A modest proposal: car length

[jrc]

Hi,

I sent this email to RCCA a while ago. I thought I'd post it here in case it hadn't reached them.


Dear RC Car Action,

As a longtime reader and hopeful participant of R/C Car Action’s World’s Fastest R/C Car Challenge, I was disheartened by the length rule change from 24” to 40.” However, I can understand the reasoning behind this, as the rule change will allow all sizes of R/C cars to participate. In light of these changes, I’d like to suggest dividing the length class in two, for cars below a length limit of around 27”-30” (roughly 1/8 scale size) to accommodate the 1/10 and 1/8 scale-sized cars, and another class from 27” to 40” for the larger, 1/5 to 1/4 scale-sized cars.

With two length classes -- below 27” and 27”- 40” -- a wide range of cars can compete against similarly sized brethren. Like-cars will compete with like-cars, rather than small 1/10 scales pitted against large lawnmower-powered 1/5-scale cars. It's one thing for a 1/5 scale to achieve 120 mph; it's an entirely different thing for a 1/10 scale to achieve that same speed. The smaller length class will discourage the mentality of "to go faster built it bigger," and promote the approach "to go faster, build it better." A new, smaller length class will encourage many builders to not merely cram more power into a larger chassis, but encourage many to instead push the limits within smaller sized R/C cars.

The 27” and under class will encourage the development of cars with more common R/C car components and powerplants, and will produce innovative cars that readers can more readily identify with. It will create a class of vehicles reminiscent of the “Insane Speed Runs” I enjoyed reading about in R/C Car Action years ago and will more equally match the type of vehicle used to set the current record, Cliff Lett's RC10L3O. I'd hate to see a marvelously designed 1/10 scale machine break Cliff Lett's existing record, only to walk away with nothing after being blown away by a behemoth 40" high-powered R/C go-kart.

Two length classes will eliminate the disparity between the large scale and average sized R/C cars, while still fostering the “anything goes” open spirit of the competition and allowing both large and small R/C cars to go for the record. It will allow the smaller cars to have their chance at glory away from the larger cars, and encourage a challenge of the existing record with similarly sized machines, instead of simply breaking the current record with overwhelmingly larger and powerful cars. Adding a smaller length class will promote innovation in the more common R/C car scales, and rather than the possible of domination of only those who build big, with bigger engines, bigger chassis', it will also reward those who refine cars at smaller sizes in the quest for the title of "World's Fastest."

I thank you for your time and I hope that you will take these suggestions into consideration, making this a better competition both for the participants and for the readers of R/C Car Action. I look forward to a contest that will not only bring out the best and fastest in large scale cars but one that also encourages the participation and rewards the achievements of smaller, average-sized R/C cars as well.


Sincerely,

James

[EddieWeeks]

Yeah.. All that is fine, but when its all over IF a 1/5 scale is the faster car...
Then that 5th scale should be named "Worlds fastest RC car" not
"Worlds fastest RC car between 27" and 40" "

Have as many classes as you want... but there can be only one
"Worlds fastest RC car"

Eddie Weeks
http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/car/car.html

[DaFF]

I agree with jrc.

Eddy, if you think there is only one "fastest RC car on the planet", then be ready to see longer cars, out of the RCCA challenge, to blow all the records done.

IMHO, we do need to give a chance to the ppl coming to this event with a car "close to conventional stuff we see everyday on the street" i.e. 1/10 car and such like the one from Cliff.

Only my 0.02 euro

DFF

[CENthasizer]

yeah i think there should be the 2 classes, instead of calling them above 27" and below 27" class, call them somethign unique, like big scale rc and small scale rc....or somthing like that. (i know all rc are smaller scale than a real car...).
But all in all the people who will complain about this size rule are those with 1/8th and 1/10th scale cars because we think that the bigger scale will win!
anyways it would be nice if all the people with 1/8th and 1/10th scales could think that all "our" work is worth something in the end, instead of knowing that bigger means faster!

