When Will the Price of Brushless Fall?

[gizmoguy303]

After this Christmas season, I will most likely be in the market for a racing-oriented brushless motor and ESC that has the power of a mod but can be programmed to run simliar to a stock.

Let's see, sounds like a Novak SS, right?


However, I have a feeling that Novak's rather large chunk of the brushless market is about to the threatened by other companies offering similiar systems. Example: Orion.

When competition arises, prices should go down, correct? I am also hoping that even by the sole appearance of Novak's new, more powerful system, the prices of the Novak Super Sport will decrease. Hey, I said I was hoping.


So when do you think more and more companies like Orion will be offering competitive systems, and if so, do you think it will play out as I stated above? Right now, $235 is too much to pay for an improvement (a big one, however) on something I already have.

[JohnSheridan]

To pay $235 on a system to last you a good season or two with very minimal maintenance and small depravation on peformance is a dream come true for any serious wannabie champion racer.

Think about it. You spend $235 on it then you fix it on your car and leave it in there never to be bothered by it ever again unless you need to inspect it. You save yourselves packets on motors brushes, motor springs, motors skims, motor armatures (should the can still be any good) or in some cases motor can re-zapping and then theres the time factors on skimming the motor, stripping and re-building them, re-soldering brushes, With all that time saved you can concentrate on the all important issues. and thats enjoying your racing rather than pissing about with your motors!!

[BJMFH1.01]

When more people buy BL systems, prices will fall accordingly. Either that or the complete opposite, BL systems do not sell at all and companies sell them at a loss in order to get rid of their inventory. Competition between rival companies should also help to decrease the costs.

[gizmoguy303]

I guess my last sentence shouldn't have been included. I realize the tremendous advantages that brushless has over brushed motors, and I also realize that they are actually cheaper in the long run than a cheap brushed motor - I suppose my real question is: Will brushless prices fall soon, and if so, when?

[k_sw31]

For now, Novak owns about 90-95% of the market. I hate to say this, but, you will only see a dramatic price difference once another company comes out with a system, like orion. Novak has no competition right now...why should they drop the prices?

Take not, the SS5800 motor is only 80$. About 20$ more than a reedy, a D5, etc.

The controller is 170$.

This is a little more than a modified system of similar performance. Now you need to take in the life span of a brushed mod...after about 20-30 runs the novak has paid for itself already.

[TC3-MikeB]

to say that novak has 90-95% of the market is only partially true. they only have that percentage of the popular market. what you dont hear about is the electric cars going 60mph with Lehner, Hacker and Schulze systems in them. the guys that are really into brushless technology use those companies and have been using them far longer than novak's system has even been out. yes the price of those systems is still high, but for the level of performance id say its worth it. the novak and orion systems may drop in price but ive yet to see a car with either of those systems push a 16 cell rc car to 60+ mph. as far as racing goes i think itll be a while till there are sanctioned races for brushless motors but it will happen. i do like the ability of the novak controller to go into the "stock" mode, no others have that. prices will fall but unfortunately not for a while, imho. --Mike

[k_sw31]

I disagree. If you really look at it, I really think 9 out of every 10 bl owners have a novak. These systems are commonly available in hobby shops, and recommend by many people. On the other hand, people who buy hacker, lehner, and schulze are usually people who want to go really fast. This makes up a pretty small portion of the hobby.

But thats just my opinion.

Remember, 50% of all statistics are made up!

[professor_griff]

people who buy hacker, lehner, and schulze are usually people who want to go really fast. This makes up a pretty small portion of the hobby.

I've yet to see one brushless owner say they bought their system because they want to go really slow. (sarcasm sorry)

(seriously now)
I own both Hacker and Novak BL systems, have some friends that run Lehner/Schulze setups, so I'm familiar with those. I do not believe that Novak has "owned" the market yet. They have the mass marketing ads that the others don't, but when your looking to drop 200-500 on a setup you do your research, and ask questions, post in forums, and I've yet to see anyone that thats into BL systems that has tried or seen other comparable systems recommend a Novak system over the others. I see more people running Hacker and Lehner systems imop the two most popular brands. My Novak 5800 setup is good and does exactly what I want it to do "Cheap BL Bashing in the street with my xxx-s". Brushless setups are still fairly new to the car/truck scene. Systems for boats, helos/planes have been around for a lot longer. If your looking at the market as a whole then Novak has only a small part of it only offering for 1/10 scale cars and trucks while the other companies offer for a wider range of rc vehicles.

