my head was the "failure" of the Associated TC. Their modified RC10 with short arms and axles. I heard it sucked because it was only 2WD and couldn't handle like its 4WD competitors. I don't see much of that car anymore. Victim of Darwin. :)

I thought pan cars in general also fell victim to Darwin. But it does seem to be coming back doesn't it? The cheap speed in a small package might be the incentive.

[InspGadgt]

Well even TC's are not true to scale...but are closer in terms of width and lenght. The wheels are hugely out of scale though. The biggest factors I saw for the popularity was their ease of driving on less than ideal surfaces and the BODIES. Notice the trend in real racing vs the trend in RC. When pan cars were still popular there was little or no real TC racing going on. But what was big at the time was GTP/LeMans cars. Then the rules body steps in and cuts the GTP class and turns it into WSC. Race fans of the time did not like this and popularity for the class diminished greatly. In steps TC racing (Full Scale). Now these are like cars you see everyday driving on the street (in appearance). So the everyday person indentifies with the cars more and the real class starts to catch on in popularity. Tamiya ressurects some of it's old 4wd chassis that had normal car bodies on it that never caught on and slapped on a racing TC body and the TC craze starts. Other manufacturers jump on the bandwagon using the same dimensions and now we have a TC class. Back to full sized racing. Well manufacturers still want a class where they can race prototypes and develop new concepts but the GTP class is now dead in everything except the 24hrs of LeMans and Sebring races. So enters the GT1 class. New racers brought in by the draw of TC racing catch on to how cool the GT1 cars are and begin to become enthused with them. This starts to translate over to RC. Since all the sanctioning bodies had outlawed anything but a TC body on a TC chassis the closest thing to a GT1 is the GTP style pan cars. So now pan cars are starting to make a limited comeback somewhat aided by manufacterers converting their GTP bodies into GT1 bodies (Neither of which has looked even remotely close to the full sized ones since the release of the P-35. Prior to that the were much more true to scale).

Both classes are good for the hobby. Much better than having one or the other. Though I must admit my heart is in pan car racing. On a good surface they are faster and out handle a 4wd with ease. But on a bad surface they can be your worst night mare. Now the problem of a comeback for pan cars is 2 fold in my eyes. 1) The racer's dedication to track preparation. And 2) The industry as a whole needs to move to more scale looking bodies in the pan car class. The first part can only be done at a local level by YOU the racer dedicated to helping this hobby grow and expand. The second part will need 2 things to happen. First the sanctioning bodies will need to Outlaw the old GTP style bodies and establish new rules for bodies not only for performance but with a higher level of scale realism as well. And secondly manufacturers will have to start making GT1 style bodies for pan cars (A few have) but not just make them...make them look better, more scale! Tamiya did some great ones with their Toyota GT1 and LeMans Audi body. Unfortunately they only fit the wheel diameter for the F1 style wheel. But Pro-line started down this way of thinking with a very nice looking Porsche 911 GT1 body for the RC10L3.

As far as burnout's statement that 4wd TC and 2wd pan cars cost the same....

Tower Hobbies pricing:
RC12L2 pan car $154.99 full graphite...no hopups needed
RC10L3 touring pan car $179 full graphite...no hopups needed
RC10TC3 Factory Team $289.99

I use the Factory Team version as a comparason because as far as hopups go that's as close to how hopped up the 2 pan cars I listed allready come.

Not to mention that TC's are much bigger power hogs and need better and better batteries all the time to stay competitive. Pan cars can stay competitive over a much broader range of batteries. Also being lighter they put a good deal less wear and tear on the motors so they need replacing less often.

[WheelNut]

In most full size car racing series 4wd has been outlawed since it has such an advantage (or so road&track tells me).

4wd in RC is much easier to drive, ever driven a 2wd TC :eek: It's totally brutal! Also about 2wd being more realistic, pan cars arent realistic at all and there the ones that are 2wd, but TC are quite realistic and there 4wd. Though of course there are quite a few 4wd full size cars out there to....

2wd is easier to steer than 4wd, but the car can swap ends in a corner much easier than a 4wd.

[1/12 scaler]

This is besides the point of 2wd and 4wd...but is the RC10L3 a gtp car??? it seems that everyone is using either the L2 or 10L. Is this because it is a pantura car??? can it be used with gtp bodies and be run in a gtp class???

Lastly I don't have a pro 10(1/10 gtp) car....yet....but what should i do to help revive 1/10 pan racing???? One of my ideas is to make up a flier and send it to my local race track (s&n's trackside hobbies) and ask if they could put it up on their web site...telling why more and more race tracks around the world should support 1/10 pan car racing. And then i will have everyone who is interested email s&n's to consider it a class.


Anymore ideas????

[TEM]

Thanks for the insight InspGadgt!

The 10L3, Pantoura, CCT are Pan touring cars. That means they have the same width(190mm) and wheelbase as a TC and can run TC bodies. GT1 bodies are EXCELLENT for these cars in terms of both handling and look. Meanwhile RC10L2, L, Corally Pro10, the Yokomo, are wide gtp/lemans.