[EddieWeeks]

Originally Posted by jrc

Hi,
I'd hate to see a marvelously designed 1/10 scale machine break Cliff Lett's existing record, only to walk away with nothing after being blown away by a behemoth 40" high-powered R/C go-kart.
Sincerely,
James

Your implying that there will not be any marvelously designed 1/5 scale
where with the two 5th scale cars being discused here, one has a turbine
and the other has a custom V8... There is more design work with those
two cars than anything else I have seen here. Most 1/10 scale car will use off the shelf parts, what is so marvelous with that ?

Eddie Weeks

[nitrohead5300]

What is marvelous about this competition is the creativity!!

[mgs9]

Originally Posted by PeterV

A big part of the WFRCCC's mission is to expose high-performance RC to a new audience. What better way to do that than with an event that can reach the mainstream media with a message like "RC cars exceeding 100mph!"? With that in mind, we wanted the rules to require cars that, while no doubt exotic and expensive, were still "toy sized". That way, when Joe Nonhobbyist sees the story, he might think "Wow, I had no idea toy cars could go that fast! I'm now going to visit Hobbytown and wipe out my Visa card". If the cars are huge, it's still a cool story, but the hobby may seem more like something for the ultra-hardcore, not anything for regular people.

But, upon reflection, it just didn't seem right to have a rule that instantly eliminates what many consider to be the ultimate RC machines. So welcome big cars...but I'm rooting for the "little" cars!

I think peter here ^^ has a point, Most peoplewould by an 10th,8th scale over a 5th or 6th scale

[Mike Keeney]

James, I thank you for speaking your mind, and I appreciate your position, but this isn't a contest for the fastest 1/10th or 1/5th scale car. RCCA has said over and over, it's about raw speed and radio control. They put a limit on length and a restriction on the propulsion method. Other than that, they're lookin fer speed.

I'm 46 years old and I'm the guy building the V8. Eddie is building the turbine powered car. Both of our cars will be 40". I don't know what Eddie thinks, but I've certainly read posts in this forum from other people with excellent ideas that could easily whup the snot out of may car, if everything goes right. The record will fall, but I couldn't say with any certainty I will be the ultimate winner because I spent the most money or had the most horsepower, or because my car was 40" long. Several people have speculated that the top speed will be somewhere around 180 mph. I think that's about right, but none of us will know for sure until race day.

I've said it many times here, this isn't a contest that will be won with off the shelf parts. That's the cold hard truth. But what will come from this contest is a leap in technology that will benefit RC'ers everywhere.

The bottom line is ingineuity and R&D will probably take the day. One thing you can be absolutely certain of is that getting to these speeds will be extremely difficult for everyone, and whether a car is 40" or 18" isn't going to be the determining factor.

Does this mean that a segment of the RC community will be left out of the fun? Unfortunately, the answer to that question is yes. But realistically, is it unfair that someone driving a stock Chevy wouldn't be competitive in a NASCAR race? Nope. That's just the way it works.

Just my 2¢.
Mike

[CENthasizer]

excelent post mike, the only question i have to you is this... how do u get the cents sign? that would be so much more helpful in the future on here... other than that i now see that it is for the speed and not the size... besides a 1/5th is heaveir and has more surface area then a 1/10th, which evens the tables really....
I will also prove you wrong and enter my stock part car to show you that i can get 180mph... ok...80mph...

[minitdriver]

This is all malarcy.Why not make two classes?Only one can be the worlds fastest!Guiness doesn't make exeptions like he was kid to grow longest fingernails or something.If you are using a "conventional" rc car then you don't plan on winning.Mike was spot on and ya its a good idea James but not in this scenario.Maybe you can make a national type speed even then take farther and have your own classes but this is about speed not who can go the fastest in a certain class.
Stay classy readers
Ken

[racinlosi]

Yes, I agree with Mike Keeney 100% also, but I want to know, how did you get that cents sign? lol

[mgs9]

if he has a Mac theres a key called option alt and you can change you sign 2¢ or you can copy paste his.