Some companies that offer systems for cars/trucks that I know of:
Lehner
Hacker
Novak
Aveox
Kontronik
Mega
Graupner
Schulze
Plettenberg
Orion (someday will finish revising esc case and release system to public last I've heard)
Model Tech (don't know if they make them anymore)
Rum Runner Hobbies (I heard is designing there own, heard some bad things about them though, poor customer support)

Best place to buy a BL setup that I have found finedesignrc.com awesome warranty on their motors.

Novak does offer one thing the others do not though competitive prices. Novaks sensored system has a very linear throttle response never any cogging problems. The 200 watt 5800 just lacks grunt compared to Lehners 700 watt 5300.

My opinion is if Orion gets there act together and comes out with:
1. "Quality Product" (speed control/motor)
2. The multiple choice of motors turns
3. At or below Novak prices
Then other companies would have to follow suit, the logic in that is why spend 500 on a Hacker or Lehner setup when you could spend 300 on a equal/comparable Orion setup.

50% of all statistics are made up!

that ones probably made up too!

[mtrsprt]

Originally posted by professor_griff
The 200 watt 5800 just lacks grunt compared to Lehners 700 watt 5300.

You also have to think of your runtime, when your running a motor thats making over 3X the power output.

Thats a HUGE difference in power levels, how can it possibly be 3X the power in roughly the same size can? I wonder how each motor was tested??? Maybe different testing procedures will yeild mixed results??? Or is the Lehners THAT much more brawny in actuallity?

[professor_griff]

Thats a HUGE difference in power levels, how can it possibly be 3X the power in roughly the same size can?

That's comparing sensored and sensorless

From what I know Lehner systems are sensorless, these motors allow higher wattage and are faster, due to lack of signal delay from the sensors. Novak and Aveox offer sensored systems. I don't own that system (a friend of mine does) so I'm not quite sure on run time but it's still higher then comparable brushed systems. Runtime is a factor in purchasing but when you dump 200-500 on just a motor and speed control more then likely you'll have the money to buy more batteries. Brushless motors are hard to compare, different speed controls allow higher or lower amps, sensored motors run at lower watt and amps then sensorless systems, but have fewer cogging problems. There are pros and cons to each side but until your allowed to race competitivley with them does it really matter? Most people use them for bashing and worry free fun (bashing, such a bad term I don't bash my stuff but I have fun with it) it's nitro speed without the maintenace.

To tell you the truth I see alot of companies rate there motors differently: some by watts, some Kv rating, some compare to brushed by turn rating. The best way to find what you want is find reliable sources that are known for giving good info and pick there brain.

[DualBL]

i just have to say 2 short things...

Model Tech NEVER made motors. they made pretty little stickers to put onto schulze controllers and hacker motors

RRH has GREAT customer service, but they were made to look bad, when Lehner/BK would take over 6 months to repair controllers. I've had MORE than excellent service and support, and just wish that Lehner/BK didn't have to be the way they are....

-Nick

[professor_griff]

I was just giving examples of companies for people to look up and since they don't offer them anymore it doesn't matter. The rumrunner thing nothing against them but I've heard more negative then positive about them, but hey if you have good luck with them more power to you. Me personally they don't even offer up a phone number for customer support, emailing them takes a few days. I'll stick with finedessignrc. Hacker has the same problems you couldn't even even get thier sport controller for the longest time because they were revising the program again.

[End Overend]

It appears that there is some mis-information going on with this thread concerning power output between sensored and sensorless brushless motors.

The 200 watt 5800 just lacks grunt compared to Lehners 700 watt 5300.

This quote for one is not entirely true. It is true in the fact that the Novak makes approx. 200 watts at max power and that the Lehner 5300 can make approx. 700 watts at max power. The problem is that max power has nothing to do with it being sensored or sensorless.

It does have everything to do with the fact that the Novak is only rated for 6-7 cells where the Lehner can handle more than twice that number. Total cell count may be limited by sensored systems though.

There is no way that the Lehner is putting out 700 watts of power with 6 cells. I would venture to say that the Lehner is much closer to 200 watts on 6 cells.

How many consumers are ever going to put together 12 cell packs, unless they are running an E-Maxx or similar vehicle?