As for reviving or starting another class. You'll have to talk to your local track owner/racers to see if anyone are willing to participate. Sometimes we may not see pan cars at a track, but the fact is, there are many many racers that probably already have one at home that they normallly don't bring out! 3-5 people running can easily add another class on club race night. If it turns out good, people get attracted and buy cars. Then if you are able to collect enough support to run a few heats, then the class can be added to major races if held at that track. People come for the big race, gets interest, and spreads... Ofcourse thats what we hope for, but doesn't happen much unless RC sanctioning bodies and manufactures give things a kick like InspGadgt suggests.

Anyhow if there is ever a racers meeting, you can ask the folks if there are people wanting to run or if they are willing to let you run a 4 cell pan TC with the regular 4wd people. They would probably let you if you're a good driver! At the Honda House MotorSpeedway(Canada) they all race together! But the bottome line is not how much the cars cost or how good they handle; I think RC just follows some trend that if enough people do it, then everyone else will do it too.

[Burnout]

Hey, I been around before tc ever existed. I was racing with 12l's and 10l's and Bolinks. I am not even knocking on pancars, I had them, I love them, and I have nothing bad to say about them. Now here's the difference between you guys, you are knocking on 4wd, you don't give them credit to what they have done, they also brought more people into the hobby, they offer kits for the budget and all out racers (anyone can get into it with ease), more people participate in races and events, and look at all people purchasing kits and parts and supporting the industry. Those are the other great things tourers has brought to the hobby. Sorry but like it or not, tourers beat the heck out of your pancars. What it has done is all positive, and for you guys to even knock on them is just being disrespectful to the greatness it has done to the industry and to the people that enjoy them. If tourers never existed, no way pancars can make a huge impact as 4wd's do. Because the majority prefers tourers over pancars.

[FrankW]

Acually, at the track I used to race at (until it closed down due to some jerk who bounced a $2000 cheque and skipped town), everyone wanted to race pan cars (I was racing 12th scale with a couple other people), but the majority raced touring cars only because they knew they didn't have the driving experiance to survive in the pan car class. Pan cars are for the racers. Pan cars are a race bred machine. Touring cars are in their basic form bashing cars. I started out racing touring cars only because that was the only class offered... I would've much prefered racing pan cars.

To me, touring cars are slow, sloppy and require too many parts. A 4WD touring car will never match the performace potential a pan car can put out, there's absolutly no comparison. A pan car will out accelerate, out manuver and out run a touring car with a similar set-up. On 4 cells my 12th scale car will post better lap times than a 6 cell touring car. In one race evening, a very fast touring car racer (visiting from another track) boasted having the fasted lap-time of the evening, I had to correct him and politely told him that I had already posted a better lap time.

The fact is, niether is better... but performance-wise, on a prepared track, 2WD will dominate, no contest.

-Frank

[Keyz28]

On a slick surface the 4wd has a push which to MOST people is easier to drive. I think if you take an rc10ds with the same accs as a tc3 and put em out there on a good track the ds will amaze you. I have never ran a pan car but I don't have a doubt, my yoke can't touch one.

[InspGadgt]

First off I'm not knocking TCs...I very clearly pointed out that both are good for the hobby. Secondly by what definition of better do you define a car by? We can go several routes with this one...better on a track, better on a street, Had the most impact on the hobby...there's so many different definitions. Clearly TC's have been good for the hobby in many ways. And so have pan cars. But often due to the popularity of TCs people are often steered toward them when maybe something else would suite their desires better. As far as scale looks are concerned to me TCs are almost as bad as pan cars and getting worse. Manufacturers are starting to make the same mistake with TCs as they did for pan cars and building bodies purely for performance taking away the scale aspect of the hobby. But no chassis built to race specifications pan car or TC can ever be true to scale. Real cars have huge differences in height, wheel base, and wheel track. Making a MR2 body conform to the same wheel base as a Monte Carlo body is just ridiculously out of scale. But yet they both look quite good. My point being is it's not the limitations of the chassis that is screwing up the scale looks...it's the manufacturers, race organizations, and racers...Once a class really takes off it becomes more and more performance oriented and less and less scale looking. I too raced in the early 12L, 10L, and Bolink Eliminator 10 days. I remember bodies like the Andy's Porsche 982 short tail and the Proline Bud Lite Jaguar GTP. Those were beautifully scale bodies for pan cars. So it's still possible for a pan car to be very nicely scaled with a GT1 style body. Problem for me is TCs are getting extremely expensive to race and due to improvements in technology pan cars have less expensive. And with the American LeMans series growing in popularity and GT1 I feel now is the perfect time for pan cars to make a comeback if it's structured in a way that will appeal to the racers on more than just a performance level.

BOTH are great cars for what they do! The problem as I see it is this hobby has a tendency to focus in on one style of racing at a time and totally neglect the others. And worse yet neglect the reasons why one class fades and another blazes. Eventually that one too will fade in favor of another...and you know what...it will be for many of the same reasons as why it's predecessors failed. The general trend I've seen over the years is something comes out, it looks cool, follows body style of the current trend in real racing, starts out inexpensive so it becomes popular. Now people start to race them so they look for ways to improve upon the design, hopups blitz the market. Battery and motor technology race to catch up to the new car designs, racing becomes very expensive and elite so people start to lose interest. Along comes a new idea and it starts all over again. This will happen with TC as surely as it did to pan cars and we'll all be back here again arguing the same thing over a new class of car.