[Mike Keeney]

Originally Posted by CENthasizer

excelent post mike, the only question i have to you is this... how do u get the cents sign? that would be so much more helpful in the future on here... other than that i now see that it is for the speed and not the size... besides a 1/5th is heaveir and has more surface area then a 1/10th, which evens the tables really....
I will also prove you wrong and enter my stock part car to show you that i can get 180mph... ok...80mph...

There is a whole bunch of special signs available, if you know where to look. You can do a few fractions such as ¼, ½, ¾. You can make a degree sign 98°, you can even get the real × for dimensions. 1"×2" rather than 1"x2". It's easier to compare side by side, ×x.

The secret to these special characters, hold down the alt key on the keyboard and then enter 0162, you'll get the ¢ sign. To find out where all the special signs are, go to Start/Run and enter charmap. If that doesn't work, search your system for a file called charmap.exe. It's usually in Windows/System. When you get the program open choose the typestyle you want and all of the characters available for that font will appear. You might have to scroll down to see them all. Click on any of the characters you want and you will see the key combination assigned to that particular character.

Have fun!
Mike

[studysession]

Personally - I would think the 1/4 and 1/5 scale would need more room to get up to same speed as a 1/10 and 1/18 scale.

As for length - no big. I would have liked it to of staid with the 1/10 and 1/8 scale sizes. But anyone can make a car go fast. Size should not matter. I micro can out run most 1/10 scale touring cars in a straight. It is all about the power you put to the drive train.

Grant it, that is why my Micro is not running now also - I put to much power to the drive train and bew out the diff's.

[Potato]

Originally Posted by Mike Keeney

The bottom line is ingineuity and R&D will probably take the day. One thing you can be absolutely certain of is that getting to these speeds will be extremely difficult for everyone, and whether a car is 40" or 18" isn't going to be the determining factor.

A MAJOR factor in the contest is stability, which HEAVILY favors the larger cars. On a track built for full size cars, the larger R/C cars' will have the advantage. Bumps and dips that would unsettle a 18" car aren't even a problem for a 40" car. Comparing a 18" and a 40" car with the SAME top speed, the 40" has it way easier. It's much less of an engineering challenge to get that 40" car around the track without getting launched by a dip or bump.

Originally Posted by Mike Keeney

Does this mean that a segment of the RC community will be left out of the fun? Unfortunately, the answer to that question is yes.

IRONIC, isn't it? The segment of the RC community left out is the primary segment that buys R/C Car Action. It's not often you see 1/5 scale cars featured in RCCA, or sold in your average hobby shop for that matter.

[Potato]

Originally Posted by studysession

Personally - I would think the 1/4 and 1/5 scale would need more room to get up to same speed as a 1/10 and 1/18 scale.

As for length - no big. I would have liked it to of staid with the 1/10 and 1/8 scale sizes. But anyone can make a car go fast. Size should not matter. I micro can out run most 1/10 scale touring cars in a straight. It is all about the power you put to the drive train.

Grant it, that is why my Micro is not running now also - I put to much power to the drive train and bew out the diff's.

Keep in mind, this track is for FULL SIZE cars. While you're bouncing over the relatively large bumps and dips of the track with your 1/10 scale car, a 1/5 scale can have a much easier time putting the power to the ground. So while your 1/10 scale has a great power-to-weight ratio and all that, you're gonna have it much harder than the 1/5 scale just to put the power down. For example, you'll find it much easier to wipe out your micro than your 1/10 running at the same speed. Size DOES matter.

[Mike Keeney]

Originally Posted by Potato

A MAJOR factor in the contest is stability, which HEAVILY favors the larger cars. On a track built for full size cars, the larger R/C cars' will have the advantage. Bumps and dips that would unsettle a 18" car aren't even a problem for a 40" car. Comparing a 18" and a 40" car with the SAME top speed, the 40" has it way easier. It's much less of an engineering challenge to get that 40" car around the track without getting launched by a dip or bump.