Most people that purchase the brushless systems are going to use a 6 cell pack 99% of the time and the simple reality is that most of your brushless systems are going to be fairly similar in overall power when running 6 cells. Some are going to be faster than others, but not light worlds faster as many try and state.

I run a Novak SS that I have been running in an Associated B3 (now it's in a Losi XXX-4) and I run with a bunch of friends on some very fast tracks. Most everybody has Novak SS's, but one guy has a Hacker 10T (used to have the 8T before it died on him). On the track there is little to no difference between the speeds of his Hacker and my Novak. Granted he's running a T3 and I was running a B3, but compared to the others running T3's with Novaks he didn't have any speed advantage over them either. All buggies/trucks are running on 6 cells.

Now granted he has the potential of going much faster with extra cells and we have not done top speed drag racing on the street, but overall on the same power source they have similar speeds.

As far as prices dropping, it's all a matter of competition. As long as the cheapest system on the market is in the $220.00 range (and is selling well) and nobody is challenging them with something cheaper the price will stay at that level. When somebody comes out with a competitive system to the Novak for $150.00 then you will see Novak drop the price of the Super Sport to $150.00 (though it will probably be re-named and have a few cosmetic changes) and they will introduce something with a bit more power to take it's place in the $220.00 range.

Anyway, just some random thoughts...

[k_sw31]

Originally posted by End Overend
It appears that there is some mis-information going on with this thread concerning power output between sensored and sensorless brushless motors.

To my knowledge, sensorless motors do have a power advantage over sensored designs. Sensorless motors have even more torque and rpms than sensored motors.

This is what I remember reading awhile ago. If something to that effect wasnt true, what would sensorless motors be manufactured?

[End Overend]

To my knowledge, sensorless motors do have a power advantage over sensored designs. Sensorless motors have even more torque and rpms than sensored motors.

This is what I remember reading awhile ago. If something to that effect wasnt true, what would sensorless motors be manufactured?

I'm not saying that sensored and sensorless motors have the same output, though I would say that they are closer than most people make it out to be on the same number of cells.

I can guarantee that a sensorless 540 sized brushless motor does not put out 500 more watts of power than a sensored brushless motor on the same number of cells.

I can think of several reasons to make a sensorless motor system rather than a seonsored system.

One may be that a sensored system has cell limitations on it that a sensorless system does not. That means that you can make the sensorless system more powerful by adding more than 6-7 cells. This cators to those where speed is the end all and there is no need to worry about the handeling of a car unless it's going in a straight line (generally a ST or buggy isn't going to handle all that great if it's carrying 12 cells).

Another reason may be that it's easier and generally more reliable to make a sensorless system. Sensored designs take more computing power, more wires, more parts, which means more things to go wrong. This takes more time and energy to engineer than a sensorless design. That makes it less cost effective to design.

My big problem is that people are stating max power ratings with out and regard to giving the whole truth behind the numbers. Power output should be measured based on power per volt not on the total max power.

This means that people are being misled into how much power certian motors put out.

[MikeMayberry]

Sensored and sensorless motor are only different in the way they comunicate with the ESC and vice versa. A sensorless motor has to be moving before the ESC knows what is going on, thus the slight jump at start up. The sensored motors and esc like the Novak are more precise at start up but none of which has anything to do with the power of the motor. That is determined by the rotor, stator, wire, winding, etc.

To clarify watt's to determain the watt input you take the current times the voltage. 7.2V @ 27.7A =200 watts. However, the output has to take the efficiency of the motor in mind therefor the watts out for a motor with 70% efficiency would be 140W.

There are so many factors with motors... what is the motors current at maximum efficiency? The higher the amperage the more watts the motor can put out. If you push the current too high over this the efficiency goes south quckly and the motor overheats.

While this program is for setting up brushless motors in aircraft it probably won't be long until something like it is available for cars. It is the coolest thing for knowing a starting point and what motor, battery, propeller, gearing combo will work the best. Check it out: http://brantuas.com/ezcalc/dma.asp

I'm currently using a Hacker C40 7 turn and have been very impressed with the performance. I also have many Hacker motors in my aircraft including one that uses 20 cells and pumps out over 1000 watts!

Mike.

[MikeMayberry]

Oh... when will prices fall? Once the chineese motors make it into the market. The cheapest aircraft brushless motors were $120 two years ago and now you can get them for $59. Give it a year or two. I think you will also see cheaper controllers from companies like castle creations in the near future too.

Mike.