Without a doubt, running over a cigarette butt would be more serious for a small car than a big one. But what does that have to do with anything? 18" or 40", you still gotta make it down the track. I might be able to handle a small bump better than you, but you don't have to get a hundred pound car up to speed either. You don't see me griping because the smaller cars have a huge weight advantage over my car.

Originally Posted by Potato

IRONIC, isn't it? The segment of the RC community left out is the primary segment that buys R/C Car Action. It's not often you see 1/5 scale cars featured in RCCA, or sold in your average hobby shop for that matter.

They're not left out, the contest is open to anyone, and there's absolutely no certainty that any car will win just because it's longer than another. A 40" car has just as many design/performance obstacles as all the other cars. Just because my car is 40" long doesn't mean it will be easy to hit 180 mph.

Cheers,
Mike

[Potato]

Originally Posted by Mike Keeney

Without a doubt, running over a cigarette butt would be more serious for a small car than a big one. But what does that have to do with anything? 18" or 40", you still gotta make it down the track. I might be able to handle a small bump better than you, but you don't have to get a hundred pound car up to speed either. You don't see me griping because the smaller cars have a huge weight advantage over my car.

What weight advantage? The contest is about top speed, not acceleration. Anyway, with the same power-to-weight ratio, the smaller car has less stability. With the same top speed, the smaller car has more difficulty keeping it in control. The cars you and I drive everyday are 3000 lb+, they don't have much difficulty getting up to 80 mph. A 100 lb, purpose built-for-speed car won't either. Go-Karts weighing maybe 300 lbs, for example, have no trouble getting up to speed. Even with the dead weight and drag of a 150 lb driver sitting in it, karts can reach over 120 mph. Stock off-the-shelf 1/5 scale cars have no trouble reaching 60 mph. All the while, larger vehicles benefit from the greater stability of their larger footprints.

It's not so simple with a car less than two feet long.

Originally Posted by Mike Keeney

They're not left out, the contest is open to anyone, and there's absolutely no certainty that any car will win just because it's longer than another. A 40" car has just as many design/performance obstacles as all the other cars. Just because my car is 40" long doesn't mean it will be easy to hit 180 mph.

I don't think anyone would be foolish enough to think that just because a car is 40" in length, it will automatically beat smaller cars. It's obvious that a poorly designed 40" car won't win. The point is, if you truly want to win against the toughest competition, if you truly want to maximize what's possible within the rules of the contest, you MUST USE THE ENTIRE LENGTH. It is obvious, smaller cars have less potential in terms of top speed. Plain and simple, the bigger and better you make the car, the better chance it will have of winning.

Isn't that what you're doing?

[Mike Keeney]

I still fail to see your logic. What does it matter if smaller cars are less stable? All that does is put more emphasis on the skill of the driver. You have to make it down the track, plain and simple. Any car going 180 mph is in the red zone. Doesn't matter how long it is or how much it weighs. Try going 150/180 mph in a real car. The pucker factor is just as high as it will be for RC drivers.

Originally Posted by Potato

It is obvious, smaller cars have less potential in terms of top speed. Plain and simple, the bigger and better you make the car, the better chance it will have of winning.

No disrespect intended, but your just wrong, plain and simple. You keep going back to 'size matters'. Fact of the matter is, it ain't over till the fat lady sings. We won't know who the winner is until race day. Until then this debate is moot. Long car, short car, heavy car, light car, electric car, nitro car, etc. won't matter to the speed meter.

Cheers,
Mike

[FLYBOY7]

i was all ready to hit this speed contest with a Hacker/li-po powered AE pan car... till the 40" rule showed up... now i'm staying at home, and i bet i'm not the only one staying at home because the 40" rule takes the "fun" out of it.....

personally, i think a high speed contest should be about who can get their r/c car that uses mostly off the shelf parts to be the fastest... not about who can shove a Hyabusa engine in a shifter cart...

[FLYBOY7]

and you rocket scientists out there.... if you think a larger scale car is not an advantage, you're crazy... i've run my mini-t at 30 mph and hit a cigarette butt, it's in a death roll..... if i hit a good size rock at 40 with my Revo you can hardly even notice... a longer wheelbase Always means more stability in a straight line... i'm sure you've guys seen the full size cars that go for speed records.... none of them are going for the shortes wheelbase possible.... LOL... quite the opposite...

[Potato]

Originally Posted by Mike Keeney

I still fail to see your logic. What does it matter if smaller cars are less stable? All that does is put more emphasis on the skill of the driver. You have to make it down the track, plain and simple. Any car going 180 mph is in the red zone. Doesn't matter how long it is or how much it weighs. Try going 150/180 mph in a real car. The pucker factor is just as high as it will be for RC drivers.

No amount of "skill of the driver" is going to keep (proportionally) severe surface irregularities from unsettling the car. There is only so much a driver can do. If a 1/10 scale hits a hole 1/2" in diameter 1/4" in depth, it's going to get launched, no matter how great the driver is. Yet, a 1/5 scale will drive right over this same hole.

While the skilled drivers of 1/10 scale cars struggle with traction and stability, often letting off the power to keep the car in control, the skilled drivers of the 1/5 scale will be able to put much more power to the ground and sustain higher speeds with less loss of control. I don't see how this is disputable. ??

Try going 80 mph in a road car, that's no sweat. Try that in a 1/5 scale, it's a little bit harder. Now try that in a 1/10, there's your "pucker factor." Try it in a 1/18 while you're at it. MUCH harder. While the cars are smaller, the bumps, dips, and holes in the road are all the same size.

Originally Posted by Mike Keeney

No disrespect intended, but your just wrong, plain and simple. You keep going back to 'size matters'. Fact of the matter is, it ain't over till the fat lady sings. We won't know who the winner is until race day. Until then this debate is moot. Long car, short car, heavy car, light car, electric car, nitro car, etc. won't matter to the speed meter.

Cheers,
Mike

Maybe for you, a builder of a 40" car, this debate is moot. But for those with much smaller machines and those who would like to see 1/10 and 1/8 compete COMPETITIVELY, this debate is far from over.

You're getting me all wrong, I never said a 40" was guaranteed to win. I have no crystal ball, but I do have an understanding of physics.

This contest is called "THE WORLD'S Fastest R/C Car," and I expect to see competition worthy of that title. If you want to see the best in the world compete for this record, if you want to see people push the limits of what's possible, THEY WILL MAKE THEIR CARS 40". The space is there, they'd be foolish not to make use of the entire length set out in the regulations.

If, as you assert, everything "balances out," and cars of all lengths have equal potential to win, then WHY HAVE A LENGTH RULE AT ALL? What's the point in restricting it to 40"? Let's eliminate length restriction altogether! By your logic, a 180 hp motorcycle engine in a go-kart chassis would have no advantage over a 1/10 scale car running a brushless motor. Why bother with this pesky length rule at all? After all, as you say, length doesn't matter one bit.

My point is, size does matter in a competition where designers seek to squeeze every last bit of power, efficiency, and stability out of their designs. IF in the unlikely chance that a smaller car wins, it's not because a smaller car has an inherent overall advantage over the larger cars, it's because the designers of the larger cars have failed to MAXIMIZE and CAPITALIZE on the inherent advantage in a longer, larger machine. It's because the competition has not done their job!

If you see something smaller than a 40" win, it will be obvious that this contest has not drawn the toughest competition there is.

In the end, if this is truly going to draw competition worthy of the contest's title, 1/10, 1/8 scale cars WILL BE ECLIPSED unless there is a class for them to run in.

[studysession]

I don't care what anyone says -

I think a 1/10 scale could still win. I have no clue which will, but I really think the smaller cars have a lot of potential at doing this.

[mgs9]

Persnaly I dought that its going to change back to 24 inches. Im glad they changed it because my car is going to exceed 24". Many peole have said this but it dose all pretty much come down to design and driving skills.

[racinlosi]

I personally beleive(I watch NASCAR alot) that these "smaller" cars are going to be just fine! I mean, come on! This track is going to be REALLY smooth. Cris got his car up to 111MPH at this track and drove it just fine, right?