[professor_griff]

A lot of good info but like what was said before and there are so many factors in comparing the motors.

There is no way that the Lehner is putting out 700 watts of power with 6 cells. I would venture to say that the Lehner is much closer to 200 watts on 6 cells.

At 55 amps for the lehner 5300 using the correct speed control at 7.2 volts it would put out 396 watts comparable to the Novaks 200 almost twice the power. It would take over 12 volts to hit the 700 watt mark. I apologize for not being more specific in my last post.

I still believe Orion will help be a deciding factor on lowing prices since they would be Novak's only real competition. It really all depends on what your LHS promotes on what you see in your area.

one guy has a Hacker 10T (used to have the 8T before it died on him). On the track there is little to no difference between the speeds of his Hacker and my Novak

so that makes total sense considering that there both advertised and rated as 10 turn. Lehner and Hacker have multiple lines of motors that are rated differently some kv rated and some rated by wind/turn it's hard to find any actual comparison charts and hard facts, so word of mouth and first hand knowledge is what I go by.

[JackANSI]

IMO the price of brushless will fall (to near the point of brushed motors) as soon as its easier to find a brushless motor than it is to find brushed motor.

But I doubt you'll ever see brushless motors as cheap as brushed motors just because with brushed motors they can still get money from you over the whole life span of the product. Brushless has a chance to not require much between the time you install it and the time you start looking for the next rung on the ladder.

Simple supply and demand.

The only thing that sucks about a brushless system: You really notice how much other stuff you end up breaking in a hard day of racing since you're not worried about the motor.

As far as which system is better, thats off-topic for this thread. But I personally only see a small difference in what you get when you look at all thats out there in a certain class. You've got your normal layout; entry-level, amateur, professional... In each there are several available systems, each is VERY comparable to the others. The best thing to do is to just look around and find someone using it just how you want to use it, then copy (and maybe add to it). With stuff this new you're really better off that way since no one has the perfect formula for it yet.

[Billage]

What is the highest turn brushless system available right now?

I'm looking to get one but only have 1500 mah batteries haha... can't buy new ones either or i wouldn't be able to afford a brushless.

[End Overend]

Your best bet would be the Novak Super Sport with the 4300 (or is it 4800) motor.

This should give you performance on par with a stock class motor and run times that are longer I would guess.

[EvaderRacer76]

should i buy a Novak SS tommorow for $215 or should i wait for the prices to go down? i'm not that eager, and i probably won't use it much 'till spring and summer?

[Craps]

Ran at 2 race tracks over the weekend, one track had 7 mod electric trucks with 2 running BL systems. My Hacker motor/ESC and the other was a Kontronik motor witha Hacker ESC. The other track I ran at had 6 mod electric trucks with 2 running BL systems, my Hacker stuff and the other was a Novak SS system, which won the race when my rear wheel nut stripped while leading by almost a lap on the field.

The other race I finished 2nd to a guy with a 12 turn brushed motor that runs all over the country. The other BL truck finished 4th with diff coming out of it.

The BL system trucks at both tracks used my Li-Po batteries in they're trucks for the mains (5 minutes). It looked funny to be the only electric trucks using the 3 minute warm up to practice using the track while the nickel battery trucks had to carry they're trucks to the starting grid area saving that nickel battery juice to race on.

I don't see the price dropping to soon as long as demand is as high as it is for this great equipment and there is more competition for Novak in the low end budget systems. Try to find a Hacker Master Comp ESC right now, you'll have to get on a waiting list due the huge demand for these.

Once you go Brushless and Li-Pos, you will never go back to brushes and nickels again! The future is here to have 20 to 30 minute electric mains to make the gas guys drool over! BL and Li-Pos are starting to catch on and with numbers, they can't be ignored!

[chuckwagon123]

Prices wont drop for a bit. I think they're value is on par with brushed motors with an esc. My guess is that Orion is not a stupid company and wont try a low cost pricing method for a product with growing demand. Like it was said above wait two years or so. Right around the time something new comes out. I belive that is how normaly turns out with new technology. After what is called in marketing the early adopters all have a BL systems it will take a lower price to capture the rest of the market. Orion wont under cut Novak to gain market share. The might offer a differnet type of BL system. No point in competing directly with a company so well established in a particular area.

[nascarfreak88]

supply and demand, my brotha, supply and demand................

i feel brushless will be the cheapest and at it's peak, when they come in a RTR.